Berserker.
:^)
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Discuss the Rosalina match up here
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This video is really good at explaining the basics.Obligatory video:
You have to delay it--I don't think jab combo works unless delayed? I can't remember.
Yes. I've heard of this. I remember in one match when (name search dodging activated) when nairu used Zelda's d-tilt to stop Ke1tar0's Rosalina from ledge snapping with her recovery. Did it about 4(?) times in a row. It was hilarious. I'm probably going to experiment with this.--A commentator in the video Berserker01 posted said that she has a few frames before you snaps to the edge. Maybe standing at the edge, waiting for her, and then using air slash is a good option. I have not tested this, though.
Well, Air Slash goes low, giving it a sort of scoop. It has a much easier time than D-Smash at striking opponents who are snapped onto the ledge without invincibility. Also, it is quicker on start up, at 10 frames rather than 18. It is great at killing, too.If there's a move in Shulk's kit that can catch an opponent in their one frame ledge snap vulnerability, my money's on down smash.
Haven't actually had any Shulk's use that against me, but I've been obliterated by Sonic's down smash more than a few times, so it should be even easier for Shulk.
I think only the 3rd hit of dsmash would hit them, I'd put my money on an angled downward fsmash.If there's a move in Shulk's kit that can catch an opponent in their one frame ledge snap vulnerability, my money's on down smash.
Haven't actually had any Shulk's use that against me, but I've been obliterated by Sonic's down smash more than a few times, so it should be even easier for Shulk.
be careful about that though, our Up air is incredibly fast and out Nair and Fair has awkward hitboxes and helps us recover slightly besides having a ton of hitboxes. We aren't going to be surprised by you jumping off the ledge, as below the stage is a place we're really comfortable with, and stages with a slope recovery will be really easy for us to bounce KO you.I'd go offstage for the kill. Her up b doesn't hurt us so I'd go for the fair. If she tries to recover low (which is what I want to happen) I RAR and attempt to stage spike her with the fair while she recovers.
much better and more concise, especially about the Shield. We'll be more likely to treat you like Ganon or Bowser in Sheild, simply because of the weight, when in truth Shulk will act nothing like them. Just be wary of how fast our recovery is, even if it doesn't have a hitbox, timing the hit takes a lot of practice.Decided to tackle the match up except I'll be more in depth this time. Shulk's POV as always
Score: +0 (Even)
I'm going to discuss this by sections. First, I'll tackle the Luma mechanic, then I'll tackle what to avoid, then I'll tackle Solo Rosalina. I won't be covering recovering back on stage with Shulk since that's been explained already (Translation: I'm a lazy bum )
Luma
What Shulk wants to do at neutral is to take luma out of play. Luckily, he has the tools to actually perform this task very well (He's one of the best at doing the job). His disjoint (being the longest in the game) allows him to safely swat luma from a distance. His arts also manipulate the way he deals with luma. Speed art allows him to move back and forth with his great air mobility while f-airing, or n-airing the Luma. This is a much safer method of dealing with luma since you have the ability to easily retreat. Buster art allows him to quickly take out Luma thanks to its massive damage output. Additionally, buster also allows his attacks to be safe on shield so don't fear if you manage to hit luma while whacking on a shielded Rosalina (Unless she powershielded it). Smash art sort of cuts the slack of having to take down the health of luma since it increases knockback growth. Take note that Smash art will only deal significant knockback once luma's HP has been decreased by a certain amount
Regardless of which art Shulk is using, you'll be using f-air or n-air against Luma. N-air has shorter range that f-air but tipping it will deal more damage. F-air has slightly longer range and it comes out faster at Shulk's front. N-air is safer than f-air due to its low landing lag (12 frames) but f-air is more likely to hit both Rosalina and Luma. With speed, you can perform a retreating f-air and n-air to make them safe on shield. With buster, you need to FF F-air to make it safe. As for n-air, you either tip with it or FF the base hit to make it safe. Smash art is basically unsafe on shield no matter what you do but the main purpose of Smash art is to knock Luma off stage. At least you won't take more damage if you get hit (but you're easier to KO). You can go for b-air but make sure you tip it on Luma instead of landing it on both Rosalina and Luma. Chances are that the Rosalina player will powershield it easily since it has 18 frames of start up. Take note that only the FRONTAL hitbox appears at frame 18 so that back hitbox comes out much later. Using b-air is fine when Rosalina actually does something. If you see her use star bits, jab, f-tilt, or basically anything, you can use b-air's long range to punish both Rosalina and Luma simultaneously from a distance
What to avoid
What you want to AVOID like a plague is getting juggled by Rosalina. Shulk can't deal with juggling very well unless the said Shulk player has already gotten the timing of MALLC down and can FF Air dodge and cancel the landing lag via Monado art activation BUT let's disregard MALLC for now since it has yet to have a lot of exposure outside of Japan (9B <3). The best way to avoid getting into situations like this often are to maintain your space between Rosalina, Luma and yourself AND to never stay above Rosalina. So why shouldn't Shulk stay above Rosalina? First off, u-smash. Self-explanatory. Has invincibility and hits like a truck. One wrong move while you're above Rosalina, you're either dead or you're at a disadvantaged state since you're likely to still be above Rosalina which allows her to juggle Shulk with that other move that no one likes. Ever. Rosalina's u-air. You can't contest it with any of Shulk's attacks. Countering it won't work almost ALL the time. Also, it KO's at low percentages if you're near the vertical blast zone so take note of that
Solo Rosalina
Aaaah... Alright, there are a lot of things to take note of. First, Rosalina loses a lot of her options and she effectively loses 2 specials once Luma is out of the picture. She's forced to play defensively. Although her defense is still pretty good, it's not as outstanding as it was with luma helping her. At this point, Rosalinas are going to be playing REALLY defensively at this situation. How do you respond? With careful aggressive play. Any art except shield will work well once you KO'd Luma but if there's any art that Rosalina would dislike, it's speed art. That dash speed and aerial mobility becomes an amazing asset in bypassing Rosalina's zone. You can also opt for buster but approaching Rosalina will also prove to be not difficult but tricky. The thing with buster is that at neutral, you're always at mid-range. If you actually want to dish out a lot of damage, you'll need to get up close. The best way to transition into close range is to close in with FF N-air. Once you've landed that, go nuts. N-air to f-tilt deals 28% damage. N-air to grab allows for set ups into f-air or n-air or b-air for a lot of damage. Smash? Well, use it to kill. Boom. Not much to say about it. Jump art is basically like speed except you're at mid-air most of the time but you're going to have to mix up your options with jump art (Tomahawk then grab, empty hops, etc). Rosalina can handle aerial approaches very well thanks to her amazing up-game.
What I'm about to say also applies with luma in play btw but prepare to shield a lot because Rosalina's hitboxes last long. This is why I said careful aggressive play. Solo Rosalina's defense is still solid but you can definitely bypass it if you respect her hitboxes more. At speed art (no, actually at any form or art you're using but it's much better at speed so...), remember that you can dash to shield. This allows you to be more campy or bait-oriented with Shulk since it helps in halting your "approach."
It all comes down to being smart at approaching. She still has some attacks that demand respect but regardless, you can definitely and easily tip the match to your favor with luma out of the picture since Shulk definitely has the tools to rush down Solo Rosalina. It also helps that Shulk has a fairly easy time handling Luma. "Once Rosalina loses luma, make her feel that she's at a disadvantage"
Rosalina's off-stage! What now?
Rosalina's recovery doesn't have a hitbox so you can actually go ahead and swat her with f-air or b-air. You can also go for d-air but the timing is too strict. You can either go off-stage and edgeguard her with jump or smash art OR use air slash or a downward angled f-smash against Rosa's one frame ledge snap vulnerability. Any of the two work but getting f-smash requires you to use it quite early. Air slash is a lot faster since it comes out at frame 10 (f-smash comes out at frame 14) so you'll have an easier time with air slash
Whelp, you're getting juggled or you're at a disadvantage. What now?
This is where shield and jump become more important. Particularly, not a lot of smashers know the secret behind shield art. Thanks to the increased defense which allows Shulk to take ~33% less damage, and thanks to his increased weight, the hitsun he receives from any of Rosalina's attacks at mid to 0% is really small. This actually allows you to escape juggles since you can act out quickly off from hitsun.
You can also switch to jump to get out of juggles because jump height+air mobility. Only problem is that if you don't act out quickly, you'll get juggled even more because jump increases your falling speed so be quick on your toes
~~~~
TLDR : Step up your shield game, play at mid-range against both Rosaluma, and SoRo. Take advantage of your disjoint, handle the luma first, then take care of Rosalina. Approach smartly and bait Rosalina. Also, remember you have them arts to back you up at certain situations
TLDR 2 : Use against Rosalina (just kidding)
If we DO wanna talk about MAALC, could a Fair>lag cancel>Ftilt get rid of Luma safely? I imagine if Rosalina shields, she gets pushed back while we do this so it might be safe for us.Let's try to disregard the idea of using MALLC for now... Unless you guys want to theorize about it. Do what you want. I guess
Made my analysis already.Sorry for bumping this, but Rosalina is analyzing Shulk at her match-up analysis thread right now. Shulk's discussion period will last until the end of 5/5, so if you have anything to contribute, this would be a good time to discuss the post 1.0.6 changes that the match-up may have received.
You weren't really clear with whose favor you put it on though :xMade my analysis already.
Urgh...it's really hard to tell.You weren't really clear with whose favor you put it on though :x
Are you convinced enough to change it to 50:50?
He has the monado activated almost 100% of the time thoughUrgh...it's really hard to tell.
But I think Shulk's horizontal movement are poorer without monado...so monado is the key to made this MU vary. However, I still think Rosalina has a slight advantage.
slow attacks? I know his attacks have range and power, but it's so slow...He has the monado activated almost 100% of the time though
Your gonna have to give a better reason than "horizontal movement" because that's solved by jump or speed and even then, his air speed is the 17th best in the game which isn't bad so
Slow attacks are generally compensated by range. He's a spacing character by nature so his optimal playstyle is to play from a zone where in opponents won't beat him to the punch with his attacksslow attacks? I know his attacks have range and power, but it's so slow...
Yeah, and since slow attacks are predictable, I really had a hard time battling with characters who can counter.Slow attacks are generally compensated by range. He's a spacing character by nature so his optimal playstyle is to play from a zone where in opponents won't beat him to the punch with his attacks
Theoretically (and in a tournament), that should be the way he approaches the match up against Rosaluma
I mean, yes. You can take advantage of that but you need to get in up-close first. This is where the baiting Shulk out part comes in when I told you guys how to deal with him. Baiting players is a big case of "easier said than done" though. Be creative with it.
Just to let you know in advance, the next time Rosalina analyzes Shulk, the scoring will be split between default specials only, and custom specials allowed. I'm also planning on doing away with the ratio system that I've been using, and switch to a scoring system that's similar to the one at Shulk's match-up directory thread; +1 for small advantage, +2 for moderate advantage, etc..I'm not really experienced with the customs aspects of the MU. Er, my bad
Good choice~Just to let you know in advance, the next time Rosalina analyzes Shulk, the scoring will be split between default specials only, and custom specials allowed. I'm also planning on doing away with the ratio system that I've been using, and switch to a scoring system that's similar to the one at Shulk's match-up directory thread; +1 for small advantage, +2 for moderate advantage, etc..
Yeah I only started with the ratio system, since the games were still pretty new when I started Rosalina's match-up discussions. But now that it's becoming clear that no match-up is ever going to be at a 100:0 or 0:100 dilemma, it's getting to a point where a more simplified scoring system should take over. Of course, these changes won't officially take over on Rosalina's side until June, since Rosalina still has a few more non-DLC characters to analyze.Good choice~
It's a lot simpler this way. I'm glad people are beginning to think that this is the way to go.
I actually tried this just now. Smash art is amazing for quick disposal of the luma. Worked for me but idk. How is it going for you?Bumping this thread as I may have thought of a potentially solid anti Rosa strat. Though I've yet to apply it in practice, there are a good handful of very solid UK Rosalina mains that I can play against to experiment with this.
So our typical approach before was to opt for Buster to attempt to dispose of the Luma by dealing a ton of damage to it. This imo works better in theory than in practice as trying to deplete Luma's HP is never the most efficient way to deal with it, especially if it means putting yourself in a punishable position just to tack on damage. However, what if we started our games in Smash. Y'all heard me, possibly the ONE match-up where Smash has actual utility beyond increased kill potential. Allow me to elaborate further.
Shulk's vanilla moveset (and consequently his moveset in Jump, Speed, Shield and Buster) is largely incapable of knocking away the Luma at max HP due to Luma having essentially a knockback threshold. If an attack does below a certain amount of knockback it will only flinch the Luma as opposed to sending it away, giving it overall less vulnerability and leaving it in a more threatening position. Only Jab 3, Dash Attack, UTilt, USmash and DSmash can knock the Luma away in all arts except Smash. However, in Smash Shulk's ENTIRE MOVESET is capable of knocking the Luma away while it's at max HP. This means you can do something safe like a spaced FAir or BAir and instantly separate Rosa from her Luma, potentially killing the Luma right off the bat. Once Rosa's alone you switch back to your standard Speed/Jump/Buster and generally attempt to overwhelm her with your superior power and disjoints. Keep a mental note of when the Luma is going to respawn so you can optimally dispose of it in Smash upon re entry.
In order to optimise how we approach this match-up we need to optimise how we dispose of the Luma because solo Rosa is no where near as much of a threat. This strategy may just well be the stepping stone to doing that.
EDIT: This doesn't mean we should underestimate solo Rosa. She does still have large hitboxes, good frame data on her tilts and generally solid defensive options overall. One has to still pace themselves correctly so they can capitalise on the Luma's absence.