Read this topic if you're dumb. Yes you, the one that thinks 35 characters is too few

[Firestorm88]

Disclaimer: I am assuming Reno and MarkMan to be correct in this post.

Hi there! Acceptance is the first step to recovering from whatever illness you have. Glad to see you've considered. Now read the following to continue your recovery.

Super Smash Bros. for the N64 had 12 characters.

Super Smash Bros. Melee had 26 playable movesets.
That is an increase of 14 characters. 6 of them saw decreased development time due to the animations being re-used from other characters.

In Super Smash Bros. Brawl, there is a high chance we will get 39 playable movesets (35 characters).
That is an increase of 13. However, we expect roughly 4 of the old characters (Doc, Pichu, Roy, Mewtwo) to be removed so that means 17 new movesets. This is more than in Melee.

Now, we look at the following issue which most of you are missing: The larger the roster, the more time spent balancing the game. Yes. That's right. Balance. Every character you add, adds more time spent balancing than the character before it. There is an exponential increase in time spent balancing for every character added. I'm running out of ways to say this.

I'm sorry, but you can take your Marvel VS Capcom 2 with a bajillion characters, and you'll get that - an unbalanced game. I don't mean anything against MvC2, but character balance is not its strong suit.

Also remember, that only 2 or 3 characters in the current roster look like they might share animations (Young Link and Wolf oh jebus please don't hurt me for saying that it's just a possibility).

Now, the other things.

The Wii is new hardware. Melee ran on the GCN in 2001. Brawl is easily one of the top 3 best looking Wii games. There's been a ton of effort spent updating the visual side of the game up to 2008 standards.

The game physics has changed. More balancing required. Hi guys, this requires time too.

Subspace Emissary, Stage Builder.

And of course, the big thing: WiFi - although I'd say that's for a different team and doesn't really require the ones working on characters.

So before you go and scream about "35 CHARACTERS IS TOO LITTLE WHAT HAVE THEY BEEN DOING ALL THIS TIME" remember that it takes a lot more time to balance characters 27 to 39 than characters 13 - 26.

Then again, half of you are just babies who can't get over the fact that Ridley/Geno/Mega Man/Smiley Face probably isn't in the game.

Oh, and yes I believe 35 is the final roster number. I do believe Reno and MarkMan as legit. Considering they've been right about every fighting game leak they've done over the past couple of years, I don't see them being wrong all of a sudden because a bunch of forum people can't believe Nester isn't in the game. Hey, there's a chance they played an early build that's been changed if you really want to hold out hope At least one of those two lives in Japan btw, so it would have been the Japanese version which comes out in less than 2 weeks.

Wow. The stuff I can rant about while procrastinating!

 

[RedMage8BT]

I think 38 is a good sweet spot. 35 just seems like an odd number (pun not intended)

 

[Oblivion129]

I don't think 35 is really that little, but the character choices were lame. R.O.B.?!?!?!

 

[Papapaint]

You don't fully understand game development, do you?

"Hey Earl, stop working on characters. We need you over here to do wi-fi."

"... but I draw sprites."

"Ah. In that case, go help with the physics engine."

 

[Tree Gelbman]

There wrong. Too much outer prove appears to make them wrong. Animal Crossing Icon means a rep more than likely. (Don't use the DS thing either) Krystal voice actress leak. There is a first for everything and this is the first time they've been wrong.

 

[pcamtz]

That was... rude...

Whats wrong with wanting a good sized roster? They had 7 freaking years to balance it for god's sake!!

35 is just an ilogical number! It leaves room for just 2-3 unannounced newcomers, that's not right.

Nintendo has been blabbering about Brawl having a "huge" roster, well, excuse me but 35 does NOT seem huge to me, so either the roster is NOT 35 or Nintendo lies through their teeth, if that's the case then F*** THEM

And I'm not dumb, 35 IS too few. I doubt 35 is the roster because I've learned to not trust this f***ing "leakers", and I refuse to believe it until I see some real proof.

 

[RedMage8BT]

Of course Nintendo doesn't lie.

Brawl came out on December 3, because we're all playing it right now.

Oh, I'm sorry, I meant that it comes out on February 10, silly me.

:-\

 

[mentosman8]

Yeah, I think they are wrong as well, even if it is for a first time... In part because of Sakurai's comments on how many characters there will be, but in larger part due to logic... Melee was a rushed game, and they added 12 new characters to that roster. Brawl, on the other hand, has had a lot of time(what is it, 2+ years at this point?), and has been delayed to allow them to finish development as well as they can, and you/they're saying we are only getting(assuming no Doc, Roy, or Pichu, and Mewtwo still in the game contrary to popular thoughts) 13 new characters? That's 1 more character increase than 64-Melee, and the game had a LOT more time, and should therefore have a bigger increase in characters.

 

[PopeOfChiliTown]

A lot of condescension and unbridled arrogance from someone who is ironically speculating just the same as those he's calling idiots.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

First...

OP, people have this thing called opinion...

and I think yours is horrible.

Second, I don't care about the number of characters...I care about the ****ty characters they picked

 

[Firestorm88]

I think 38 is a good sweet spot. 35 just seems like an odd number (pun not intended)

Well, on the plus side we got 39 movesets :D I predicted 36 back in 2006 so I'm very happy.

I don't think 35 is really that little, but the character choices were lame. R.O.B.?!?!?!

Meh, I agree that Nintendo should give up on ROB. Nobody cared back during the NES days, nobody cares now.

You don't fully understand game development, do you?

"Hey Earl, stop working on characters. We need you over here to do wi-fi."

"... but I draw sprites."

"Ah. In that case, go help with the physics engine."

That's why I said WiFi likely didn't have too much of an issue with characters.

There wrong. Too much outer prove appears to make them wrong. Animal Crossing Icon means a rep more than likely. (Don't use the DS thing either) Krystal voice actress leak. There is a first for everything and this is the first time they've been wrong.

I <3 denial

That was... rude...

Whats wrong with wanting a good sized roster? They had 7 freaking years to balance it for god's sake!!

35 is just an ilogical number! It leaves room for just 2-3 unannounced newcomers, that's not right.

Nintendo has been blabbering about Brawl having a "huge" roster, well, excuse me but 35 does NOT seem huge to me, so either the roster is NOT 35 or Nintendo lies through their teeth, if that's the case then F*** THEM

And I'm not dumb, 35 IS too few. I doubt 35 is the roster because I've learned to not trust this f***ing "leakers", and I refuse to believe it until I see some real proof.

Hmmmmmmmm.
Unless you think Sakurai and the rest of the development team has absolutely nothing going on in their lives except Smash, I'd say you're pretty dumb. Development on Super Smash Bros. Brawl started in the Fall of 2005. It was in development for just over 2 years. Not 7.

 

[Oh Gibdo]

I think 35 characters is ok, but those character choices suck. I'm not saying that because my most wanted isn't on it, I'm saying that because they suck. Sakurai knows people want characters like Geno or Ridley (just look at his poll), but instead he puts ROB in? That's just stupid.


Yay 100th post.

 

[The Pope]

I don't like how much of a prick you're acting so I'll take whatever **** you're saying with a grain of salt.

 

[Black/Light]

I agree, 35 aint too few. . .it's just the choices that grid my gears.

 

[Chris of STARS]

The only problem I have with the 35 number, is that the supposed roster lists that are coupled with that number don't include Luigi.

I find it VERY hard to believe that Luigi of all people wouldn't make it into Brawl. That's really, really next to not possible to me.

 

[_Slick_]

There's pretty much already 35 characters some being confirmed and others being semi-confirmed. I doubt it'll be 35.

 

[Chris of STARS]

The only problem I have with the 35 number, is that the supposed roster lists that are coupled with that number don't include Luigi.

I find it VERY hard to believe that Luigi of all people wouldn't make it into Brawl. That's really, really next to not possible to me.

 

[Firestorm88]

First...

OP, people have this thing called opinion...

and I think yours is horrible.

Second, I don't care about the number of characters...I care about the ****ty characters they picked

People can have an opinion, but what people are expressing isn't their opinion. It's just their feelings (anger). The only opinion that I expressed in the first post is that people who are screaming are stupid. The reasons were all fact.

A lot of condescension and unbridled arrogance from someone who is ironically speculating just the same as those he's calling idiots.

Hm? Did you miss the point of the thread? I was calling the ones screaming for Sakurai's head over 35 characters idiots. The speculation doesn't matter in this case. It's only the perception people have that every game should have double the characters of the last game. Apparently, by SSB5 we should have 200 characters.

I don't like how much of a prick you're acting so I'll take whatever **** you're saying with a grain of salt.

cool. postcount++;?

 

[Tree Gelbman]

35 isn't bad. I'd be fine with 35 if it didn't scream fake. Brawl looks like a fan service game from the floor up and possibly Sakurai's last Smash Bros game period. You really think he's going to go out picking such a lackluster character like R.O.B.? No, it's ver y odd and almost uncommon for a game to do such great fan service but stop the fan service at the most important part of the game. The roster. People play these games for the Nintendo stars and characters they expect to see. R.O.B. ain't one of them. Wolf ain't one of them because there's no way in hell he won't be a clone of Fox, especially if Falco is in too. The whole thing sounds wrong. Don't call us stupid for using our common sense. The roster may very well still be 35 characters, but what game developer is stupid enough to hold a poll but completely ignore some of the top leading fan choices to add in a robot peripheral from NES?

 

[Artanisix]

Guilty Gear XX: Accent Core has 24 characters.
Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike has 20 characters.
Soul Calibur III has 25 characters.
Marvel vs. Capcom 2 has 56 characters.
Capcom vs Snk 2 has 48 characters.
Tekken 5 has 23 characters.
Dead or Alive 4 has 22 characters.
Mortal Kombat: Deception has 27 characters.

Anyone who says 35 characters is too little is being a spoiled brat.

 

[Artanisix]

double post.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

35 isn't bad. I'd be fine with 35 if it didn't scream fake. Brawl looks like a fan service game from the floor up and possibly Sakurai's last Smash Bros game period. You really think he's going to go out picking such a lackluster character like R.O.B.? No, it's ver y odd and almost uncommon for a game to do such great fan service but stop the fan service at the most important part of the game. The roster. People play these games for the Nintendo stars and characters they expect to see. R.O.B. ain't one of them. Wolf ain't one of them because there's no way in hell he won't be a clone of Fox, especially if Falco is in too. The whole thing sounds wrong. Don't call us stupid for using our common sense. The roster may very well still be 35 characters, but what game developer is stupid enough to hold a poll but completely ignore some of the top leading fan choices to add in a robot peripheral from NES?

 

[Zealot2120]

Firestorm: I don't think you quite get the idea of balancing characters. If you have 35 characters and you add 1 more, you don't have to balance all 36 characters again. The 35 characters are balanced. You add in the new guy, and you make sure that the new guy is at the same level as the other 35. Balancing involves tweaking each new character, not tweaking all the characters for each newcomer. Balancing is NOT exponential. In fact, the more characters you have, the larger your frame of reference is and the EASIER it is to balance.

 

[Firestorm88]

The only problem I have with the 35 number, is that the supposed roster lists that are coupled with that number don't include Luigi.

I find it VERY hard to believe that Luigi of all people wouldn't make it into Brawl. That's really, really next to not possible to me.

Well, I compiled a roster that gives us 38 movesets. So one character left to be revealed, most likely Luigi.

35 isn't bad. I'd be fine with 35 if it didn't scream fake. Brawl looks like a fan service game from the floor up and possibly Sakurai's last Smash Bros game period. You really think he's going to go out picking such a lackluster character like R.O.B.? No, it's ver y odd and almost uncommon for a game to do such great fan service but stop the fan service at the most important part of the game. The roster. People play these games for the Nintendo stars and characters they expect to see. R.O.B. ain't one of them. Wolf ain't one of them because there's no way in hell he won't be a clone of Fox, especially if Falco is in too. The whole thing sounds wrong. Don't call us stupid for using our common sense. The roster may very well still be 35 characters, but what game developer is stupid enough to hold a poll but completely ignore some of the top leading fan choices to add in a robot peripheral from NES?

Oh, I don't think you get what I'm saying. I'm not trying to argue MarkMan and Reno are telling the truth. I believe they are, and all evidence points that way, but that's not the point of the thread. I'm saying that given there are 35 characters, people complaining about the number are being dumb.

Firestorm: I don't think you quite get the idea of balancing characters. If you have 35 characters and you add 1 more, you don't have to balance all 36 characters again. The 35 characters are balanced. You add in the new guy, and you make sure that the new guy is at the same level as the other 35. Balancing involves tweaking each new character, not tweaking all the characters for each newcomer. Balancing is NOT exponential. In fact, the more characters you have, the larger your frame of reference is and the EASIER it is to balance.

Hm, I'd disagree with that. I'd say that you'd have to keep in mind that some older characters might have to be modified to accomodate the newer characters. However, it's probably more complicated than either of us make it seem.

 

[RedMage8BT]

Melee added 13 characters... Brawl should do the same or more, that's all I think.

 

[Japanese Monk]

Apparently people are missing why people keep saying 35 is too small. Its not really the quantity, but the quality of the newcomers we have now. Everyone Im sure, expected most vets to come back so thats no big deal. The problem lies within the characters shown (which most are pretty boring) and the space left for any interesting additions that really would surprise us like Snake/Sonic.

Out of all the newcomers theres only 5-6 out of the 15 or so that are even interesting or could be categorized as interesting/highly requested characters.

Thats why so many people are upset. Not at the number itself but what the number implies. What does it imply? That there will be no more good characters. Im sure no one would be having such a hard time if better choices were to be picked. Diddy? Wario? PT? Dedede? Lucas? R.O.B? Wolf? Those are all characters im sure some people would rather do without. (maybe not PT)

Why have all those when you could have Takumaru, Geno or another 3rd party, Ridley, Mii (a mii wtf character is way better than a R.O.B. wtf character) some other FE rep, or just the piles and piles of examples. Really, peoples main gripe is the quality and NOT the quantity.

And obviously my random (mind you) characters that I named could differ person to person. But you get the point. You arent going to satify everyone but I think most are disappointed by the newcomers chosen.
That why most are hoping we have a few more newcomers entering brawl.

BTW where the heck is Viewtiful Joe?!?!

 

[Ban Heim]

I don't think 35 is really that little, but the character choices were lame. R.O.B.?!?!?!

Where the **** is this confirmation of ROB? Nobody has been able to ****ing give me anything other than "lulz dis prophet says it."

 

[Artanisix]

Quality is subjective. Get over yourself.

 

[Shuma]

This is not an RTS game, balancing individual fighters is far more easy than balancing what? 40 units per faction? and then balance them so that thei're not weak or stronger and still retain thei're originality from the other series, the balance argument means nothing.

Also, no one is angry at 35 characters, but at who are those characters, and even then it's incredibly stupid that after 2 years of development and after the hype, all we get are 35, didn't nintendo say an "insane amount" of characters would be in the game?

The number is not insane, but it surely is driving people insane. Also, what's more stupid is that the most popular characters are the ones being ignored, ok, not all of them, Ike, Diddy, Dedede, Olimar and Sonic got in but why only them? If the roster is real then ****, what has Sakurai been doing over the past 2 years?

And don't give me, the "there are more things than characters to add to the game" crap, what where the modelers and animators doing in all this time? This Roster is so annoying, still, somethings don't fit, so i expect it to be fake.

 

[Mini Mic]

I agree with what the topic creator says though I think the supposed roster is fake none the less.

 

[Kruton]

Sorry, double posted. These forums are ridiculous tonight.

 

[Japanese Monk]

Quality is subjective. Get over yourself.

And of course everyone is entitled to an opinion.

One side is saying its good enough (probably because most of their wants have been fulfilled) and the other half says its not. Either side cant really objectively say they are correct. This is an opinion based argument.


I think it is you who should get over yourself.

 

[Kruton]

Where the **** is this confirmation of ROB? Nobody has been able to ****ing give me anything other than "lulz dis prophet says it."

That's pretty much it.

I agree that a 35 character roster is fine. I just don't see why Sakurai would deny the polls he set up to add a WTF character like ROB.


"Yeah Ridley would be a great addition, but y'know what? Remember that ROB thing from the 80s? He would be popular..."

Does not make sense to me.

 

[DarkSpidey13]

anyone have a link to the supposed roster leaked by these Reno/MarkMan characters? i've done multiple searches and can't find it.

 

[DarkSpidey13]

anyone have a link to the supposed roster leaked by these Reno/MarkMan characters? i've done multiple searches and can't find it.

 

[Wyvern]

The amount of characters has very little to do with it. The reason people are upset with the proposed 35-character roster (if it's real) is because of the content. More than anything, it can be seen in the Starfox lineup. Fox, Wolf, Falco. None of them have anything from the games that lend them any sort of special moveset potential, and they all share a single body type. Sakurai took Fox and made up a moveset from scratch for him, and it worked out okay. But could he do that two more times, for essentially the same character, with no overlap and none of them being stale? While meanwhile there's Krystal, a more highly-requested character who has a staff (only one in the game who could fight with one) and an entire game of inspiration for a totally unique moveset, who gets completely ignored.

That decision would just be...indefensible from a developer standpoint. It's bad for the fans. It's bad for the game. There's absolutely no good reason for it. It's like if you popped in your Melee disk and saw that the Legend of Zelda lineup consisted of Link, Young Link, Dark Link, and Fierce Diety Link with no sign of Zelda or Ganondorf anywhere. Sure, you could probably make it so their movesets weren't quite identical. But does that make it in any way a good idea? Should the fans have been satisfied with that?

Fox, Falco, and Wolf, all variations on a very narrow theme. Ness and Lucas, again two variations on a similar concept (even if Ness gets new specials). All these redundant additions while a dozen totally unique and very popular characters get nothing. If the roster had 35 characters, but instead of Falco, Wolf, and Ness, it had been Krystal, Ridley, and Geno, I would have been fine with it. Sure, I'd have hoped for more, but I could have looked at it and known that they did the best they could with the time they had. But the roster the leakers have put forward is just one terrible decision after another. The developers KNOW what the fans want. They KNOW what characters make unique and interesting fighters and which ones don't. The only explanation for choosing that roster is if they somehow just didn't care. Sakurai might be crazy, but he's not stupid. He cares about this game more than that. He has to...doesn't he?

 

[kirby_fox]

wow- how much can this site lag...

...anyways, ya know what I'm tired of? People creating threads to tell other people they're stupid because their opinion isn't the same as the OP's...

...Excuse me if I don't like the idea of 35 characters when we know the majority of the roster already. Excuse me if I don't like the idea of there being an Animal Crossing icon and no playable character under it. Excuse me if I hate the idea that there's no Mega/Pac/Bomberman or another third party that could have been in. Excuse me if I don't like the idea of not being surprised by a hidden character (ROB isn't surprising at all, considering he was unlockable in Mario Kart DS). Excuse me if having both Falco AND Wolf with a low number of characters seems horribly dumb to me and excuse me if I'd like to believe Krystal's voice actress was probably met with some Nintendo-fury because Krystal is playable. People believing all this have more merit than someone believing 35 characters because people said it was true.

The proof you have of 35 characters is about as much proof as there being 48, 54, 82...someone says it who is known to leak before and it becomes true? I'm sorry, but I don't think anyone knows the entire truth in this except Sakurai, David Hayter, and anyone else who worked on the game. The number of characters just doesn't make sense either, and the evidence? What evidence? There's nothing but people saying it...and that's not evidence. There's 100 different "leakers" out there. Only thing that can change my mind is seeing screenshots. And if there IS 35 so be it, they were right, good for them. Doesn't mean I won't hate the idea.

This is getting long so I'll make it simple: People aren't angry at the 35. People are angry because 35 isn't too far from what we already know. Melee was a surprise- we had a bunch of characters we hadn't seen or known before. Sure, now we could say "Oh well Sukapon/Takamaru would've been unknown!" and yeah true, but really there are a lot of other ones that even though people support won't expect. I for one would not expect Richard or Sable from For the Frog the Bell Tolls...and I'd love to be surprised by their inclusion...I need to learn to condense my thoughts...

 

[RedMage8BT]

Maybe R.O.B is this game's Game and Watch.

 

[Arteen]

Guilty Gear XX: Accent Core has 24 characters.
Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike has 20 characters.
Soul Calibur III has 25 characters.
Marvel vs. Capcom 2 has 56 characters.
Capcom vs Snk 2 has 48 characters.
Tekken 5 has 23 characters.
Dead or Alive 4 has 22 characters.
Mortal Kombat: Deception has 27 characters.

Anyone who says 35 characters is too little is being a spoiled brat.

Inapt analogy. First, Smash isn't other fighting games. Second, it's our money. Nintendo isn't making this game out of charity. We're paying for it with our own money. As potential customers, if we don't think the product is worth the money, we have every right to complain.

 

[Kittah4]

I echo the sentiment of many when I say its not the quantity of characters that make up the 35, but who they chose to release.

I'm pretty bummed right now because I actually believe this roster leak has a good chance of being true. It would be funny if it weren't, however, and all involved parties got banned from neogaf.

The 35 leak just doesn't make sense. Recent screen with a "usable by" character half obscured with Katrina leads you to think of an AC rep. Krystal voice actress slipup. Many characters posting high on sakurais list that aren't playable. ROB being basically the goomba of the SSE and yet being playable.

However time flows like a river. The sea of Melee disbelief washes over us again. I guess we have to prepare for it being true.