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Rolls seem problematic in this game

TTTTTsd

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I don't think the Poker comparison was very good. I don't think you'll lose to scrubs if you're good at this game LOL. I think the point is that if a strategy you're unfamiliar with comes up, it'll probably whack you. But I don't think roll spamming is very hard to counter once you consistently learn to do it.

Of course it's REALLY an inflated issue with online, if you ask me. Latency plays a big part in why people are upset.
 
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LancerStaff

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I would really like to see actual footage of people punishing roll spammers.
I'd upload some videos if I had any decent camera at all and that crazy Wii U bricking glitch wasn't going around. Even my Link Amiibo learned to roll spam from a friend and I can punish it consistently, and that's with CPUs reading imputs.
 

LightLV

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I would really like to see actual footage of people punishing roll spammers.
The best you'll find is a large hitbox projectile, high-frame dash attack or Dsmash (Mario, Peach, Megaman) or dash special (Cfalcon, Pit) hitting someone who backrolls.

As for people literally reading and punishing rolls with positioning and well timed attacks? Not happening. You're more likely to just get punished during the cooldown frames after you miss.

Im sure some super high computer-reaction players can do it. But you probably wont ever see it elsewhere, most ****in certainly not in netplay.
 

Prawn

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so basically your post boils down to "get good"?
winning matches against scrubby players only half the time is not indicative of a competitive game (at all)
its that 'everyone can win' mentality that Sakurai was going for

comparing smash to poker....seriously?
I was comparing the idea that you won't win every exchange even if sometimes you make the right call. And yes you can beat scrubby players 100% of the time but a lot of the times they will get hits in and get stuff in even though you are "better"

And I was comparing the mentality of poker players to the mentality that everyone who is crying in this thread has.

And I said that's pokers win rate for good players, not smash. I'm trying to stress that everyone saying "ZOMGZ I read THEM AND THEY STILL HIT ME WTF" is being an idiot and needs to realize that not everything works all the time especially if you are not that good

Reading comprehension....seriously?
 
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Shack

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Wow, people are still complaining about rolls?

Rolls and Dash Attacks in Smash are the equivalent of Jump Ins in Street Fighter. Yes they can be very strong and cover a lot of distance quickly, but they are very telegraphic and punishable. Rolls/Dash Attacks require a 100% commitment. You have no freedom to stop, attack with different timing, mix things up, etc. You guys really have to learn to read your opponent and how to punish properly because Rolls in Smash and Jump Ins in SF are n00b traps.

Instead of turning on autopilot in your next match, take some time to learn how your opponent reacts and approaches you. Very often they have one game plan and that is it. If they too learn and switch things up on the fly, then they are most likely a good player. A majority of players online, repeat the same patterns over and over again.
 
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Prawn

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Wow, people are still complaining about rolls?

Rolls and Dash Attacks in Smash are the equivalent of Jump Ins in Street Fighter. Yes they can be very strong and cover a lot of distance quickly, but they are very telegraphic and punishable. Rolls/Dash Attacks require a 100% commitment. You have no freedom to stop, attack with different timing, mix things up, etc. You guys really have to learn to read your opponent and how to punish properly because Rolls in Smash and Jump Ins in SF are n00b traps.

Instead of turning on autopilot in your next match, take some time to learn how your opponent reacts and approaches you. Very often they have one game plan and that is it. If they too learn and switch things up on the fly, then they are most likely a good player. A majority of players online, repeat the same patterns over and over again.
No dude rolls are overpowered they need to be nerfed now I need footage of someone punishing one cause I don't believe it's possible!!'
 

Shack

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No dude rolls are overpowered they need to be nerfed now I need footage of someone punishing one cause I don't believe it's possible!!'
Lol, damn I completely forgot that they are broken, my bad.
 

otter

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Wow, people are still complaining about rolls?

Rolls and Dash Attacks in Smash are the equivalent of Jump Ins in Street Fighter. Yes they can be very strong and cover a lot of distance quickly, but they are very telegraphic and punishable. Rolls/Dash Attacks require a 100% commitment. You have no freedom to stop, attack with different timing, mix things up, etc. You guys really have to learn to read your opponent and how to punish properly because Rolls in Smash and Jump Ins in SF are n00b traps.

Instead of turning on autopilot in your next match, take some time to learn how your opponent reacts and approaches you. Very often they have one game plan and that is it. If they too learn and switch things up on the fly, then they are most likely a good player. A majority of players online, repeat the same patterns over and over again.
****** this argument again isn't really worth the time, so just read the last couple pages if you can't read he thread before replying.
 

ItsRainingGravy

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The reason why defensive options are so good in this game is probably due to two things:

Items, and 4-8 Player Smash.

If you use the above two reasons to determine why defensive options in this game are so good, it makes a lot of sense. It would explain why shield dropping/airdodging is almost instantaneous, why most rolls cover more distance (and at a faster speed) than before, and why shields regenerate at a rapid pace. Sakurai did all of this to further glorify his game as a party game, and additionally, lower the skill floor to better allow players of all ages to have a chance at winning in Smash 4. And regarding the two aforementioned points, is there anything wrong with his views? No, not really.

However, the problem here is that while these defensive options being so potent is that, while they are optimal for matches with items and 4-8 Player Smash, they become a bit too potent within other areas in the game. In particular, 1v1 matches, and online matches. For online matches, the main issue here is that if you or your opponent don't have a decent internet connection, roll spamming just becomes silly with online lag. As for 1v1 matches, better defensive options don't horribly askew risk/reward in a sense that they will always give you a chance to punish your opponent while you are using a defensive option. Competitive players will always have an edge in that they will be more likely to predict rolls, shieldgrabs, airdodges, and so forth. Despite this, predictions and human reactions can only go so far, as matches involve two players trying to outsmart eachother as opposed to just one.

With better defensive options, while it might not break the foundation of risk/reward in a competitive match (specifically reward), it does do one thing: defensive options have less risk attached to them. I don't think anyone can really deny that defensive options in this game are stronger in comparison to the rest of the series. And yes, while they can still be punished and predicted, it does lower the window of opportunity of when and how they can be punished. Slower characters in particular will have a harder time punishing these options (thankfully the average character speed of this game has been amped up), rolling away from your opponent becomes a much safer option to reset the pace of the match back to neutral, instantaneous shield dropping allows you to defend against an aggressive opponent more efficiently (such as opponents trying to empty jump -> grab against you can get jabbed/utilted in the face now), and so forth.

This isn't a game breaking problem. No, far from it actually. Though it does raise the potential of how long matches can be drawn out. Safer defensive options -> More success in regards to escaping a disadvantageous situation -> More times where the pace of the match is in the neutral state -> longer matches overall. It promotes more chances where players aren't really actively engaging eachother, as it allocates more time being placed in players trying to return safely to neutral as it helps them win. Usually, this doesn't take away the excitement from players actually participating in the match, though it can. But it does make a good margin of people watching the match feel more bored watching the match because it takes longer/competitive players are more likely to use tactics to put themselves in safer positions. And both of these things aren't exactly great for the overall competitive lifespan of a game, and the former being a reason why some competitive players opt for playing 2 stock matches as opposed to 3.

Sakurai did try to balance defensive options as to not make them insanely potent. He did so using three methods: more shield damage, universal airdodge landing lag, and better grabs. Sadly, the shield damage is mostly negated with how fast shields regenerate. The other two changes have a much more immediate effect though. Airdodging is indeed less safe in this game in comparison to Brawl, and that is a good thing. And better grabs, while great for countering the improved shielding and rolling in this game, is half of the very reason why Smash 4's metagame is so grab-centric. Improved defensive options, with improved grabs to counter them. It is nice that such an option exists to counter such a potent aspect in Smash 4's current metagame, though it leads to a certain over-reliance on this option to yield the most success in countering said defensive options, as well as shortening the amount of time a match lasts.

Thus with all of these reasons combined, we have discovered why and how Smash 4 is so defensive and grab-centric overall, as well as why some players are dissatisfied with how Smash 4 currently plays.


So then, that's fine and dandy and all, but where does that lead us? My personal opinion is that while the defensive options of Smash 4 can be tweaked an improved upon, it is still an excellent game to play. Both casually and competitively. In regards to how I would want the defensive aspects of Smash 4 to be tweaked though, I feel as though seeking examples from previous games in the series isn't the way to go, however. Such as more shieldstun, which would indeed improve aggressive play in a 1v1 match, would have repercussions within other areas of the game. Namely the two things I stated in the opening of this post: Items, and 4-8 Player Smash. Adding more shieldstun would probably go against Sakurai's emphasis on Smash being centered around these two modes. For example, some items deal a TON of shield damage. Add more shieldstun on top of this, and a player would probably find themself with a broken shield within a second or two. And this can lead to the dissatisfaction of casual players playing the game. So then, if there were adjustments to be made to how Smash 4 handles defensive options, it would probably coincide with Sakurai's views on how the game "should be played".

One such example, which I have mentioned in a previous topic, would be increasing shielddrop lag.

With more shielddrop lag, it makes it to where defensive options while shielding are somewhat limited, and offense against a shielding opponent becomes improved. More pokes become safer against a shielding opponent, and the shielding opponent now has less opportunities in which they can punish a player who is attacking them (unless they perfect shield against them). This allows for more opportunities to be aggressive in a 1v1 competitive environment, and it doesn't really hinder item and 8 player matches as you can still roll/jump/grab out of shield. And unlike shieldstun, shielddrop lag has a universal timer attached to it (I think?), meaning that it becomes a lot easier to know when your poking options are safe against the majority of the cast. Plus it coincides with how Sakurai gave a universal landing lag on airdodges.


There are other things that could improve Smash 4 in regards to toning down defensive options/grabs, but ultimately, it is what it is. Smash 4 has shown that it can be a good competitive gave even if it is more oriented towards defense/grabbing, and the development team have shown that they are willing to patch the game for the sake of balance (at least balance in their eyes anyways). So while competitive players will have to adapt to the new mechanics Smash 4 has, it is still a very fun game, and that is what counts. Improvements can always be made to the game's mechanics, sure, but Smash 4's reliance of defensive options and grabs only really pose a problem to laggy online play. Competitive players, on the other hand, will be able to handle it...even if it leaves a bit of a sour taste in some competitive players' mouths. So while there might not be much we can do about it, we can always adapt.
 
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LightLV

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Wow, people are still complaining about rolls?

Rolls and Dash Attacks in Smash are the equivalent of Jump Ins in Street Fighter. Yes they can be very strong and cover a lot of distance quickly, but they are very telegraphic and punishable.
...Yeah, sorry, no. This was actually brought up a few pages back, i suggest you flip through them. Similar idea, yeah, but so dramatically far from equivalency that the connection might as well not even be mentioned.

It's like saying spot dodging is the equivalent of parring in Third Strike, or smash 4 hitstun is the equivalent of hitstun in Marvel...

The reason why defensive options are so good in this game is probably due to two things:

Items, and 4-8 Player Smash.
.....that actually makes alot of really good sense.

In fact, when talking about why Brawl ended up the way it did, I used to always tell people that it felt obvious that MOST of the changes to brawl's mechanics felt alot like compensation for Subspace Emissary. No hitstun, super floaty physics, infinite air dodges, newcomers all equipped with horrifically spammy moves...all kind of added up when you looked at the multiplayer as sort of a supplement to the story mode. Because it actually makes sense there. At least, on paper it does....it was still boring.

But yes, it most certainly makes sense when you look at it that way, 8-player matches would be nigh-unplayable on the ground without some way to move around without somehow touching a hitbox, and edgeguarding would be entirely OP with 8 players on the map and only 2 ledges to recover with.
 
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-LzR-

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What some people said was true, at least for me. In the WiiU version dealing with the rolls is much easier and more consistent. Pretty much to the point where I no longer really bother to complain. They are still a bit too strong because of the reason ItsRainingGravy said.
 

Shack

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...Yeah, sorry, no. This was actually brought up a few pages back, i suggest you flip through them. Similar idea, yeah, but so dramatically far from equivalency that the connection might as well not even be mentioned.

It's like saying spot dodging is the equivalent of parring in Third Strike, or smash 4 hitstun is the equivalent of hitstun in Marvel...
I prefer not to search through a bunch of pages to find it, nor need to because I do not have a problem with roll spammers like most people on here complaining do. All you did was say how wrong I was, yet failed ot provide any evidence or the reference to what you were talking about.

Spot Dodging is no where near the equivalent of Parrying in SF3. Parrying allowed you to continue offensive pressure while not taking any damage and canceling block stun. It rewarded the player for having good timing and being aggressive vs holding block. If anything Parrying is the equivalent to Perfect Shielding in every smash game. You cannot punish a Parry because it only activates when it works, but you can punish a Spot Dodge.

And hit stun is not equal to the hit stun in Marvel because they have different combo systems.

For real man, what are you even talking about? Please elaborate.
 
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Quillion

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Watch this: you don't even have to go to a specific time to see all the rolling.


I have FINALLY given you all evidence that rolling is all a game of luck. Just look at them. They keep trying to grab each other and punish each other, but the game is pretty much driven by wrong reads and lucky roll hits. This is ROLL SPAMMING and it's at high level of play.

Even you anti-rollers: you are all pathetic. I was the ONLY one to look into actual proof of rolls being horribly OP, and all you did was whine about your personal experiences that no one cares about. I went in and found the proof for all of you. You're welcome.

And to you pro-rollers, if you are still intent on arguing for rolling:

 

Prawn

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Watch this: you don't even have to go to a specific time to see all the rolling.


I have FINALLY given you all evidence that rolling is all a game of luck. Just look at them. They keep trying to grab each other and punish each other, but the game is pretty much driven by wrong reads and lucky roll hits. This is ROLL SPAMMING and it's at high level of play.

Even you anti-rollers: you are all pathetic. I was the ONLY one to look into actual proof of rolls being horribly OP, and all you did was whine about your personal experiences that no one cares about. I went in and found the proof for all of you. You're welcome.

And to you pro-rollers, if you are still intent on arguing for rolling:

The games been out for a few weeks and people rolled at a high level in brawl too. Not to mention a high level player using an option correctly =\= it being OP, otherwise...everything would be OP. Continue skewing facts to fit your agenda plz


And if you're arguing that rolling is a game of luck you're on some other level of stupid I can't compete with

And one matchup/one game/whatever will never prove your point. But hey if it's all luck then why not come win apex 2015 by just rolling around? It's all luck after all
 
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Quillion

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The games been out for a few weeks and people rolled at a high level in brawl too. Not to mention a high level player using an option correctly =\= it being OP, otherwise...everything would be OP. Continue skewing facts to fit your agenda plz
They are CONSTANTLY doing it. Not to do it at the right time and turn the tide of the battle (like defense in Melee), but to draw out the match and to make the opponent feel like they're doing something.

Also, don't give the BS excuse of "this game has been out a few weeks". The game is mechanically identical to Smash 3DS. If people have finally realized how powerful rolling was in Smash 3DS, they would do it in Smash U as well.

Like Egoraptor said: waiting for the opponent to drop defense doesn't take skill; it only feels like it because it takes up your time.

Give it up; it's a losing battle.
 
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Prawn

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They are CONSTANTLY doing it. Not to do it at the right time and turn the tide of the battle (like defense in Melee), but to draw out the match and to make the opponent feel like they're doing something.

Like Egoraptor said: waiting for the opponent to drop defense doesn't take skill; it only feels like it because it takes up your time.

Give it up; it's a losing battle.
Okay dude. You're the man now dog. Making blanket statements on the meta of a game that's been out for less then a month and declaring the game devoid of skill is definitely a rational and logical process. Gg

Because no ones ever adapted and a game has never evolved to deal with certain elements being used or abused. Just give the game up now or cry for a patch everyone. Quillion has shown us the light. No use in playing the game anymore because this is what it will always be and will never evolve.

For the record dude, I'm ignoring your posts on here from now on, because you're really really ignorant.
 
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Quillion

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Because no ones ever adapted and a game has never evolved to deal with certain elements being used or abused.
I'll give you that because patching is entirely possible, the latter part is true.
 

LancerStaff

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Give it up; it's a losing battle.
Yeah, no. You found one match in one tournament where people rolled alot. Until it becomes the dominant strategy in tournaments everywhere, you can't call it OP.

Oh, ever hear of Mew2King? Called Brawl Zelda cheap and OP in the first month. Why? Din's fire. Lel, nobody gets hit by it. Prove to me your comments aren't just salt like M2K's here.
 

Prawn

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Also nakat didn't roll with fox in brawl ever....right...or are they broken in brawl too? Oh and lucarios rolls in brawl. Totally OP.

:laugh:

Think you're confusing "viable" with "OP"
 
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Appledees

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I'm sorry but any of your arguments lose any form of momentum and reason when you quote egoraptor of all people.
 

Prawn

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His arguments lose momentum when he claims that it's just luck if you punish a roll. In fact I'm pretty sure this dude is trolling. He cannot be serious
 

Appledees

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He'll get all respect for me if he actually goes to a tournament and just rolls all the time and wins while listening to "Rollin" by Limp Bizkit

Maybe he'll finally be recognized as the best player and knows more than any of us
 
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Quillion

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Yeah, no. You found one match in one tournament where people rolled alot. Until it becomes the dominant strategy in tournaments everywhere, you can't call it OP.

Oh, ever hear of Mew2King? Called Brawl Zelda cheap and OP in the first month. Why? Din's fire. Lel, nobody gets hit by it. Prove to me your comments aren't just salt like M2K's here.


Have two more. In the latter, the announcers even talk about Keitaro rolling constantly and winning.
 

LightLV

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I prefer not to search through a bunch of pages to find it

....failed ot provide any evidence or the reference to what you were talking about.
Uhh....

Spot Dodging is no where near the equivalent of Parrying in SF3. Parrying allowed you to continue offensive pressure while not taking any damage and canceling block stun. It rewarded the player for having good timing and being aggressive vs holding block. If anything Parrying is the equivalent to Perfect Shielding in every smash game. You cannot punish a Parry because it only activates when it works, but you can punish a Spot Dodge.

And hit stun is not equal to the hit stun in Marvel because they have different combo systems.
PShield WOULD be the equivalent of parrying, if you weren't pressing block to use it, blocking dealt chip damage, and blocking attacks in the first place actually resulted in defensive pressure. But alas...

Not to mention, you get punished for a parry anytime you decide to use it and screw up. And, despite how awesome Daigo is, it's very very easy to screw up.

Rolling is nothing like jumping in street fighter. I don't even know why you'd make that connection, the risks involved are nnnnnnnnnnnnnnooooooooooooooooooooooooooooowhere close to analogous. You can't block in the air, anti-airs exist, you can easily eat an ultra for it, and you're almost certainly now on the defensive if you got hit. Not to mention, jumping >IN< is almost always an offensive decision.
 
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Quillion

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I can give you thirty matches where rolling isn't used effectively for every one it is.

Mmm, try again.
I'd like to see you try. At least if you'd try to show me high-level roll punishing, I'd be inclined to believe you.
 

LancerStaff

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I'd like to see you try. At least if you'd try to show me high-level roll punishing, I'd be inclined to believe you.
Not even worth my time, you'd just attempt to refute it with more lolrolling vids.

If it was OP it'd be everywhere. It's not, so it's not. It's Brawl Zelda all over again.
 

Shack

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Uhhh... All you did was say that you recall someone mentioning this in the past and for me to search through the pages to find it. You tell me I am wrong, but don't direct me to the information in regards to it. Instead you tell me to go search for it when again... I am not the one having issues with rolls...


PShield WOULD be the equivalent of parrying, if you weren't pressing block to use it, blocking dealt chip damage, and blocking attacks in the first place actually resulted in defensive pressure. But alas...

Not to mention, you get punished for a parry anytime you decide to use it and screw up. And, despite how awesome Daigo is, it's very very easy to screw up.

Rolling is nothing like jumping in street fighter. I don't even know why you'd make that connection, the risks involved are nnnnnnnnnnnnnnooooooooooooooooooooooooooooowhere close to analogous. You can't block in the air, anti-airs exist, you can easily eat an ultra for it, and you're almost certainly now on the defensive if you got hit. Not to mention, jumping >IN< is almost always an offensive decision.
Dude, you are completely missing the point just because you want to argue with me. I never said that Rolls/Dashes in smash move exactly the same as jumping does lol. I am saying that they are both abused by scrubs and effective against people that do not know how to punish them. They can be useful tools if used correctly, but spamming them will not get you anywhere other than winning random online matches and against not very skilled players.
 
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chipz

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Uhhh... All you did was say that you recall someone mentioning this in the past and for me to search through the pages to find it. You tell me I am wrong, but don't direct me to the information in regards to it. Instead you tell me to go search for it when again... I am not the one having issues with rolls...




Dude, you are completely missing the point just because you want to argue with me. I never said that Rolls/Dashes in smash move exactly the same as jumping does lol. I am saying that they are both abused by scrubs and effective against people that do not know how to punish them. They can be useful tools if used correctly, but spamming them will not get you anywhere other than winning random online matches and against not very skilled players.
im not sure which games you're watching but they do use roll roughly 5x as often as your average melee match.
That said I think shields themselves are more ridiculous than rolling, since there's no shield stun, the shield regens super fast, and it comes out and disappears very quickly so you now have shield being used as an approach. Not a fan, sorry.
 

Shack

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im not sure which games you're watching but they do use roll roughly 5x as often as your average melee match.
That said I think shields themselves are more ridiculous than rolling, since there's no shield stun, the shield regens super fast, and it comes out and disappears very quickly so you now have shield being used as an approach. Not a fan, sorry.
I am watching M2K, Zero, Shi-G, Clash Tourneys, and Torney Locator. If you have some footage of people winning tournaments simply because of a lot of rolling, please link me to them so I can be better educated on the matter.
 

LightLV

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Dude, you are completely missing the point just because you want to argue with me. I never said that Rolls/Dashes in smash move exactly the same as jumping does lol. I am saying that they are both abused by scrubs and effective against people that do not know how to punish them. They can be useful tools if used correctly, but spamming them will not get you anywhere other than winning random online matches and against not very skilled players.

The point you choose to continue missing, is the fact that the statements:


"They can be punished"

And,

"They can be punished reliably"


Are two very different things. I see what you're trying to say, your analogy is just wrong. And I don't know why you keep defaulting to "spamming" rolls. Why do they have to be spamming them, do they not know how to dash or jump or spot dodge? What happens when someone knows how to "correctly" use rolls, what about then huh? Are they somehow less powerful?

Clearly not, pros and scrubs alike have been talking about rolls since the game released.
 
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Shack

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The point you choose to continue missing, is the fact that the statements:


"They can be punished"

And,

"They can be punished reliably"


Are two very different things. I see what you're trying to say, your analogy is just wrong. And I don't know why you keep defaulting to "spamming" rolls. Why do they have to be spamming them, do they not know how to dash or jump or spot dodge? What happens when someone knows how to "correctly" use rolls, what about then huh? Are they somehow less powerful?

Clearly not, pros and scrubs alike have been talking about rolls since the game released.
If they are using rolls skillfully(anticipating your moves), then they are reading you and outplaying you. It is not that rolls are broken, it is that the person you are playing is better than you or you are telegraphic. And again, yes you can punish a roll, as long as the roll is not already being used to counter you. If you FSmash and I roll behind you, then I read and punished you. There is no reason why you should be able to whiff moves safely because you made a mistake in the first place. Just like if I hit you with an anti air in any SF game, I did it either on reaction or because I had a feeling that you would jump.

Also, I could be wrong, please correct me if I am, but all of you that are telling me I am wrong, seem to be 2014's that have only played Smash4 and maybe Brawl (according to your profiles). So what credibility do you have if you are new to the series? Because right now this is what I see. People who are new to the game are complaining about a mechanic that I am not having trouble with. I try to explain to them ways to get around it, and they tell me I am wrong, regardless of how much more experience I may have with the series than them.

The video posted early shows rolls being punished. Go to 4:40 and watch as the FSmash is timed for the roll and the announcers even mention that he rolled right into it.

 
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Prawn

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If they are using rolls skillfully(anticipating your moves), then they are reading you and outplaying you. It is not that rolls are broken, it is that the person you are playing is better than you or you are telegraphic. And again, yes you can punish a roll, as long as the roll is not already being used to counter you. If you FSmash and I roll behind you, then I read and punished you. There is no reason why you should be able to whiff moves safely because you made a mistake in the first place. Just like if I hit you with an anti air in any SF game, I did it either on reaction or because I had a feeling that you would jump.

Also, I could be wrong, please correct me if I am, but all of you that are telling me I am wrong, seem to be 2014's that have only played Smash4 and maybe Brawl (according to your profiles). So what credibility do you have if you are new to the series? Because right now this is what I see. People who are new to the game are complaining about a mechanic that I am not having trouble with. I try to explain to them ways to get around it, and they tell me I am wrong, regardless of how much more experience I may have with the series than them.
I brought this up earlier. About how you can try jab1 in one direction then ftilt in the other when/if they roll, several people told me that punish wasn't "worth it" or "good enough". Most of the people complaining about rolls are toddlers who can't take losing and have to blame a game mechanic. That's pretty much the bottom line

The point you choose to continue missing, is the fact that the statements:


"They can be punished"

And,

"They can be punished reliably"


Are two very different things. I see what you're trying to say, your analogy is just wrong. And I don't know why you keep defaulting to "spamming" rolls. Why do they have to be spamming them, do they not know how to dash or jump or spot dodge? What happens when someone knows how to "correctly" use rolls, what about then huh? Are they somehow less powerful?

Clearly not, pros and scrubs alike have been talking about rolls since the game released.
using this logic anything a good player ever does is OP because they do it smart and beat you with it, kdj could probably 4 stock me with pichu. Ban pichu?
 
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Shack

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I brought this up earlier. About how you can try jab1 in one direction then ftilt in the other when/if they roll, several people told me that punish wasn't "worth it" or "good enough". Most of the people complaining about rolls are toddlers who can't take losing and have to blame a game mechanic. That's pretty much the bottom line
I feel you man. I think I am done with this anyway. If they refuse to see it, no skin off my back, I just now know to abuse rolls if I ever go against them in a tournament lol

And Jabs/FTilts are an amazing counter to rolls because some characters can follow up with a grab or smash. It shows that they know very little about the whole Jump In analogy and fighting games in general. A lot of Jump Ins in SF are punished with an anti air that does little damage with no follow up, but the fact that you just countered their last 5 jumps is more than enough to make them stop doing it. If they don't stop, then just continue countering and win the match once you get them high enough.
 
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Prawn

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So basically we've established, that you don't lose to players worse then you because of rolls, and that rolls may be good or a decent option when used by good players.

Sounds so broken! Nerf immidietly!

Also we should get nintendo to nerf l canceling wave dashing and combos in melee because they are like so good and I lose matches because players do them to me!!!! And it's gonna kill the game competitively if my scrubby ass actually has to try to get good at something for once in my pathetic life
 
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