ROB match up discussion

[saviorslegacy]

Finish your ROB discussion in here.

ROB's camping game is much better than Sheik's if he can set it up. Gyro stops needles and he can laser/wall with relative safety.

Camping game does not matter when ROB's projectiles aren't exactly good.

You can hold onto Gyro, he can no longer use it.
His laser has a charger time, I forget it's precise number, but it can't be spammed.

:leek:

Well, now you're just trolling or thinking very simply about ROB.

I've played both Chibo and t0mmy, undeniably the two best ROBs after HolyNightmare and ROB's projectiles are extremely effective at walling Sheik and controlling the stage. If you go for the gyro you are well within his amazing tilt range or a laser. Also, ROB's glide toss is fantastic and gives him the ability to escape any pressure situation. He can shoot a laser after about 2-3 seconds IIRC.

You don't know how to handle his Gyro obviously....it has a few kinks, along with dissipating against a shield (like Peach's turnips)

I swear, everyone should just become a Diddy main for a good month or so.

Projectiles are bad

It was a hard choice even putting ROB's Gyro in the "good" projectile list. It's mediocre at best, and running into it while it's moving is only something you should be doing if you aren't used to it spinning and doing that...

Yah, I state my opinions blunt and harshly. No need dancing around points to avoid hurting feelings.

If he has a Gyro in hand, his only options are to fsmash, throw it, or jump and do an aerial of some sort. Makes his options very obvious, especially since he lacks ground speed (outside of Glide Tossing) so he cannot hope to control the stage to the degree other character's can with his own Gyro!

It's not about running into a gyro, it's about ROB being able to advance with the gyro, drop it down, and set up a wall against Sheik where he can pressure her with lasers, tilts or aerials, all of which outrange Sheik. All of this comes at extremely low risk to ROB. Again, high level ROBs don't just simply chuck it at you or glide toss, they use it to limit space.

Just because you state things bluntly doesn't mean they are true or have any merit.

1) He has to shoot the gyro first
2) This is presuming he isn't even charging it (it still takes time to shoot)
2.5) Let's assume he can grab it before you
3) Now you have to know how far he is able to throw it, and at which angle he can throw it at.
4) While he has it in his hand, he cannot do any tilts. To do aerials requires a Z-drop to an aerial (which doesn't add any noticeable amount of time to the aerial) however he has to be airborne
5) Laser has enough startup lag, that unless you are aerial or across the stage, you can powershield and punish. The further you are = the easier it is to shield but the harder it is to punish.

Of his aerials bair is hard to punish (powershield-->needles if you're lucky) and fair is viable as well. Fair is hard to hit however when you are low on the ground and nair/uair/dair aren't even worth talking about while on stage (uair if he's below you, but you're grounded)

tl;dr
Crouch is amazing as it makes his fair harder to space and time properly, as well as when he throws the Gyro it will go right over you.

I agree, his camping does take time to set up (which is why the large stage helps), but once he sets it up it does give him a variety of safe pressure options. Of course, all of these are avoidable (as is everything in this game), but being able to put your opponent into a guessing game with little risk isn't a bad thing.

I never said it's unbeatable but its efficacy does increase with more space.

His camping limits his own options in indirect ways.
Once he has his gyro out, he can't shoot another until it dissipates.

Lasers (I think) are 3 seconds.

Hold his gyro/play keep away (toss it up, as ROB's blindspot is ALSO below him - so chasing after it is a poor option) and then he has a laser every 3 seconds.

It's about being creative and not letting your opponent wall you. Even when he does get setup, it's easier to get it on than Diddy or Snake is.

I'm going to agree with on SuSa on this one, ROB's projectiles can only truly punish commitments. The only times where the safe pressure options you mention apply and it becomes a guessing game is when you are near the edge of the stage and ROB has control of the middle just outside his tilt range or he's got a gyro in hand. Other than that you should constantly look at ROB ready to shield a laser when you are in long range, and if he starts to charge his gyro charge your needles. Otherwise take that projectile away from him or just make it disappear with shield like SuSa said.

The "getting his gyro" part is one of the commitments you are talking about. Like I said, it's not unbeatable, but to act like ROB doesn't benefit from it is kind of silly.

You can ignore his gyro and punish him for trying to commit to getting it.

He fires it in a relatively neutral state if he's not using it to punish a commitment or force a reaction of you from offstage.

I have an entire paragraph of my thread referring to exceptions where all projectiles are good because it forces a reaction of "Do something or die" and "if you do the WRONG something, you die from me." type of deal.

I could post a vid from the Sheik boards showing such a use of the Gyro, where the ROB through the Gyro up to force an airdodge from Sheik and then the ROB bair'd Sheik.

The Sheik's better option at that point would have to airdodged to CATCH the item, then instant throw it down to cancel the airdodge. This escapes the airdodge earlier and the ROB risks getting hit by his own Gyro.

It was simply a matter of choosing the wrong option.

Of course, he can react to you trying to punish (this can repeat ad infinitum), especially since he has the range advantage.

Listing all the possible options doesn't negate the efficacy of said guessing game. It seems we're having two different conversations. I can also list my options on how to not get gimped by MK offstage, but it doesn't mean I'm at an advantage in that situation.

Depends how charged the Gyro was.

Also during his commitment he is unable to move. Unlike MK being offstage gimping you.

That was merely an example, but yes, I'll agree that ROB's camping is not as difficult to deal with as being offstage vs MK.

Anyways, the scarier part about ROB isn't his camp game but his gimp game. You want a stage that has a short distance to the ledge/safe place.

Which makes FD bad in that regard.

I'm sry guys but I have to disagree with you about robs camping game. Rob's gyro is amazing. Dont get me wrong its not like ur typical camping tools but it definitely has its uses i play 2 good robs regularly. 1 is mister eric and the other is a local and while he isnt that experienced at smash he has nasty stage control from other fighters. I also play rob a decent amount.

Rob's gyro has alot going for it. Like rica said its not about hitting you its about controlling space. As rob i rarely charge my gyro ever. The important thing is getting it on the stage. Once rob has it out on the stage it gives him a nice hitbosx to stand behind and lob tilts over it and harass with lasers. If you are ever pressuring him with a top on the field he gets a freeroll behind the top that u cant punish. The best part about gyro is its use while its spinning. As an item it becomes an ok thing but while its spinning is where its good. You arent allowed to stand there and if I can get behind it u cant run up and shield it anymore cause i can grab you.

It also allows him a safe place to land when recovering. Shoot the top and land behind it. If you shield it, cool he can try and plant it again later. Grabbing the top and holding sometimes works but only for characters with pretty good b moves. Because while z dropping and aerials are nice the fact that you cant be moving initally is a huge hindrance and you cant fight even close to as well while maintaining an item. By taking his top you are limiting ur options in an attempt to not give rob a tool to control the stage. In turn he is controlling you tho.

Robs gyro is a great projectile i mean really really good i would kill for sheik to have 1. People just need to understand that it should be used more like snakes mine than a projectile. But you can actually throw it to a spot your not on and pick it up too so its even better than a snake mine.

Laser just support the top thats its primary function.

Snake's mine is ****ing horrible when opponent's aren't idiots and know to rid of it A.S.A.P. This is coming from a Snake main.

I know snakes mine is bad but you cant throw snake mines. And you cant always get rid of robs top cause if the rob is smart they will shoot it when you cant run up and shield it immeidately trust me if the rob knows what they are doing they should have no issue getting it out.

I can think of about 5 different ways to grab the Gyro or otherwise render it useless.

It's a "my opponent is offstage let me force them into a bad position" type move.

Glide toss at you--> forces shield--> they get a grab

That's why you shouldn't shield. Crouch instead.

When I get my working copy of Brawl I'll show the Sheik boards how Sheik can use items, how she can avoid items, and how overall she's awesome.

how many of those ways are safe if rob is standing right next to it? And sheik doesnt have a glide toss. Also glide toss at shield to grab is not legit at all.

 

[SuSa]

I wasn't talking about Sheik's glide toss. That's why it said "at you" I was talking about ROB.

Sheik does have a JCT (and I reeeallly want to believe she might has a good DACIT.. but meh if she does it's like the most impossible thing to pull off ever)

Scariest part about ROB is when you're offstage, because he can fair WoP you all day. I'm not scared of ROB's camping.

At all.

Sheik can handle it and get around it much easier than Snake can - and it's never been an issue for my Snake.
EDIT:
Typo. Cane-->can

 

[<π]

Sheik can handle it and get around it much easier than Snake cane - and it's never been an issue for my Snake.

agreed.

she can't out camp him. but she doesn't need to.

 

[riocosta123]

I think a lot of things have been indirectly covered here, but here's a brief version of other things not related to camping:

1) Tilts - His forward tilt and down tilt are absolutely ridiculous in range, his hands are disjointed and have pretty low cooldown (ROB's IASA frames for dtilt make it MK speed).

2) Recovery -If he di's badly and recovers low since he can't airdodge you can hit him with needles, but any ROB with decent DI can go high and then bair himself away from most punishment that isn't needles.

3) Gimping - fair ;-;. Also, bair really covers a lot of ground when edgeguarding Sheik's vanish because of his fire head. Thank god ROB is slow and his moves naturally send you extremely high.

4) Weight/bizarre floaty physics - Even though ROB is big you can't ftilt him that much due to his floatiness and his fair. wuuut

Thankfully, ROB doesn't have that good of a way to approach us/combos either although that changes due to the stage. Sheik trades range for speed in both aerials and projectiles while ROB holds the edge in "priority" and zoning. The problem though is that Sheik's difference in speed (quite a few of his moves are in the 4-8 frame range) is not nearly as much as their difference in range.

Even when Sheik gets inside, she isn't guaranteed as much damage compared to other characters because of ROB's properties. Thankfully once he gets enough damage to pop up high you can attack ROB with relative ease because his aerials have such long startup time and cover a limited number of angles (especially below). ROB is garbage on stages with platforms because of this.

If you're in the air, ROB has pretty good frame trap options in fair, bair and nair. All of them are disjointed, bair and nair last long enough to go through air dodges and fair can WOP. Sheik doesn't have much that hits below her so your best bet is to retreat even if you eat a laser/gyro because ROB's fire is strong.

MISC -

ROB's floatiness and large bulk DO make it much easier to land fsmashes and upsmashes on him, which negate some of the weight problems.

ROB's fsmash on shield is pretty hard to punish if you don't react in time, so don't get suckered in if you know you missed your chance. ROB's dsmash isn't that great at shield poking actually, I think people just forget to shield it all the way.

Overall:

Due to ROB's weight he doesn't have to win the guessing game nearly as much as you do and his effective zones are larger. Combine that with his good edgeguarding options and recovery and you've got a pretty tough matchup. His terrible ground/air mobility is really the only thing that keeps this from being even worse.

I can't say I've played the ROB Zelda match up so I have no idea. She gets zoned probably even worse than Sheik but she can at least shield poke ROB with KO moves. The Zelda boards have it at 40-60 too so pick your poison. I'd be interested to hear the ROB boards on this.

40-60

 

[Judo777]

Are you kidding me? Zelda is not only a good thing in the ROB MU its actually the key IMO. I play Mr Eric all the time and i have played Sil fairly recently in tourney. Juggling rob is very important like everyone has said but once hes over 100% TRANSFORM INTO ZELDA. Why wouldn't you rob actually has a trouble with zelda as a character. I have only played Sil once in tournament recently and I beat him because he never lived past 114 i think. Zelda moves shield poke him all day. If you dont transform rob will not be dying until about 180. My first win against Mr Eric in tournament ever was once i realized i could turn into zelda. Since then i haven't lost to Mr Eric in tournament for over a year now. And Mr Eric is freaking incredible. Zelda is so important in this MU IMO. Its one of the only 4 MU's i recommend using her.

Those 4 being.


IC's
First half of pika (til 50%) or the whole time if you are confident.
Rob
D3

 

[Zwarm]

I'm a ROB who's looking to learn this match up since I've never played against a Sheik until last weekend and lost, but I play against Corms, a Zelda, all the time, and Zelda is a god send against ROB, especially when her kill moves are fresh. Unless I block it perfectly by tilting my shield, up smash shield pokes ROB even when I have a full shield. He has awful vertical DI, so Zelda's up smash can kill around 100%, like Judo said. So yeah, I don't have much to add in the Sheik MU, but I know for a fact that Zelda gives ROB trouble, the only reason they probably have it in ROB's advantage is because ROB's awesome gimping game, and Zelda's bad recovery.

Also, I know up smash isn't the whole MU, but honestly if Sheik can rack up the damage, it's all she really needs to do with Zelda to finish him off.

 

[Mister Eric]

My first win against Mr Eric in tournament ever was once i realized i could turn into zelda. Since then i haven't lost to Mr Eric in tournament for over a year now.

Very true indeed xD
Judo, we need to train <3

And Mr Eric is freaking incredible.

In and out of smash ;D

 

[riocosta123]

Wow, I didn't know ROB's shield was that bad. Well, good stuff then.

 

[Zwarm]

Eric, give me help with this match up.

Yeah, ROB's shield sucks, it's a shame.

 

[Mister Eric]

What I find most difficult for this MU is, if ROB hits shiek's shield from the air, I'm beeped.
I get dmg ***** it seems.

Another thing is, once I'm finally getting used to Shiek, I'm stuck dealing with Zelda, the one-hitter. afaik it's impossible to SDI her up-smash. Makes me just want to laser her back to Hyrule for it...

My best advice for ROBs is:

• learn both shiek's and zelda's recovery. learn to punish it, and its limits

• stay grounded if at all possible.

• 
  stay quick! don't give shiek time to pressure your shield. use your get-the-beep-out moves like jab. your reaction needs to be treated like you're trying to punish mk. super supreme.

• keep shiek busy! keeping a gyro on the stage limits options. during this time interval, take advantage of it. take note of her options and counter them.

• and if you're playing against Judo, don't let his "shiek is garbage!" talk get to you xD. when he's quiet and pouty, that's when he's convinced! j/k, ily<beep3

 

[Heartstring]

if you try to camp vs. rob, youre getting beat hard. if you try to come in close then you have to fight liek youre on a minefield because his attacks are so fast and can cover almsot every area.
everyone seems to think robs dsmash is far too good, but infact its pretty short ranged, and has almsot no shield pressure too. if youre fighting one of the worse robs (like myself TT_TT) you can try and pressure the rob into using a more punishable attack. because juggling rob is pretty easy. your u-air is going to be some kind of godsend this matchup. jsut because we can only really airdodge to avoid it (and n-air, but down there the hitbox is really late)

 

[Juushichi]

Sheik-Falco camp game is even imo, especially when you consider that anytime Sheik has a lead, a full needle charge, and is crouching. She is in a particularly advantageous position.

I don't completely understand ROB either I just know he has a bad blindspot beneath him. Grab him and throw him in the air, besides fair his aerials are slow. When he's at KO percents switch to Zelda.

One of the rare times I've disagreed with you so far, Mars but: No, no, no. No. No. No. Do not do this. R.O.B. isn't a MU we need Zelda for at all and even at high %'s it's a bad idea. - Disregard this, my Zelda is really bad.

I've got three pretty good R.O.B.'s in my area: Mister Eric (KY), Mr. E (OH) and SiL (OH - iirc, inui said he was better than Chibo at SiiS3 / R.O.B.'s generally say he's the best with the top / He also handled Tutu relatively well there - needless to say, he's the ROB I know about the most) that I've played quite a bit (though it was Mario for the longest time for the two latter). The rest of it seems fine.

You want to keep R.O.B. in the air and you underneath when he's uncomfortable. R.O.B's have some timing tricks with their aerials even if they aren't fast. Nair/Bair/Fair are what you're going to see probably the most. Nair is what I've seen coming from behind a gyro and as something that will beat out your aerial --- it and bair also linger for a few moments (and hit) later than you would think. I know with Eric and Sil in particular, charging a gyro is used to B-reverse to get a better position (ala Snake) and punish wiffed aerials.

SuSa is right for the most part that WOP is the biggest danger to us in this MU. R.O.B. is someone you want to be reeeeeally close to whenever you can. He can't really do anything when you're jabbing him and grabs yield some pretty good results.

@ SuSa: Don't crouch a gyro shot, lol. R.O.B's are smarter than to just shoot it straight at you.

^ Taken from other thread, with edits ofc.

 

[Judo777]

What I find most difficult for this MU is, if ROB hits shiek's shield from the air, I'm beeped.
I get dmg ***** it seems.

Another thing is, once I'm finally getting used to Shiek, I'm stuck dealing with Zelda, the one-hitter. afaik it's impossible to SDI her up-smash. Makes me just want to laser her back to Hyrule for it...

My best advice for ROBs is:

• learn both shiek's and zelda's recovery. learn to punish it, and its limits

• stay grounded if at all possible.

• 
  stay quick! don't give shiek time to pressure your shield. use your get-the-beep-out moves like jab. your reaction needs to be treated like you're trying to punish mk. super supreme.

• keep shiek busy! keeping a gyro on the stage limits options. during this time interval, take advantage of it. take note of her options and counter them.

• and if you're playing against Judo, don't let his "shiek is garbage!" talk get to you xD. when he's quiet and pouty, that's when he's convinced! j/k, ily<beep3

haha i dont really think sheik is garbage i just get frustrated when stupid stuff like tripping happens lol. Last tourney i was complaining cause the wii was hacked and i was geting 3 second transformations lol. You had enough time to on reaction charge a top and launch it clear across the stage to punish transform. I was getting heated. lol

Mr Eric for best ROB?

 

[Mister Eric]

did not mean to dbl post, so ill just leave this one for jibberish



aopgsdgosngoasngnsgonkgnokeg

 

[Mister Eric]

haha i dont really think sheik is garbage i just get frustrated when stupid stuff like tripping happens lol. Last tourney i was complaining cause the wii was hacked and i was geting 3 second transformations lol. You had enough time to on reaction charge a top and launch it clear across the stage to punish transform. I was getting heated. lol

Mr Eric for best ROB?

haha, i knuz<3
super beepin funny tho, you gotta say!

- iirc, inui said he was better than Chibo at SiiS3

That Inui logic kicking in!
The thing with East Coast is, they only really play Chibo. They get used to mainly one good ROB.
There's TV and stingers too, but TV goes in and out against MK, and stingers doesn't get to travel like he should, or else he'd **** moar face imo.

 

[phi1ny3]

gotta try some of this stuff next time I start playing t0mmy again, shieldpoke usmash sounds pretty good.

 

[Judo777]

gotta try some of this stuff next time I start playing t0mmy again, shieldpoke usmash sounds pretty good.

throw and fsmash at his shield one time to lower it. Then the next time you usmash its like an auto poke.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I usually play this MU going all Zelda. Zelda is way to awesome in this MU, and gimp aside, she lives VERY LONG against ROB.

As Sheik, I'd imagine being under ROB is the place to be. His Airdodge isn't too good so we can get the most damage there. It was said already but his vertical survivability is terribad so landing T-Usmash is a must if you don't want to go Zelda.

 

[Heartstring]

as any character, being under r.o.b is the place to be

 

[choknater]

sheik can combo the hell out of rob, not hard to approach him.

unless u force him off stage

but what can he do from there shoot a laser or two? lame.

i feel like if i play aggressively and stay in his zone, this matchup is easy. hes much easier to approach than other campy characters such as luc, g&w, olimar. i just have to watch out for big priority attacks like nair, or his dsmash when i overextend myself

 

[Judo777]

sheik can combo the hell out of rob, not hard to approach him.

unless u force him off stage

but what can he do from there shoot a laser or two? lame.

i feel like if i play aggressively and stay in his zone, this matchup is easy. hes much easier to approach than other campy characters such as luc, g&w, olimar. i just have to watch out for big priority attacks like nair, or his dsmash when i overextend myself

I personally dont approach Luc and we as sheik should never be approaching GW lol, Oh wait is luc lucario or lucas? Cause i meant lucario.

In a related note i think we might **** lucas harder than fox tbh. 1 grab is pretty much a stock.

 

[Heartstring]

the title of 'passive camper' goes to r.o.b for a reason. theres considerable gaps in his spam time if you want it to be effective

 

[choknater]

yes i meant lucario, and yeah i know what u mean. i never really approach lucario or gw either

but sometimes

my needle camping psychs them out so much that they do weird movements then i approach and f them up hahaha

 

[Heartstring]

hmm, higher level paly needed possibly
nah it can work, i use needles solely for disruption
turns out im ideal here as i main r.o.b and second sheik XD

 

[-Mars-]

In a related note i think we might **** lucas harder than fox tbh. 1 grab is pretty much a stock.

I agree.....Lucas mains think otherwise though lol.

 

[choknater]

from what i remember of playing pink fresh like a year ago on wifi lol

lucas' aerials are great spacing tools

just gotta know what they do

 

[Judo777]

seriously a grab is a stock tho lol. Grab pummel release > ftilt > regrab or just pummel release > regrab but the ftilt is good for damage. If he air rleases we can run and regrab on reaction. GR > DACUS..............

 

[choknater]

alright alright, thats great and everything.. but lucas is pretty good at not getting grabbed, his aerial movement makes him feel like im fighting wario sometimes. i usually try not to force grabs, but ill just keep it in mind. like how i dont try to force ftilts against fox/falco/wolf, even though its the best thing to do.

 

[riocosta123]

Yeah his air speed is great and his nair and fair are both fantastic tools for spacing. Nair in particiular absolutely shreds shields/spotdodges, has transcendent priority, and autocancels 1 frame after it ends.. It's like a beastlier version of Wario's dair.

I think the edgeguarding abilities of Sheik are what make the matchup in her favor. Lucas is actually pretty decent on the ground (my LT main).

Also, Lucas just punked ROB in his own thread.

 

[-Mars-]

Yea nobody cares bout ROB lol Lucas is more important.

 

[Heartstring]

Yea nobody cares bout ROB lol Lucas is more important.

wtfman.jpg

does anyone even use lucas? honestly ive played tons of ppl but never have i seen someone use lucas

 

[-Mars-]

Sarcasm bruh. Lucas is pretty popular for people for low tiers.

 

[Heartstring]

i can see why, with ike gone theres not much dominating low tiers...although i wish he was so i'd still have a legitimate john for losing (used to main ike)

 

[Greave]

I believe Sheik actually outcamps ROB because of her needlespeed. You can pester him more frequently than he can get out his laser (and from better angles), and his Spinny is more of a control device than a projectile.

Up close, we beat ROB, too. We destroy big targets in so many ways: shield poking, mild locking, etc. The only thing we need to watch out for are his good OOS options, but if we play smart, we won't leave him a chance to use them.

So at long range and short range, we have the upper hand. That only leave's ROB's prized middle range, where all his tilts live. There's no reason Sheik should be here at all. She's more agile on the ground, and if I'm not mistaken, in the air, too. If he's walling us out, we can run from it. If he lets up, we can instantly close the gap.

That leaves the air. We juggle robots like crazy. That giant hexagon is such a tasty target for uAir . . . . But we do get gimped like mad. This is the only factor that would shift the numbers in ROB's favor. And even though we can hit the poor automaton repeatedly when he's off the stage (or just wait for him to fall into our juggle traps again), his gimp game is a curse to Sheik's don't-get-gimped game.

All in all, I'd say the ratio is somewhere along the lines of 42:58 's favor (numbers not divisible by 5 ftw).

 

[Heartstring]

That giant hexagonQUOTE]
i like big hexagons and i cannot lie, your other sheikas cant deny, when a rob walks in with an itty bitty waist and...i dont know the rest of the song XP

 

[Greave]

i like big hexagons and i cannot lie, your other sheikas cant deny, when a rob walks in with an itty bitty waist and...i dont know the rest of the song XP

and a geometric thing in yo face, you get hitstun.

 

[Heartstring]

lol you know XD
whats the name of that song anyhow?

 

[Greave]

"Baby Got Back" by Sir Mix-a-Lot. Every kid in the first grade was singing it.

My attempt at rerailing this thread was humorously denied.

 

[Heartstring]

awesome
first grade means nothing to me as england has a different education system, same as freshman also means jack all, etc.

 

[-Mars-]

I MM'ed Lada last Saturday and I don't like this matchup one bit.