Data Rosalina Match-Up Analysis (Obsolete & Succeeded)

[Nidtendofreak]

3-7 is just... no. Just no. Ike doesn't go 3-7 against anybody in the game. If you think Ike still plays the same way he did back in Brawl, you don't really know Ike I'm afraid.

Minimal experience in this MU for me, but to me it largely depends on if customs are on or not. If customs are on, Luma is going to be dead a lot. CQC lets Ike just tear through it in a lot of cases, and when hit Luma (and/or Rosalina) are sent flying up and a bit behind Ike; which is good for combing afterwards. Ike also gets better recovery options in either Aether Drive or Aether Wave along with CQC.

Rosalina gets the laser out of customs to be sure, which is an annoyance.

Without customs, Ike is still killing Luma fairly frequently due to massive range + damage, just not quite as easily as with CQC on. Auto canceling Fair + Bair along with very low landing lag Nair means Ike can play a very fast game when he wants to. Dtilt is great and is a comboing machine. We can use Dthrow or Uthrow to combo into Uair at kill percents. Perfect Pivot'd Ftilt from Ike is difficult to punish when you combine range + shield pushback + surprisingly quick cooldown. Dtilt is generally not easy to punish due to low cooldown, though doable.

Ike in general has an above average combo game. Nair -> Bair, Nair -> Dtilt -> Nair/Fair/Bair or Nair -> Dtilt -> Grab -> Dthrow -> Bair/Uair/Fair are things we can do. At higher percents you have to drop the starting Nair and/or Dtilt, but you can switch out Dthrow with Uthrow to continue the second combo's options at rather high percents. Paralyzing Counter lets us combo into a lot of different things depending on the situation when the Counter was triggered, but it also includes kill moves at kill percents. At a minimum you should be expecting a grab out of it if it hits, and Ike's pummel is in the top 5 for DPS, so anytime Ike grabs you the damage starts adding up quickly between the pummel and throw follow up.

Compared to back in Brawl, Ike plays grounded a lot more. Aerials are still very important, but we aren't throwing up Fair/Nair walls and just spacing with them anymore. Spacing/pressuring with tilts is utilized a lot. He's less pure defensive, more momentum based. We can play defensively, offensively, or footsies as needed.

Up close and personal, Ike will be sticking with Jab, Dtilt, and Grab most likely, though a sudden Bair isn't out of the realm of possibility. Ike's Jab is no longer the best in the game like it was in Brawl, but its still fairly good.

Ike has more kill power and disjointed range than Rosalina herself. Luma makes the range game a bit awkward to define as to who wins that. Rosalina is light and tall, so once Ike gets rage going its not difficult to have a move KO her, or even Dthrow for the KO if he grabs her on a platform or on a stage with a low ceiling. He does however have a lot of difficulty breaking out of juggles, so if Rosalina can get a good string going she can tack on early damage easily, and while Rosalina isn't on Ike's level of KO power its still fairly good.

Eruption can hit anybody grabbing the ledge if timed correctly due to how the ledge mechanics are programmed + Eruptions lingering frames, though the timing is rather difficult. Something to be more aware of than fearing: it can happen, just don't expect it to happen every time you go for the ledge. Eruption in general though is good for edgeguarding. If we can use Tempest instead, expect us to go off stage and use the massive windbox to push you away and out of recovery range. Tempest also gives Ike a minor recovery boost.

Without customs, Rosalina has a good chance of gimping Ike or at least tacking on additional damage as long as she's careful. If she's not, she'll get aethercide'd or Bair'd. With customs on, gimping Ike is more difficult. In either situation if Ike is grabbing the ledge you need to move far away from the stage edge. Ike can drop down and use Aether to poke above the stage in most situations. If its with Aether Drive, he can poke out to roughly 1/3 of BF and still make it back up by sliding up the stage.

---

tl;dr: probably slight advantage for Rosalina without customs, slight advantage or dead even for Ike with customs.

 

[9Tales]

60:40 Rosalina.

in spite of Ike's slow speed the facts that literally every single one of his attacks KOs Luma well, that he has substantial disjoint, and that Rosalina is super light and dies quickly to him evens things out more than you'd initially think. No doubt Rosalina has the advantage over all. But directly shielding most of Ike's attacks in RosaLuma form = a dead Luma or at minimum a separated Luma that can't help you retaliate.

 

[Nadeko Sengoku]

I think this matchup is 60:40 in Rosalina's Favor

The reason being most of Rosa's attacks come out faster and you can set up a wall vs Ike. In this match up I really like throwing Ike offstage and sending my children to murder him and break his knee's offstage. Oh and also Ike gets juggled so easily especially to Rosa, I've had secret service Luma take out Ike's really fast off of the top. The only thing I'd say that worries me about the matchup is how easily Ike can kill Luma if you aren't careful

Edit: Also if Ike uses his Quick-draw(default side special) a charged Luma will destroy Ike

 

[Oblivion129]

You guys have done MUs for other sword users so I won't have to cover that part. Rosalina's height makes it easier for Ike to land a Bair which should KO pretty early, but Ike will have to commit to landing a hit since Rosalina can play defensively this MU.

I think people are inclined to say Rosalina has an advantage because of tier placing alone, but I'm not sure about that. I'm more inclined to say it's even or one of them has a slight advantage, but nothing game-breaking.

 

[Trunks159]

Smash 3ds Nov 4 (Pre Patch) Ike Vs Rosalina:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAHbsMG2_FU

 

[Oblivion129]

Smash 3ds Nov 4 Ike Vs Rosalina:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAHbsMG2_FU

To all this, add in that this was pre-patch. After the patch, Ike received buffs and Rosalina received a slight nerf. But to be fair, Ryuga played better, imo.

 

[Ffamran]

Keitaro doesn't even main Rosalina... Did he main her back in the pre-patch days?

 

[Trunks159]

Keitaro doesn't even main Rosalina... Did he main her back in the pre-patch days?

Well he rode the bandwagon back then. He mains Diddy now...unsurprisingly.

 

[Mario766]

Keitaro doesn't even main Rosalina... Did he main her back in the pre-patch days?

I'm pretty sure he did.

That set is much more about stages than the actual match-up. Ryuga played a set to remember, yes, but Keitaro clearly didn't know Prism Tower and was very uncomfortable because of it.

 

[Nadeko Sengoku]

To all this, add in that this was pre-patch. After the patch, Ike received buffs and Rosalina received a slight nerf. But to be fair, Ryuga played better, imo.

To be fair Keitaro is not known for his Rosalina, no offense to him. This was when the game was very new and people didn't play the characters as well as they do now, therefore that video proves nothing at all.

 

[ChikoLad]

70:30

 

[Mario766]

70:30

Do explain.

I'm curious.

 

[Ffamran]

To be fair Keitaro is not known for his Rosalina, no offense to him. This was when the game was very new and people didn't play the characters as well as they do now, therefore that video proves nothing at all.

Note: This isn't directed to you, but in general:

Something like @_Rango_'s recent video of his Ike vs. r89r's Rosalina might be better even if it's online and both players SD'd at some point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIaJF6ASvns or this against spacepirate541's Rosalina: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuZN0B_poJs. And... I can't seem to find any other Rosalina vs. Ike videos.

The video from way back does prove that anyone can beat anyone, but how well they can beat that character depends on not just skill, but matchup as well. I mean, you could play as Pichu and beat Fox in Melee, but assuming equal skills at a high level, the Fox player is probably going to win while the Pichu player might win a couple of rounds due to good play at the time - basically, a good read - or an unfortunate mis-input or SD causing Fox to be at a disadvantage through a stock deficit or losing his last stock because of a mis-input or SD.

Assuming equal skill between Ryuga and Keitaro and assuming they knew enough about their characters wouldn't be right since one, Ryuga's an Ike main and therefore, would understand Ike more even if he was drastically different like what happened to Falco, Marth, or Bowser. Keitaro just played a newcomer who was never in the past games. Even in a situation of say, Daisy was a semi-clone of Peach and Keitaro or whoever played as her, it wouldn't be the same as playing Peach from Melee, Brawl, and SSB4. That's like playing Fox through the games and saying that Falco can be played the same. You can only say that Ryuga and Keitaro were at equal skill, but not at equal knowledge of matchup and character knowledge. For example, Keitaro kept getting hit by Ryuga's Aether going through the stage and I don't remember, but I don't think Keitaro juggled Ryuga a lot considering how powerful Uair is. Then there, the thing about pre-patch...

 

[ChikoLad]

Do explain.

I'm curious.

Literally all Rosalina has to do is wait. Ike is super punishable, and cannot effectively intercept Rosalina in the air at all, you can see anything he tries to pull from a mile away, and her aerial mobility is too good. What I often do is dance around above Ike. If he comes for me, I beat him easy. If he stays on the ground and tries to punish me with a Smash, Tilt, Aether, or Counter, well... he's not going to get me, I literally don't need to make a move until he does, because I can always weave around him and punish him. Lunar Landing is especially a big factor in that, I can literally punish him without suffering any landing lag and can follow up. Luma can also run circles around him in the right hands (I play differently to other Rosalina players, as well as the standard "keep Luma by you", I also practice moving Rosalina and Luma around as separate entities since I understand Luma's controls to a tee. I have done this for whole matches, including just today. It's a surprisingly under-developed playstyle in the community at large, because nobody wants to think about controlling two characters at once). Ike is also super easy to juggle for ages with U-air, he often can't escape before hitstun goes away. Also, we have just as much power as he does, but are way faster than him.

I would actually give the MU something as drastic as 85:15 in Rosalina's favour, but Ike does have a few saving graces:

- He does have formidable range

-Aether makes low gimping near the edge nearly impossible. If you want to gimp Ike, you have to stage spike him, or low gimp him further away from the stage. And even then, he can potentially drag you down with him with his Aether, if you are not fast enough. I generally don't think it's necessary to gimp him, but it is a less viable option, and it's something Rosalina is normally excellent at, so it does mean something.

-We can't afford to make silly mistakes at high percents, since he will launch us far. However, this is offset by the fact we have way more options and just control the flow of the battle entirely.

-His B-air is legitimately something we need to watch out for. It's his fastest and strongest aerial, and it's the one he will most likely try to KO us with. Unlike most other characters, Ike can get Rosalina with it at ground level, due to her tall frame.

However, I find these points nuisances as opposed to game changers. It just means we can't play rushdown or anything as much as normal. Rosalina will dominate him if she plays patiently though.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

If the Ike you're playing is super punishable, they're not a good Ike. They're playing him wrong. He's not abusing Fair/Bair which leaves nothing to punish. Good Ikes also use a lot of empty hops as they know people who don't know Ike think he's super readable.

Ike also is tied for 7th fastest aerial speed. Rosalina is tied for 24th. http://smashboards.com/threads/smas...s-and-values-now-with-raw-real-values.383217/ She ain't weaving around Ike, she loses the speed battle in the air along with the range battle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKujI0urZro Here is what a good Ike looks like from at least somewhat more recent. He's playing against Sonic. I don't think anybody is going to argue about Sonic > Rosalina in speed. Ike can keep up with Sonic when played correctly by abusing the combination of range and lack of lag in key moves (Its a neutral MU), and Ryo still wasn't really abusing Bair/Fair fully at that point in time.

I don't like going for MU numbers this early in the game but I'll restate this: nobody in the game goes 7-3 against Ike. The only character that can arguably be 65-35 is Sheik, even then its more likely 6-4 in Sheik's favour. If your MU experiences against an Ike makes you think its 7-3, you haven't faced a good Ike.

 

[Trunks159]

Literally all Rosalina has to do is wait. Ike is super punishable, and cannot effectively intercept Rosalina in the air at all, you can see anything he tries to pull from a mile away, and her aerial mobility is too good. What I often do is dance around above Ike. If he comes for me, I beat him easy. If he stays on the ground and tries to punish me with a Smash, Tilt, Aether, or Counter, well... he's not going to get me, I literally don't need to make a move until he does, because I can always weave around him and punish him. Lunar Landing is especially a big factor in that, I can literally punish him without suffering any landing lag and can follow up. Luma can also run circles around him in the right hands (I play differently to other Rosalina players, as well as the standard "keep Luma by you", I also practice moving Rosalina and Luma around as separate entities since I understand Luma's controls to a tee. I have done this for whole matches, including just today. It's a surprisingly under-developed playstyle in the community at large, because nobody wants to think about controlling two characters at once). Ike is also super easy to juggle for ages with U-air, he often can't escape before hitstun goes away. Also, we have just as much power as he does, but are way faster than him.

I would actually give the MU something as drastic as 85:15 in Rosalina's favour, but Ike does have a few saving graces:

- He does have formidable range

-Aether makes low gimping near the edge nearly impossible. If you want to gimp Ike, you have to stage spike him, or low gimp him further away from the stage. And even then, he can potentially drag you down with him with his Aether, if you are not fast enough. I generally don't think it's necessary to gimp him, but it is a less viable option, and it's something Rosalina is normally excellent at, so it does mean something.

-We can't afford to make silly mistakes at high percents, since he will launch us far. However, this is offset by the fact we have way more options and just control the flow of the battle entirely.

-His B-air is legitimately something we need to watch out for. It's his fastest and strongest aerial, and it's the one he will most likely try to KO us with. Unlike most other characters, Ike can get Rosalina with it at ground level, due to her tall frame.

However, I find these points nuisances as opposed to game changers. It just means we can't play rushdown or anything as much as normal. Rosalina will dominate him if she plays patiently though.

Sigh...an Ike using any of his smashes In the neutral is just a bad Ike, plain and simple.Its the same with aether.Ikes ftilt isn't as punishable as you think and down tilt is harly punishable. Ike isn't goind to reck you with tilts, smashes, aether, or counter. His jab, grab, nair, fair, and dtilt make up like 90% of his used moveset.

Which moves are punishable?

So you're saying that anyone approaching Rosalina just looses outright. If you sit and wait and just react, you are easy to space against. I dont have the time to counter every argument u made, sorry.

 

[Ffamran]

@ Nidtendofreak 's, this is probably the latest video of San's Ike: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siN2YWr_4ZI, if you're looking for an example to show how a high level Ike plays.

 

[Nadeko Sengoku]

Sigh...an Ike using any of his smashes In the neutral is just a bad Ike, plain and simple.Its the same with aether.Ikes ftilt isn't as punishable as you think and down tilt is harly punishable. Ike isn't goind to reck you with tilts, smashes, aether, or counter. His jab, grab, nair, fair, and dtilt make up like 90% of his used moveset.

Which moves are punishable?

So you're saying that anyone approaching Rosalina just looses outright. If you sit and wait and just react, you are easy to space against. I dont have the time to counter every argument u made, sorry.

Hopefully a high level Ike player goes against a high level Rosalina at EVO so we can see.

 

[ChikoLad]

If the Ike you're playing is super punishable, they're not a good Ike. They're playing him wrong. He's not abusing Fair/Bair which leaves nothing to punish. Good Ikes also use a lot of empty hops as they know people who don't know Ike think he's super readable.

Ike also is tied for 7th fastest aerial speed. Rosalina is tied for 24th. http://smashboards.com/threads/smas...s-and-values-now-with-raw-real-values.383217/ She ain't weaving around Ike, she loses the speed battle in the air along with the range battle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKujI0urZro Here is what a good Ike looks like from at least somewhat more recent. He's playing against Sonic. I don't think anybody is going to argue about Sonic > Rosalina in speed. Ike can keep up with Sonic when played correctly by abusing the combination of range and lack of lag in key moves (Its a neutral MU), and Ryo still wasn't really abusing Bair/Fair fully at that point in time.

I don't like going for MU numbers this early in the game but I'll restate this: nobody in the game goes 7-3 against Ike. The only character that can arguably be 65-35 is Sheik, even then its more likely 6-4 in Sheik's favour. If your MU experiences against an Ike makes you think its 7-3, you haven't faced a good Ike.

The thing you're forgetting about Rosalina is that her aerials last much longer, and have a ton of priority, plus Luma, plus the landing lag isn't much at all (and completely non-existant with Lunar Landing). Ike simply isn't going to be in the air that much against Rosalina unless he's being juggled, Rosalina dominates the air.

Also, Rosalina is actually faster than Sonic in horizontal aerial speed, and has much less landing lag than Sonic. Sonic is my second main.

If your MU experiences against an Ike makes you think its 7-3, you haven't faced a good Ike.

Also can we put a rule in the OP that dictates you can't use this phrase in relation to any character? Quite frankly, it contributes nothing and is based on assumptions, and I could easily argue that if you think the MU isn't at least 70-30, you haven't faced a good Rosalina (and this would actually be backed up claim on my end - you literally admitted you don't play much Ike OR Rosalina period, let alone the specific MU). It's a stupid back and forth argument that I am entirely sick of hearing in this thread, and is not useful in the slightest, only displays people's bloated pride in their fictional characters of choice.

It's also incredibly condescending, assuming the player you're talking to MUST be some low level scrub just because, GOD FORBID, they think they can dominate your favourite character! :O

 

[Nadeko Sengoku]

The thing you're forgetting about Rosalina is that her aerials last much longer, and have a ton of priority, plus Luma, plus the landing lag isn't much at all (and completely non-existant with Lunar Landing). Ike simply isn't going to be in the air that much against Rosalina unless he's being juggled, Rosalina dominates the air.

Also, Rosalina is actually faster than Sonic in horizontal aerial speed, and has much less landing lag than Sonic. Sonic is my second main.



Also can we put a rule in the OP that dictates you can't use this phrase in relation to any character? Quite frankly, it contributes nothing and is based on assumptions, and I could easily argue that if you think the MU isn't at least 70-30, you haven't faced a good Rosalina (and this would actually be backed up claim on my end - you literally admitted you don't play much Ike OR Rosalina period, let alone the specific MU). It's a stupid back and forth argument that I am entirely sick of hearing in this thread, and is not useful in the slightest, only displays people's bloated pride in their fictional characters of choice.

It's also incredibly condescending, assuming the player you're talking to MUST be some low level scrub just because, GOD FORBID, they think they can dominate your favourite character! :O

Ask Mario and Sonic guy to add that and tell him why

 

[ChikoLad]

Ask Mario and Sonic guy to add that and tell him why

I was sort of half joking, but it really is just something I figured people shouldn't stoop to so often. It's a total straw man and I figured people would be above that.

Or are the users of other character boards just that crappy all of the time?

 

[Ffamran]

The thing you're forgetting about Rosalina is that her aerials last much longer, and have a ton of priority, plus Luma, plus the landing lag isn't much at all (and completely non-existant with Lunar Landing). Ike simply isn't going to be in the air that much against Rosalina unless he's being juggled, Rosalina dominates the air.

Also, Rosalina is actually faster than Sonic in horizontal aerial speed, and has much less landing lag than Sonic. Sonic is my second main.

It's more of disjoints than priority; priority doesn't exist, but disjoints do. So, when say, Fox's Uair connects despite Captain Falcon's Dair touching him, it's because of Fox's tail being a disjoint. Swordsmen and swordswomen naturally have disjoints because about 70% to 90% of their moveset involves using a weapon, a disjointed attack while most characters use their limbs, jointed attacks that can hurt them if the hitbox doesn't connect or their limbs are out, but the hitbox is gone. I believe you can grab Falco much farther away if his Ftilt ends and his leg is still out.

Rosalina not only has disjoints on her aerials, they're all disjointed I believe, but she has Luma as well. Add in her Side and perhaps her Down Smash being disjointed. Also, I think her Jab, Utilt, Ftilt, and Dtilt are disjointed because of the galaxy thingies that come out when she attacks along with Jab using her wand and Utilt having the star thing... They're Launch Stars, right? Rosalina also is tall meaning her attacks are naturally longer in reach like how Falco and Luigi despite being slightly taller than Fox and Mario will slightly outrange them.

Here's the issue, although Rosalina has disjointed moves, it's not as disjointed as having a two-handed sword, Ragnell which I don't think is as disjointed as Link's freaking Master Sword having a damned horizontal hitbox with Dair or heaven forbid, Brawl Meta Knight's disjoints. Both characters have to space each well in this MU, especially Ike since aside from Jab, grab, Bair, Dtilt, and I guess Ftilt and Utilt, the rest of Ike's moves are slow in comparison to Rosalina which makes sense from a balancing perspective. Could you imagine Ike with Mario's frame data? That's OP as hell. Anyway, of those moves, Jab 1, Jab 2, and grab aren't disjointed and with grab armor out, Rosalina can just bop Ike back if he grabs at the wrong time.

What makes this MU easier for Ike than for Ganondorf is that Ike can attack without getting hurt and that Ike is much more mobile than Ganondorf. Adding onto them both being heavyweights and Ike seems to get the better deal at neutral, but at disadvantage, Ike's probably worse off since Bair hits behind and Nair doesn't come out until at least frame 10 while Ganondorf can hope for a frame 6 Uair which is 1 frame faster than Ike's Bair and covers Ganondorf's front, top, and back, or go for a frame 7 Nair. At the same time, Ike's Aether makes edgeguarding him difficult if you don't have a windbox move like Gust Cape or something like Pit's Guardian Orbitars. But it's predictable, even with Aether Dive making it more dangerous since Ike can be farther away and Ragnell is sent at an angle.

I can't say much about this MU because I'm not that good with either characters, especially Rosalina, but I can give info on what they can do or general mechanics like disjoints, super armor, etc.

Or are the users of other character boards just that crappy all of the time?

Implying the Falco boards exists.

 

[Nadeko Sengoku]

It's more of disjoints than priority; priority doesn't exist, but disjoints do. So, when say, Fox's Uair connects despite Captain Falcon's Dair touching him, it's because of Fox's tail being a disjoint. Swordsmen and swordswomen naturally have disjoints because about 70% to 90% of their moveset involves using a weapon, a disjointed attack while most characters use their limbs, jointed attacks that can hurt them if the hitbox doesn't connect or their limbs are out, but the hitbox is gone. I believe you can grab Falco much farther away if his Ftilt ends and his leg is still out.

Rosalina not only has disjoints on her aerials, they're all disjointed I believe, but she has Luma as well. Add in her Side and perhaps her Down Smash being disjointed. Also, I think her Jab, Utilt, Ftilt, and Dtilt are disjointed because of the galaxy thingies that come out when she attacks along with Jab using her wand and Utilt having the star thing... They're Launch Stars, right? Rosalina also is tall meaning her attacks are naturally longer in reach like how Falco and Luigi despite being slightly taller than Fox and Mario will slightly outrange them.

Here's the issue, although Rosalina has disjointed moves, it's not as disjointed as having a two-handed sword, Ragnell which I don't think is as disjointed as Link's freaking Master Sword having a damned horizontal hitbox with Dair or heaven forbid, Brawl Meta Knight's disjoints. Both characters have to space each well in this MU, especially Ike since aside from Jab, grab, Bair, Dtilt, and I guess Ftilt and Utilt, the rest of Ike's moves are slow in comparison to Rosalina which makes sense from a balancing perspective. Could you imagine Ike with Mario's frame data? That's OP as hell. Anyway, of those moves, Jab 1, Jab 2, and grab aren't disjointed and with grab armor out, Rosalina can just bop Ike back if he grabs at the wrong time.

What makes this MU easier for Ike than for Ganondorf is that Ike can attack without getting hurt and that Ike is much more mobile than Ganondorf. Adding onto them both being heavyweights and Ike seems to get the better deal at neutral, but at disadvantage, Ike's probably worse off since Bair hits behind and Nair doesn't come out until at least frame 10 while Ganondorf can hope for a frame 6 Uair which is 1 frame faster than Ike's Bair and covers Ganondorf's front, top, and back, or go for a frame 7 Nair. At the same time, Ike's Aether makes edgeguarding him difficult if you don't have a windbox move like Gust Cape or something like Pit's Guardian Orbitars. But it's predictable, even with Aether Dive making it more dangerous since Ike can be farther away and Ragnell is sent at an angle.

I can't say much about this MU because I'm not that good with either characters, especially Rosalina, but I can give info on what they can do or general mechanics like disjoints, super armor, etc.


Implying the Falco boards exists.

Thank you for your input and do you consider Luma as a weapon?(just curious) Falco boards dont exist? 0.0

 

[Trunks159]

The thing you're forgetting about Rosalina is that her aerials last much longer, and have a ton of priority, plus Luma, plus the landing lag isn't much at all (and completely non-existant with Lunar Landing). Ike simply isn't going to be in the air that much against Rosalina unless he's being juggled, Rosalina dominates the air.

Also, Rosalina is actually faster than Sonic in horizontal aerial speed, and has much less landing lag than Sonic. Sonic is my second main.



Also can we put a rule in the OP that dictates you can't use this phrase in relation to any character? Quite frankly, it contributes nothing and is based on assumptions, and I could easily argue that if you think the MU isn't at least 70-30, you haven't faced a good Rosalina (and this would actually be backed up claim on my end - you literally admitted you don't play much Ike OR Rosalina period, let alone the specific MU). It's a stupid back and forth argument that I am entirely sick of hearing in this thread, and is not useful in the slightest, only displays people's bloated pride in their fictional characters of choice.

It's also incredibly condescending, assuming the player you're talking to MUST be some low level scrub just because, GOD FORBID, they think they can dominate your favourite character! :O

So Rosalina has priority over Ikes sword?

Perhaps you shouldn't use the ratios to create such controversy. For instance, you shouldnt just come and say "70:30, Rosalina wins". You should just say what things Rosalina can do to exploit ike and vise versa. Dont say things like Rosalina walks all over Ike, since it has yet to be decided. If you dont want the crazy back and forth arguements, then don't bait them.

This is all in good spirit, don't take anything I said too personally.

 

[ChikoLad]

Just so people know my background with Ike - my brother mains him and did so in Brawl too, and I play around with him enough to understand him, and have done so since Brawl. I know how he functions, what he can do, and how he changed from Brawl and after 1.0.4 on 3DS, but that's somewhat irrelevant - again, as I keep emphasising, I don't play like a typical Rosalina player all of the time, I have multiple paradigms I switch between on the fly to try to make the most of her and Luma's presence.

For example, like I mentioned earlier - Luma really isn't as easy to take out as you people make him out to be. If Rosalina keeps him by her side and lets herself have "close calls" a lot, then absolutely. But you know, you can separate Luma. Luma's "dash" speed is like, twice as fast as Rosalina's. He can slip by even faster attacks if you know how to control him, so Ike is on problem. Not mention if you master the art of using Rosalina and Luma as a tag team (e.g. Luma attacks, then moves back as Rosalina moves forward with her own attack, etc, etc), Luma actually becomes really difficult to get rid of for any character in the game.

So Rosalina has priority over Ikes sword?

Perhaps you shouldn't use the ratios to create such controversy. For instance, you shouldnt just come and say "70:30, Rosalina wins". You should just say what things Rosalina can do to exploit ike and vise versa. Dont say things like Rosalina walks all over Ike, since it has yet to be decided. If you dont want the crazy back and forth arguements, then don't bait them.

This is all in good spirit, don't take anything I said too personally.

I didn't bait anything. I gave my vote (because that's all that matters in the end - as I explained to the Palutena players, with the way this thread is set up, nobody is going to change their initial ratio no matter how passionately people debate for their favourite characters), nothing more to it. I don't use my votes to create controversy. It's other people's problem if they don't like what I vote on.

The reason I initially came in with a simple "70:30", was because the MU discussions have become really tiresome here - they often devolve into being more about the players of the other character being overly prideful of their character, often spouting things that are completely irrelevant to any actual discussion of the MU, or simply throwing info at me as if I didn't take it into consideration in my vote (pretty much everything you Ike mains are throwing at me here, for example, I had accounted for).

I'm frankly bored of it and I don't find it productive at all. So in hindsight, I feel like the MOST productive thing I can do is simply vote, and nothing more. Wastes less of my time, and makes the same impact on the final MU score.

 

[Nadeko Sengoku]

Just so people know my background with Ike - my brother mains him and did so in Brawl too, and I play around with him enough to understand him, and have done so since Brawl. I know how he functions, what he can do, and how he changed from Brawl and after 1.0.4 on 3DS, but that's somewhat irrelevant - again, as I keep emphasising, I don't play like a typical Rosalina player all of the time, I have multiple paradigms I switch between on the fly to try to make the most of her and Luma's presence.

For example, like I mentioned earlier - Luma really isn't as easy to take out as you people make him out to be. If Rosalina keeps him by her side and lets herself have "close calls" a lot, then absolutely. But you know, you can separate Luma. Luma's "dash" speed is like, twice as fast as Rosalina's. He can slip by even faster attacks if you know how to control him, so Ike is on problem. Not mention if you master the art of using Rosalina and Luma as a tag team (e.g. Luma attacks, then moves back as Rosalina moves forward with her own attack, etc, etc), Luma actually becomes really difficult to get rid of for any character in the game.

Now I'm actually really curious to see your Rosalina and Luma style, it sounds fantastic and maybe I can learn a few things from you, if what you say is true.

 

[ChikoLad]

Now I'm actually really curious to see your Rosalina and Luma style, it sounds fantastic and maybe I can learn a few things from you, if what you say is true.

I slaughtered my friend's Lucina in that fashion earlier today, and saved a replay. Once I get my recording device back, it's definitely one I will upload.

Do keep in mind that I do not consider myself the best Rosalina player in the world or anything. Being in college, I don't get a lot of time to play Smash, and all of my practice is online or against CPUs and Amiibos. I have a lot of bad habits, and I still have not mastered all ATs, not even Lunar Landing. But I have mainly been practicing fighting with Luma as a partner, not as a disjoint.

 

[Nadeko Sengoku]

I slaughtered my friend's Lucina in that fashion earlier today, and saved a replay. Once I get my recording device back, it's definitely one I will upload.

Do keep in mind that I do not consider myself the best Rosalina player in the world or anything. Being in college, I don't get a lot of time to play Smash, and all of my practice is online or against CPUs and Amiibos. I have a lot of bad habits, and I still have not mastered all ATs, not even Lunar Landing. But I have mainly been practicing fighting with Luma as a partner, not as a disjoint.

I'm looking forward to it, it sounds really cool. I'm one of those typical Rosalina players that likes to keep Luma next to me most of the time(unless customs are on).

 

[Ffamran]

Thank you for your input and do you consider Luma as a weapon?(just curious) Falco boards dont exist? 0.0

To me, Luma's less of a weapon like the Pikmin and more of a "semi-character" rather than a partner like Nana to Popo or a party member like the Pokémon Trainer in Brawl having 3 characters fighting together, but separately. Pikmin allow Olimar to use pretty much half his entire moveset and are extensions of him like how Palutena's staff and shield are extensions of her. Luma's more of a little buddy who Rosalina can fight with or without. Together, they can do a lot even at different positions, but without Luma, Rosalina can't do the wacky things she can do like kill DK on Halberd at 22% with Luma's Uair after juggling Will's DK at the start of the match.

So Rosalina has priority over Ikes sword?

Priority is weird in a sense that one, it's not individuated as people think. So, there isn't this sliding scale of priority of say, Mario's aerials outprioritizes everything. That's not true. It's as the wiki states, "high" and "low" where 8% of damage determines an attack's priority. So, say X's Ftilt does 8% while Y's Ftilt does 15% and they both hit each other at the same time. It'll clank unless for some reason Y's Ftilt is transcendent. When I said priority didn't exist, I meant that priority of saying so and so's moves out prioritizes so and so's moves just because is not true, but regular priority due to damage exists. So, you can't clank Ganondorf's Warlock Punch with a Jab for example. Why'd you want to do that is beyond me... Just grab the old man or get behind him and charge up a Side Smash... For more detailed and more accurate info on priority: http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Priority.

Transcendent priority is when a move just does not care about anything. It'll override practically everything except for environmental stuff or an active hurtbox like Luma. For example, Fox's lasers can't be clanked and they'll go through Link's arrows. It's not that bad considering Fox's default Blaster does 1% from afar and 2%, then 3% up close. The only thing stopping them are shields, reflectors, and passive shields like Link's Hylian Shield. Greninja's fully charged Water Shuriken has transcendent priority which means never ever try to clank it out or do something to "cancel" it. The best defenses against a fully charged Water Shuriken is to avoid it, just block it until it's away from your character's hurtbox, or reflect it. Now, Luigi's Fireball and Ness's PK Thunder can be clanked which means that attacking PK Thunder to cancel it out is probably better than trying to weave around and air dodging since Ness can make PKT1 circle around.

Disjoints are in a sense that a move reaches someone before their move does, but the move doesn't look like it does. For one, space Captain Falcon and Ganondorf's Side Smashes. You'll notice that they have slightly more range than the move looks like it does. I think Ganondorf's Dtilt is disjointed too and Falco's Dtilt is definitely disjointed since it has slightly less range than Ftilt despite looking like it has even less since Falco's tail feathers aren't that long compared to Fox's tail. More on hitboxes and disjoints here: http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Hitbox.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

(and this would actually be backed up claim on my end - you literally admitted you don't play much Ike OR Rosalina period, let alone the specific MU).

You clearly haven't been reading my posts well then. I use Ike. He's the only character I use. Same with him back in Brawl. I won a tournament with him in fact in SSB4.

Rosalina having longer lasting aerials? You haven't looked at Ike's Nair or Uair much have you, particularly the former? Both last long enough to outlast airdodges.

And ya, I'm a bit scrappy/tired. I dealt with the majority of the character boards being completely stupid back in Brawl with everyone thinking their character beat Ike 7-3 (only MK did). And now in SSB4 in almost every MU discussion I see "Ike's slow, can't combo, lost killing power and range, 7-3". Its repeating itself and I'm already sick of it. The only one that has gone well is the Marth one.

Rosalina does not beat Ike like MK in Brawl beat Ike. MK in Brawl was technically beatable but Ike had to be basically flawless. That's what a 7-3 MU is. Ike does not have a single MU in SSB4 that's anywhere remotely close to that level of difficulty. I would know, I've experienced that MU back in Brawl. That was a freaking nightmare.

And frankly, I really can say that most Ikes are bad. Most Ikes play like its Brawl still, which gets you completely stomped because he no longer works well that way. A2Z0NG commented when he first started trying out Ike that Ike is one of the hardest characters to transition from between games (paraphrasing a bit), and its fairly true. That's also why I said there's only really 3 good Ikes atm. Because that's also largely true, its too new into SSB4's lifespan. Not a lot of people were willing to try Ike right off the bat, and if they did they didn't try him again after the patch which heavily buffed him. On top of that, those 3 good Ikes are mostly in areas with very little streaming/video uploading so not many people are drawn to try him out.

 

[Trunks159]

@ ChikoLad
A. Are you saying you are any less subjective than another? I feel like you form an opinion, and you see counter points, but stick with your opinion no matter what, no matter how much evidence is shoved at you. I recall you saying something about someone being condescending, and yet you are being condecending to other players.

B. A vote...is not a good system. The matchup threads purpose is not to see who wins the matchup, but to determine how the matchup should be played. A vote means absolutely nothing. In order to make it as least opinionated as possible, we should do what I just said.

I guess Ill return to the discussion now.

 

[Mario766]

There's one thing to just put out a 7:3 and walk away.

There's another to put out a 7:3 then when called on you pull out incorrect information.

You talk about punishing Ike's moves, what exactly is punishable on Ike?

Jab 3 on shield, smashes and non-AC/non-spaced aerials. QD on shield, Aether on-stage and Counter.

F-air and back air both auto cancel on short hop, so they are safe while spaced. Ike can space an f-air right at Luma and hit him with safety and smack Luma away. This will send it off the stage at a decent amount of space. Safe, reliable methods of sending off Luma, that's Ike's best weapon in the match-up.

Everyone says Rosalina is faster in attacks, which is true...but not by much. Removing Smashes from the equation...

Rosalina wins by pretty much 2 frames. TWO. FRAMES.

You know how much 2 frames matters? Not very, unless you're in a spamming fight between the moves. Her Nair starts behind her, so it doesn't cover the the hitbox of Ike's F-Air, N-Air or B-Air that fast. Rosalina's F-Air is one frame faster than Ike's. You talk about being safe on landing? Ike has auto cancelled aerials, almost three of them. Ike's jab is also frame 4, so it's decently quick for the amount of knockback and damage it does. N-air also combos into jab or grab. Ike can back throw without getting hit by Luma, but his main combo tools (Down throw) Isn't really doable because Luma will hit Ike out of it.

Does Rosalina win the match-up? Yes. But 7:3? I think you don't know what 7:3 means.

 

[ChikoLad]

@ ChikoLad
A. Are you saying you are any less subjective than another? I feel like you form an opinion, and you see counter points, but stick with your opinion no matter what, no matter how much evidence is shoved at you. I recall you saying something about someone being condescending, and yet you are being condecending to other players.

B. A vote...is not a good system. The matchup threads purpose is not to see who wins the matchup, but to determine how the matchup should be played. A vote means absolutely nothing. In order to make it as least opinionated as possible, we should do what I just said.

I guess Ill return to the discussion now.

No, I'm saying the info being shoved in my case is info I already accounted for in my original vote.

Also, I totally agree on the voting system being less than ideal. That's not an issue to be taken up with me.

 

[Mario766]

Next you're gonna tell me is that Puppyluv's post is 100 percent accurate.

 

[Oblivion129]

MU discussions have become really tiresome here - they often devolve into being more about the players of the other character being overly prideful of their character, often spouting things that are completely irrelevant to any actual discussion of the MU

I can understand this, and I agree to an extent. Ike mains, though, know that their character isn't the best or S tier. It should be close to the Marth MU.

To be fair Keitaro is not known for his Rosalina, no offense to him. This was when the game was very new and people didn't play the characters as well as they do now, therefore that video proves nothing at all.

You're right that it's an old video and Keitaro isn't really the best Rosalina, but Ike received buffs and has also improved in style, so I don't think either character has a big advantage over the other. Maybe Rosalina wins 55-45 but nothing too big. Rosalina isn't well known for dominating sword users (and has a disadvantage against MK, imo, but that's for another week).

 

[ChikoLad]

Next you're gonna tell me is that Puppyluv's post is 100 percent accurate.

Thanks for proving my point in people getting overly prideful and spouting irrelevant nonsense. Guess Ike mains really aren't any better than anyone else.

You guys aren't changing my rating. I know what Ike can do. It's still 70:30 in my eyes.

 

[Quickhero]

I have no idea why you guys are having a continued conversation with someone that refuses to change his mind. Just focus on something else or wait until someone with a more open mind is willing to arrive, you all are just wasting your energy.

It is a shame that Ike is so poorly received by so many other people though, and it really does show that if Ike didn't require a different mind-set entirely going from Brawl - Smash 4 that Ike would be received a lot better as there would be more Ike's that abuse his combo game and his almost lagless aerials.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I pretty much know that Ike should not be underestimated. Sure he may be on the slow side, and his sword attacks may not be that fast, but that long reach that he has is something that all Rosalina users need to keep in mind. Remember, Ike "can" easily KO Rosalina before her current damage even hits the 100% mark, so Rosalina has to be very careful that Ike doesn't deliver a strong hit on her, let alone, her Luma partner.

Anyway, I do respect sonicbrawler182's ratio input, since that's how he sees the match-up. But in the end, what truly matters is the overall average that I get for adding up all the ratio inputs that the other users made.

 

[Trunks159]

You're right @ Quickhero though being underestimated isn't a bad thing.

Way to play vs Ike: ike is a fundamental based character. You must be extremely disciplined with your spacing, shielding, reads and reactions.

 

[TriTails]

I am sorryif I am interrupting anything buuttt....

Weegee boards are discussing Rosalina MU this-a-week!
http://smashboards.com/threads/match-up-week-1-rosalina.395203/

If you guys are willing to, be sure to launch over to our thread and show us your awesome galaxy power!

And also, pls don't bring SSB Luma. Average Luma is fine, but just not SSB Luma. I'm begging you here.