Rolls seem problematic in this game

[Doval]

I agree, but there's also an issue many character's few worthwhile moves not being able to kill. If I react to a roll with an f tilt, that's going to be pretty useless until 150%+, and there is a reasonable chance that ill get hit by a random smash attack and die at 60% before I can read 10 rolls. I'm not the best player in the world, you shouldn't have to be to get into the meat of the game.

Even without a kill, pushing them offstage opens up opportunities to kill offstage, then opportunities to punish however they choose to get up from the edge. Vertical attacks open up opportunities to use antiair moves or bait and punish air dodges. Both situations put you in control and in an advantageous position. If a character lacks the means to capitalize on any of those scenarios the character is sadly broken, but I wouldn't call it a problem in the game mechanics.

 

[otter]

Even without a kill, pushing them offstage opens up opportunities to kill offstage, then opportunities to punish however they choose to get up from the edge. Vertical attacks open up opportunities to use antiair moves or bait and punish air dodges. Both situations put you in control and in an advantageous position. If a character lacks the means to capitalize on any of those scenarios the character is sadly broken, but I wouldn't call it a problem in the game mechanics.

Considering how good recoveries are, and how easy it is to get up from the ledge, I just don't see that as sufficient incentive to worry about the roll in the first place.

I'm not saying gimps don't happen or punishing rolls doesn't happen, I'm just wondering why stack the odds against the better player so heavily? Why do THAT many stars need to align?

We could stop defining skill mostly by adaptation and more by who has the better flowchart, so you can just ignore wha your opponent is doing and develop a safe offensive loop, but that doesn't appeal to me so much.

 

[Doval]

Considering how good recoveries are, and how easy it is to get up from the ledge, I just don't see that as sufficient incentive to worry about the roll in the first place. I may as well stop interacting with my opponent and hope my flowchart is better.

Since you lose invincibility the second you let go of the edge, ledge attacks lose invincibility before their hit boxes come out and you get no invincibility on edge regrabs, even just reaching the edge is still an awful position to be in. There is no attack the opponent can throw that you can't just block safely. The best they can do is roll and return to neutral, which is a reasonable outcome considering how little effort you need to stop any offensive maneuvers they might try getting up.

I'm not saying gimps don't happen or punishing rolls doesn't happen, I'm just wondering why stack the odds against the better player so heavily? Why do THAT many stars need to align?

The better player is the one that wins. If rolling is a winning strategy, your opponent is rolling, and you're not, then he's naturally the better player.

 

[DavemanCozy]

What's with all the "online lag" complains in these posts? Enough of that bull, saying that rolls are harder to punish with lag is like saying the sky is blue: thanks for the cool fact.

If you go to a tournament, you won't be playing online anyways. Hence, no lag. The only lag you'll see is from poor communication (some venues will def. need to be tested). The tourneys for the Wii U version (which WILL be the standard, as TOJoe is already planning the Canadian Apex event, and he'll be using the Wii U version for the Smash 4 tournament), the lag will be non-existent as well.

 

[Thor]

Considering how good recoveries are, and how easy it is to get up from the ledge, I just don't see that as sufficient incentive to worry about the roll in the first place.

I'm not saying gimps don't happen or punishing rolls doesn't happen, I'm just wondering why stack the odds against the better player so heavily? Why do THAT many stars need to align?

We could stop defining skill mostly by adaptation and more by who has the better flowchart, so you can just ignore wha your opponent is doing and develop a safe offensive loop, but that doesn't appeal to me so much.

Stack the odds against the better player? WTFudge is this bullcrap?

The "better" player has all the same options the "worse" player does, and if the "better" player doesn't use them, they aren't the better player in the first place - you're begging the question for assuming that someone being better elsewhere means they're better in Smash 4.

If you can't adapt to the game mechanics and use a winning strategy, you aren't the better player, period, because you failed to adapt to the game mechanics.

No one can just ignore what the opponent is doing and develop a safe offensive loop. No one has EVER been able to do that in Smash in neutral (near-autocombos in 64 and Melee Fox can multishine on shield, but that's not in neutral). If you just loop over and over again, you'll either get punished or you are playing someone who can't adapt and thus isn't very good to begin with.

Also, getting up from the ledge is easy? Explain to me what fully invincible options people have off the ledge - I haven't found them yet, and that means someone like Marth can give you nightmares, dtilting your fingertips until you get up or get knocked off, then fairing you back offstage (or landing an fsmash, or just shieldgrabbing your attack).

Also totally agree about lag making it harder to punish rolls does not mean rolls are actually a problem.

 

[PCHU]

I just got done fighting a Mario player that seemed alright at first, but in close range, he always felt pressured to roll around, but mostly behind me and then dsmash, which I couldn't seem to punish.
With me being Dedede, I don't exactly have the fastest tools to deal with this kind of silliness, so I just started baiting his rolls by walking forward and dsmashing ahead of time.
Did it work?
Wonders, actually, but I'll bet he's still out there doing that against someone who'll fall for it.
Does it make me the better player?
I'd suppose so, since he didn't ever stop and consider that he was getting punished for it.
Does that mean I shouldn't care about this?
No, it's freaking annoying and I'm sick of putting up with this bullcrap.

Little Mac players who just roll across the freaking stage drive me up the wall, even if I get all the reads in the world, it's just overly tedious to counter something so simple.
I could complain about his range or his speed or the fact that he gets an incredibly powerful move just from me beating on him, but my biggest complaint is that this game is even more casualized than Brawl.
It acts as a cushion for people who can't bring themselves to think on a higher level and basically let the game do the work for them (more effective projectiles, unbalanced hitboxes, questionable gimmicks); it's workable, but I more frequently find myself saying "Maybe I should just pick up a better character" because the game tries so hard to shut me down it's almost not worth playing.
Rolls are just the icing on the casual cake.

tl;dr
Rolls are punishable, but they're too big of a cushion in my opinion.

 

[Doval]

I just got done fighting a Mario player that seemed alright at first, but in close range, he always felt pressured to roll around, but mostly behind me and then dsmash, which I couldn't seem to punish.
With me being Dedede, I don't exactly have the fastest tools to deal with this kind of silliness, so I just started baiting his rolls by walking forward and dsmashing ahead of time.
Did it work?
Wonders, actually, but I'll bet he's still out there doing that against someone who'll fall for it.
Does it make me the better player?
I'd suppose so, since he didn't ever stop and consider that he was getting punished for it.
Does that mean I shouldn't care about this?
No, it's freaking annoying and I'm sick of putting up with this bullcrap.

Little Mac players who just roll across the freaking stage drive me up the wall, even if I get all the reads in the world, it's just overly tedious to counter something so simple.
I could complain about his range or his speed or the fact that he gets an incredibly powerful move just from me beating on him, but my biggest complaint is that this game is even more casualized than Brawl.
It acts as a cushion for people who can't bring themselves to think on a higher level and basically let the game do the work for them (more effective projectiles, unbalanced hitboxes, questionable gimmicks); it's workable, but I more frequently find myself saying "Maybe I should just pick up a better character" because the game tries so hard to shut me down it's almost not worth playing.
Rolls are just the icing on the casual cake.

tl;dr
Rolls are punishable, but they're too big of a cushion in my opinion.

You're going to pass judgment on a game with no meta based on personal experiences against the character with the best rolls in the game?

 

[PCHU]

You're going to pass judgment on a game with no meta based on personal experiences against the character with the best rolls in the game?

I guess so.
I've played the game long enough to know what I like and what I don't like about it.
We're all trying to advance the meta and come up with ways around it, but the fact of the matter is that until we find out that dash techniques are just vastly superior (I don't feel like breaking my friend's control stick, so I'll hold out for the Wii U version), rolls are still going to be more annoying to deal with than before.

This isn't just limited to Little Mac, though -- it's a strategy that a lot of people execute, and some characters are just ridiculously safe.
I don't feel like spending the whole match camping, so I attempt a more rushdown style (as much as this game will let me), but it gets tiring when everyone just repeatedly runs away or rolls everywhere and spams projectiles because they juggle the opponent for you.
The worst thing in Brawl camp/evasion-wise (in my opinion) was Falco, and gatling aside, he wasn't as silly as some of the characters in Smash 4.
I think that character imbalance has a bit to do with it, and I could be completely wrong sometime in the future, who knows.
Still, the game's mechanics are problematic for me because I just like wars of spacing and very cerebral play; I was really hyped for the game at first and I was so excited in discovering playstyles for characters, but it just feels stale.
I haven't really come across anything that blew my mind besides losing most of my trades (one of them being DK's fsmash to Pac-Man's sideB), being bored enough of a matchup that I just give the other person the win, and not having fun by mauling people as Wario.
That should never not be fun.

None of this is fact, though, it's just my experience and thought from them.

 

[Tagxy]

@ PCHU Im going to quote shaya on the previous page, while I dont want to make light of how you feel, this is generally the way you need to thin:

Using anecdotal evidence for anything, without even live competitive tournament experience is questionable.
Using anecdotal evidence from WIFI? That's insulting to what competitive play means.
Are you watching tournament matches or good players at every opportunity to base your opinions off of either? If you are, is rolling seemingly dominating or centralising in tactics and play? Would you like to provide evidence to the contrary or otherwise? If not, you may as well not post.

This may seem alienating to new players who just want to talk about the game, but you could do so with at least the perspective that your experiences aren't conclusive nor infallible (neither are ours). As I've said in another thread, we're a section to discuss how to improve, not to complain. If this thread persists with well experienced and verbose players being shut out and down by the noise of an unbending rhetoric then this shouldn't be here.

Granted I credit that you understand your perspective may not be perfect. Butt in general there should be more meat to your position than just personal experience.

Good rolls don't lead to a campy meta; lack of viable attack/approach options lead to a campy meta.

I know this wasnt our main point, but this is false. I know certain players insist this is true, but in reality its the ratio of offensive:defensive options that determine which way the meta will tilt.

Considering how good recoveries are, and how easy it is to get up from the ledge, I just don't see that as sufficient incentive to worry about the roll in the first place.

I'm not saying gimps don't happen or punishing rolls doesn't happen, I'm just wondering why stack the odds against the better player so heavily? Why do THAT many stars need to align?

We could stop defining skill mostly by adaptation and more by who has the better flowchart, so you can just ignore wha your opponent is doing and develop a safe offensive loop, but that doesn't appeal to me so much.

What he described is actually the essence of ring-outs and obtaining KOs in smash, and isnt as difficult as you imply. Landing hits puts the opponent in a bad position that allow you to capitalize for KOs. Being offstage is a bad position, worse than it was in Brawl where people still netted KOs. Being on the ledge is also a bad position, which is worse than its been in any smash game. Both are excellent opportunities to land kill blows.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

@ PCHU

What he described is actually the essence of ring-outs and obtaining KOs in smash, and isnt as difficult as you imply. Landing hits puts the opponent in a bad position that allow you to capitalize for KOs. Being offstage is a bad position, worse than it was in Brawl where people still netted KOs. Being on the ledge is also a bad position, which is worse than its been in any smash game. Both are excellent opportunities to land kill blows.

You are definitely right about the ledge part. Lots of times I've killed with PK Flash as soon as my opponent grabs the ledge. And being offstage is very bad,because if you are fighting a good player they will kill you with an edge-guard, and if you are fighting a bad player they will edge guard by spamming a projectile or a smash attack *cough lucario cough little mac*

 

[Doval]

I know this wasnt our main point, but this is false. I know certain players insist this is true, but in reality its the ratio of offensive:defensive options that determine which way the meta will tilt

Imagine a game with 2 approach options and 1 defensive option that always allows counterattacking both offensive options.

Now imagine a game with 2 approach options and 4 defensive options where two defensive options beat one approach and the other two beat the second approach.

The former game has an offensive/defensive option ratio of 2:1 but offense always loses. The latter game has a ratio of 1:2 but half the defensive options are redundant and merely allow an alternative way to punish, and all defensive options can be beaten if they guess wrong. Which game will be campier?

The thing about rolling is that it mostly preserves the status quo; you can avoid attacks but it's difficult to actually counter people unless they did something really stupid.

 

[PizzaWenisaur]

@ PCHU Im going to quote shaya on the previous page, while I dont want to make light of how you feel, this is generally the way you need to thin:

Granted I credit that you understand your perspective may not be perfect. Butt in general there should be more meat to your position than just personal experience.

I know this wasnt our main point, but this is false. I know certain players insist this is true, but in reality its the ratio of offensive:defensive options that determine which way the meta will tilt.

What he described is actually the essence of ring-outs and obtaining KOs in smash, and isnt as difficult as you imply. Landing hits puts the opponent in a bad position that allow you to capitalize for KOs. Being offstage is a bad position, worse than it was in Brawl where people still netted KOs. Being on the ledge is also a bad position, which is worse than its been in any smash game. Both are excellent opportunities to land kill blows.

Ok - Imma really need you to explain why you think being offstage in this game is a worse position than in Brawl and how being on the ledge is worse than other games. I couldn't think any more opposite of you.

 

[Doval]

Ok - Imma really need you to explain why you think being offstage in this game is a worse position than in Brawl and how being on the ledge is worse than other games. I couldn't think any more opposite of you.

Because you only get invincibility or Up B cancels the first time you snap on and you lose invincibility the instant you let go.

You latched on. Your options are:
1) Edge attack. Not invincible, punishable on block on sidestep, predictable range.
2) Let go, aerial. Not invincible, punishable on block or sidestep if you land, no Up B canceling or invincibility the next time you try to grab the edge if you don't land, predictable range.
3) Jump. Not invincible, leaves you open to antiairs, air dodging is punishable, double jumping is risky as hell if you get hit out of it. If they're positioned out of edge attack reach, they're also in a good position to intercept you.
4) Roll. Probably the safest since it starts similar to an edge attack or jump and they might attack too early. However it's offset by the fact that the more you use it, the more likely they are to catch on and punish. If they're positioned out of edge attack reach, they're also in a good position to punish you.
5) Let go, jump and land with no air dodge. Super vulnerable and again no double jump if you get hit out of it. Like the roll, this only really works when it's unexpected.

Unless you have a move with startup invincibility you can use right after letting go of the edge, the best you can hope for is that they don't punish your edge roll. Even that won't work if they can leave a hit box over the edge since you'll get hit as soon as you let go, forcing you to go with another option. Most characters can't effectively retaliate from that position; your options are limited and the opponent's aren't. You're also required to act within a certain amount of time or your invincibility will wear off and the opponent gets a free hit.

 

[PizzaWenisaur]

Because you only get invincibility or Up B cancels the first time you snap on and you lose invincibility the instant you let go.

You latched on. Your options are:
1) Edge attack. Not invincible, punishable on block on sidestep, predictable range.
2) Let go, aerial. Not invincible, punishable on block or sidestep if you land, no Up B canceling or invincibility the next time you try to grab the edge if you don't land, predictable range.
3) Jump. Not invincible, leaves you open to antiairs, air dodging is punishable, double jumping is risky as hell if you get hit out of it. If they're positioned out of edge attack reach, they're also in a good position to intercept you.
4) Roll. Probably the safest since it starts similar to an edge attack or jump and they might attack too early. However it's offset by the fact that the more you use it, the more likely they are to catch on and punish. If they're positioned out of edge attack reach, they're also in a good position to punish you.
5) Let go, jump and land with no air dodge. Super vulnerable and again no double jump if you get hit out of it. Like the roll, this only really works when it's unexpected.

Unless you have a move with startup invincibility you can use right after letting go of the edge, the best you can hope for is that they don't punish your edge roll. Even that won't work if they can leave a hit box over the edge since you'll get hit as soon as you let go, forcing you to go with another option. Most characters can't effectively retaliate from that position; your options are limited and the opponent's aren't.

I was more interested in the offstage part ( I find that to be an extremely odd statement ) but...

Well you forgot about a regular getup, which I heard was buffed a lot ( like so strong that it goes through multi-hit moves like Bowsers fire ). And rolling ( and I think ledge-rolls also ) has been buffed too.
And you forgot to mention that this game doesn't cripple your getups past 100% which is super important because people live so long.

Also outside of options 1) and 2), for your list you didn't explain how these are inherently worse than in other games.

Edit: And getting hit while you are on the ledge isn't as bad (because you don't go as far and it's Project Recovery + ) than at least in Melee and PM.

Idk - I've never felt threatened on the ledge but that could just be my personal experience. It also might be a combination of other factors too. Of course I've also found jumping to be effective due to fast fall but...

 

[Doval]

I was more interested in the offstage part ( I find that to be an extremely odd statement ) but...

Well you forgot about a regular getup, which I heard was buffed a lot ( like so strong that it goes through multi-hit moves like Bowsers fire ). And rolling ( and I think ledge-rolls also ) has been buffed too.
And you forgot to mention that this game doesn't cripple your getups past 100% which is super important because people live so long.

Also Outside of options 1) and 2), for your list you didn't explain how these are inherently worse than in other games.

Idk - I've never felt threatened on the ledge but that could just be my personal experience. It also might be a combination of other factors too.

Fair point about the edge stand up, but that still loses invincibility before you can act and gets stuffed by persistent hit boxes in the same way edge attacks and edge jumps do.

The thing is, option 2 used to be viable and you could even get multiple shots at it, but now you get 0 invincibility and you only get one shot since otherwise you'll regrab without invincibility, leaving you even more vulnerable.

Midair jump with an air dodge was also safe in Melee with strict timing, and was more safe in Brawl than Smash 4 because of less air dodge lag.

The slow high % animations were actually useful for edgehogging because you could deny the edge for longer, which mattered against characters like Marth whose Up B hits well before they grab the edge.

Taken all together being on the edge is a no-win situation in this game. The most you can hope for is slipping by unnoticed and going back to the neutral game, but the odds are against you.

Right now people are still getting used to the new edge mechanics and exploring the possibilities with custom moves, but I suspect we'll start seeing people really punish opponents on the edge in a few months. I can already think of a few ways to really screw people - e.g. Samus's slow charge shot, Ike's big Eruption.

 

[Tagxy]

Imagine a game with 2 approach options and 1 defensive option that always allows counterattacking both offensive options.

Now imagine a game with 2 approach options and 4 defensive options where two defensive options beat one approach and the other two beat the second approach.

The former game has an offensive/defensive option ratio of 2:1 but offense always loses. The latter game has a ratio of 1:2 but half the defensive options are redundant and merely allow an alternative way to punish, and all defensive options can be beaten if they guess wrong. Which game will be campier?

The thing about rolling is that it mostly preserves the status quo; you can avoid attacks but it's difficult to actually counter people unless they did something really stupid.

*meaningful options. Options are generally implied to be meaningful, no ones really going to use fox side b to approach. But I guess I should've been clear, maybe its easier understood by saying the ratio of offensive and defensive capability. The point still stands however, approach options are only necessary insomuch as they allow you to overcome defense to secure the intended primary goal of the game or removing all of your opponents stocks.

Ok - Imma really need you to explain why you think being offstage in this game is a worse position than in Brawl and how being on the ledge is worse than other games. I couldn't think any more opposite of you.

And getting hit while you are on the ledge isn't as bad (because you don't go as far and it's Project Recovery + ) than at least in Melee and PM.

Idk - I've never felt threatened on the ledge but that could just be my personal experience. It also might be a combination of other factors too. Of course I've also found jumping to be effective due to fast fall but...

The ledge is an inherently bad position in all smash games except for fox in melee (and maybe PM?). In any case its obviously more powerful in melee, PM, and Brawl because the only safe thing about the ledge was refreshing invincibility. Since this is no longer possible the positional advantage makes it a pretty bad place to be in smash 4.

Brawls offstage being not as bad a position as smash 4 had much less to do with recoveries and more to do with weak hitstun and the magnet ledge. The recoveries overall in PM are definitely way better than Brawl or Smash 4, along with inadequate tools to fight offstage. Of course this is in general, MK certainly had an OP recovery in Brawl and M2 definitely has ridic tools to fight offstage in PM.

 

[Blueye]

I have been struggling to approach my opponent recently and fighting rolls are a part of that. Currently it feels that characters with good projectiles are better that those without, especially in For Glory. Anyway since approaching from the air is not safe on shield for almost any character (since you get shield grabbed and whatnot) you have to approach through the opponents projectiles.

The problem is, as soon as i get remotely close to my opponent, they always seem to roll away and in the wrong direction i guessed they would. Even if i got the read, they can react to my punish by not rolling at all or they roll straight through a down smash. I also cant seem to punish any attacks as they somehow roll away just in time (maybe its me thinking a move hard more lag)

So my question is: any advice to a less experienced smasher on how to approach well vs projectile/rolling characters? My main chars are Toon Link, Robin, Marth and sometimes Pit, Diddy or Lucario.

I know the obvious answer here is: get better, but i would like to see what i can improve instead of getting such an obvious answer. I know that i need to shieldgrab more often instead of grabbing out of shield (different input and it slower) but other than that i feel like i cannot get to the other person.

 

[Doval]

I have been struggling to approach my opponent recently and fighting rolls are a part of that. Currently it feels that characters with good projectiles are better that those without, especially in For Glory. Anyway since approaching from the air is not safe on shield for almost any character (since you get shield grabbed and whatnot) you have to approach through the opponents projectiles.

The problem is, as soon as i get remotely close to my opponent, they always seem to roll away and in the wrong direction i guessed they would. Even if i got the read, they can react to my punish by not rolling at all or they roll straight through a down smash. I also cant seem to punish any attacks as they somehow roll away just in time (maybe its me thinking a move hard more lag)

So my question is: any advice to a less experienced smasher on how to approach well vs projectile/rolling characters? My main chars are Toon Link, Robin, Marth and sometimes Pit, Diddy or Lucario.

I know the obvious answer here is: get better, but i would like to see what i can improve instead of getting such an obvious answer. I know that i need to shieldgrab more often instead of grabbing out of shield (different input and it slower) but other than that i feel like i cannot get to the other person.

Best advice I can give you is to save replays. I'm sure there's patterns you can't possibly notice while in the heat of battle, and you're predisposed to remember the times you misread more than the times you got it right. Bear in mind that they're less likely to roll back as they approach the edge, and that with Toon Link/Robin you can pressure back with your own projectiles. Marth's Iai Counter makes throwing projectiles at mid range risky, and you can throw Shield Breaker or Storm Thust from a safe distance to poke shields or push them further back. Remember that once you've got a good lead, the pressure is on them to approach or they'll lose by time.

 

[PizzaWenisaur]

Fair point about the edge stand up, but that still loses invincibility before you can act and gets stuffed by persistent hit boxes in the same way edge attacks and edge jumps do.

The thing is, option 2 used to be viable and you could even get multiple shots at it, but now you get 0 invincibility and you only get one shot since otherwise you'll regrab without invincibility, leaving you even more vulnerable.

Midair jump with an air dodge was also safe in Melee with strict timing, and was more safe in Brawl than Smash 4 because of less air dodge lag.

The slow high % animations were actually useful for edgehogging because you could deny the edge for longer, which mattered against characters like Marth whose Up B hits well before they grab the edge.

Taken all together being on the edge is a no-win situation in this game. The most you can hope for is slipping by unnoticed and going back to the neutral game, but the odds are against you.

Right now people are still getting used to the new edge mechanics and exploring the possibilities with custom moves, but I suspect we'll start seeing people really punish opponents on the edge in a few months. I can already think of a few ways to really screw people - e.g. Samus's slow charge shot, Ike's big Eruption.

Hmm true. Didn't think about that.

Edit: I forgot to say that I think those buffs I mentioned above ( 'specially along with strong recoveries in general ) might just make it roughly the same as being on other game's ledges ( in terms of danger levels ). Of course I'm not sure, that invinciblity thing might tip the scale more than I expect. And I can certainly see that being the case.

 

[PizzaWenisaur]

*meaningful options. Options are generally implied to be meaningful, no ones really going to use fox side b to approach. But I guess I should've been clear, maybe its easier understood by saying the ratio of offensive and defensive capability. The point still stands however, approach options are only necessary insomuch as they allow you to overcome defense to secure the intended primary goal of the game or removing all of your opponents stocks.



The ledge is an inherently bad position in all smash games except for fox in melee (and maybe PM?). In any case its obviously more powerful in melee, PM, and Brawl because the only safe thing about the ledge was refreshing invincibility. Since this is no longer possible the positional advantage makes it a pretty bad place to be in smash 4.

Brawls offstage being not as bad a position as smash 4 had much less to do with recoveries and more to do with weak hitstun and the magnet ledge. The recoveries overall in PM are definitely way better than Brawl or Smash 4, along with inadequate tools to fight offstage. Of course this is in general, MK certainly had an OP recovery in Brawl and M2 definitely has ridic tools to fight offstage in PM.

But Smash 4 also has magnet ledges so...

And airdodges are safer in Smash 4, meaning that it's harder to successfully bait out an airdodge and punish appropriately. Brawl may have had weak hitstun - but Smash 4 has weaker hits in general. These hits also seem to hit you generally at pretty high angles ( 40-ish degrees ), so sometimes even if you get hit when you're trying to recover it doesn't matter nearly as much as in other games. These hits often will just reset the situation ( unlike in PM where getting hit offstage almost always puts you in a worse postion ). I know many times I've had to contiunally Back-Air someone ( as Mario ) 3 or 4 times because my hits would just put them in the same position. At a pretty high percentage.

Also I disagree that PM recoveries are better ( this is partially due to hit trajectory though ). As a general rule of thumb, in this game if you have a jump and your Up-B, you can almost always recover ( with room to spare ). And even if you just have an Up-B, for many scenerios that's good enough to get back to the stage. This quite frankly isn't true in PM...( and I don't remember it being as true in Brawl ).

And you need to consider the new ledge trumping mechanic. Even with Brawl's ledge snapping, ledge-hogging was still a valuable tool in stopping people from recovering. Now because of this mechanic you can almost always go for the ledge. This and gives such a boost to people's recoveries it's a little ridiculous.

If you don't believe me, watch some tournaments. Even though this game is Project Recovery Plus, people aren't going for gimps and participating in offstage play nearly as much as you would except. I think it's because a combination of it's harder to actually get a hit and it's less rewarding ( outside of specific moves ) due to the factors I've mentioned above.

And airdodge -> Up-B has been made super strong. Like it makes almost this circle around the ledge where if the opponent is in that area there is no point in going after them.

Honestly the only thing that you should fear more is meteors, but I think that's dwarfed by these other factors.

 

[Thor]

(more effective projectiles

Shoot Falco's blaster and get back to me on that.

But Smash 4 also has magnet ledges so...

The ledge auto-sweetspot in Smash 4 is SIGNIFICANTLY smaller than in Brawl.

 

[YELLO]

it seems to me that the time a character is vulnerable after a roll in 3DS is significantly shorter then in brawl
I was playing against a lucario who could roll right through my top spin without taking a hit and did it repeatedly
needless to say after about a minute of that i punch the wall next to me and quit the game

 

[YELLO]

As Gannon one of his only redeeming qualities in brawl was his ability to choke loop people who continuously roll after the choke. Not only does this straight not work on some characters, he can't even get the choke on reaction to standard rolls. People have just straight rolled again out of the range of his choke.
.

well the reason ganondorf can do that anymore is because they added a restriction on grabbing
im not exactly sure of the time but you cant grab within a certain time frame after grabbing

 

[PizzaWenisaur]

Shoot Falco's blaster and get back to me on that.



The ledge auto-sweetspot in Smash 4 is SIGNIFICANTLY smaller than in Brawl.

Dude, you literally took out the most insequential part of my post. Yea they are smaller, but they are still pretty significant. And it doesn't matter that they are smaller with ledge trumping and people always being able to recover.

@ PCHU

Sakurai did something wierd with projectiles. He nerfed a very specific few projectiles ( even if they weren't that amazing ) like Falco's, Diddy Kong's, Mario's, Peach's, Pit's, Samus' Missiles, and more I think.

But then with people who recieved new projectiles, or to newcomers, he gave them pretty stronger projectiles. Like Shiek's, King Dedede's, Bowser Jr's, Rosalina's, Duck Hunt's, Greninja's, and Robin's.

So I'm not sure what's going on. From my perspective it looks like Sakurai doesn't understand why certain projectiles are good until pro-players start using them effectively. Then decides they are too cheap.

 

[luigijerk]

If rolling is such an issue, why does everyone say DK sucks? This is one of the main reasons I picked DK up in this game is his down B destroys roll spammers.

 

[otter]

If rolling is such an issue, why does everyone say DK sucks? This is one of the main reasons I picked DK up in this game is his down B destroys roll spammers.

it gets damage on roll spammers, as does any fast move, but the stock will always go to the first raw smash attack regardless of percentage.

 

[luigijerk]

That's a bit simplistic don't you think? If "any fast move" does damage to rollers, then /thread.

 

[Quartzsoldier]

*Roll spamming against puff with 1 minute left
*Sudden death

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

*Roll spamming against puff with 1 minute left
*Sudden death

Would be even worse against a Little Mac. You have like no chance of winning a sudden death against him.

 

[otter]

That's a bit simplistic don't you think? If "any fast move" does damage to rollers, then /thread.

this game is a bit different because your kill moves are very specific thanks to the blast zones and recovery.

 

[luigijerk]

this game is a bit different because your kill moves are very specific thanks to the blast zones and recovery.

What does that have to do with this topic or my post at all? If you're implying percentage doesn't matter, I think you need a reality check.

 

[Shaya]

Just done a little bit of testing on several characters.

The average roll is 30 frames.
The cool down of every roll I've seen is 10 frames. In other words, for 10 frames they're completely vulnerable.

All rolls have 4 frame start ups it looks like, and otherwise shielding is 2 frames in this game instead of 1.

So for every roll you see, there will be 13 frames of vulnerability between another roll, or 11 between a roll into shield.

Rolls are on average 1 frame less cool down than in Brawl
Rolls are on average 1 frame more invincibility than in Brawl.

Now these comparisons are against the best rolls in Brawl. Half the cast were shafted with rolls in Brawl, having much larger cool downs and vulnerability than the other half. Most rolls seem homogenised a bit to NOT BE SO HORRENDOUS ON OVER HALF THE CAST.

Spot dodges and shield frames have been nerfed across the board, with 7 frames of invincibility cool down for nearly everyone it seems. Some characters used to only have TWO.
Shields must be held for 10 frames, up from 7.

tl;dr The best rolls in Brawl are now available to everyone, while every other defensive option has been [seemingly] universally nerfed

 

[Aeon Lupin]

There should be a patch that makes the rolls punishable with a throw like in Sfxt.

 

[Doval]

There should be a patch that makes the rolls punishable with a throw like in Sfxt.

The point of grabs is to beat shielding. You want grabs to beat both universal defensive measures?

All rolls have 4 frame start ups it looks like, and otherwise shielding is 2 frames in this game instead of 1.

How did you test/discover that shielding is 2 frames now? I mean no disrespect, that's a very strange change if true. And I assume you're excluding sidesteps/spot dodges from counting as rolls here?

EDIT: There doesn't seem to be any delay before a shield comes out even at 1/4 while affected by a Timer, and I can block shots from a Killer Eye at the last second under those conditions. I can't seem to find anything that would suggest shielding takes 2 frames.

Spot dodges and shield frames have been nerfed across the board, with 7 frames of invincibility cool down for nearly everyone it seems. Some characters used to only have TWO.
Shields must be held for 10 frames, up from 7.

Which characters could drop shield in two frames? I could only find shield frame data for one or two characters but they had 7. Also, the ten frames can be circumvented by powershielding or blocking early. It's only a problem when you just barely miss a powershield attempt, and even then it's probably not enough to negate your frame advantage on block. I think it's mostly there to stop shielding from being an effective option to stop your run.

By the why I had done my own testing a week ago and the footage I recorded is consistent with your 10 frames of startup, 7 to release.

tl;dr The best rolls in Brawl are now available to everyone, while every other defensive option has been [seemingly] universally nerfed

That statement feels a bit misleading since a 1 frame difference is quite small, it doesn't affect the startup lag of the rolls, and shields are still way better that Melee. The shield release lag of Melee was 14 for the quickest characters.

 

[PizzaWenisaur]

Just done a little bit of testing on several characters.

The average roll is 30 frames.
The cool down of every roll I've seen is 10 frames. In other words, for 10 frames they're completely vulnerable.

All rolls have 4 frame start ups it looks like, and otherwise shielding is 2 frames in this game instead of 1.

So for every roll you see, there will be 13 frames of vulnerability between another roll, or 11 between a roll into shield.

Rolls are on average 1 frame less cool down than in Brawl
Rolls are on average 1 frame more invincibility than in Brawl.

Now these comparisons are against the best rolls in Brawl. Half the cast were shafted with rolls in Brawl, having much larger cool downs and vulnerability than the other half. Most rolls seem homogenised a bit to NOT BE SO HORRENDOUS ON OVER HALF THE CAST.

Spot dodges and shield frames have been nerfed across the board, with 7 frames of invincibility cool down for nearly everyone it seems. Some characters used to only have TWO.
Shields must be held for 10 frames, up from 7.

tl;dr The best rolls in Brawl are now available to everyone, while every other defensive option has been [seemingly] universally nerfed

Hmmm interesting. So rolls are indeed stronger and spotdodging is weaker...

Best rolls in Brawl huh, kind of makes sense. Can you make a gif of this or something and show your method. Like did you have someone roll normally, without anything happening ( to establish a control group ). Then have that same character roll into a smart bomb and compare when they got hit? It's not that I doubt you, but I'm super curious.

Unfortunately, I'm a little green when it comes to Brawl so... From what I heard a lot of people complained about the super good rolls, so it seems like the game didn't give the average character good enough tools to deal with those. But a pro Brawl player might be able to better tell if he thinks giving everyone Diddy Kong's Brawl roll is a good idea or not. How many times did people actually punish a retreating Diddy Kong or Squirtle roll?

I don't know if homogenizing rolls to be the best of Brawl's is a good idea. I would prefer them to homogenize them to be better than Melee, but not the best of Brawl.

 

[Tagxy]

tl;dr The best rolls in Brawl are now available to everyone, while every other defensive option has been [seemingly] universally nerfed

Pikachus spot dodge >feels< the same to me, but I could def be wrong. I dont know how to test invincibility vs cool down.

But Smash 4 also has magnet ledges so...

And airdodges are safer in Smash 4, meaning that it's harder to successfully bait out an airdodge and punish appropriately. Brawl may have had weak hitstun - but Smash 4 has weaker hits in general. These hits also seem to hit you generally at pretty high angles ( 40-ish degrees ), so sometimes even if you get hit when you're trying to recover it doesn't matter nearly as much as in other games. These hits often will just reset the situation ( unlike in PM where getting hit offstage almost always puts you in a worse postion ). I know many times I've had to contiunally Back-Air someone ( as Mario ) 3 or 4 times because my hits would just put them in the same position. At a pretty high percentage.

Also I disagree that PM recoveries are better ( this is partially due to hit trajectory though ). As a general rule of thumb, in this game if you have a jump and your Up-B, you can almost always recover ( with room to spare ). And even if you just have an Up-B, for many scenerios that's good enough to get back to the stage. This quite frankly isn't true in PM...( and I don't remember it being as true in Brawl ).

And you need to consider the new ledge trumping mechanic. Even with Brawl's ledge snapping, ledge-hogging was still a valuable tool in stopping people from recovering. Now because of this mechanic you can almost always go for the ledge. This and gives such a boost to people's recoveries it's a little ridiculous.

If you don't believe me, watch some tournaments. Even though this game is Project Recovery Plus, people aren't going for gimps and participating in offstage play nearly as much as you would except. I think it's because a combination of it's harder to actually get a hit and it's less rewarding ( outside of specific moves ) due to the factors I've mentioned above.

And airdodge -> Up-B has been made super strong. Like it makes almost this circle around the ledge where if the opponent is in that area there is no point in going after them.

Honestly the only thing that you should fear more is meteors, but I think that's dwarfed by these other factors.

No, Smash 4 ledges are nowhere near the degree of Brawls ledges. Weaker hits are sort of irrelevant, but thats not even true on its own. Smaller characters got weaker hits to contrast with bigger/strong characters who have stronger hits. Also the angle youre describing is the sakurai angle, which is prominent in every smash game since at least melee (iirc).

PM has many recoveries you can act out of up-b, tons of tethers, which along with very poor tools to edgeguard (aside from a select few characters) makes recovering much better. My main in melee which was known for gimping and is horrid at it in PM. And edge hogging in brawl really wasnt that common, even in PM its not too common for the reasons I mentioned. People make a big deal about edge hogging not realizing how uncommon it was in other games, even if ledge trumping didnt exist you wouldnt see many edge hogs unless you include the get up roll mechanic in melee which is quite honestly a bit weird.

And actually I do watch tournaments and high level play, I disagree with your assessment.

 

[DarkDream]

well the reason ganondorf can do that anymore is because they added a restriction on grabbing
im not exactly sure of the time but you cant grab within a certain time frame after grabbing

Not so for choke. If they neutral recovery you can grab them instantly no problem. The roll on some characters is just too invulnerable and pushes them too far

 

[otter]

did anyone just see hungrybox vs moses lol?

 

[Judo777]

Just done a little bit of testing on several characters.

The average roll is 30 frames.
The cool down of every roll I've seen is 10 frames. In other words, for 10 frames they're completely vulnerable.

All rolls have 4 frame start ups it looks like, and otherwise shielding is 2 frames in this game instead of 1.

So for every roll you see, there will be 13 frames of vulnerability between another roll, or 11 between a roll into shield.

Rolls are on average 1 frame less cool down than in Brawl
Rolls are on average 1 frame more invincibility than in Brawl.

Now these comparisons are against the best rolls in Brawl. Half the cast were shafted with rolls in Brawl, having much larger cool downs and vulnerability than the other half. Most rolls seem homogenised a bit to NOT BE SO HORRENDOUS ON OVER HALF THE CAST.

Spot dodges and shield frames have been nerfed across the board, with 7 frames of invincibility cool down for nearly everyone it seems. Some characters used to only have TWO.
Shields must be held for 10 frames, up from 7.

tl;dr The best rolls in Brawl are now available to everyone, while every other defensive option has been [seemingly] universally nerfed

Ummmm why does shield come out in 2 frames???? That seems slightly problematic, especially when there are frame 1 moves........... Blocking is always supposed to be your fastest option.................. this concerns me greatly.

 

[PizzaWenisaur]

Pikachus spot dodge >feels< the same to me, but I could def be wrong. I dont know how to test invincibility vs cool down.

No, Smash 4 ledges are nowhere near the degree of Brawls ledges. Weaker hits are sort of irrelevant, but thats not even true on its own. Smaller characters got weaker hits to contrast with bigger/strong characters who have stronger hits. Also the angle youre describing is the sakurai angle, which is prominent in every smash game since at least melee (iirc).

Ok - this response was a while coming.

That Sakurai angle you speak of has been increased in this game. More moves have it; moves that didn't launch foes at that angle now do. I'm not talking about comparing different character's moves ( that's dumb ) - I'm talking about comparing a character's specific move and how it changed throughout each iteration.
-----
Before I continue, it's important to discuss how we define hit angle. In Melee, technically, Mario's B-air launches foes at a near 45 degree angle. But by the time the foe can act, he is actually lower than the 45, so it's like he was actually hit lower. So when I say Mario's B-air doesn't hit at a 45-degree angle, what I mean is by the time the person can act they are actually lower than that. Compared to in Smash 4 ( and probably Brawl ) where if you get hit by Mario's B-air, by the time you can act you've been lauched at 45-degree angle ( or higher ) compared to your stating position.
-----
Mario's B-air didn't used to hit people at greater than 45-ish degree angles until Brawl ( and even then it's not as bad as in Smash 4 ). Then there are moves that didn't hit at that angle in Brawl, but do in Smash 4. For example, Fox's Shine and Shiek's F-air now hit people at that angle in Smash 4 - so I'm not sure why you came up with that "This angle existed in all Smash games since Melee" counter-arguement.

Also, I'm not sure why you can just call things like hit strength irrelevant. I mean if I have a Melee Shiek F-air that barely hits someone any distance, compared to one that hits them half-way across the stage, I don't see how that's irrelevent.

Second also, my point about Smash 4 and Brawl's ledge-snapping is the following: It doesn't matter too much that Brawl's ledge-snapping is greater, because it doesn't overcome the importance of these other factors.

Spoiler

*In Brawl and in Smash 4 for Mario's B-air, the higher the opponent's percentage the higher angle they get hit at. I even double checked to see if this was true in Melee. It wasn't.
Also that move would've killed or at least knocked him way farther in Brawl.

PM has many recoveries you can act out of up-b, tons of tethers, which along with very poor tools to edgeguard (aside from a select few characters) makes recovering much better. My main in melee which was known for gimping and is horrid at it in PM. And edge hogging in brawl really wasnt that common, even in PM its not too common for the reasons I mentioned. People make a big deal about edge hogging not realizing how uncommon it was in other games, even if ledge trumping didnt exist you wouldnt see many edge hogs unless you include the get up roll mechanic in melee which is quite honestly a bit weird.

PM doesn't have worse recovery issues actually. Those characters with an ungodly recovery is literally only a fraction of the characters ( about 13/41 being kinda generous ). Now compare this to Smash 4 where almost nobody, besides Little Mac and Ike, have trouble recovering.

You're actually right that edgehogging kills doesn't happen as much as I thought it did. But it still happens enough to be a legitamate threat. And you don't even mention that people will often grab the ledge to force someone to recover on-stage, to then punish them while they are suffering from the Up-B recovery frames. Which isn't something you can do in Smash 4 due to the new ledge mechanics.

And actually I do watch tournaments and high level play, I disagree with your assessment.

Based off of? Honestly - I think you're just making stuff up. This doesn't seem like something that anyone who played Melee, PM, Brawl, and Smash 4 a decent amount would say.

did anyone just see hungrybox vs moses lol?

Can you link?

Sorry double post.