Rolling = bad?

[WolfReflection]

Well, I've brawled a fair share of people and from what I've noticed, LOTS of them over roll and end up punished. So, in this thread, discuss rolling, alternatives, and benefits/downfalls of it.

 

[BSP]

Yes, rolling may be the worst defensive option, because you commit to the action and can't do anything until it finishes. I think shielding is a much better option since the only thing that can beat it is grabbing, and you can jump out of it into other options.

Rolling's benefits are pretty limited. I mean if you have a fast roll, you wont get punished nearly as much, but it's still commiting to an action, and if your opponenet sees it, you're screwed. I bet the samus and g and w players could give a lot of input.

 

[zeldspazz]

Unless your Ganon, where your backroll is fast than your dash speed xD

 

[ndayday]

I substitute rolling with spacing and power shields. :/

I mean, when you think about it, you usually have the impulse to roll when you're in a tough spot and you just want to get away...and it doesn't usually work too well after your opponent realizes what you're trying to do.

Some rolls are just down right awful, comparable to Peach's airdodge.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Rolling backwards/away from the opponent is pretty much the safest defensive option. It's reward is limited though as you rarely find a way to punish your opponent after rolling back. It also limits your space obviously so you can't just spam it. If you don't know what to do and you want to be safe then rolling back is almost always the best choice unless you're getting hardcore zoned. Some characters have worse backrolls than others obviously but I don't think that any character's back roll is that bad. Apparently Zamus' pretty much sucks though (although she has ways around that).

Rolling behind the opponent is rarely a good idea because you have to pass a hitbox while being invincible asap. Against moves with long lasting or huge hitboxes this can backfire pretty badly and almost all S- or A-Tier characters have such moves (MK's Nair, Snake's everything, Wario fsmash etc). In essence it is the complete opposite of the back roll - not only visually but also in it's purpose. It's not safe at all but it can be very rewarding if you manage to sneak behind a hitbox with long activity because you'll have plenty of time to punish.

As you can see rolling is neither inherently "good" or "bad" - very few moves in this game are. It just depends on the situation but dismissing a move as bad without looking at its positives isn't a smart idea in my book.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I roll against people. At top level play people 'overestimate' you by thinking you won't roll noobish, which often catches them off-guard.

 

[Kewkky]

I roll against people. At top level play people 'overestimate' you by thinking you won't roll noobish, which often catches them off-guard.

Nah, at top level their reaction speed is so good, wherever you roll, they will follow-up if possible. I assure you.

 

[DUB]

Nah, at top level their reaction speed is so good, wherever you roll, they will follow-up if possible. I assure you.

At the same time it can be used a positioning technique. There are MK's who use rolling in the Snake matchup to advance up to him and get behind him for a grab. I don't know much about Lucario but I'm sure players use roll --> up+tilt or other fast combinations to punish lag.

Ultimately, I agree with pretty much everyone here. Rolling gets you wrecked. Against the newer people to the game who are fond of rolling I play Ike. Theres nothing better then walking up to someone and charging a F-smash behind you and them rolling.

 

[WolfReflection]

Nuuu, there's nothing better than them rolling into a pawnch.

 

[xYoh]

If the character has fast rolls, they are very useful. Such as Lucario and Captain Falcon.

 

[Llumys]

Walk or run, unless your roll is good and you don't use it predictably.

 

[:mad:]

So long as you don't roll toward your opponent, you should be fine.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Nah, at top level their reaction speed is so good, wherever you roll, they will follow-up if possible. I assure you.

Not if you roll like a noob, aka at totally inappropriate situations. Or with lucario/falco.

 

[Merce]

Rolling can have its uses situationally, but more often than not you will get read and punished.

Just be smart and roll when it's appropriate. Don't completely condition it out of your muscle memory... ration it.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Rolling is just another move in brawl. You spam it, you'll be punished (by those that at least know how to punish )

 

[Pink murder]

I don't know how many times I've punished a roll with a grounded hammer
Rolling can and will get predictable and it's easily punishable. It should only be done in certain situations.

On a contradictory note, I sometimes roll towards my opponent so that I'm right in front of them and use Utilt . Don't get me wrong, I only use it once or twice in a match because many people don't expect it.


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[Tidal]

Frame data of rolls is available, but I don't think there's a source for how far you roll... I hear Lucario's (already fast) rolls are very long, but I have no idea what other chars' are like...

So, anyone know who has long/short rolls? How long your char's rolls are?

 

[Tin Man]

Perhaps it is better to use offense as a defense instead of rolling for defense. Bair out of sheild, use attacks in general, retrat while attacking with a projectile or high priority move, or spaced move, etc

I've been told that I roll a lot, I have to fix that

 

[Nefarious B]

ZSS has a top tier froll and a terrible broll, so it's actually advantageous to do a pivot froll instead of brolling, which is why her broll is considered so bad. There's literally never a situation when it should be used.

 

[DarkLouis331]

I have a bad habit with Wolf...rolling behind the opponent and doing Dsmash. I'm trying to kick the habit and experiment with airdodging instead or just find other ways to get a kill.

 

[Poltergust]

Frame data of rolls is available, but I don't think there's a source for how far you roll... I hear Lucario's (already fast) rolls are very long, but I have no idea what other chars' are like...

So, anyone know who has long/short rolls? How long your char's rolls are?

Hm... I don't know about the shortest, but I believe that the rolls that cover the most distance are Snake's, Samus', and Lucario's.

Yoshi's roll could also be considered if you roll right after being hit. Depending on the strength of the attack, he can roll quite a distance, sometimes even right off the stage. I don't think anyone else's roll shares this same property.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Use rolls ONLY to escape the opponent. If you're using tap jump and you're character has good utilt combos, switch your c-stick to attack or learn to buffer moves during a spot dodge or landing airdodge.

If the character has a fast roll, then yes it's useful in anyway except rolling behind someone. You'll be eating plenty of dsmashes.

 

[Kewkky]

Not if you roll like a noob, aka at totally inappropriate situations. Or with lucario/falco.

Wait a second...

I roll against people. At top level play people 'overestimate' you by thinking you won't roll noobish, which often catches them off-guard.

... What.

 

[Merce]

What he's saying is:

At cognitive levels of smash, it is beneficial do that which your opponent does not expect.

If you condition your opponent to think that you will rarely roll/ only roll away, it can be beneficial to roll into a seemingly disadvantageous position because you know they will not expect it. Thus, by rolling "noobishly" you actually forced them to position themselves in a way that is, in reality, advantageous.

It's like snake charging a forward smash in the opposite direction of his opponent. He knows that they are about to try to roll behind him... so even though the attack is positioned in a way that isn't intuitively where it should be placed, it works.

What am I going to do?
What is my opponent doing?
What does my opponent think I am going to do?

 

[TeSik]

The only thing is that rolls are not the hardest thing to punish. While there are some with some speed in them, others are very slow and thus easy to punish with a grab or w/e. It's not impossible to actually react and not to predict such.

 

[Merce]

Yeah, I agree. Rolling isn't a godsend, but it has its applications situationally.

 

[Bloodcross]

Roll the entire game to piss your opponent off.

Abuse this game's mechanics.

Rolling = god

 

[Kewkky]

What he's saying is:

At cognitive levels of smash, it is beneficial do that which your opponent does not expect.

If you condition your opponent to think that you will rarely roll/ only roll away, it can be beneficial to roll into a seemingly disadvantageous position because you know they will not expect it. Thus, by rolling "noobishly" you actually forced them to position themselves in a way that is, in reality, advantageous.

It's like snake charging a forward smash in the opposite direction of his opponent. He knows that they are about to try to roll behind him... so even though the attack is positioned in a way that isn't intuitively where it should be placed, it works.

What am I going to do?
What is my opponent doing?
What does my opponent think I am going to do?

What you're pointing out is definitely a must-know for thought-processes in higher levels of play, but it's not something to be applied constantly. People learn, so doing noobish things can be a bad idea if you already did it once or twice... And remember: there are positions that take care of 'noobish' approaches, as well as normal approaches (like MK's tornado/fullhopped dairs), so the majority of the time it's a much better idea to not take your chances and risk falling into a disadvantaged position where the opponent will most likely cover as well.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

It's just that people don't expect you to be a noob at top level, especially if you prove yourself to be good.

You ever saw a top level player besides SK92 rolling? No, never. People don't expect you to roll, so you roll. that's basically what I'm saying. Thanks Merce.

it's a different story with things that aren't really safe, like suddenly doing an uair even though dair is safer on shield (stupid example lol)

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

It's just that people don't expect you to be a noob at top level, especially if you prove yourself to be good.

You ever saw a top level player besides SK92 rolling? No, never. People don't expect you to roll, so you roll. that's basically what I'm saying. Thanks Merce.

it's a different story with things that aren't really safe, like suddenly doing an uair even though dair is safer on shield (stupid example lol)

Top players (ones like Ally or M2K) are more than prepared to deal w/ thing's as limited as rolling. So even though it's not regular used, doesn't mean certain players would simply let their guard down. There's this thing call "baiting" too.

Otherwise, your correct for those who aren't at THAT high skill level.

 

[Merce]

What you're pointing out is definitely a must-know for thought-processes in higher levels of play, but it's not something to be applied constantly. People learn, so doing noobish things can be a bad idea if you already did it once or twice... And remember: there are positions that take care of 'noobish' approaches, as well as normal approaches (like MK's tornado/fullhopped dairs), so the majority of the time it's a much better idea to not take your chances and risk falling into a disadvantaged position where the opponent will most likely cover as well.

Yup, you're right. There are often better options than baiting a particular response from your opponent by putting yourself at a disadvantage. Often times your opponent will be in the mindset that "I'm better than you" and expect you to apply the "noobish" behavior anyways, thus confirming their prediction.

Ideally: don't needlessly put yourself into a disadvantaged state.

And Xonar: check out some of Kewkky's kirby videos. He rolls appropriately in them... he knows what you're talking about.

 

[ZHMT]

I spam rolls with Lucario on wifi

Often combos into fsmash too, so I guess rolling = good

I hope everyone can sense the sarcasm here.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Possibly other than like Samus, Wario, or Yoshi, there are times when rolls are useful. Just don't spam it.

 

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

Metas front roll is SOOO GOOD
if its used as a mixup it can be a beast approach. especially against snake. Just run up and roll directly behind them. the lag is so little you get pretty much free anything if they do anything but shield
If they expect it its terrible though. so dont spam it

 

[t3h n00b]

Rolling isn't bad, but people who roll a lot usually have no clue what they're doing. I tend to roll at stupid times when I'm losing and an opponent has me figured out.

 

[Technologikall]

It appears that a Ganon who's spamming his backroll is faster than a Ganon who is running.

 

[Crow!]

The problem with rolls is that thier BEST case scenario is that you don't get hit. There's no explicit benefit to rolling unless your roll is so fast (or for ganon, that your ordinary travel speed is so slow) that it's actually faster than other methods of going where you go. Even then, it's a commitment to being at a particular place and time, which is questionable. For everyone else, running, jumping, or even walking are almost strictly better, and leaves you with more defensive options in case your opponent is decides to do stuff rather than just watch you.

Of course, high lag WiFi is another story.

 

[Jigglymaster]

I like it when people roll into my Jigglypuff so I can rest them out of it.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I think rolling is just as much a mindgame as any other move can be, and I don't think Ally and M2K are 'immune' to it (in fact, m2k rolls quite a lot against ally, and it works pretty nicely too)

 

[orange/xd]

Rolling is very easy to punish, especially at a high level of play. That's why you usually don't see many top level players rolling a lot.