Robin Tier Placement Discussion

[Delzethin]

Also know as the obligatory "Is Robin OP?" thread. >_>

What does everything think of Robin's eventual standing in the metagame? What tiers could he or she find themselves in? What implications would there be of those tier spots? Could Robin's apparent high learning curve keep him or her from being first on the list? Would a low tier Robin succeed less in garnering more fans for Fire Emblem?

Sure, it's way too early for any official talk, but now's our chance to lay the groundwork.

 

[LunethF]

"What does everything think of Robin's eventual standing in the metagame?"
It could be anywhere, we can't think of his "eventual standing" because tier lists change all the time and the game isn't currently out as you said.

"What tiers could he or she find themselves in?"
Any.

"What implications would there be of those tier spots?"
That they are considered a better or worse character than other characters, but this does not stop you from playing them if you like them.

"Could Robin's apparent high learning curve keep him or her from being first on the list?"
In general, characters with high learning curves are never considered the best of the best in any game. See: Makoto in SF

"Would a low tier Robin succeed less in garnering more fans for Fire Emblem?"
Not really, most people gain interest in the characters and series based on design and abilities, not tier placements. Robin's Tactician fighting style (swords and tomes) as well as his mage-like appearance may interest new players in finding out what the series is all about and if they'd want to play it. The same could be said with any character in Smash Bros.


I don't think Robin will be OP either, but that may change depending on what his tome/sword limits and cooldowns are like in the final game.

 

[•Col•]

Tier list discussion is by far the most idiotic thing anyone could bring up before a fighting game is even released considering it's based entirely on information we don't have.

The way the SSB Wiki describes it:

A tier list is decided based on the analysis of the following:

• The metagame and the effectiveness of the characters' strategies
• Each character's moveset and statistics
• Each character's matchup spread
• Each character's tournament results

We know absolutely nothing about the metagame.

We know practically nothing about Robin's moveset aside from a few of the animations for some of his/her attacks.

We don't know anything about how Robin will match up against other characters.

There are no tournament results to take data from.



Aside from the fact that we can't even make one.. The simple fact about caring about tier placement is stupid in itself considering that firstly, they can rapidly change depending on how an individual character's metagame develops. Go look at some of the placements of characters of Brawl's tier list compared to now.. And secondly, just play the damn character if you like him/her. If you I'm not saying you'll be out winning tournaments and all the prizepools, but you can still have fun playing the character while destroying 99.9% of the playerbase as long as you actually have the potential to be good at the game and you practice. And if you don't have the potential to become good or aren't dedicated, then, well.. Changing up which character you play based on tiers isn't going to magically make your tournament standings shoot up anyway, so why not at least play the character that you have fun with?

Keep 'tiers' talk out of our Robin forum.

 

[Hong]

Tier list discussion is by far the most idiotic thing anyone could bring up before a fighting game is even released considering it's based entirely on information we don't have.

The way the SSB Wiki describes it:



We know absolutely nothing about the metagame.

We know practically nothing about Robin's moveset aside from a few of the animations for some of his/her attacks.

We don't know anything about how Robin will match up against other characters.

There are no tournament results to take data from.



Aside from the fact that we can't even make one.. The simple fact about caring about tier placement is stupid in itself considering that firstly, they can rapidly change depending on how an individual character's metagame develops. Go look at some of the placements of characters of Brawl's tier list compared to now.. And secondly, just play the damn character if you like him/her. If you I'm not saying you'll be out winning tournaments and all the prizepools, but you can still have fun playing the character while destroying 99.9% of the playerbase as long as you actually have the potential to be good at the game and you practice. And if you don't have the potential to become good or aren't dedicated, then, well.. Changing up which character you play based on tiers isn't going to magically make your tournament standings shoot up anyway, so why not at least play the character that you have fun with?

Keep 'tiers' talk out of our Robin forum.

That's a bit of a needlessly averse response. @ Delzethin knows full well we won't know how well Robin will fare until the game will come out and only means to strike up a 100% healthy discussion. No need to denounce anything as "idiotic", and you are certainly in no position to make a statement about whether or not this kind of talk can occur on the Robin forum.

 

[•Col•]

That's a bit of a needlessly averse response. @ Delzethin knows full well we won't know how well Robin will fare until the game will come out and only means to strike up a 100% healthy discussion. No need to denounce anything as "idiotic", and you are certainly in no position to make a statement about whether or not this kind of talk can occur on the Robin forum.

If it was just a discussion about competitve viability, then I'd understand. Using the specific terming of 'tier placement' however.. No, I'm sorry, but I truly find that idiotic.

A tier list's purpose is an attempt to list how good a character would fair in a competitve/tournament setting.. So it makes sense that tournament results greatly influence a character's tier list standing. If a character consistently performs well in tournaments, then, well.. It probably means the character performs well in a tournament setting. Any tier list made without some hard tested 'experiments'(aka tournaments) and results, doesn't have any credence whatsoever. Otherwise any Joe Shmoe could make a tier list.. Doesn't mean that it's accurate.

Tier list placement doesn't determine how good a character is. How good a character is determines tier placement. That misconception is quite easy for a casual player or newcomer to make, I understand, but it's a case of confusion over cause and effect.


Putting all tier list talk aside, however.. There really isn't much at all to discuss in terms of Robin's competitive viability regardless. There are simply way too many unknown factors at this point. Robin may be the best character in the game. He may be far be the worst. Heck, we don't even know how his recovery will work yet. The biggest factor in determining how good a character is in the end.. Is the ability to outlive your opponent, which makes sense if you think about it. Whether that means that your character has much better killing power or survivability.. If you're character is naturally better at taking stocks off your opponent faster than they take stocks off of you, then that means that your character is more likely to win in a match and that they are probably a better character.

Going back to the 'we don't know how Robin's recovery works exactly' thing.. Recovery is a large part of that 'outliving your opponent' factor.. We've seen some of Robin's offensive power and you could potentially theorize about that.. But without knowing about his weight/recovery and whatnot.. Not knowing the survivability factor of him/her is half of the puzzle piece of determining how good Robin will be in comp.

 

[Hong]

If it was just a discussion about competitve viability, then I'd understand. Using the specific terming of 'tier placement' however.. No, I'm sorry, but I truly find that idiotic.

You are 100% okay with standing against the idea of tier lists prior to release. Delzethin's feelings won't be hurt.

That said, his thread is:
Not spam
Substantive content
Not flaming
Related to Robin

To declare his post as idiotic is, by extension, calling him an idiot. That is flaming, and festering a needlessly hostile environment. The rest of your post is mostly fine, but the moment you declare his views or thoughts as idiotic, is the moment you are attacking the thread creator.

I see every thread that is created here, as well as many other places on the forum. I don't bother with tier list discussion prior to release, and just like several other people who have seen this thread, none of us have needlessly declared it as idiotic. You aren't any special or in any position to do so. It's basic civility. You are free to argue the merit of tier list discussion, so long as you are civil.

 

[Morbi]

I apologize, I decided to main Robin... this means that she is going to be a low-tier character. No exceptions to that rule. Please understand.

Honestly, I could see the lack of recovery after using tomes being a huge detriment to her tier placement. Other than that, I speculate that most of her normals will be near worthless without the glorious Levin sword. She might be a skill-gate character like Zelda... but with more options!

 

[Folt]

I think Robin will be somewhere around mid-tier. A skilled player will likely work miracles with him, but learning how to use his spells and his Levin Sword at the right time and conserving their uses so you don't find yourself in a bind will be a long path. Depending on how strong and useful his spells and attacks are and how his recovery really works, he could potentially get to upper-mid tier or low tier too.

 

[「 Derk 」]

One of the key elements about the character is still unknown so it is hard to say how Robin will compare to the roster. Move regeneration will play a large role in tier listing early on until players learn how flexible Robin is. If moves have a long recover time then the character will be much harder to play than a character that can just use attacks at will and may result in a low tier. If the moves are recovered quickly then the character will be less limited and have a better shot in a higher tier placement. Having to pick and choose when to attack because it may be your last charge is something Robin players will have to constantly deal with. It will be fun watching how the Robin players switch between reserving tomes and using them to attack and punish.

As far as singles goes I don't think we know enough information yet to judge the character. In doubles I can see Robin being an amazing stock tank/support character. Having strong finishers and the ability to not only recover with Nosferatu but also put the character caught into a daze and allow your partner to punish them hard is pretty awesome. The slower pace of a stock tank would fit Robin perfectly and allow him/her to save tomes for finishing opponents and throw in support to their partner when needed.

 

[Raziek]

I apologize, I decided to main Robin... this means that she is going to be a low-tier character. No exceptions to that rule. Please understand.

Please drop Robin.

In all seriousness, I hope Robin will be at least upper mid-tier. In my ideal world, like 3rd or 4th best.

I don't like playing characters that have outright abusive stuff, or are straight up too strong, nor am I willing to live the low-tier struggle.

That's why I play Marth in Brawl. Things aren't looking great for him in Smash 4 though, so I have high hopes for Robin.

 

[CommanderRin]

I apologize, I decided to main Robin... this means that she is going to be a low-tier character. No exceptions to that rule. Please understand.

Honestly, I could see the lack of recovery after using tomes being a huge detriment to her tier placement. Other than that, I speculate that most of her normals will be near worthless without the glorious Levin sword. She might be a skill-gate character like Zelda... but with more options!

Thank you!

I have a thing for low tiers, especially if it's a character I love.

The intimacy that must be acquired between the character and players is romantic huehuehue

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

Thank you!

I have a thing for low tiers, especially if it's a character I love.

The intimacy that must be acquired between the character and players is romantic huehuehue

You're sig coincidentally has all the same elements at Robin's disposal.... or is it a coincidence? O.o

I don't usually base my choices out of tiers. I base it out of love for the character. My top 3 in my sig are my favorite characters in Nintendo universe. Ike because he's badass in FE. Marth because he's the father of FE. And Link because LoZ is a thing of beauty.

 

[CommanderRin]

You're sig coincidentally has all the same elements at Robin's disposal.... or is it a coincidence? O.o

I don't usually base my choices out of tiers. I base it out of love for the character. My top 3 in my sig are my favorite characters in Nintendo universe. Ike because he's badass in FE. Marth because he's the father of FE. And Link because LoZ is a thing of beauty.

Never actually noticed that the characters in my signature represented that xD

I have the same mindset as you, though I prefer when my favorites are low tier because I'm selfish and I want to be the only one that uses them lol.



Usually my favorites aren't low tier...

 

[Hong]

Please drop Robin.

In all seriousness, I hope Robin will be at least upper mid-tier. In my ideal world, like 3rd or 4th best.

I don't like playing characters that have outright abusive stuff, or are straight up too strong, nor am I willing to live the low-tier struggle.

That's why I play Marth in Brawl. Things aren't looking great for him in Smash 4 though, so I have high hopes for Robin.

I know the feeling. It's how I like life in general; strength and efficiency, but a few rough edges to keep me honest.

Personally, the durability system actually interests me. Resource management is a character drawback, but it is still something that contributes to the character dynamic. Just something else to keep the mind engaged.

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

I know the feeling. It's how I like life in general; strength and efficiency, but a few rough edges to keep me honest.

Personally, the durability system actually interests me. Resource management is a character drawback, but it is still something that contributes to the character dynamic. Just something else to keep the mind engaged.

That's how I feel about it too. Having to decide what to use and how to use it makes the character more fun even though it is a drawback. He's a character that really requires you to pay attention to what he's doing and if you can't, you'll probably have a hard time succeeding with him.

 

[RPGatWill]

"What does everything think of Robin's eventual standing in the metagame?"
Probably not the best, but likely not bad either. Speculation here, but people who can manage his resources well will likely manage really well. However, with the Levin sword and tome-breaker mechanic, good Robin's will be targeted and destroyed whenever those go down.

"What tiers could he or she find themselves in?"
I want to say there won't be tiers this time. Customizable moves I hope will make any character viable in multiple ways. However I know that's a fantasy.

"What implications would there be of those tier spots?"
That people could start playing their favorite character instead of most OP one.

"Could Robin's apparent high learning curve keep him or her from being first on the list?"
Not necessarily, but probably. With Resource management it can drag on your desire to play them, and why play him when you can play someone that you DON'T have to manage every aspect of carefully?

"Would a low tier Robin succeed less in garnering more fans for Fire Emblem?"
Nope. Besides, with Awakening getting two reps, I think more people are going to wonder what the fuss is about and buy the next game or Awakening and THEN the next game once they're hooked.

 

[ミスティック Speed]

Imo, Palutena looks wayyy more scary to face then Robin.
But who can tell till the game's out though? This needs to be put on hold until there's been an official analysis.

 

[Scare_Crow]

Hey guys idk about you but I am very excited to see how Robin will play in the upcoming game! So i decided that since the game is almost out, where do you think Robin will be placing in tiers? Personally from what we have seen so far, i think he/she can be in around the B tier. Also, consider the fact that Sakurai said that he will be balancing characters out, so tiers will be less separated. Just wanted to see what you guys think!

 

[Jigglymaster]

For a character that we ourselves haven't even been able to get a hand on yet, its really hard to say. We don't exactly know whats good or whats bad in this game. Movesets have proven that they're not what it takes to be top or bottom, for example Fox/Peach/Jigglypuff/Falcon were all good in Melee, but were below average in Brawl. So really, we have no idea where Robin will be on the tier list, your guess is just about as good as mine.

 

[Mr. Johan]

We won't know anything until all the characters are revealed and we have an idea on what everyone can do. Donkey Kong could do all right against the higher tiers in Brawl but was cut down thanks solely to DDD, after all.

As for what we know right now, Robin's slow running speed and sub-par-speed standard moves don't look so hot, so those are obvious marks against him. But again, we won't know until we put everything into practice.

 

[Hong]

@ Scare_Crow
We already have a thread on Robin's tier list discussion, so I've merged yours into it.

 

[20YY SS | Saiblade]

I'm guessing he'll be S tier.

 

[.Shìkì]

One of the key elements about the character is still unknown so it is hard to say how Robin will compare to the roster. Move regeneration will play a large role in tier listing early on until players learn how flexible Robin is. If moves have a long recover time then the character will be much harder to play than a character that can just use attacks at will and may result in a low tier. If the moves are recovered quickly then the character will be less limited and have a better shot in a higher tier placement. Having to pick and choose when to attack because it may be your last charge is something Robin players will have to constantly deal with. It will be fun watching how the Robin players switch between reserving tomes and using them to attack and punish.

As far as singles goes I don't think we know enough information yet to judge the character. In doubles I can see Robin being an amazing stock tank/support character. Having strong finishers and the ability to not only recover with Nosferatu but also put the character caught into a daze and allow your partner to punish them hard is pretty awesome. The slower pace of a stock tank would fit Robin perfectly and allow him/her to save tomes for finishing opponents and throw in support to their partner when needed.

Pretty much this. Also, i love your signature. Dark Zelda costume all the way!

 

[Fire Tactician]

One thing that his viability hinges on is what happens when he tries to use an attack that has run out. Does he do a failure animation like Wario when his Wario Waft has no charge? That could be dangerous since Wario has an obvious indicator if his fart is charged and players won't use it unless he's glowing, but Robin has no such indicators visible. Hopefully the move won't even activate or he'll perform a powered down version of it and not leave himself completely open.

 

[pinkdeaf1]

One thing that his viability hinges on is what happens when he tries to use an attack that has run out.

I wouldn't go so far as to say this is one of the things his viability hinges upon, but you bring up a good point.

I'm assuming that the ending lags and start-up frames on Robin's moves won't be too slow or long that he can't act while a projectile is still taking effect (primarily arcfire). I think Robin will be B+ or A- tier.

 

[Reila]

I am really hoping Robin isn't top tier. Top tier characters are usually extremely overused :/ Mid tier would be the ideal imo.

 

[Fire Tactician]

I am really hoping Robin isn't top tier. Top tier characters are usually extremely overused :/ Mid tier would be the ideal imo.

Ha ha, I know what you mean. I don't typically like using the ones that everyone else uses, so it felt so odd after the Robin trailer. On GameFAQs, most people either bashed or downright rejected Robin, so I was one of his few real supporters. Once his trailer came, I was suddenly overwhelmed with people declaring him as their main. Seriously? I was there first!

I wouldn't want to nerf him just to be a hipster, but mid-high would be appropriate- he'd be a solid character that isn't the most broken but is still good.

 

[JanitorOfHyrule]

I know its a little to early to decide but this will just be guested on observation and speculation i think he will be mid tier

 

[Hong]

@ JanitorOfHyrule
We already have a thread for Robin's potential tier placement, so I've moved your post here.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Yeah, I'm thinking mid tier myself as well, albeit upper-mid. Among the newcomers, I wanna say he's inferior to Greninja, Shulk, Palutena, Miss Fit, and even Lucina, with Robin being around the same level as Pac-Man, Rosalina, and the Mii Fighters, and all of them being better than Villager, Mega Man, and Little Mac.

Average movement and average attack speed can only carry you so far unless those attacks have ludicrous damage output.

 

[Zoa]

New poster here on the Robin boards, so hi everyone. I've perused several of the threads, though I've never seen one related to Arcthunder's potential applications. From the Robin trailer we can clearly see it used twice. One on Wii Fit Trainer and once on Zelda. Both clearly show a considerable amount of hitstun and trapping the opposing character in place similar to ZSS' Paralyzer (though it doesn't use the paralysis effect). I was curious on everyone's thoughts on it as Robin's metagame evolves. Just for fun speculation.

 

[Weavile's Wrath]

I think Robin will be in the middle of the pack, but there are so many things we don't know about him. Do his times replenish if he is KOed? Things like that. His Up-B, Elwind, is a tome, so if he runs out of uses of his Up-B, he's toast. Also, Sakurai made the Bronze Sword sound really weak, which doesn't help.

 

[Fire Tactician]

I think Robin will be in the middle of the pack, but there are so many things we don't know about him. Do his times replenish if he is KOed? Things like that. His Up-B, Elwind, is a tome, so if he runs out of uses of his Up-B, he's toast. Also, Sakurai made the Bronze Sword sound really weak, which doesn't help.

Today's gameplay seems to suggest that his tomes are much less of a problem- they recharge in about 7 seconds! A player or two said that they never went to use a tome that had expired. Also, don't discount the Bronze Sword- someone mentioned that since it has bad knockback, it would actually be optimal for combos.

 

[Weavile's Wrath]

Today's gameplay seems to suggest that his tomes are much less of a problem- they recharge in about 7 seconds! A player or two said that they never went to use a tome that had expired. Also, don't discount the Bronze Sword- someone mentioned that since it has bad knockback, it would actually be optimal for combos.

Where is this info from? I'm not discrediting it - just curious. If this is true, which I'm hoping it is, then low-high tier maybe?

 

[Fire Tactician]

Where is this info from? I'm not discrediting it - just curious. If this is true, which I'm hoping it is, then low-high tier maybe?

Head on over to the 3DS Smash discussion board to see someone give their opinions about the latest Japanese demo. They described Robin as "fantastic" and he seemed to be easier to pick up than expected.

 

[Ultima777]

Robin Seems like he is good. https://twitter.com/WeinhofferBen

 

[MindlessFire]

Robin Seems like he is good. https://twitter.com/WeinhofferBen

Yeah I posted links to Ben's tweets describing his experience with Robin in chronological order:

1. https://twitter.com/WeinhofferBen/status/508445512778149888

2. https://twitter.com/WeinhofferBen/status/508449041165066241

3. https://twitter.com/WeinhofferBen/status/508449249227706368

4. https://twitter.com/WeinhofferBen/status/508449930667884546

5. https://twitter.com/WeinhofferBen/status/508451484682694656

6. https://twitter.com/WeinhofferBen/status/508455865213808640

7. https://twitter.com/WeinhofferBen/status/508457142446473218

8. https://twitter.com/WeinhofferBen/status/508458310027444225

9. https://twitter.com/WeinhofferBen/status/508465458895659008

10. https://twitter.com/WeinhofferBen/status/508467759496593409

11. https://twitter.com/WeinhofferBen/status/508470964246806528

12. https://twitter.com/WeinhofferBen/status/508474862030295040

13. https://twitter.com/WeinhofferBen/status/508478266286833664

Spoiler

Expect Robin to be NERFED in the Wii U version.

 

[Logsmash]

With the way Pokemon Trainer had a sort of "resource management" system to deal with, I wonder if or how they've designed Robin's so that /she doesn't spend a portion of the game just trying to survive the weaker of the two. It looks like both her/his magic-based attacks and Levin Sword attacks are fairly versatile, but I'm hoping that there are certain inherent advantages to both playstyles. That way you hopefully won't see people just spamming magic to get to sword, or running away until magic recharges.

I feel like it'll make top-level matches with Robin more interesting to watch. Seeing a player who has mastered a mix of both sword and spell abilities would increase the number of ways Robin can respond to threats, and make the opponent work that much harder for the stock. I don't know, I get the sense that a well-played Robin will be pretty entertaining to watch, regardless of what "tier" s/he ends up in.

 

[MindlessFire]

It takes 7 seconds for a Tome to respawn. In context it's the same amount it takes to reload a M240B in CoD and you can also use your Pistol at the same time it's reloading.

 

[Delzethin]

Even despite this news, though, I have a feeling Robin won't ever sit at the very top of the tier list. With what looks to be a high learning curve (albeit one that isn't a problem for high level players), it'll be harder for there to be as widespread of success when Robin looks to be harder for new players to pick up and immediately be good with. Compare that to Meta Knight in Brawl.

It's hard to say this early, but Robin definitely looks worthy of A or S tier (whichever they go with for the highest), even if not atop the list. This is the equivalent of doing power rankings the week before the season opens, though, basing everything on preseason stats. We're bound to see some unexpected turns in the first six months or so, and Robin could easily fall to B Tier like Dedede did once people figured out how to fight against him.

It'd be really interesting if Robin was first overall, though. A metagame where the best character actively encourages playing smart?