"Revival of DGames" Mafia

[#HBC | Laundry]

What do you want me to answer, then? I make a read and people seem to like it.

No people seem to like you because they're giving you a pass as you're not a threat or worth worrying about at the moment. Your consistent capability of showing up on the popular or surging bandwagons at the time is definitely a cause for concern.

 

[BarDulL]

A player has answered the age old question! The present contains a role pm, which represents the self; @ #HBC | J has faced himself!

The present slowly began to spin, unraveling four layers of wrapping as it did so! The final layer remaining of the present was a velvet wrapping with a white ribbon!

"I didn't want to admit it, but...you are me, and I am you. You were a side of me that I chose to ignore, a side of me that I wanted to bury in the past, but doing so has hurt me more than it has helped. By embracing my faults, I can better come to understand myself and become stronger."

Slowly, the final velvet wrapping tore itself off the present. Everyone was taken aback though as the final wrapping revealed...an old man with a pointed nose!

"Thank heavens, someone has finally let me out of that ridiculous box! Gorfdamnit, Nabe. It has been THREE YEARS, BRO."

The old gentlemen coughed, recognizing that he was acting uncharacteristically out of character.

"Ahem. @ #HBC | J , come with me for a moment, will you?"

The old man snapped his fingers, and suddenly both he and J disappeared. It was only moments later that J returned, but something about J's demeanor had clearly changed. What exactly happened during the brief interval that @ #HBC | J disappeared? Was it important? Regardless, the mystery of whom was responsible was still unresolved. The players, although still curious about the odd man with the pointed nose, continued to deliberate as to who the killers were.

 

[Kantrip]

Aw dammit I guessed Persona the game, was totally on the right track :/

 

[Spak]

No people seem to like you because they're giving you a pass as you're not a threat or worth worrying about at the moment. Your consistent capability of showing up on the popular or surging bandwagons at the time is definitely a cause for concern.

People seem to like me because I'm a town read lean (in most people's eyes). I formulate my opinion in a situation and voice it; if you find fault in my reasoning, I will consider it and may change my opinion based on if that counterpoint makes sense. I've been questioned a lot during this game, so I'm not being given a "free pass". My reads should be treated just like anyone else's.

 

[Fandangox]

Like i'd love to give you credit for finally speaking up in that giant wall, but you only did it on pure self-defense because we all shook it out of you by force and that does nothing to ease my distrust.

You have done basically nothing this phase and only even posted any of that after Ryu prodded you..

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Yeah, I had the right idea, but the silly natute of needing an exact guess kept me from getting it.

I really wish J didn't end up with it. Like REALLY wish he didn't.

 

[Fandangox]

Well that stops the potential "Ruy could use the phone beforehand" angle.

Can you elaborate more on what you were going on with this?

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

People seem to like me because I'm a town read lean (in most people's eyes). I formulate my opinion in a situation and voice it; if you find fault in my reasoning, I will consider it and may change my opinion based on if that counterpoint makes sense. I've been questioned a lot during this game, so I'm not being given a "free pass". My reads should be treated just like anyone else's.

Wat. They are being treated like anyone else's.

 

[Spak]

Wat. They are being treated like anyone else's.

That's my point.

 

[Fandangox]

Like it makes sense because Ryu has no reason to lie about gaining a tracker ability or having his phone power as Indy if he thinks he can be more Town by doing so, but as soon as he did that Rake came in and tried to end him. If I were scum looking at that at the start of D1 with the way Ryu's been about his claims I'm not at all surprised if that's what happened.

@ #HBC | Ryker
@ #HBC | Laundry
@ #HBC | J
@ #HBC | Dancer
@ Kantrip
@ Maven89
@ Fandangox
@ Spak

I want everyone's opinion on this. Nobody gets to not take a stance, no matter what you think of it.

See below:

Although there's a mod confirmed indy I'm not really worried about it until we get a mafia flip and have to worry about connections. While it's possible that Rake went so hard with bad reasoning because he has info from being scum that condemns ryu as a different faction of scum, I don't really care to think about it until I've gotten Rake's flip

That's kind of how I am approaching it too, but I then remember that one game where you won as Indy after almost everyone had you as scum when you freaked against No Hetero, but when No Hetero turned out to be scum almost no one thought about you being an indy.

i.e what I am trying to say is that if two people look scummy, their interactions heavily imply that they are not on a team, and one flips scum, it doesn't mean the other is town. Its possible the other is indy, but once again, that's something that their play will indicate.

With Ryu and Rake, I didn't like Ryu's play, and Rake's entry to D2 is a possibility, but right now tackling that angle isn't gonna do us any good, for that to work we have to believe either one of them in their statements about the phone after what we already know, and that's a gamble, there's reasons why either of them would lie as any alignment, its gonna be WIFOM until more info about the phone gets revealed to us.

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

Oh lordy lord lord. This is quite a distressful distraction. Good post J, but unfortunately you're just wrong about me. I don't even want to respond because I know you've already made your mind up about this long ago and nothing I say is going to convince you. I guess everyone else would still like a response so here we go!

I finally found the post that made me curious about Sword's:



Here is when people have come in and made cases for both slots already and this seems to be Sword's just taking what seem to interest the rest of town as the "majority" scum-reads and tacking on his $0.02 onto it. But let's break it down as to what I am talking about.

He constitutes one of my questions towards Maven as scummy when I was asking why he unprecedentedly brought up the fact of Alphas and not letting them take control of the thread which hadn't even really occurred in the thread. It looked like Maven was trying to throw FUD at Ryker for no reason whatsoever besides his entrance post. That struck a chord with me.

First things first, what you asked Maven about read way more like an attack than a question.

Why did you write this paragraph? It just looks like an attempt to knock Ryker down before he even really got into the game. I mean sure, we all know that Ryker is stubborn but this looks like a little too much of mudslinging/demeaning him for your benefit. Could you point out what you hoped to accomplish posting this?

This is your "question." It clearly reads like you suspected Maven of something, so don't under represent one of my arguments against you. This is what you were responding to:

For those who don't know, Ryker is like a birthday boy. He's sitting in the circle with his paper Mcdonald's crown on demanded we cede every argument to him and let him be the only one who plays "cause it's his birthday". Push him back just as hard as he pushes you, no one cares and will actually like that you do so.

This clearly reads like Maven was just exhibiting his personality. Trying to insist that there was an ulterior motive behind it (such a FUD slinging) seems foolish. Hence my argument that you started out with "force content."

He actually tries to use my "ring vote-count" as a reason to look at me as being scummy but does not explain how. Besides it being a really weak reason, it looks like Swords is really reaching to try and come up with "original" content on me which he then in turns tries to call me out on in the next post by saying that my read on Spak at the time is just "logical" and someone else had already brought it up which was not the case actually. The only person to have said anything on Spak looking townie was Laundry and the consensus at the time was that Spak was looking scummy to WATT/Ryu/Rake/Maven/Rosa. The irony of his statement is that my read on Spak was not "un-original" but the opposite whereas his next scum-read is on, guess who? Spak.

I DID explain why I found the ring vote count thing scummy here, in 302:

J is currently leaning scum to me as a feel he's maintained a presence without actually doing too much of anything. The three main points of concern is his weird attack on Maven, the "event votecount" he kept, and just a lack of original content. Already went over Maven. The "event votecount" thing isn't scummy by itself but coupled with a lack of original content it reads more like filler than genuine usefulness. I just feel like if J was town he would be more interested in that WoT vs. WL thing then he seems right now.

It wasn't just the fact that you did the ring puesdo-votecount, but that was ALL you were doing at the time that I found worrisome. Weak reasoning? Maybe. The case would have been stronger should you have been doing that for a longer time. In matter of fact, I thought about giving you more rope before making any of the accusations I did, just to see if my suspicions would get stronger in time if I left you alone to do your own, natural thing. However, I decided that if I took that philosophy I would be waiting around forever, so I decided to call you out on it then and there.

Wrt Spak, at what point did I ever say he was scum? Yes, I know that I proceeded to question him in just a manner that may imply I found him scummy, but I was doing so because I was looking for how honest/open he was going to be to just direct accusations. The REASON I asked him if he was trying to redirect attention off of him was not because I thought he was scummy but because I was interested in his answer.

There is a red flag in this post as well especially when Spak is being talked about. The red/bolded bit really worries me because Swords seems to not really care about finding scum, but it seems like he is trying to look for easy options on who to lynch which were at the time J/Spak and not much else. But the "regardless of alignment" is something he does for both of his scum-reads. He tries to qualify his responses with outs and excuses for after flips. I can say for certain that from my perspective this looks like what Swords is trying to do. Blanket statements like "regardless of what he flips, I can still call them out on this" is incredibly scummy to me because it is not full committing to the read and also giving an out

How exactly am I looking for easy lynch choices wrt pushing you? I haven't played this game in awhile but I remembered the last time I did that was Rusty Guillotine Day 1 and it did NOT end well for me.

Anyways point being you are NOT an easy push (well apparently you are Day 1 but that's not what I remember). If I wanted to to do that there are other choices I would definitely consider before you.

Wrt Spak you're confusing me being open and honest with my thought process with "not fully committing to a read," because I DID commit to a read. At the end of that post you quoted I sided with a town lean on Spak. Read it pls. Everything before that is the telling of how I arrived at that conclusion.

Btw I 100% stand by that I believe Spak was AtE'ing at the beginning of the game. I just didn't necessarily read scum intent behind it.

So yeah as of pg. 8, I am standing by my Sword's scum read.

Continuing on pg. 8, This post really irks me in it looking like opportunistic WATT hopping onto my wagon. The reason I say it is opportunistic is that WATT comes in and votes me after the dislike for my slot comes around enough for people to vote me. (Fanny/Dancer/Gheb's approval) Also going on at the time WATT's wagon is gaining steam with votes from Laundry/Rake/Gheb which makes me also have a theory. I am thinking currently of a WATT/Dancer scum-team makes a lot of plausible sense. Especially when combined with the course of actions in pg. 8 especially when looking at my slot from a Town perspective. WATT also was on the "let's follow Jmeta" train for D1 until I ask him a question and he starts being backed into a corner so he latches onto my slot.

Here is the vote-post from pg. 10

Tell me, what do you think of WATT's 318? Do you think his vote against you was unfair and if so why?

This post speaks volumes to me because especially under my theory, this is evidence of actions from Fanny starting the wagon for Dancer to jump onto with WATT being able to try and sway the wagon from me onto him. Currently, looking at a WATT/Dancer scum-team. I would also say that Dancer and WATT have a clear disconnect from each other that they have not been commenting on each other in the thread. Dancer did not comment to length on the WATT push which strikes me as odd because he had enough to speak in detail on myself and Spak when WATT was also a cause for concern slot. From these flips I get, a stronger townLaundry read (from his WATT push), an even stronger townSpak read (From Dancer/WATT's collective disgustingly opportunistic push), which puts me ahead in terms of reads for D3 if my theory is consistent

You're completely right, actually. Me and WATT haven't commented on each other much at all during the whole Rake vs. WATT thing. I still haven't really commented on WATT. There's nothing I can really say other than I simply didn't really care about his slot. Why? Poor scumhunting + work fatigue + I simply cared about you more. Yes that last sentence sounds like AtE ut it's the truth like it or not.

see Fanny posting, I am nodding along, I don't get the uber hard-on everyone has for that slot though. I mean a lot of what Fanny says is just "well yeah", but he is dogging my slot and not really doing much else. *shrug* I don't see him fitting into my puzzle of WATT/Dancer currently, but I keep re-reading his posts and keep saying "...and?". I think this may be a playstyle thing though, because in another game that Fanny himself brought up I was able to nail him in a heartbeat when he was scum. However, that was D4. I'm gonna continue to watch Fanny because everyone just seems to be okay with him being town. For now, town by association that I will want to re-look at later.

I am still not feeling Rake scum and it really makes me go "...?" to the people that are reading him as scum. I stand by my reasoning that no one has given me a reason to look at Rake yet and I stand by that even more on re-reading D1. Speaking of people who make me feel good is Kantrip as well. Rake and Kantrip just seem to have a similar way of making me think they are not scummy with just none of their posts just striking a chord with me. They are logical, coherent, feel like townies trying to find scum and not reeking of mal-intent from other slots this game that come to mind. Only problem I have with these slots, which is ironically identical, is their presence comes in short bursts and then they disappear for pages on end. However, when they do post I like them.

K, just quoting to segregate this part from the others.

-Pg. 12; Found my next point of interest against Dancer.



This reads post is Dancer playing the "let's sit on the fence and look like I'm doing things and having read's this game!" I'm gonna hone in on certain things real quick so I'm beating a dead horse with the "I dislike Dancer/his reads are balls passive" He starts to lay back heat on me after my wagon starts losing appeal, he gives himself outs to RR/Rosa, but the curious one is WATT where he fails to take a stance on WATT, but with every other read he's got an opinion. Here he says verbatim:

"...and thus have failed to form an opinion about it. Don't worry guys, I'll get to it I swear!"

Meh, I don't actually have a great defense to this. Keeping my vote on you at that point in the game was ****ty and I can honestly see where you're coming from. My bad.

Wrt RR, I ultimately DID decide that I did not want him lynched yesturDay, so I did follow up on that.

Wrt Rosa, Rosa WAS playing safe and even though it was a mislynch I still hold by what I said about that slot.

Then he continues on to almost beg that people keep Spak on the table, but does nothing to push this besides "Come on guys, don't let him get away!" which goes along with my theory that Dancer isn't scum-hunting, but just appealing to the masses. Literally, with all his reads and him saying "idk where to go" but does nothing to further his scum-hunt or anything. He just sits on reads and harps on them when asked.

What I said about Spak given the context was completely called for. Look at it from my perspective, we have a slot EVERYONE is town reading who's play consists of nothing more than doing "nice" things. Who wouldn't in their right mind find that bothersome?

Another thing that bugs me about Dancer is that he keeps using this phrase which he even has used on D2 which is "I want to lynch J for information" which is a cop out reason to lynch and something I find scummy. Information lynches are fine in my book, but when it is becoming pretty much the only and sole reason to lynch someone on D2, then that is something I find bad. D1 is the day for informational lynches and inactive lynches. D1 I was barely here and using the ploy of my lynch being "informational" was garbage because there were way more slots where everyone had opinions on especially when the mass opinion on me was "J is just being J". So what information was he hoping to obtain from that?

This entire paragraph isn't true at all though! I'm pretty sure I said that ONCE, as a supporting reason for why I wanted to go through with your lynch. Where did I use this Day 2? Quote it for me. I made the post calling for your lynch near the end of Day 1 when I saw that we really didn't have much of a direction to go in. I wanted to give town a solid direction to head in before I left for my v/la, so I knew that I had to be a convincing as possible, which is I included that reasoning which btw it WAS good reaoning!).

Don't tell me that information couldn't have been gained out of your lynch. It was a great lynch for information. In matter of fact, this very post from you is prove of that. You yourself mentioned that WATT's vote on you looked opportunistic. Others have pointed out that Maven's vote on you looked opportunistic. Then there were the people who were just saying that you were just playing to your meta. From my perspective, how could they be so sure?

Here's another point to my theory of a WATT/Dancer scum-team:



One lynch is for "information" while the other is a policy lynch. Yet, he continues to say he has no stance on WATT, but by saying this he knows that WATT is up for a lynch. That brings again that disconnect of Dancer not willing to put a solid feel on WATT and distancing himself from that plus offering up "solutions" against his lynch.

Moving on, why does Rosa "like" all of my posts, but then says I'm scummy. I did not get her lol.

Rosa wagon snap did not have much evidence of anything honestly besides just a bunch of quick pile on votes. The only one that stuck out to me was Kantrip's who said "I am voting Rosa because she is one of my scum-reads" rather than everyone who was like "lol deadline" and that actually gives Kanty more town-points in my opinion because I do not feel scum would be that set on saying they were backing a read of theirs if they "knew" it was going to flip unfavorable to their statement.

And those are my notes from D1. I am gonna wrap up this post so I may continue onto D2, but I have been here for a majority of D2 so I am just going to stick to the latter portion where I left off.

Scum: WATT/Dancer
Town: Spak, Laundry, Kanty, Rake
Indy feels: Maven/Fanny
What do: Ryu/Ryker

So I am deadset on the WATT/Dancer train and will be gunning for them for blood at this juncture. I am pretty comfy with my town reads currently and really see no reason to discuss them. Earlier I was talking about Indy feels around Maven and I still stand by that he would be my biggest read for Indy and then I would have Fanny be next in line for that. I do not get the overwhelming town-vibes from Fanny and just a lot of him saying the same thing a lot like a parrot since people have called him town for that earlier. Maven is more because of his explosive lash outs when people call him scum (I.e. Gheb v. Maven), but I do not get scum-team vibes from either. I am also not really looking at indy's because although we have proof that an indy exists in mod-confirmed info and what appears to be their way of killing (poisoning via Laundry claiming it). However, Laundry has claimed to be cured so I the Indy is already having a foot in the ground regarding their kills.

With the What Do category is simply put, I don't know where they go. That's my null pile because I do like quite a bit of what Ryker is posting but I have no clear reason to call him town. Plus I dislike the Rake push so that puts him in a unfavorable light in my eyes, especially with WATT being on it as well. Ryu's claim is janky and also just meh to read and when reading D1, his early play did read as scummy but then near the end he became more genuine and I know scumRyu is much more disgenuine. I am just uneasy to put that slot onto either side. I would lean probably scum on Ryu and town on Ryker on gut though.

I am operating under the idea that with a killing Indy the scum-team would make sense to be a 2 person team with an Indy floating around. So that's why me reads are as such.

Anyways, I'm tired and need to take a breather before moving onto D2 because this post took up a large chunk of my night/morning and it is now the afternoon I am realizing when I started this post at like 5am my time.....lordy...

Okay, so here's the thing:

You're right about one thing in particular, Day 1 I didn't follow up like I should have in several instances. I think I was justified to push you early but the later it got the more lazy I became and I let my vote sit on you when I should not have. The thing is is that what you've noticed is not scum play but just bad play, but it's a good observation that I'll take as constructive criticism should I play mafia again in the future.

Anyways you're about to be mega frustrated with me J but I want to reevaluate my reads, reason being that even though I just rebutted your post I actually really liked it + I liked your play coming into toDay and now I really don't feel like I have a solid direction. I'm not even confident in Ryu who was my other scum pick, as other have said it doesn't make sense from a scum perspective to have randomly claimed the things he did.

I can't give you a timestamp, but we gave you a whole Day to play! So fair is fair, right?

 

[Fandangox]

@ #HBC | J Can you elaborate on your read on WATT? Your wall there explains why you dislike Dancer, but have WATT mainly there for the timing on his votes, What if Dancer is town, would you still consider WATT scum?

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

from who, j or wott?


Honestly I wouldn't count out the power of assumptions here. There's just enough activity going on with information that Rake doesn't have for him to think that Ruy was lying when he had no business to. It does look like it requires elaboration but Rake did open by voting him with the line "explain". That looks stupid to everyone else but not to the person in his crosshairs, for obvious reasons. I'm pretty sure he also had a post saying to pile on votes onto Ruy to try to get him to crack. I don't see scumminess from these actions.

Both J and Wott. Indy talk at the moment is basically worthless.

You don't think "looks like it requires elaboration" jumping to "try to get him to crack" is abnormal?

 

[Maven89]

I actually typed out a larger post but realized there's a simple question that could answer a lot of issues

@ #HBC | J Was this re-read actually your first read through the game?

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

Also basically Rake's reasons for disliking Ryu are garbage and he's refusing to list them concisely because he can't actually come up with anything that even sounds reasonable for why he flipped his stance on Ryu toDay.

I already gave a big list not one poage ago. top mudslinging with statements like this lol. it doesn't help you push me or even read as convincing

Also, sounding reasonable doesnt make you a town player. Me and Orbo were the most reasonable people in FE&A and we rolled that game. I don't know why you refuse to acknowledge that i literally just gave my reasons as to why i can have my reservations on RYu

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

@ #HBC | Ryker Here it is, sorry it took a bit.

1. Wots All This Then? (Orboknown/Jdietz Hydra) - I do like how they made no mention of my play til i called them out on it, they have not been helpful either day and I find their play to be very subpar. Not a priority lynch at this point but one I would look at.

3. Maven89 - sigh, I'll admit me voting him yesterday was to not die. But...sigh I didn't want his lynch. I saw sparks of good play there and I wanted to let him stick for him to offer better play for town to use overall. He had good ideas, I get what laundry said about the arms reach thing, and I do think that deserves questions for but, idk I just don't think he is a good angle right now.

4. Kantrip - I don't recall much of d1, late entry and all. But I have loved his D2 play so far, he is gving good insight and making the right plays to make sure he is trying to find out who is scum!

5. Spak _ I like how Fand got him to ante up more, but again I do not think he is a priority right now and find him to be more lost town than scum.

7. FandangoX - he is town.

8. Red Ryu -

9. #HBC | Dancer - he is town.

10. #HBC | Ryker - I like your play right now, and I find it to be a lot more helpful to try and make town get it's **** together. I am cautious off paranoia, but..I gotta agree with virtually everything you have said this day.

11. Rake the Macaroni Jabroni - I liked his day 1, hated his day 2. Day 2 has no depth of thought and thinking of player he know well, he knows me very damn well...but with the role shenanigans, I forgive some of it. Part of it was my fault not knowing the mechanics of the game. That said why is he still voting me when he acknowledged this? That makes zero sense to me if this is town Rake.

12. Laundry - Town...I am butting heads with him a lot but I understand why, he hates my day one and how I handled my role...but I don't blame him at all. My day 1 was garbage, I agree and will admit my faults there. Day 2...his ability to look into that....I like that a lot. Especially for my Spak explanation.

13. #HBC | J - I do not get J, his read on me and Maven has no logical progression, he says he wants me first easly on....then 180'd to say he wanted Maven over me....and this was before I was posting better content. This makes zero sense to me, why did J flip this read at all?

Vote: J

Rake is number 2 for me if he does not explain himself better.

what have i not explained. What game are you freaking reading ryu.



tell me what i have to explain and i will literally write you yet another novel since apparently what i've done so far hasnt made it through to you

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

I don't like ryu because

• His D1 was literally just passable enough for me to defend him being lynched based on just what I saw then. It was at best Ryu displaying just enough interest for me to say he was "in" the game. And even though his slow plodding style aggravated other people, I decided on it's own it wasn't worth a lynch, however:
• -At night when I recieved his call, I felt there were shenanigans with how fast it ended, and the fact i remembered ryu claiming no such power as phone calls. This combined with what I read as him dipping from our convo meant his d1 went from town passable to scum doing just enough passable.
• His explanation of his role was really poor, and Laundry pushed him on it, and I still dislike the idea of handwaving ryu not knowing what his role did as "role / flavor wifom", It just doesn't sit right with me that he'd have no idea a phone could make phone calls
• His one shot track reeks of BS. Sister role or not, it doesn't make any sense bull**** flavor or not for him to just be magically granted a one shot track, and when he claimed it I instantly felt it was the old fear tactic like "hey look guys i can be useful, don't lynch me" I've done the same sort of claim thing as scum, and I can't ssay i couldn't see Ryu doing it.
• He's clinging to scum reading me now when almost his whole basis for voting me was thinking I stole the phone from Rosie, and now with saying I haven't explained myself is ridiculous. I've been totally open with my thoughts since starting this. I can't even fathom how he's gone in such a 180 on me based on how he's posting about me

Oh and for bonus points, I had my doubts posted in thread because it occured to me as i typed what kantrip had already thought of, and I posted it before he posted his giant role theory or at least before I had even read the thing. So him saying his post caused me to throttle back is totalt bull**** and he knows it.



Oh and bonus bonus points, I hate how Ryker can have all the terrible reads he wants now that he's cleared. Making todday about Me vs J is assinine. Like wow yeah great idea lets pigeon hole a day of content between circling the same points on J over and over again and ryker not liking me because...he doesn't agree with me ? A+

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

This is interesting. But it's a bit presumptuous on details. (aka if you stole that phone to know these for sure, now is the time yeah?)

The problem with Ryu isn't believing he has a phone that had those properties, it's that he's already scummy and it doesn't actually clear him to have the phone when it's only proven ability is to neighborize and there's a confirmed Indy faction in the game. It doesn't feel out of place for an Indy to get both second hand track results and be a neighbor as a power, and based on how Ryu's been acting this game (entirely isolated from everyone else) that's what I've been betting he is.


I agree Rake's approach to this whole thing has been less than stellar as well though, especially trying to push the non-use item as a point of contention while claiming even he himself didn't know what his phone did when he got it, that's some hypocritical **** right there.

except the flavour was I didn't know what to do with it you putz

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

Also J, did the old man touch you in your special place ? You can tell us

Also also if i was indy I'd be having alot more fun and trust me im having like no fun

Also also also as indy i play beyond townie. Like beyond all comprehension towny because i think it's a great way to earn yourself leeway later.

Just read Disney mafia or Utricked 3 where Swiss mind controlled J and turned him into scum with him ryker and whoever the othe member was when i had like...4 differnt claims including Town Queenmaker and Town JoAT.

Just saying. Self meta is a real thing and I havent played in like half a year. I wouldnt try something new trsut me. Im stubborn

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

Also i really do apologize for dipping so much and my sporadicness. I've been sleeping alot more because my back's been destroying me this week. And now my legs are giving me the same issue. Its been really bad but I'm hoping it liggtens up. I've also been swamped with car issues (I got in a accident in one work van, totaled the other when I killed bambi and just this weekend our rental had its fuel line cut and gas siphoned. So the stress of money for insurance and rent and stuff has really been wearing me down

its not johns im just saying imma do better to be around after i gt paid again next week.

 

[#HBC | J]

Yes! I am so excited that I got that correct. I never get these things right so I am actually super giddy. I am absolutely loving the flavor/theme of this game.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

You have done basically nothing this phase and only even posted any of that after Ryu prodded you..

Not really, I was starting my catchup reading when he posted at us and it gave me a notification so I responded. Thread would've gotten all of it regardless. I hold to my belief we'd have gotten none of what Ryu posted if he hadn't been pushed solidly to the edge.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Continuing on pg. 8, This post really irks me in it looking like opportunistic WATT hopping onto my wagon. The reason I say it is opportunistic is that WATT comes in and votes me after the dislike for my slot comes around enough for people to vote me. (Fanny/Dancer/Gheb's approval) Also going on at the time WATT's wagon is gaining steam with votes from Laundry/Rake/Gheb which makes me also have a theory. I am thinking currently of a WATT/Dancer scum-team makes a lot of plausible sense. Especially when combined with the course of actions in pg. 8 especially when looking at my slot from a Town perspective. WATT also was on the "let's follow Jmeta" train for D1 until I ask him a question and he starts being backed into a corner so he latches onto my slot.

Here is the vote-post from pg. 10



This post speaks volumes to me because especially under my theory, this is evidence of actions from Fanny starting the wagon for Dancer to jump onto with WATT being able to try and sway the wagon from me onto him. Currently, looking at a WATT/Dancer scum-team. I would also say that Dancer and WATT have a clear disconnect from each other that they have not been commenting on each other in the thread. Dancer did not comment to length on the WATT push which strikes me as odd because he had enough to speak in detail on myself and Spak when WATT was also a cause for concern slot. From these flips I get, a stronger townLaundry read (from his WATT push), an even stronger townSpak read (From Dancer/WATT's collective disgustingly opportunistic push), which puts me ahead in terms of reads for D3 if my theory is consistent.

This connection theory is pretty presumptuous. Let me remind you the actual question you asked: wherein actually no we were getting waggoned pretty hard at the time and you definitely looked like you were posturing to be in for a piece of the easy push, asking no "question" at all.

Tbh, I am surprised you aren't on me. Last I remember, you are one of the few people who are always on me regardless of what game it is. It is striking me as a bit off that you aren't trying to combat me like you usually do.

Well with a sentence like that you've certainly got my attention now.

What purpose as Town do you have of making this post if you aren't immediately following it with a Watt push for the meta you just claimed?

I can't speak for Orbo, but as of right now I'm thinking Laundry is likely town even if he's got a hard on for us. Dancer now that I've read him also seems town.

I keep flip flopping on Maven because I disliked his opening but liked that he was willing to go to Ryu and Fanny before anyone else, and I'm not yet sure whether Rake is on us for legit reasons or just riding us because it's easy and he wants us gone.

Right now, I want to know why Rosalina is still on you, as well as why J looks like he's looming in for the easy swoop on us but just mudslinging instead. I'd also super appreciate Fandangox getting mroe invovlved, I feel like so far there's been an abundance of opinions but a lack of content.



I don't have much to say on this that wouldn't be an echo of Dancer, but it feels like the correct direction. That "why aren't you pushing me" post seems like the most opportunistic of posturing. That's damning us if we do or if we don't while keeping your hands clean either way, gross.

Vote: J

Vote: Destroy the Ring

I also don't know what you're talking about when you say we were on the "Lets follow Jmeta" train, because up until then we had no interaction with you positive or negative, because as of before maybe a page before that post you hadn't actually done anything yet.

an even stronger townSpak read (From Dancer/WATT's collective disgustingly opportunistic push), which puts me ahead in terms of reads for D3 if my theory is consistent.

What is this quote referring to? I don't see how Spak works into this equation at all.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Plus I dislike the Rake push so that puts him in a unfavorable light in my eyes

(this line is wrt to Ryker at Rake, not actually Rake's push right?)

 

[Wots All This Then?]

@ Wots All This Then?

You asked for my opinion on the "theory" you posted and I think it is really reaching for a reason to keep the focus of toDay on Rake/Ryu. So you are saying both are scum independently solely based on the claim shenanigans? I find that very hard to believe and am incredibly skeptical to that notion.

It wouldn't be solely based on claim shenanigans, but yeah that's a big part of what made me think of hte possibility.

Ryker saying "one of them is town" made me realize that isn't necessarily true. I realize it's left field, but I saw something everyone else wasn't even considering that seemed to make sense and didn't want it to just float by, hence asking everyone to weigh in.


Let me ask you: do you honestly believe Dancer is a better direction?

 

[Wots All This Then?]

I want you to look at this through Rake's eyes based on what he's claimed. Between the end of D1 and the start of D2:
-He receives a phone as a result of hammering Rosie as this was one of Rosie's items.
-At some point, this phone activates during the night.
-He receives a message, probably stating that it was Ruy, and was asked how he had the phone.
-The phone messages get cut off again inexplicably.

That looks strange, especially given that the guy on the other end claimed yesterday that his phone could only receive messages. Sure, level heads would've just opened the phase by asking a litany of questions, but Rake thought he had a bingo and most people with bingos don't give their targets an inch. Why, then, is it scummy for him to walk into the thread and immediately try to push the slot if he thinks he has something close to a guilty?

That's my biggest problem with this angle of the Rake push. I think Rake's approach makes sense from a townie perspective, even if I think he was somewhat moronic about it, and I can't buy it as a scummy thing alone without significant persuasion as a result.

And, say Ruy's the mafia in this situation, is Rake still an Indy? Do you think Ruy has the things he has while also being a poisoner?

Mmmm if Ryu is the mafia in this situation then I don't think I'd be able to say if Rake was Indy, no. The only reason I brought it up is because it seemed to explain both Ryu's behavior and Rake's, but I get that it's a stretch to try and figure this stuff out before flips. I disagree that Rake's entrance strategy wasn't objectively bad though, he had information that would have been way easier to come into thread with up front so people knew he had something and Ryu had to respond and we could sort. Even something like "You called me. You said that was impossible." would have given us all a grounded point.

On the other hand, the reason I didn't like that method while re-examining is because it left room for nonsense "Gotcha" lies by changing the stakes of what was on his side of things after Ryu replied, and he didn't. I'm going to have to re-read that entire section.

I didn't consider anything about the mechanics of poisoning when I brought it up. But I don't think that really matters because anyone could lie about what they also secretly still have.

Although there's a mod confirmed indy I'm not really worried about it until we get a mafia flip and have to worry about connections. While it's possible that Rake went so hard with bad reasoning because he has info from being scum that condemns ryu as a different faction of scum, I don't really care to think about it until I've gotten Rake's flip

Fair enough. I got excited I thought I saw something big, I'll drop the alignment speculation and just stick to scumreads until we get something solid.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Yes I am not sure what it did outside of calling people o thought it let me get messages, not get them.

No, I mean like: you said you could send messages or "Call Phone or something". I don't get why the "or something" unless you're BS'ing/hiding something about it or Bard straight up told you that the phone did other things but that he wouldn't tell you what they were. The description should still exist in your PM.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

I attempt to make convincing arguments for why my vote is against someone that I believe has scummy intent, so that naturally provokes conversation.

That didn't answer Laundry's question, unless you're actually trying to imply that you've been the impetus for the Rake swing.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Also J, did the old man touch you in your special place ? You can tell us

Also also if i was indy I'd be having alot more fun and trust me im having like no fun

Also also also as indy i play beyond townie. Like beyond all comprehension towny because i think it's a great way to earn yourself leeway later.

Just read Disney mafia or Utricked 3 where Swiss mind controlled J and turned him into scum with him ryker and whoever the othe member was when i had like...4 differnt claims including Town Queenmaker and Town JoAT.

Just saying. Self meta is a real thing and I havent played in like half a year. I wouldnt try something new trsut me. Im stubborn

I don't think anyone was calling you Indy except Laundry in a role reversal hypothetical to me.

and just this weekend our rental had its fuel line cut and gas siphoned.

Yo Wat.

Who does this. That's messed up.



Also nightly Smashboards nightly backups why do you have to be when I'm posting each night.

 

[Spak]

That didn't answer Laundry's question, unless you're actually trying to imply that you've been the impetus for the Rake swing.

Yeah, I misread his question of "why is your read the wagon de jour" as making the wagon de jour rather than following. I understand what he was trying to say now and I can see why he's saying it; scum would likely just go along with other people's reads in order to keep in the shadows. My answer still stands about me reading based off of my opinion, and if you look back, I've not used my vote until I was fairly sure of someone (or it was REALLY late in the day). I'd be perfectly fine lynching Rake because of his scummy early D2 play (unless very convincing evidence comes out about someone else, or an ability proves Rake is a town slot), doesn't matter if the rest of the wagon crashes to a halt or not.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

In yer own words
Why is rake scummy? I don't remember you saying anything about this yet

 

[Spak]

Summery p. 20-23

Spoiler

Rake Pressures Ryu right out of the gate, says that he won't explain why he's pushing Ryu until Ryu talks about "it". Wots says Ryker was redirected and never questioned if he was lying about targeting Gheb. Ryker then asked if anyone was roleblocked last night, which got no response. Rake takes Ryker's question of if Ryu messaged anyone (in which Ryker votes for Maven, and that happened after he was accused of redirecting attention) and says that's the reason he's voting Ryu (messaging someone isn't a good reason to vote for them). (Most scummy intent thus far: Rake for the badly explained, uncalled for pressure on Ryu)

The which restriction exchange was unimportant, so I'll skip that.

Wots said that the jailer was the only roleblocking entity, J points out that it's a logical fallacy, then Rake points out Ryu's post that says "I can get messages sometimes" and calls for everyone to vote Ryu for that. Wots says that the one roleblock role was a silly assumption to make, and I state that there could be more than one jailer, which is then said to be unlikely by Wots. Rake then asks J who's scum, and I find the Berserker role. Ryker emphasizes J's logical fallacy point, and then Ryker (to the rescue) sees that Rake has not elaborated anything significant on the Ryu vote whatsoever. Rake then states that his Ryu vote is because he said he only got messages (which is a insignificant difference). (Scummy intent: Rake)

Rake reads seem pretty safe, then asks why someone would want reads from him (pretty suspicious). Ryker is still re-reading, provides info on how he thinks I am being too defensive but am new, and how Rake is null. He also provides us with a wonderful picture. Ryker asks if Rake thinks that the distinction between messages and calls is worth a lynch, then says that he likes Fanny. Wots says we need a full claim and votes Ryu. In his re-read, Ryker points out that Rake's push on Wots was very weak. J says he wants to dig his teeth into Maven more, has to re-read Laundry, and calls Dancer mechanical.

Ryker responds to Laundry's question if he's town (why would Ryker say he isn't?) and I post a vote order on Rosa for the previous day. J explains why my questioning of everyone's motives behind the Rosa swing is ineffective, then Dancer and J talk a bit about is "mechanical" behavior, before Ryker responds with his J and Dancer reads and I respond to the question of J. Wots questions why I thought Maven would have more to gain from not killing Gheb than killing him, and I respond that it's not much more than a gut feeling. J pushes me farther to figure out where my head's at, and asks about my opinion on the Wots, Maven, and Ryu slot. (Rake isn't here)

Dancer has an elaborate speech on his reads, and states that he wants J to talk to him about the Maven scum lean. Ryu explains last night that he could call and see who picked up, and Rake was on the other side. He asks Rake to explain his vote on him. Ryker then says he's on the bottom of page 7 and that Ryu is garbage based on asking null questions, and how he really doesn't like Rake's voting D2 and although it's fair, it was too premature of a claim. Dancer points out that J hadn't re-read D1 before the Maven pressure. Ryu said he only received the info about calls in the night phase. J talks about Ryu trying to be buddy-buddy and states that as a reason for disliking Ryu. (Rake still not here)

Dancer support's Wots' read on Ryu and says that's the same way he feels. J accuses Dancer of town leaning the people who agree with him. Ryu re-clarified that he wasn't told about calling until the night phase. Ryu asked why we don't have town leans hammer and J responds with how it was a quick wagon-snap. Ryker begins to feel uncomfortable with the Ryu vote and unvotes. J says he "hasn't had much a problem with Rake this game" and Ryu is in the "'will lynch' pile", then says Rake is a town lean (based upon not having much of a problem with him) and Ryu is a scummy lean. Wots asks for clarification of why Ryker is uncomfortable with the Ryu vote, and Ryker says he's a disgusting punching bag, then asks for reads. Ryu gives reads, Wots is as "place holder" vote with absolutely no elaboration. Ryker says the Ryu lynch is a freebie. Ryu points out Rake shouldn't get a free town pass for doing nothing and asks for elaboration from J. (Still no Rake)

Dancer talks about how he thinks Mav and Fan are town reads, then asks why J asks and asks J to answer his question. I talked to J about my reads on Ryu at his request. J asks for places where Dancer started town-reading Maven and why he likes Fanny's play. J asks about mine and Ryker's slot reads, and Dancer replies with a slight town read on both. J then goes on to talk about how Dancer has "too easy" town reads. Ryker talks about his reads as of page 8. J is playing with the idea of Dancer scum and Ryker protests. J defends my slot being town and says that "other fish look tastier to fry". Ryker likes Laundry's catch-up D1 and calls J's #351 "completely unrelated to the game at hand". He then votes Maven for being opportunistic D1. (Where did Rake go?)

J is talking about how both of his games are exploding and Dancer takes the push against him happily. Ryker talks about Maven and Ryker doesn't want to lynch me anymore (based upon J's talk). Ryker says that a Rake scum is more likely to be the experienced player. Laundry questions Ryu some more. I'm not alone in my want to question Gheb before the NK (so did Laundry), so that's reassuring. J asks for updated reads on Maven, Ryu, Rake, and Wots from Laundry. Rake questions Laundry's questions. Laundry explains why he targeted Ryker with the orb. (Did Rake die? I also just realized Maven hasn't been on for D2 thus far)

Confirmed, Ryker has junk in his inventory. Laundry justifies his team read early-game because of lack of info from everyone. Wots doesn't seem to like Ryu's vote, or Ryu for that matter. Laundry responds to the question posed to Dancer from J. J theorizes based on the apparent Wots/Ryu rivalry (which isn't hugely evident). Laundry thinks that the J analysis of Ryu and Rake is accurate, calls Dancer's play "garage" (with the typo included). Wots said he can't accept Ryu as town, which will probably come back to bite him in the event that Ryu flips town. Dancer elaborates on his reads, then Laundry thinks that Ryu is REALLY scummy, then states he doesn't care for Maven. (Seriously, where did Maven and Rake go?)

That took a while. So far, I think that Rake is scummy. I haven't seen anything town about his play early in D2 (push on Ryu with little reasoning, questioning why someone would want his list of reads, etc.) and then he just kinda left after he saw pressure building up on him. Maven has been MIA for a while, but based on his D1 play that I went back and skimmed over, he seems pretty town. Dancer, Fanny, Ryker, and Laundry seem like town reads to me. J seems a bit scummy because of the Dancer push and lack of reason for the Maven push, but definitely not Rake-level. Ryu seems more town now that I go back and read D2, he just seems to be taking a lot of hits (some of which are undeserved) and not being able to provide as much content as he would otherwise because he's trying to defend himself puts him in a bad spot.

Vote: Rake (at the moment)

Anyways, I'll probably come back and do more of this after lunch.

Pretty much this post. Maybe people didn't read the summery that I made (because it's really long), but in it I noted that Ryu pressures Ryu right out of the gate and says he won't explain why he's pushing until Ryu talks bout "it", says the reason he's voting Ryu is the flimsy argument of a choice of wording (possibly a choice of wording given in the PM). After stating his flimsy argument, he tells everyone to vote Ryu based on the fact that someone used the incorrect term (which is DEFINITELY no grounds for a lynch). Then Rake asks why someone wanted his reads (which is a bit suspicious) and then Rake magically disappears for a LONG time (which he just recently explained). In addition, I saw absolutely no town plays from Rake D2. Then, he went back and used previous games for proof of him not following a playstyle, which is both cherrypicking and he could intentionally be using a different playstyle to make it appear different from his normal scum/indie play. Also, at the end of this summery I stated my reads as of the end of this re-read, which were:

That took a while. So far, I think that Rake is scummy. I haven't seen anything town about his play early in D2 (push on Ryu with little reasoning, questioning why someone would want his list of reads, etc.) and then he just kinda left after he saw pressure building up on him. Maven has been MIA for a while, but based on his D1 play that I went back and skimmed over, he seems pretty town. Dancer, Fanny, Ryker, and Laundry seem like town reads to me. J seems a bit scummy because of the Dancer push and lack of reason for the Maven push, but definitely not Rake-level. Ryu seems more town now that I go back and read D2, he just seems to be taking a lot of hits (some of which are undeserved) and not being able to provide as much content as he would otherwise because he's trying to defend himself puts him in a bad spot.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Both J and Wott. Indy talk at the moment is basically worthless.

You don't think "looks like it requires elaboration" jumping to "try to get him to crack" is abnormal?

No, I don't. I've seen you and I both do similar things when we had information or understands that weren't quite right but we thought they were anyway. It's not an inherently scummy action as townies can look before they leap and do ******** things as a result. He's not easily town for this but all the fury you, Wot, and Kantrip are bringing hasn't really inspired me to hang Rake for anything.

What I want is the answer to "Why would Rake do this as scum?" I can see a logical reasoning for town but I can't see the logical reasoning for scum. Why would he overextend this hard for Ruy? I could buy it was scummy if he was gunning for people like you, J, or I but he chose what's probably the easiest slot to lynch in this game at the moment. He didn't need night shenanigans to bury that slot (no one likes Ruy's play, not even in Ruy) so why come in here gunning for him on night shenanigans? He didn't need to bring extra bull**** to get that lynch. Respond to this with his Ruy read in mind here.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Pretty much this post. Maybe people didn't read the summery that I made (because it's really long), but in it I noted that Ryu pressures Ryu right out of the gate and says he won't explain why he's pushing until Ryu talks bout "it", says the reason he's voting Ryu is the flimsy argument of a choice of wording (possibly a choice of wording given in the PM). After stating his flimsy argument, he tells everyone to vote Ryu based on the fact that someone used the incorrect term (which is DEFINITELY no grounds for a lynch). Then Rake asks why someone wanted his reads (which is a bit suspicious) and then Rake magically disappears for a LONG time (which he just recently explained). In addition, I saw absolutely no town plays from Rake D2. Then, he went back and used previous games for proof of him not following a playstyle, which is both cherrypicking and he could intentionally be using a different playstyle to make it appear different from his normal scum/indie play. Also, at the end of this summery I stated my reads as of the end of this re-read, which were:

Yeh it's even worse when you end up on popular or surging bandwagons for reasons that other members are already claiming. You're not doing yourself any favors.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Yeah, I misread his question of "why is your read the wagon de jour" as making the wagon de jour rather than following. I understand what he was trying to say now and I can see why he's saying it; scum would likely just go along with other people's reads in order to keep in the shadows. My answer still stands about me reading based off of my opinion, and if you look back, I've not used my vote until I was fairly sure of someone (or it was REALLY late in the day). I'd be perfectly fine lynching Rake because of his scummy early D2 play (unless very convincing evidence comes out about someone else, or an ability proves Rake is a town slot), doesn't matter if the rest of the wagon crashes to a halt or not.

"I'm doing it for townie reasons guys, honest!"

 

[Spak]

"I'm doing it for townie reasons guys, honest!"

I don't see why you think I'm not. I listed a bunch of valid reasons and you're just rejecting my reasons and saying I'm trying to do the "I'm helping!" thing. Is there something that people have against helping?

Anyways, off to play League for a little bit. I'll be back later.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

I don't see why you think I'm not. I listed a bunch of valid reasons and you're just rejecting my reasons and saying I'm trying to do the "I'm helping!" thing. Is there something that people have against helping?

Anyways, off to play League for a little bit. I'll be back later.

Yeh you're just a vote on the block and that's all I've got on you. It seems that recently your votes have been more and more flat-out ripoffs on every wagon, just there for the sake of being there. I don't recall you being on something you've found original and I'm pretty sure your scumreads have matched up with all the popular wagons at the time of you being asked. You acting like people like you and that you're contributing more than just a vote doesn't appease me whatsoever.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Mmmm if Ryu is the mafia in this situation then I don't think I'd be able to say if Rake was Indy, no. The only reason I brought it up is because it seemed to explain both Ryu's behavior and Rake's, but I get that it's a stretch to try and figure this stuff out before flips. I disagree that Rake's entrance strategy wasn't objectively bad though, he had information that would have been way easier to come into thread with up front so people knew he had something and Ryu had to respond and we could sort. Even something like "You called me. You said that was impossible." would have given us all a grounded point.

On the other hand, the reason I didn't like that method while re-examining is because it left room for nonsense "Gotcha" lies by changing the stakes of what was on his side of things after Ryu replied, and he didn't. I'm going to have to re-read that entire section.

I never said Rake's entrance wasn't bad. I just failed to see the scum intent behind it, and I still do. There's no reason for any of that **** if he just wanted to lynch Ruy. That slot's play is garbage enough already that you could just quote it all and say "yeh he looks scummiest bury him". Him pulling all this so he has a visible reason to change his mind on that slot, especially when nobody would've complained if he just said "yeh, I reread and I hate Ruy most now", doesn't give me a scumread on him, just that he's a moron.

The only extra explanation that I can imagine all that bull**** is necessary for lynching him is if he had outside knowledge that Ruy would be hard to lynch with his role completely exposed and, given that Ruy had already claimed, I doubt that a lot.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Also J, did the old man touch you in your special place ? You can tell us

Also also if i was indy I'd be having alot more fun and trust me im having like no fun

Also also also as indy i play beyond townie. Like beyond all comprehension towny because i think it's a great way to earn yourself leeway later.

Just read Disney mafia or Utricked 3 where Swiss mind controlled J and turned him into scum with him ryker and whoever the othe member was when i had like...4 differnt claims including Town Queenmaker and Town JoAT.

Just saying. Self meta is a real thing and I havent played in like half a year. I wouldnt try something new trsut me. Im stubborn

S E L F M E T A I S G A R B A G E

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Oh and bonus bonus points, I hate how Ryker can have all the terrible reads he wants now that he's cleared. Making todday about Me vs J is assinine. Like wow yeah great idea lets pigeon hole a day of content between circling the same points on J over and over again and ryker not liking me because...he doesn't agree with me ? A+

Actually I do think it's kinda asinine how he walked in here, said "I don't want this to buy about Ruy today', made such a grand effort for it, and then pigeonholed the day between you and J.