Reality Check: Items, Levels, & Adv Techs

[the grim lizard]

No, I hate ffas, and not because it's not like tournaments. If there is a ffa, I will die fast. That's how it is. With some players I've played with who fancied themselves "good," they all ganged up on me so it was basically 3v1 when I was clearly the best of the group. They are terrible.

Of course, those same people hate playing 2v2 team matches...

 

[Superstar]

1v1 and 2v2 are the way to go. FFA if you want some quick fun, but the most skill comes from 1v1 and 2v2. I will admit that items take some skills to use properly [though they add randomness], but FFAs are the worst kind of matchup skill wise. Triple teaming is the main reason for that.

I've always wanted a team match, I don't know too many people, and I can't go to tournaments/smash fests, so I am depending on online for that kind of fun.

 

[the grim lizard]

The nice thing about online is you can yell at them that they owned, and they won't know, or you can taunt or whatever, and they don't know you.

 

[Rikka]

1v1 and 2v2 are the way to go. FFA if you want some quick fun, but the most skill comes from 1v1 and 2v2. I will admit that items take some skills to use properly [though they add randomness], but FFAs are the worst kind of matchup skill wise. Triple teaming is the main reason for that.

I've always wanted a team match, I don't know too many people, and I can't go to tournaments/smash fests, so I am depending on online for that kind of fun.

Triple teaming is what I expected to hear, and you're right, of course. I just think it's kinda sad, as I could see possibilities, though the flaws hold it back too much.

And I'm in the same boat with the second paragraph. It sucks.

 

[krackizwak]

I am by no mean "good" at SSBM but i dont like using items and the such just b/c they just kinda steal the fun from the game for me and my friends (atleast most of them except for like one or two). I also think advanced techs are a good things my friend plays as marth and is much better at wavedashing then me. THough I main Link and i use some L-canceling and short hop and shield Grabs(though he kinda figured out to watch out for that) and I win most of the time so Wavedashing doesnt really help that much. Then my brother who is marth/Fox who only know some very basic fox combos snd hr beats my friend just as much as he loses.

 

[the grim lizard]

Items/Tourney-banned stages are good for 2am ffa games where you really don't care and you lose because you accidentally ran into a bob-bomb at the last minute or get completely screwed in some other hilarious way. These are fun, too, just not most of the time.

 

[Keige]

I am nor a casual smasher or a tourney smasher. I play Melee with my friend Zack only because he's the only person I know that has the same skill as me or is better. We don't play with items, we play 4 stock, and play on tournament legal stages (mostly FD) .
The only thing I think that doesn't make us tourney players is the fact that we don't enter tournaments. We don't SHFFLC every move, though I'd like to perfect it, and we both can wavedash, we just can't do it in a way that it benefits our game. We are also not Casual Players because we play with tourney rules, and that's "FUN" for us.
Just a little insight to whoever see's it that way.

On topic, this is a brilliant thread. And I WILL WILLWILL reference it whenever n00bs start a flame war about "THIS IS HOW BRAWL SHOULD BE PLAYED" . Gah.

Comepletely awesome post. I completely empathize with you. I play by the same rules and I'm probably just as good as you, but don't go to tournaments. We should play each other when Brawl comes out. I'll PM you my FC when I get it.

 

[OnyxVulpine]

I have nothing against competitive players. I'm just more built for casual playing. When I get all tensed up and determined I start making more and more mistakes.

I know of this because I used to play Counter-Strike a lot. I entered into a tourney and before it actually started at my internet cafe. Most of the teams got into a huge server and started playing to warm up.. Needless to say, I was at the top of both teams...

But when the actual matches started up. I was the lowest on both teams and was worthless.

I have nothing against competitive play and love to watch to see how good people are. I agree with each and everything you say.

 

[Superstar]

Of course, items are best set for FFA's. If I get into an FFA by all means, turn the items on. But if I ever 1v1, I will refuse [by my personal opinion] to play with items.

Also, Keige, I'm in the same predicament. Funny thing is, even when you know you suck, you record yourself, and you are worse than what you think you were.

 

[Keige]

Yeah, I used to think I was awesome at SSB64, until I played online (check out my Youtube profile...ouch!) and get owned by everyone. I've switched to Captain Falcon and playing online against others really helps my get motivated to improve. I've even started playing SSB64 on my PSP, but it runs slowly, but it still helps.

 

[RedWing215]

I'm a long-time lurker on here, but I finally had to register, so I could give my two cents on this issue, as it's beginning to drive me nuts.

First of all, you "tournament" people say that the game was meant to be played the way you guys play it, with items turned off, and certain stages banned, as you have the ability to pick and choose the stages/items and whatnot that you can use. But lets think about it like this -- just because somebody gives you the option to jump off a bridge, does that mean you would do it?

Personally, I strongly believe that even though we have the option to strip the game down to a "bare-bones" version that is "more competitive," the game really wasn't ever meant to solely be played in that manner. I doubt very seriously that when the developers were making this game they had you guys in mind. If they did, then I'm sure that they would have had all items and "unfair stages" turned off by default. This game is not a Mortal Kombat or a Street Fighter. It's Super Smash Freakin' Bros. And the last time I checked, it was made by Nintendo, A.K.A. King of the Party Game.

If anything, I think it's the tourney-goers that could be in for a reality check come time for Brawl to come out. I'm pretty sure that the only way you're going to be able to play as Zamus is when you use a Final (after all, that's how it was shown to us in the trailer), and as for some of these advanced techniques, I wouldn't be 100% confident that they would make it into the next game.

IMO, to really be considered as a pro at this game, you have to learn how to play and embrace both sides of the game. I have no problem playing with items off and whatnot part of the time, but I also think that having everything turned on provides an exciting and exhilarating experience that matches your "tourney-legal" games.

 

[Rikka]

Your talking to a very arrogant person if they say the tournament rules were the way it was meant to be played. If anything it's the people on the opposite side of the argument who say their way is THE way to play.

Your right, the game isn't meant to be played solely that way, nor were the developers thinking of the competitive scene when the game was made. That doesn't mean anything.

So what if some adv techs are taken out, new ones will be found.

Yeah, that is in your opinion. Hectic matches are there own kind of fun.

Really though, you talk as if the competitive players are trying to make you play there way, yet you sound as if you want the competitive scene destroyed and us only playing your way.

Oh yes, once the game is released, most don't care how the developers wanted you to play. They'll play the most fun and available way.

 

[SmashChu]

But snaking doesn't require any intellect. Snaking, you can just practice for a few hours, and all of a sudden you can get through the course much faster than the others.

WD is NOT the same. Try WDing. It will not win you a match. its a technique to be added dynamically to your spacing game, not some set in stone thing you can do to make people automatically lose stocks or something.

If people don't like wavedashers, they will blame WDing, even though the player is more skilled than them anyway. That doesn't mean it's cheap. if it ruins the game for them, then they are stupid. WD in't even hard.

I think we forget something here. Put yourself in someone else's shoes.

For some, wavedashing is hard. Just becuase it wasn't for you doesn't mean it isn't for everyone else. I can do it a little, but not be able to do any in a real game. But, yes, it gives you an unfair advantage then some one else becuase what you are doing isn't in the normal realm of the game, and is not ment to be used like that. Basically, your breaking a rule.

In your example, someone does Falcon punch with you a fair distance away. Now you can punsih him. Essentually, it gicves you an edge. You can now move a good distance over a short amount of time and actual do something that your not suppose to do(or what would be much harder). The fact that you can move and flow better alone gives you an edge others don't have. Yes, your good, that you didn't win with JUST your skill alone. You had a little help, that your oponnent doesn't have. It's not in the manual. Not in a tutorial. So, basically, your pretty much creating. We just don't call it so.

 

[Rikka]

I took the time to look it up, had the patience to learn and apply the technique, and I didn't win with just my skill? Go join in some more competitions for about anything. Go tell a poker player they broke the rules by bluffing.

Also, great of you to make of rules.

 

[RedWing215]

Your right, the game isn't meant to be played solely that way, nor were the developers thinking of the competitive scene when the game was made. That doesn't mean anything.

Really though, you talk as if the competitive players are trying to make you play there way, yet you sound as if you want the competitive scene destroyed and us only playing your way.

I don't think you quite understood what I was trying to say.

I don't care if you play with items turned off every once in a while. After all, that's you're prerogative. That's certainly one way to play the game. But the thing is that it seems there are certain facets of this game, especially once Brawl comes out, that are probably going to require all of us to master both sides of the game. That means that "tourney-goers" may have to step out on a limb and possibly do a few things that they may not want to do, such as play with an item or two on.

The fact of the matter is, you should be able to embrace both sides of the game. Not only will it make the world a more peaceful place, but it would make you a better player, too. And if you can't bring yourself to do that, then you probably should be playing DOA or Street Fighter instead of Smash.

 

[Desruprot]

I am very much a casual player...I do not play as offen as I used to by the skill stays with (well my wavedashing has faded though which is a bummer). I have nothing against tournament players since I do not play "official" tournaments. So I guess I remain fine with the way I am...I can usually handle anyone although I am not sure at this point...

 

[greenblob]

I don't know about anyone else, but for me, after I started playing smash at a competitive level, it's very difficult to go back down. "Casual" smashing becomes tedious, slow, and frustrating.

 

[Rikka]

It's not like items were turned off because the majority all thought, "thr teh suxors" There were reasons they were removed.

I hope the Brawl can get rid of those reasons. I want to see some items in tourneys.

 

[Bassoonist]

I don't think you quite understood what I was trying to say.

I don't care if you play with items turned off every once in a while. After all, that's you're prerogative. That's certainly one way to play the game. But the thing is that it seems there are certain facets of this game, especially once Brawl comes out, that are probably going to require all of us to master both sides of the game. That means that "tourney-goers" may have to step out on a limb and possibly do a few things that they may not want to do, such as play with an item or two on.

The fact of the matter is, you should be able to embrace both sides of the game. Not only will it make the world a more peaceful place, but it would make you a better player, too. And if you can't bring yourself to do that, then you probably should be playing DOA or Street Fighter instead of Smash.

I understand where you're coming from, as a casual player myself.

However, Smash is a really great fighting game, and some don't like those other fighters. They shouldn't be forced to play with items on, as we shouldn't be forced to play with them off.

 

[Adi]

To those who are saying that competitive players should try out tournaments with items the fact of the matter is we did. Original tournaments that took place on the West Coast were inclusive to almost the entire list of items. However as time passed, players began to realize and became annoyed with the sheer luck factor and soon we gradually adopted the style of tournament you're probably familiar with today.

Regardless of what is done with items it will most likely remain out of tournament play. Why? Because items always favor the lesser of two players.

Take for example a set of 10 matches. Assuming equal conditions we can always expect the more skilled player to win right? Now let's add items into the mix. If the more skilled player happens to be lucky with items it is irrelvant to him as it is just a victory that he would have had anyways. However if the lesser player happens to be lucky and perhaps even wins a match due to luck that is one win in his record against a player who is more skilled than him.

It's the unfortunate truth, but the sad fate that items are destined to.

 

[Salaad]

I think we forget something here. Put yourself in someone else's shoes.

For some, wavedashing is hard. Just becuase it wasn't for you doesn't mean it isn't for everyone else. I can do it a little, but not be able to do any in a real game. But, yes, it gives you an unfair advantage then some one else becuase what you are doing isn't in the normal realm of the game, and is not ment to be used like that. Basically, your breaking a rule.

In your example, someone does Falcon punch with you a fair distance away. Now you can punsih him. Essentually, it gicves you an edge. You can now move a good distance over a short amount of time and actual do something that your not suppose to do(or what would be much harder). The fact that you can move and flow better alone gives you an edge others don't have. Yes, your good, that you didn't win with JUST your skill alone. You had a little help, that your oponnent doesn't have. It's not in the manual. Not in a tutorial. So, basically, your pretty much creating. We just don't call it so.

Lol, don't tell me you haven't cheated or broken a rule before...Instead of whining about it, adapt to it. If I were to play in item-based tournies, I would have to adapt to it instead of say "You got lucky" and it does take skill to do advanced Techs so yes, I did win with MY skill alone..

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Good post, good way to put it to the people.

 

[THEmSHAKE]

I play both with and without items. Why, do you ask? No reason, just to change things up. While I'll agree with your statement about items putting in luck to a certain degree; To me, saying that someone won because of an item or “getting lucky” is just an excuse. The formula is as follows-- luck=excuse. I say this because there are defences against items such as catching a thown items, de-hammering someone, reflecting a laser pistol blast, and others.
I have no problem playing by these rules. However, you mentioned that any host can play by their own rules (items on). While this is true, are the winners recognised nationaly? Say by.......smashboards. If not, (and I don't know) then item people do have a legitimate argument and your statement somewhat untrue. Who said there should only this kind or that kind of tournament worthy of recognition? Really, theres no need for all this conflict when there are simple solutions.

 

[psicicle]

while you can counter items, the fact remains that it puts the person without the powerful item at a disadvantage. Some items can't be countered such as heart containers, tomatoes, food and the like. Some can be tough to dodge like the strong projectiles.

Also, items just clutter up the battlefield to me.

 

[Problem2]

Items aren't in tournaments because if two players of "almost" equal skill play, the items will play a bigger factor than the skill of both players. I would elaborate, but this topic has been well covered.

 

[Rikka]

*begins to sing*
There was a time in this world of Smash where two sides each had their own rules.
One side declared, "these items these stage go back to which thence came!"
Yet the other side said,"they are there, they are there, they are meant to be played"
But when the two sides clashed to see who was the best of all, a war was started, a war that ended it all.
They argued day in and day out, over these things, these items and stages which created much controversy.
The first side said, "these items create luck, these stages unfair!"
The second side said, "oh you are wrong, they exist, they appear, they shall not dissappear"

But in the end the second side heard what the first had to say, they listened and quarreled but in the end agreed.

And both sides kicked the items out, declaring the luck they carried to be unnecessary. Those stages brought imbalance, and all saw the trouble they caused.

And now while the stages have been forgotten about, the poor items are still fought about.
They are dragged by those who want them back, yet cannot return to the land of Smash in this time of....Melee.

That's what I gathered from what I heard about Smash tourney history. Not so simple, eh?

 

[The Hypnotist]

Excellent points. I agree with virtually everything. Except for the fact that you make it seem as if the wavedash isn't that big, as if it's not game breaking in the least. I'd have to disagree. With wavedashing you can move backwards without changing direction, while attacking, while moving into an edge hog and allow some characters to move extremely fast. If you don't call that somewhat game breaking, or "completley unintentional" then your just in denial. Everything else I agree with. And I'm for wavedashing, just don't lie and make it seem like it's nothing, it's very important.

 

[SmashChu]

Lol, don't tell me you haven't cheated or broken a rule before...Instead of whining about it, adapt to it. If I were to play in item-based tournies, I would have to adapt to it instead of say "You got lucky" and it does take skill to do advanced Techs so yes, I did win with MY skill alone..

I really, really, don't think you understood a thing a siad.

This is talking about online. For the sake of online. But, also the type of skill in advance techniques is a different skill.

The tjhing I'm talking about(which you ffail to understand) is that this is for the purpose of keeping online, fun and not full of people gumming up the works. We compair the advance tech. to snaking but many have said "It's not the same. Snaking is easier to do". That's not the point. The point was that Snaking has make MKDS online overally completative, and thus, not fun. I feel (and siome others here) that advance techs. would ruin the game for everyone else. Sapping a lot of the fuin as now you have to learn a whole new technique outside of the normal realm of the game just to compete. And don;t say that that alone doesn't win a match. At tournments it doesn't win you a match becuase the opponent does it too. Against someone else who don't know WTH L-cancelling is, it pretty much garrentees you a win.

 

[Rikka]

When you go online, you're trying to win. There will probably be hectic, bomb-omb only matches where winning obviously isn't the overall goal. Yet if you one-on-one someone, there's
denying that winning is the goal. From what I've observed, many don't even have fun with the game, and only the winning part.

Another group wants there game at the highest level. Both groups will use advance techs. Learn them. That's what happens when you play a good competitive game.

There are people, me and many others, who have fun in an intense game where the more skilled wins. Maybe these casuals you're talking about will be like us. Maybe they won't. Play with less serious people, that's fine. As long as you have fun.

 

[Salaad]

I really, really, don't think you understood a thing a siad.

This is talking about online. For the sake of online. But, also the type of skill in advance techniques is a different skill.

The tjhing I'm talking about(which you ffail to understand) is that this is for the purpose of keeping online, fun and not full of people gumming up the works. We compair the advance tech. to snaking but many have said "It's not the same. Snaking is easier to do". That's not the point. The point was that Snaking has make MKDS online overally completative, and thus, not fun. I feel (and siome others here) that advance techs. would ruin the game for everyone else. Sapping a lot of the fuin as now you have to learn a whole new technique outside of the normal realm of the game just to compete. And don;t say that that alone doesn't win a match. At tournments it doesn't win you a match becuase the opponent does it too. Against someone else who don't know WTH L-cancelling is, it pretty much garrentees you a win.

I play tourny and my friend doesn't know WTF advanced techs are. I can WD, SHFFL etc. and he can still whoop my arse, how can you explain this?

 

[petre]

to everyone that thinks advanced techs will ruin online for people...its a nintendo game. theyre going to have friend codes. you can come here and find people that dont use advanced techs, and play with them. if advanced techs online really do make the online too much for casual players, theres bound to be a board on this site just for people that dont use them.

also, with the items...people are saying luck is ok, when youre placing money on the line? would you rather have the amount of cash on you determined by your skill, or the chance that a good item will spawn next to you before your opponent? if you want to gamble for money, and dont want to have to get good skills to win some, you can go play the lottery. and if you dont want to put money on the line, then...dont go to tournaments.

and eaode, youre my new hero.

 

[Rikka]

I play tourny and my friend doesn't know WTF advanced techs are. I can WD, SHFFL etc. and he can still whoop my arse, how can you explain this?

No offense, but it sounds like you can use them but you can't apply them.

Not that that is absolutely the case, of course.

 

[Bassoonist]

I hate friend codes... >_>

However we have to worry more about whether the game is truly online or not.

 

[psicicle]

Well, all I can say is that even without advanced techniques, there will still be people better than you. Hopefully the online system will have some sort of room system so that casuals and competitive players can be seperated.

And you know, smash is a competitive game. There are lots of people who have fun with competitive games. There are lots of people who have fun learning the advanced techs. Taking the advanced techs out would just ruin the game for these people. It saps the fun out when they know that there is a plateau to how good they will get, that any guy who's been playing for a few weeks even has a chance against him.

I know that I had fun learning the advances techs. My personal smash experience went like this:

Played on and off for 5 years, matches were boring as hell and me and friends played without items on either corneria or FD.

Found smashboards

smash bros is fun again.



"Against someone else who don't know WTH L-cancelling is, it pretty much garrentees you a win."

ever seen alphazealot play one-handed matches against people? Pretty much no shoulder button usage. Therefore, no WD, no L-cancel, hell, no shield or rolls.

 

[Salaad]

No offense, but it sounds like you can use them but you can't apply them.

Not that that is absolutely the case, of course.

I can apply them to my game, it's just that his game is all about Dash attacks. I havnt played him in a month so we'll have to see...

 

[petre]

I can apply them to my game, it's just that his game is all about Dash attacks. I havnt played him in a month so we'll have to see...

unless he's samus, i dont see that as being a problem...can you say shieldgrabbing? if he plays that simple, theres no reason for you to get overly technical.

EDIT: or do what i do, pick jiggs and CC>rest!!!!

 

[Salaad]

unless he's samus, i dont see that as being a problem...can you say shieldgrabbing? if he plays that simple, theres no reason for you to get overly technical.

You're right..I have been CCing him like crazy too...Shieldgrabbing...Can't believe I forgot about that...

 

[teh_nuke]

Items are a good way to balance the game so that a bottom tier has as good of a chance as a top tier. This does not work competitively because a competitive match is based on skill and items balance the game by adding a luck factor.

 

[KratosAurion192]

Ok I have GOT to ask... What is snaking? I'm a MK tard and have no idea...

 

[Rhyme]

Snaking...

Pick a character with low drift, get to a straightaway (MB, DH and the like), and powerslide left-right alternately. Slide one direction, charge the power boost, release, then imediately hop and start charging a power boost the opposite direction. Works best on straight roads, there are more advanced ways to use it when you become proficient. The idea is to do it fast enough that you drift back and forth while maintaining the speed from the power boost, which is faster than driving straight (yet not as fast as, say, a mushroom), and continue along a relatively straight path.