Raziek
Charging Limit All Day
So, tonight I had a training session with Dragon Tactician, and in doing so, I went over a lot of important Robin concepts. I have compiled those notes for others to read, as I think people will find them useful.
They're not exactly organized, but I'm too lazy to do otherwise right now.
They're not exactly organized, but I'm too lazy to do otherwise right now.
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:25 PM
DT, do you want specific critique, or just looking to play?
CI | DragonTactician - Yesterday at 11:26 PM
Specific critique, if you don't mind. I'm trying to improve.
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:26 PM
Sure. I'll keep an eye on things. I will also probably play Corrin/Cloud to test specific skills/situations
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:29 PM
ok, DT, so first thing that comes to mind w/ movement is you full-hop a lot for no reason
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:29 PM
Robin's not got amazing air mobility and has poor options attacking below her
So if you are full-hopping it should be because your opponent is above you
CI | DragonTactician - Yesterday at 11:29 PM
So I should be short-hopping
?
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:29 PM
Full-hopping when your opponent is grounded only invites attack
Generally, yes
There are certain situations where that's not the case, but as a rule of thumb you want to try to minimze how often you give your opponent a chance to get underneath you and into your zone of control
And full-hopping lets a lot of characters simply dash into you and take space
especially if you aren't fastfalling
CI | DragonTactician - Yesterday at 11:32 PM
Something I noticed was that you use Thunder a lot more than Elthunder/Arcthunder and you actually use Thoron occasionally in matches (which is something I'm loathe to do). Is Thunder just easier to wall out with, and do you use Thoron as a surprise attack or something else entirely?
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:32 PM
There's a few reasons for that
First and most easily explained, using Thoron is largely a ditto-specific thing
In most match-ups, you won't use it very often
it's generally only when you are being counter-camped or they have passed ~130% and Arcthunder is no longer necessary
AlmostDoug - Yesterday at 11:33 PM
yeah Thoron feels very MU specific, I like it for Lucas, haven't played with other MUs much
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:33 PM
Related to that, that's also why I am using less Arcthunder than I would normally
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:34 PM
Arcthunder gets clanked by literally any of Robin's other projectiles, so it's largely ineffective unless you are right on top of them
And Robin doesn't need to be in that space in the ditto most of the time
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:35 PM
As for using more Thunder, again, same thing. It's a quick disruptive poke that challenges people trying to simply run into your space horizontally, and nets you 4.5 a pop
Robin can't punish it unless you're practically point blank, so that again tends to vary by matchup
at higher percents, simply displacing your opponent from the ground is often valuable enough to make it worth doing
since that lets you move forward and take space
much like Sheik needles, albeit shorter range
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:37 PM
Robin is all about controlling space and preventing your opponent from returning to neutral whenever possible, and the Thunder variants are one of the most core tools to doing that, and they all fill different roles
CI | DragonTactician - Yesterday at 11:37 PM
What would be bad MU's to use Thunder in?
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:37 PM
Generally speaking? Characters fast enough to reactively shield out of a dash and then punish you for it
CI | DragonTactician - Yesterday at 11:37 PM
So Sonic, Falcon, Shiek, Mewtwo... That range?
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:37 PM
Depending on the severity of the punish, it's often not worth the risk
yes and no, as dash start-up is also important to consider
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:38 PM
if the oppoennt has a slow initial dash animation, you can thunder them on reaction before they can shield
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:38 PM
I actually find it fairly effective against Falcon players, but not so much against someone like Sheik
Against those characters it is generally a crutch option though, and you'll want to have Arcthunder loaded whenever possible
It is much more useful against slower characters
CI | DragonTactician - Yesterday at 11:39 PM
And one other thing, I noticed you grabbing your books and immediately getting rid of them. Is there a reason for that, or am I just leaving myself too open?
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:40 PM
Mostly the latter. Depending on the situation and the character I'm fighting, I will often hold onto a book and simply use it as a threat, until it respawns
They're incredibly powerful defensive tools
But since in the ditto I don't need them to control space as much, I'm mainly just looking to convert them to damage
CI | DragonTactician - Yesterday at 11:40 PM
So how would I stop leaving myself that open? How and where am I supposed to cover my defenses?
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:41 PM
In that situation it's primarily a matter of staying grounded. Every time you jump, you (out of necessity) create a situation where, eventually, you must land
and that by definition can be punished
You have to be careful not to give the option too much respect, mind you
CI | DragonTactician - Yesterday at 11:42 PM
So I want to be staying grounded, even though Robin's run speed is that low?
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:42 PM
You don't even want to be running
Walking, even
Walking lets you react much more quickly and prevents you from being hit out of dash start0up
CI | DragonTactician - Yesterday at 11:43 PM
So I should be walking to get around?
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:43 PM
Generally speaking, facing down another Robin with a tome, I would be looking to charge my own Thunder to encourage them to approach me and use the tome
Generally? No. Walking with Robin is crazy situation-specific
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:44 PM
90% of the time I am short-hopping to move around
AlmostDoug - Yesterday at 11:44 PM
walking is the safest method for all characters to maneuver the stage, technically
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:44 PM
^
AlmostDoug - Yesterday at 11:44 PM
but it's not always necessary safety
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:44 PM
It's much more powerful on a faster walking character like Marth or Fox
Walk -> D-tilt was Brawl Marth's entire gameplan, lol
AlmostDoug - Yesterday at 11:45 PM
Marth walks like a drag queen
**** is powerful
CI | DragonTactician - Yesterday at 11:45 PM
May I see if I understand this?
To maneuver around the stage, I should be short-hopping so that I don't give up space, and I should be walking if I need to approach grounded?
AlmostDoug - Yesterday at 11:46 PM
keep in mind whether you even need to maneuver the stage, as well
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:46 PM
Generally, yes. Most of the time you will be either completely stationary (and waiting to catch a reaction), short-hopping, or walking. Dashing is primarily used to claim space when safety is no issue
AlmostDoug - Yesterday at 11:46 PM
always important, especially in campy situations
Shope - Yesterday at 11:47 PM
me
CI | DragonTactician - Yesterday at 11:47 PM
So when I've launched them offstage I can run forward...
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:47 PM
Learning the value of stage position is a very important skill
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:47 PM
Sometimes just walking forward is a victory
CI | DragonTactician - Yesterday at 11:48 PM
Walking keeps all of my offensive options open as well.
AlmostDoug - Yesterday at 11:48 PM
yes
AlmostDoug - Yesterday at 11:48 PM
that is one of the most important parts
CI | DragonTactician - Yesterday at 11:48 PM
So should I run forward to engage in ledge battles or even do a ledge trump in the first place? How should battles over ledge control be handled?
AlmostDoug - Yesterday at 11:48 PM
situational, I'd say, Dragon
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:49 PM
That's an incredibly difficult question to answer, yeah
Depends on the match-up
There are essentially 3 choices
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:49 PM
Arcfire the ledge-distance (and cover their ledge option)
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:49 PM
AT the ledge distance (trump cover)
Or aggressive offstage
AlmostDoug - Yesterday at 11:49 PM
Robin has good trapping moves and a charge move so I like to not bother with ledge as much
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:50 PM
Which one is best depends very very strongly on the matchup, how good your opponents offstage options are, and the risk-reward of what happens if the situation goes south
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:51 PM
Aggressively edge-guarding MK and Duck Hunt can both be correct decisions because they have bad airspeed and short range, but the risk/reward is way worse against MK
because if you mess up vs. MK now you're in a way worse situation than if you messed up vs. Duck Hunt
There's a lot of factors to consider
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:51 PM
Not really a catch-all answer for that one
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:54 PM
Cloud is one of my favorite characters to expose bad defense with
Alright, so I've got a laundry list of things to go over just from the situations encountered there
First, you have all 3 of the most common problems I see from Robin mains defensively
1) You use Arcfire in situations where your opponent can avoid it trivially by jumping and punish you.
2) You rely too heavily on airdodge to escape juggle situations, and you always land inwards towards the stage
3) You attempted to jump on-to the stage with your double jump instead of going to the ledge
Now, to go into further detail on all of those
First, regarding Arcfire. In some matchups, you will almost never use the move IN NEUTRAL
Cloud is one of them, because his dash speed is absurd and he can punish you for free for it
he can also simply ignore Arcfire and just go charge limit
Arcfire is best used when your opponents AVAILABLE options have already been limited to ones that Arcfire can cover
Examples: When they have used their double-jump and must land either ON Arcfire or at a safe distance away, it is safe to use it
When you are under a platform, it is significantly safer
When they are trapped by the ledge and are in shield, it is much safer
The idea is to use it in situations where the risk is minimal
In neutral it is slow and easily punishable due to the start-up
It is a trapping tool that shines when your opponent is already at disadvantage
It is not good at creating disadvantage on its own
That make sense?
CI | DragonTactician - Yesterday at 11:59 PM
A little bit.
March 31, 2016
CI | DragonTactician - Today at 12:00 AM
So Arcfire is in itself not a good wall-out tool?
Raziek - Today at 12:00 AM
Not always, but that depends on the matchup
Against like, Ganon, Dedede, Bowser, yeah, it's ****ing fantastic
mash that ****
because they have poor mobility and its hard for them to punish
Raziek - Today at 12:01 AM
But most top tiers evade Arcfire for free in neutral (Sheik, ZSS, Cloud, Diddy, etc)(
Raziek - Today at 12:02 AM
It's very contextual and heavily depends on the opponents mobility and punish options
CI | DragonTactician - Today at 12:03 AM
What are the best options in neutral? I know I use jab a lot (though I need to get better on using fire finisher and not wind finisher) and it seems like Thunder/Elthunder also work, but is that also MU specific?
Raziek - Today at 12:04 AM
Jab, Elthunder and Fair form the core of Robin's neutral game
everything else is accessory or situational
You could play the character with those 3 moves alone if needed
The core concept of Robin's neutral gameplan is to do one of 2 things
Force them to take to the air, or deplete their shield and claim stage position via projectile harassment
as soon as either of those objectives is fulfilled, Robin is winning
The reason for this is because Robin's toolkit has so much of its power concentrated into Air-to-air and trapping landings
Raziek - Today at 12:06 AM
her tilts are garbage, but her aerials are insane
So if you force your opponent to leave the ground, they're forced to deal with the strongest part of Robin's kit
Fair being the primary tool in that regard
Raziek - Today at 12:07 AM
Elthunder is your core horizontal space control tool, with Jab being your primary defensive tool for when they have closed the gap to within a certain distance
once you start branching out from there, the next most important tool to add is Arcthunder
Arcthunder is Robin's best projectile bar none
It is the "My turn" move
The second Arcthunder becomes active, your opponent loses their 'turn' to take the offense
they must evade it, and if they block or are hit by it, Robin gets AT LEAST to take space, and often gets a very lucrative grab punish
The move is so powerful because it fulfills this role on both offense AND defense
CI | DragonTactician - Today at 12:09 AM
It helps Robin get out of the disadvantage and back into neutral?
Raziek - Today at 12:09 AM
If someone is coming in on the ground and they want to shield, Arcthunder means now it's your turn, if you get it out in time
Not just back into neutral, but straight into advantage!
Raziek - Today at 12:10 AM
Arcthunder is a total reversal of control, and that's why it is so powerful
Now, to talk about the other 2 points I mentioned
First, one of the most important concepts to learn is that SOMETIMES you just have to give up space because there is no option that 'wins' in a given scenario
In those situations where I waited under you with Uair and caught your airdodge, there is no winning option if you try to land inwards
either you get hit, or you airdodge (land) and get u-tilted during your lag
Your only option is to defensively Elwind or Dair (both extremely risky), or concede that Cloud controls that space, and go to the ledge instead to work your way back from there
Related to that point, I F-Smashed you in the face because you got greedy on recovery
Raziek - Today at 12:14 AM
Trying to double-jump over the ledge is like the scene in Star Wars where Obi-wan has the high ground
You might think you're hot ****, but approaching with that option is just so easy to punish it's not even funny
Because they can just wait and shield, or simply hit you from outside your effective range
CI | DragonTactician - Today at 12:15 AM
I've not seen Star Wars, so my apologies for not getting the reference.
Raziek - Today at 12:15 AM
and that again comes back to knowing when a situation has no winning option, and you must concede space
sec
https://youtu.be/izcL3dH5hWc?t=41s
that one
AlmostDoug - Today at 12:17 AM
amazing
Heartly - Today at 12:17 AM
LOL that's actually a great reference to make
CI | DragonTactician - Today at 12:17 AM
Yeah, I feel that.
Heartly - Today at 12:17 AM
Props
Raziek - Today at 12:24 AM
Again, same thing
at the end I d-tilted you because you tried to land in and airdodge
easy punish
CI | DragonTactician - Today at 12:25 AM
I was trying to go for the ledge more often in that match. It actually didn't seem to me that I was losing that much control by doing so.
Raziek - Today at 12:25 AM
Yeah, that's my point, lol
Raziek - Today at 12:26 AM
Going into a no-win situation is worse than conceding to a less advantaged one
Ok, so talking about stage positioning some more
At the start you stayed on the platform and charged
that is the worst possible decision other than jumping to the top platform lol
Because immediately you let me get underneath you
On tri-plat stages like BF, DL and Lylat, where you begin the match on a platform
your first course of action should be immediately getting to the ground
usually with run-off or fall-through Arcfire, because it is very difficult to punish from starting positions and has huge payoff against overly aggressive opponents
CI | DragonTactician - Today at 12:33 AM
What would be a mix-up for that, if people know you're going to do something like that?
Raziek - Today at 12:34 AM
Depends on the character, but generally a long-jump over the arcfire trajectory
Which is otherwise stupid unsafe because that's straight into 'you gonna get faired' territory
CI | DragonTactician - Today at 12:35 AM
Is it still a good option if they expect it?
Raziek - Today at 12:35 AM
Can be. Not always
Again, varies by how hard they can punish you for doing it
Heartly - Today at 12:35 AM
The platform makes it hard for them to punish from jumping over arcfire
Raziek - Today at 12:35 AM
^
The middle ground option is fall-through Thunder charge
which gives you defensive positioning, platform cover
CI | DragonTactician - Today at 12:44 AM
What are the best defensive options when landing?
Assuming I'm being juggled.
Raziek - Today at 12:45 AM
I talked about this before, but in most cases you simply have to give up the space
Robin's bad at landing
Defensive Elwind can be a ood option if they've already taken to the air and have poor options for clanking it (it's bad vs. multi-hit uairs, for example)
Heartly - Today at 12:46 AM
What if, say, you try to jump but their up air eats your jump and you're above centre stage?
CI | DragonTactician - Today at 12:46 AM
Would fastfall be a good option at any time?
Raziek - Today at 12:46 AM
If you've got no double jump and you're above center stage you should be trying to get to the ledge
It can be, but pretty much necessitates you ALSO have your double jump as well
Robin's fastfall speed alone isn't enough of a momentum shift
CI | DragonTactician - Today at 12:48 AM
Is b-reversing Thunder charge an option during juggling situations, or is it really just best to DI toward the ledge and hope he doesn't go offstage to fight you
?
Raziek - Today at 12:49 AM
That is the other main option, yes, but you have to do it at a position where they can't simply cover both options
it's a situational mix-up, not a primary landing tool
CI | DragonTactician - Today at 12:50 AM
OK, thanks.
Raziek - Today at 12:50 AM
Ok, let's do 2 more, we've been at this longer than I planned since I ended up explaining a lot of stuff, haha
DT, do you want specific critique, or just looking to play?
CI | DragonTactician - Yesterday at 11:26 PM
Specific critique, if you don't mind. I'm trying to improve.
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:26 PM
Sure. I'll keep an eye on things. I will also probably play Corrin/Cloud to test specific skills/situations
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:29 PM
ok, DT, so first thing that comes to mind w/ movement is you full-hop a lot for no reason
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:29 PM
Robin's not got amazing air mobility and has poor options attacking below her
So if you are full-hopping it should be because your opponent is above you
CI | DragonTactician - Yesterday at 11:29 PM
So I should be short-hopping
?
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:29 PM
Full-hopping when your opponent is grounded only invites attack
Generally, yes
There are certain situations where that's not the case, but as a rule of thumb you want to try to minimze how often you give your opponent a chance to get underneath you and into your zone of control
And full-hopping lets a lot of characters simply dash into you and take space
especially if you aren't fastfalling
CI | DragonTactician - Yesterday at 11:32 PM
Something I noticed was that you use Thunder a lot more than Elthunder/Arcthunder and you actually use Thoron occasionally in matches (which is something I'm loathe to do). Is Thunder just easier to wall out with, and do you use Thoron as a surprise attack or something else entirely?
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:32 PM
There's a few reasons for that
First and most easily explained, using Thoron is largely a ditto-specific thing
In most match-ups, you won't use it very often
it's generally only when you are being counter-camped or they have passed ~130% and Arcthunder is no longer necessary
AlmostDoug - Yesterday at 11:33 PM
yeah Thoron feels very MU specific, I like it for Lucas, haven't played with other MUs much
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:33 PM
Related to that, that's also why I am using less Arcthunder than I would normally
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:34 PM
Arcthunder gets clanked by literally any of Robin's other projectiles, so it's largely ineffective unless you are right on top of them
And Robin doesn't need to be in that space in the ditto most of the time
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:35 PM
As for using more Thunder, again, same thing. It's a quick disruptive poke that challenges people trying to simply run into your space horizontally, and nets you 4.5 a pop
Robin can't punish it unless you're practically point blank, so that again tends to vary by matchup
at higher percents, simply displacing your opponent from the ground is often valuable enough to make it worth doing
since that lets you move forward and take space
much like Sheik needles, albeit shorter range
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:37 PM
Robin is all about controlling space and preventing your opponent from returning to neutral whenever possible, and the Thunder variants are one of the most core tools to doing that, and they all fill different roles
CI | DragonTactician - Yesterday at 11:37 PM
What would be bad MU's to use Thunder in?
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:37 PM
Generally speaking? Characters fast enough to reactively shield out of a dash and then punish you for it
CI | DragonTactician - Yesterday at 11:37 PM
So Sonic, Falcon, Shiek, Mewtwo... That range?
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:37 PM
Depending on the severity of the punish, it's often not worth the risk
yes and no, as dash start-up is also important to consider
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:38 PM
if the oppoennt has a slow initial dash animation, you can thunder them on reaction before they can shield
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:38 PM
I actually find it fairly effective against Falcon players, but not so much against someone like Sheik
Against those characters it is generally a crutch option though, and you'll want to have Arcthunder loaded whenever possible
It is much more useful against slower characters
CI | DragonTactician - Yesterday at 11:39 PM
And one other thing, I noticed you grabbing your books and immediately getting rid of them. Is there a reason for that, or am I just leaving myself too open?
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:40 PM
Mostly the latter. Depending on the situation and the character I'm fighting, I will often hold onto a book and simply use it as a threat, until it respawns
They're incredibly powerful defensive tools
But since in the ditto I don't need them to control space as much, I'm mainly just looking to convert them to damage
CI | DragonTactician - Yesterday at 11:40 PM
So how would I stop leaving myself that open? How and where am I supposed to cover my defenses?
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:41 PM
In that situation it's primarily a matter of staying grounded. Every time you jump, you (out of necessity) create a situation where, eventually, you must land
and that by definition can be punished
You have to be careful not to give the option too much respect, mind you
CI | DragonTactician - Yesterday at 11:42 PM
So I want to be staying grounded, even though Robin's run speed is that low?
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:42 PM
You don't even want to be running
Walking, even
Walking lets you react much more quickly and prevents you from being hit out of dash start0up
CI | DragonTactician - Yesterday at 11:43 PM
So I should be walking to get around?
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:43 PM
Generally speaking, facing down another Robin with a tome, I would be looking to charge my own Thunder to encourage them to approach me and use the tome
Generally? No. Walking with Robin is crazy situation-specific
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:44 PM
90% of the time I am short-hopping to move around
AlmostDoug - Yesterday at 11:44 PM
walking is the safest method for all characters to maneuver the stage, technically
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:44 PM
^
AlmostDoug - Yesterday at 11:44 PM
but it's not always necessary safety
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:44 PM
It's much more powerful on a faster walking character like Marth or Fox
Walk -> D-tilt was Brawl Marth's entire gameplan, lol
AlmostDoug - Yesterday at 11:45 PM
Marth walks like a drag queen
**** is powerful
CI | DragonTactician - Yesterday at 11:45 PM
May I see if I understand this?
To maneuver around the stage, I should be short-hopping so that I don't give up space, and I should be walking if I need to approach grounded?
AlmostDoug - Yesterday at 11:46 PM
keep in mind whether you even need to maneuver the stage, as well
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:46 PM
Generally, yes. Most of the time you will be either completely stationary (and waiting to catch a reaction), short-hopping, or walking. Dashing is primarily used to claim space when safety is no issue
AlmostDoug - Yesterday at 11:46 PM
always important, especially in campy situations
Shope - Yesterday at 11:47 PM
me
CI | DragonTactician - Yesterday at 11:47 PM
So when I've launched them offstage I can run forward...
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:47 PM
Learning the value of stage position is a very important skill
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:47 PM
Sometimes just walking forward is a victory
CI | DragonTactician - Yesterday at 11:48 PM
Walking keeps all of my offensive options open as well.
AlmostDoug - Yesterday at 11:48 PM
yes
AlmostDoug - Yesterday at 11:48 PM
that is one of the most important parts
CI | DragonTactician - Yesterday at 11:48 PM
So should I run forward to engage in ledge battles or even do a ledge trump in the first place? How should battles over ledge control be handled?
AlmostDoug - Yesterday at 11:48 PM
situational, I'd say, Dragon
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:49 PM
That's an incredibly difficult question to answer, yeah
Depends on the match-up
There are essentially 3 choices
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:49 PM
Arcfire the ledge-distance (and cover their ledge option)
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:49 PM
AT the ledge distance (trump cover)
Or aggressive offstage
AlmostDoug - Yesterday at 11:49 PM
Robin has good trapping moves and a charge move so I like to not bother with ledge as much
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:50 PM
Which one is best depends very very strongly on the matchup, how good your opponents offstage options are, and the risk-reward of what happens if the situation goes south
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:51 PM
Aggressively edge-guarding MK and Duck Hunt can both be correct decisions because they have bad airspeed and short range, but the risk/reward is way worse against MK
because if you mess up vs. MK now you're in a way worse situation than if you messed up vs. Duck Hunt
There's a lot of factors to consider
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:51 PM
Not really a catch-all answer for that one
Raziek - Yesterday at 11:54 PM
Cloud is one of my favorite characters to expose bad defense with
Alright, so I've got a laundry list of things to go over just from the situations encountered there
First, you have all 3 of the most common problems I see from Robin mains defensively
1) You use Arcfire in situations where your opponent can avoid it trivially by jumping and punish you.
2) You rely too heavily on airdodge to escape juggle situations, and you always land inwards towards the stage
3) You attempted to jump on-to the stage with your double jump instead of going to the ledge
Now, to go into further detail on all of those
First, regarding Arcfire. In some matchups, you will almost never use the move IN NEUTRAL
Cloud is one of them, because his dash speed is absurd and he can punish you for free for it
he can also simply ignore Arcfire and just go charge limit
Arcfire is best used when your opponents AVAILABLE options have already been limited to ones that Arcfire can cover
Examples: When they have used their double-jump and must land either ON Arcfire or at a safe distance away, it is safe to use it
When you are under a platform, it is significantly safer
When they are trapped by the ledge and are in shield, it is much safer
The idea is to use it in situations where the risk is minimal
In neutral it is slow and easily punishable due to the start-up
It is a trapping tool that shines when your opponent is already at disadvantage
It is not good at creating disadvantage on its own
That make sense?
CI | DragonTactician - Yesterday at 11:59 PM
A little bit.
March 31, 2016
CI | DragonTactician - Today at 12:00 AM
So Arcfire is in itself not a good wall-out tool?
Raziek - Today at 12:00 AM
Not always, but that depends on the matchup
Against like, Ganon, Dedede, Bowser, yeah, it's ****ing fantastic
mash that ****
because they have poor mobility and its hard for them to punish
Raziek - Today at 12:01 AM
But most top tiers evade Arcfire for free in neutral (Sheik, ZSS, Cloud, Diddy, etc)(
Raziek - Today at 12:02 AM
It's very contextual and heavily depends on the opponents mobility and punish options
CI | DragonTactician - Today at 12:03 AM
What are the best options in neutral? I know I use jab a lot (though I need to get better on using fire finisher and not wind finisher) and it seems like Thunder/Elthunder also work, but is that also MU specific?
Raziek - Today at 12:04 AM
Jab, Elthunder and Fair form the core of Robin's neutral game
everything else is accessory or situational
You could play the character with those 3 moves alone if needed
The core concept of Robin's neutral gameplan is to do one of 2 things
Force them to take to the air, or deplete their shield and claim stage position via projectile harassment
as soon as either of those objectives is fulfilled, Robin is winning
The reason for this is because Robin's toolkit has so much of its power concentrated into Air-to-air and trapping landings
Raziek - Today at 12:06 AM
her tilts are garbage, but her aerials are insane
So if you force your opponent to leave the ground, they're forced to deal with the strongest part of Robin's kit
Fair being the primary tool in that regard
Raziek - Today at 12:07 AM
Elthunder is your core horizontal space control tool, with Jab being your primary defensive tool for when they have closed the gap to within a certain distance
once you start branching out from there, the next most important tool to add is Arcthunder
Arcthunder is Robin's best projectile bar none
It is the "My turn" move
The second Arcthunder becomes active, your opponent loses their 'turn' to take the offense
they must evade it, and if they block or are hit by it, Robin gets AT LEAST to take space, and often gets a very lucrative grab punish
The move is so powerful because it fulfills this role on both offense AND defense
CI | DragonTactician - Today at 12:09 AM
It helps Robin get out of the disadvantage and back into neutral?
Raziek - Today at 12:09 AM
If someone is coming in on the ground and they want to shield, Arcthunder means now it's your turn, if you get it out in time
Not just back into neutral, but straight into advantage!
Raziek - Today at 12:10 AM
Arcthunder is a total reversal of control, and that's why it is so powerful
Now, to talk about the other 2 points I mentioned
First, one of the most important concepts to learn is that SOMETIMES you just have to give up space because there is no option that 'wins' in a given scenario
In those situations where I waited under you with Uair and caught your airdodge, there is no winning option if you try to land inwards
either you get hit, or you airdodge (land) and get u-tilted during your lag
Your only option is to defensively Elwind or Dair (both extremely risky), or concede that Cloud controls that space, and go to the ledge instead to work your way back from there
Related to that point, I F-Smashed you in the face because you got greedy on recovery
Raziek - Today at 12:14 AM
Trying to double-jump over the ledge is like the scene in Star Wars where Obi-wan has the high ground
You might think you're hot ****, but approaching with that option is just so easy to punish it's not even funny
Because they can just wait and shield, or simply hit you from outside your effective range
CI | DragonTactician - Today at 12:15 AM
I've not seen Star Wars, so my apologies for not getting the reference.
Raziek - Today at 12:15 AM
and that again comes back to knowing when a situation has no winning option, and you must concede space
sec
https://youtu.be/izcL3dH5hWc?t=41s
that one
AlmostDoug - Today at 12:17 AM
amazing
Heartly - Today at 12:17 AM
LOL that's actually a great reference to make
CI | DragonTactician - Today at 12:17 AM
Yeah, I feel that.
Heartly - Today at 12:17 AM
Props
Raziek - Today at 12:24 AM
Again, same thing
at the end I d-tilted you because you tried to land in and airdodge
easy punish
CI | DragonTactician - Today at 12:25 AM
I was trying to go for the ledge more often in that match. It actually didn't seem to me that I was losing that much control by doing so.
Raziek - Today at 12:25 AM
Yeah, that's my point, lol
Raziek - Today at 12:26 AM
Going into a no-win situation is worse than conceding to a less advantaged one
Ok, so talking about stage positioning some more
At the start you stayed on the platform and charged
that is the worst possible decision other than jumping to the top platform lol
Because immediately you let me get underneath you
On tri-plat stages like BF, DL and Lylat, where you begin the match on a platform
your first course of action should be immediately getting to the ground
usually with run-off or fall-through Arcfire, because it is very difficult to punish from starting positions and has huge payoff against overly aggressive opponents
CI | DragonTactician - Today at 12:33 AM
What would be a mix-up for that, if people know you're going to do something like that?
Raziek - Today at 12:34 AM
Depends on the character, but generally a long-jump over the arcfire trajectory
Which is otherwise stupid unsafe because that's straight into 'you gonna get faired' territory
CI | DragonTactician - Today at 12:35 AM
Is it still a good option if they expect it?
Raziek - Today at 12:35 AM
Can be. Not always
Again, varies by how hard they can punish you for doing it
Heartly - Today at 12:35 AM
The platform makes it hard for them to punish from jumping over arcfire
Raziek - Today at 12:35 AM
^
The middle ground option is fall-through Thunder charge
which gives you defensive positioning, platform cover
CI | DragonTactician - Today at 12:44 AM
What are the best defensive options when landing?
Assuming I'm being juggled.
Raziek - Today at 12:45 AM
I talked about this before, but in most cases you simply have to give up the space
Robin's bad at landing
Defensive Elwind can be a ood option if they've already taken to the air and have poor options for clanking it (it's bad vs. multi-hit uairs, for example)
Heartly - Today at 12:46 AM
What if, say, you try to jump but their up air eats your jump and you're above centre stage?
CI | DragonTactician - Today at 12:46 AM
Would fastfall be a good option at any time?
Raziek - Today at 12:46 AM
If you've got no double jump and you're above center stage you should be trying to get to the ledge
It can be, but pretty much necessitates you ALSO have your double jump as well
Robin's fastfall speed alone isn't enough of a momentum shift
CI | DragonTactician - Today at 12:48 AM
Is b-reversing Thunder charge an option during juggling situations, or is it really just best to DI toward the ledge and hope he doesn't go offstage to fight you
?
Raziek - Today at 12:49 AM
That is the other main option, yes, but you have to do it at a position where they can't simply cover both options
it's a situational mix-up, not a primary landing tool
CI | DragonTactician - Today at 12:50 AM
OK, thanks.
Raziek - Today at 12:50 AM
Ok, let's do 2 more, we've been at this longer than I planned since I ended up explaining a lot of stuff, haha
Raziek-Today at 12:07 AM
This is why I always test Robin players with Cloud
your juggle defense is poor
need to be more willing to go to the ledge, and you need to save DJ and mix up your fast-fall timing
Yoite | Heaven's Feel-Today at 12:07 AM
I usually try to go to ledge because the options are limited.
Yeah I noticed when you were back airing comboing me
that I got into that situation due to using DJ early
I see what I'm doing wrong at least I'll see if I can rectify that.
Raziek-Today at 12:08 AM
Indeed. Some problems are easier to expose playing different characters, haha
Cloud is my defense tester
Yoite | Heaven's Feel-Today at 12:08 AM
Purely because of his offense ability probably.(edited)
Raziek-Today at 12:09 AM
juggles mostly
and neutral
Yoite | Heaven's Feel-Today at 12:13 AM
ugh
too much shield
hmm is it that my approach is too obvious?
Raziek-Today at 12:19 AM
part of it is that there's no ambiguity in your movement
it's very easy to tell what you want to do because you're doing slow and deliberate movements, there's no real... mystery to it
Yoite | Heaven's Feel-Today at 12:20 AM
Well I used to do the opposite in that I would rush in with fairs and up airs, so I tried to delay those more.
Raziek-Today at 12:20 AM
When I move around I am short-hopping and fast-falling constantly and mixing up my timings on when I do it because it obscures my intentions
Yoite | Heaven's Feel-Today at 12:21 AM
hmm i see
maybe this is something I will improve on naturally, hopefully anyway.
Raziek-Today at 12:22 AM
It's something I learned a long time ago in Brawl because it was the basis of Marth's approach game and the surrounding conditioning
and was what drove the Fair or land-and-grab mixup
Though Marth also got a **** load out of standing still and walking, but that's still where I learned it, lol
Yoite | Heaven's Feel-Today at 12:27 AM
Well I did try to conserve the DJ but I think you just got a good read when taking it lol
Raziek-Today at 12:27 AM
Still pressing Arcfire at really bad times
Yoite | Heaven's Feel-Today at 12:27 AM
really? I tried to do it when you were on ledge.
Raziek-Today at 12:28 AM
There were a few that were decent, but you also tried to press it defensively in situations where it had like a 2% success rate
You seem to want to use it as a button which buys you breathing room, which it is not, if your opponent understands it properly
Yoite | Heaven's Feel-Today at 12:29 AM
hmm I see.
Keep it to edgeguarding then.
is fd even alright against cloud lol
Raziek-Today at 12:34 AM
Not really, and I picked it specifically because I wanted to see how you dealt with not having platforms to escape to, which illuminated another habit
Yoite | Heaven's Feel-Today at 12:34 AM
Hmm
Raziek-Today at 12:34 AM
When you're feeling pressured by the ledge you consistently try to regain center stage by jumping over me
Which will not work against Cloud, or most characters
Yoite | Heaven's Feel-Today at 12:35 AM
Okay so what are the other solutions? Jab, shield spotdodge if they try to grab again etc?
Raziek-Today at 12:35 AM
Most of it is a matter of playing more reactively. In those situations I generally just waited to see what you would do and reacted accordingly
As a Robin player you're not always going to be winning, so you need to be able to play with very LITTLE space sometimes
and that means using more retreating fair, and properly understanding how to slowly claim space using Robin's tools
Sometimes it's as simple as walking forward and shielding, other times you need to make more of a harder commitment to it, but it's one of the weaknesses of the character
Unless you have Arcthunder loaded, Robin is not great at simply TAKING space once people are in close
Yoite | Heaven's Feel-Today at 12:38 AM
Understandable, so basically I need to mixup / react accordingly to what you're doing in ledge pressure in order to try and gain neutral stage and not just jump everytime.
Raziek-Today at 12:38 AM
yep
Yoite | Heaven's Feel-Today at 12:38 AM
and if I happen to have arcthunder even better.
Well I think I'm starting to see some things.
Raziek-Today at 12:47 AM
You make some really weird attempts on when to grab and I can't entirely figure out why
It feels like you're trying to do it as an offense pressure read despite the fact that you've not sufficiently conditioned me to want to shield in those situations
So instead you just end up looking dumb because I'm nowhere near your grab
Yoite | Heaven's Feel-Today at 12:49 AM
Hmm I see.
Raziek-Today at 12:49 AM
You can't really use Robin's grab as an offensive tool until you've conditioned your opponent to want to shield in a given situation
Yoite | Heaven's Feel-Today at 12:49 AM
So apply more pressure first.
Raziek-Today at 12:49 AM
the primary means of doing that is proper use of SH Fair, since that is the primary counterplay to the move
You've gotta 'butter em up' first
Yoite | Heaven's Feel-Today at 12:50 AM
An interesting metaphor.
Raziek-Today at 12:50 AM
You also have a tendency to fish for grabs specifically at percents where it's the highest reward
which, although a correct valuation decision, makes it very obvious because I can reasonably assume you will look for the grab at Checkmate percent
This is gonna sound a little out there and weird
but sometimes you have to let grabs come to you
It's like a relationship
If you try too hard to stop being single you just look desperate and nobody wants you
But if you're going about your life happily, sometimes the grab just finds you
instead of the other way around
Yoite | Heaven's Feel-Today at 12:52 AM
Aren't there moves which are grab punishable anyway lol. Maybe I should just be more patient when it comes to the grab.
Try to get a guaranteed one.
Or just yeah
Be more ambigious.
Raziek-Today at 12:53 AM
Robin rarely gets guaranteed grabs, they're almost always off of Arcthunder
You've either got to get them to block Arcthunder, or condition them to want to shield
either or
Yoite | Heaven's Feel-Today at 12:54 AM
SH fair more then
Raziek-Today at 12:58 AM
ok that match had a really important moment I want to talk about
So, you were using SH fair while I was next to the ledge
the first one whiffed
I was still in my shield, you did another one, which I blocked
but then you tried to grab me
The problem there was very simple
and it's that your 'turn' was over but you didn't realize it
as soon as that Fair was blocked your pressure was over because you're too minus at that point and have no option to pressure afterwards
that is why I rolled in for free as soon as I blocked it
Yoite | Heaven's Feel-Today at 12:59 AM
Hmm I thought that was the grab mixup you were on about once you apply pressure.
Raziek-Today at 1:00 AM
Not quite
that grab mixup is born by WHIFFING Fair
the mixup is born from whiff fair -> jab
If you whiff fair in front of their shield, then they try to shield drop and punish you, your jab will stuff them every time
it's Robin's best frametrap
Yoite | Heaven's Feel-Today at 1:01 AM
I've done that in the past.
Raziek-Today at 1:01 AM
the mixup is born when you whiff Fair, and then instead of jabbing, you go in for a grab
The correct answer to whiff Fair -> Jab is to stay in shie;d
which is why that situations creates grabs
If they BLOCK a Fair you're like -9 IIRC (lemme double check this
yeah, levin fair is -9
so if they actually block it, your pressure is over at that point
(most of the time)
Some characters don't have suitable answers to it, but most of the good ones do
Yoite | Heaven's Feel-Today at 1:03 AM
But isn't drifting aerials more safe if you space it?
Which is the point of sword characters if I recall.
I always get told to space my aerials
Raziek-Today at 1:03 AM
Spacing wise, yes, but that doesn't change the frame advantage
That's my point
Is although you have safely dealt shield damage (if you spaced correctly), you're now acting after they do
so it's no longer your turn
figuratively speaking
Yoite | Heaven's Feel-Today at 1:04 AM
does this mixup apply for both levin and bronze btw
Raziek-Today at 1:05 AM
Yes, but Bronze is less threatening because it's got less range, is more unsafe (-12) and is much less reward
Yoite | Heaven's Feel-Today at 1:05 AM
Makes sense.
This is why I always test Robin players with Cloud
your juggle defense is poor
need to be more willing to go to the ledge, and you need to save DJ and mix up your fast-fall timing
Yoite | Heaven's Feel-Today at 12:07 AM
I usually try to go to ledge because the options are limited.
Yeah I noticed when you were back airing comboing me
that I got into that situation due to using DJ early
I see what I'm doing wrong at least I'll see if I can rectify that.
Raziek-Today at 12:08 AM
Indeed. Some problems are easier to expose playing different characters, haha
Cloud is my defense tester
Yoite | Heaven's Feel-Today at 12:08 AM
Purely because of his offense ability probably.(edited)
Raziek-Today at 12:09 AM
juggles mostly
and neutral
Yoite | Heaven's Feel-Today at 12:13 AM
ugh
too much shield
hmm is it that my approach is too obvious?
Raziek-Today at 12:19 AM
part of it is that there's no ambiguity in your movement
it's very easy to tell what you want to do because you're doing slow and deliberate movements, there's no real... mystery to it
Yoite | Heaven's Feel-Today at 12:20 AM
Well I used to do the opposite in that I would rush in with fairs and up airs, so I tried to delay those more.
Raziek-Today at 12:20 AM
When I move around I am short-hopping and fast-falling constantly and mixing up my timings on when I do it because it obscures my intentions
Yoite | Heaven's Feel-Today at 12:21 AM
hmm i see
maybe this is something I will improve on naturally, hopefully anyway.
Raziek-Today at 12:22 AM
It's something I learned a long time ago in Brawl because it was the basis of Marth's approach game and the surrounding conditioning
and was what drove the Fair or land-and-grab mixup
Though Marth also got a **** load out of standing still and walking, but that's still where I learned it, lol
Yoite | Heaven's Feel-Today at 12:27 AM
Well I did try to conserve the DJ but I think you just got a good read when taking it lol
Raziek-Today at 12:27 AM
Still pressing Arcfire at really bad times
Yoite | Heaven's Feel-Today at 12:27 AM
really? I tried to do it when you were on ledge.
Raziek-Today at 12:28 AM
There were a few that were decent, but you also tried to press it defensively in situations where it had like a 2% success rate
You seem to want to use it as a button which buys you breathing room, which it is not, if your opponent understands it properly
Yoite | Heaven's Feel-Today at 12:29 AM
hmm I see.
Keep it to edgeguarding then.
is fd even alright against cloud lol
Raziek-Today at 12:34 AM
Not really, and I picked it specifically because I wanted to see how you dealt with not having platforms to escape to, which illuminated another habit
Yoite | Heaven's Feel-Today at 12:34 AM
Hmm
Raziek-Today at 12:34 AM
When you're feeling pressured by the ledge you consistently try to regain center stage by jumping over me
Which will not work against Cloud, or most characters
Yoite | Heaven's Feel-Today at 12:35 AM
Okay so what are the other solutions? Jab, shield spotdodge if they try to grab again etc?
Raziek-Today at 12:35 AM
Most of it is a matter of playing more reactively. In those situations I generally just waited to see what you would do and reacted accordingly
As a Robin player you're not always going to be winning, so you need to be able to play with very LITTLE space sometimes
and that means using more retreating fair, and properly understanding how to slowly claim space using Robin's tools
Sometimes it's as simple as walking forward and shielding, other times you need to make more of a harder commitment to it, but it's one of the weaknesses of the character
Unless you have Arcthunder loaded, Robin is not great at simply TAKING space once people are in close
Yoite | Heaven's Feel-Today at 12:38 AM
Understandable, so basically I need to mixup / react accordingly to what you're doing in ledge pressure in order to try and gain neutral stage and not just jump everytime.
Raziek-Today at 12:38 AM
yep
Yoite | Heaven's Feel-Today at 12:38 AM
and if I happen to have arcthunder even better.
Well I think I'm starting to see some things.
Raziek-Today at 12:47 AM
You make some really weird attempts on when to grab and I can't entirely figure out why
It feels like you're trying to do it as an offense pressure read despite the fact that you've not sufficiently conditioned me to want to shield in those situations
So instead you just end up looking dumb because I'm nowhere near your grab
Yoite | Heaven's Feel-Today at 12:49 AM
Hmm I see.
Raziek-Today at 12:49 AM
You can't really use Robin's grab as an offensive tool until you've conditioned your opponent to want to shield in a given situation
Yoite | Heaven's Feel-Today at 12:49 AM
So apply more pressure first.
Raziek-Today at 12:49 AM
the primary means of doing that is proper use of SH Fair, since that is the primary counterplay to the move
You've gotta 'butter em up' first
Yoite | Heaven's Feel-Today at 12:50 AM
An interesting metaphor.
Raziek-Today at 12:50 AM
You also have a tendency to fish for grabs specifically at percents where it's the highest reward
which, although a correct valuation decision, makes it very obvious because I can reasonably assume you will look for the grab at Checkmate percent
This is gonna sound a little out there and weird
but sometimes you have to let grabs come to you
It's like a relationship
If you try too hard to stop being single you just look desperate and nobody wants you
But if you're going about your life happily, sometimes the grab just finds you
instead of the other way around
Yoite | Heaven's Feel-Today at 12:52 AM
Aren't there moves which are grab punishable anyway lol. Maybe I should just be more patient when it comes to the grab.
Try to get a guaranteed one.
Or just yeah
Be more ambigious.
Raziek-Today at 12:53 AM
Robin rarely gets guaranteed grabs, they're almost always off of Arcthunder
You've either got to get them to block Arcthunder, or condition them to want to shield
either or
Yoite | Heaven's Feel-Today at 12:54 AM
SH fair more then
Raziek-Today at 12:58 AM
ok that match had a really important moment I want to talk about
So, you were using SH fair while I was next to the ledge
the first one whiffed
I was still in my shield, you did another one, which I blocked
but then you tried to grab me
The problem there was very simple
and it's that your 'turn' was over but you didn't realize it
as soon as that Fair was blocked your pressure was over because you're too minus at that point and have no option to pressure afterwards
that is why I rolled in for free as soon as I blocked it
Yoite | Heaven's Feel-Today at 12:59 AM
Hmm I thought that was the grab mixup you were on about once you apply pressure.
Raziek-Today at 1:00 AM
Not quite
that grab mixup is born by WHIFFING Fair
the mixup is born from whiff fair -> jab
If you whiff fair in front of their shield, then they try to shield drop and punish you, your jab will stuff them every time
it's Robin's best frametrap
Yoite | Heaven's Feel-Today at 1:01 AM
I've done that in the past.
Raziek-Today at 1:01 AM
the mixup is born when you whiff Fair, and then instead of jabbing, you go in for a grab
The correct answer to whiff Fair -> Jab is to stay in shie;d
which is why that situations creates grabs
If they BLOCK a Fair you're like -9 IIRC (lemme double check this
yeah, levin fair is -9
so if they actually block it, your pressure is over at that point
(most of the time)
Some characters don't have suitable answers to it, but most of the good ones do
Yoite | Heaven's Feel-Today at 1:03 AM
But isn't drifting aerials more safe if you space it?
Which is the point of sword characters if I recall.
I always get told to space my aerials
Raziek-Today at 1:03 AM
Spacing wise, yes, but that doesn't change the frame advantage
That's my point
Is although you have safely dealt shield damage (if you spaced correctly), you're now acting after they do
so it's no longer your turn
figuratively speaking
Yoite | Heaven's Feel-Today at 1:04 AM
does this mixup apply for both levin and bronze btw
Raziek-Today at 1:05 AM
Yes, but Bronze is less threatening because it's got less range, is more unsafe (-12) and is much less reward
Yoite | Heaven's Feel-Today at 1:05 AM
Makes sense.
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