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Official (Read OP) DeDeDe Tour! Community MU Analysis

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:4dedede:Learn How to Clobbah Character-by-Character!:4dedede:

Currently Discussing: :4marth:



Welcome welcome to His Majesty's communal match-up discussion! An organized system where we, as a community, will discuss how the King fares against other characters.
The way this system will work is we will go through the characters in a predetermined order. Each match-up will have five days to be discussed and rated. At the end of this time, all the ratings given by each user will be taken into account to make a final, "official" rating. We'll then move onto the next character!

How will each match-up be rated? The rankings will be ratio-based like so...


50:50 Even.

55:45 Slight disadvantage.


60:40

65:35 Major disadvantage, but still possible.

70:30 Extreme disadvantage. As close to unwinnable as we'll get.



These ranks are pretty all-encompassing, but feel free to give a ratio outside of these for your ranking (Ex. 60:40.) But keep in mind that the final, "official" rating will be rounded to one of these four values for consistency's sake.

For reference, here is the schedule for how we'll go through the characters...

:4marth::4lucina::4mewtwo::4bayonetta2::4corrin::4cloud::rosalina::4sheik::4zss::4zelda::4mario::4pikachu::4littlemac::4samus::4falco::4wiifit::4charizard::4palutena::4bowser::4ganondorf::4jigglypuff::4miibrawl::4miigun::4miisword::4sonic::4diddy::4yoshi::4falcon::4villager::4luigi::4rob::4kirby::4ness::4fox::4megaman::4greninja::4tlink::4lucario::4metaknight::4robinm::4shulk::4wario::4dk::4gaw::4peach::4myfriends::4olimar::4pit::4darkpit::4pacman::4duckhunt::4bowserjr::4drmario::4link:
:4dedede:
Important

  • This thread is not a general match-up discussion thread. Discussion outside of the match-up currently being discussed will be treated as off-topic spam. Keep this in mind. If you would to like ask a question about a match-up which isn't being discussed, please bring it to the General Match-up Discussion Thread.

  • The current schedule is not that set-in-stone. If you would like a change in the schedule, please PM (start a conversation) with me privately or post in this thread. Note, however, that the next three characters after the one being discussed at the time cannot be altered. (Ex. Since we're currently discussing Zero Suit Samus, the order of the next three characters there now, Sonic, Diddy Kong and Yoshi, will not be changed.) So be sure to bring up any potential changes in advance.

Final Ratings and Directory

Want to know the score for a character we previously discussed? Want to read about a match-up we've already discussed? Here you'll find the page number of when we started so you can look back and see for yourself!

:4diddy: 65:35 :4dedede: (Page 1)

:4sheik: 55:45 :4dedede: (Page 1)

:rosalina: 50:50 :4dedede: (Page 2)

:4zss: 70:30 :4dedede: (Page 2)

:4sonic: 65:35 :4dedede: (Page 2)

:4yoshi: 55:45 :4dedede: (Page 3)

:4falcon: 60:40 :4dedede: (Page 3)

:4villager: 60:40 :4dedede: (Page 4)

:4pikachu: 60:40 :4dedede: (Page 4)

:4luigi: 60:40 :4dedede: (Page 5)

:4mario: 60:40 :4dedede: (Page 5)

:4drmario: 50:50 :4dedede: (Page 5)

:4fox: 65:35 :4dedede: (Page 5)

:4megaman: 65:35 :4dedede: (Page 5)

:4lucario: 50:50 :4dedede: (Page 6)

:4shulk: 55:45 :4dedede: (Page 7)

:4rob: 65:35 :4dedede: (Page 8)

:4ness: 60:40 :4dedede: (Page 9)

:4olimar: 60:40 :4dedede: (Page 9)

:4robinm:65:35 :4dedede: (Page 10)

:4greninja: 55:45 :4dedede: (Page 10)

:4duckhunt: 65:35 :4dedede: (Page 10)

:4metaknight: 60:40 :4dedede: (Page 11)

:4peach: N/A :4dedede: (Page 11)

:4pacman: 50:50 :4dedede: (Page 11)

:4pit: 50:50 :4dedede: (Page 12)

:4myfriends: 55:45 :4dedede: (Page 12)

:4wario: 60:40 :4dedede: (Page 13)

:4bowserjr: 55:45 :4dedede:(Page 13)

:4dk: 55:45 :4dedede: (Page 13)

:4kirby: 50:50 :4dedede: (Page 14)

:4gaw: 60:40 :4dedede: (Page 14)

:4link: 55:45 :4dedede: (Page 14)

:4tlink: 60:40 :4dedede: (Page 14)


And, with that, be respectful and enjoy the discussion!
 
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And, with that, we'll start with discussion of the chimp himself, Diddy Kong.
Since it is Diddy Kong, I decided that it be appropriate to extend this discussion to two weeks instead of just one.

I'm debating whether to also make Sheik a two week-long discussion. Feel free to give input on this possibility as well as we discuss Diddy.
 

Soul Train

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That D3 emoji at the bottom of your post is the highlight of my weekend.

60:40, :4diddy:. But definitely winnable. As opposed to Yoshi, which is at least a 70:30, :4yoshi:.

There's just so many threat zones you have to be wary of against Diddy. Crazy mobility, Bananas, Monkey flip mixups, the hoo-hah...not fun. We're floaty, but Diddy is just so dang fast...all of this forces D3 to play very defensive and reactionary, until he gets a Dtilt/Ftilt/grab and sends Diddy offstage. There D3 has all the advantages of disjointed hitboxes + Gordo to destroy Diddy's mid-tier recovery. Baiting monkey-flip-to-stage is a great way to land Bairs.

However, if you manage to get a banana, and can add it to your Gordo edgeguard...:troll:

Would be really interested in a Diddy main talking about the tools they love to abuse against D3s.

I do think Diddy is far more of a problem than Shiek. Gordo destroys needles, it's almost impossible to gimp D3, and he doesn't die easily - so D3 has room for necessary mistakes against the girl ninja. Wheres Shiek is under more pressure to stay perfect - D3 needs 3-4 reads/mistakes and Shiek's gone. IMO, keep Shiek to 1 week.
 

mysteryracer

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As a Diddy main, the matchup is :4diddy:70:30:4dedede:, strongly in Diddy's favor, although King Dedede has a slight chance at winning.

Dedede's weight and size are the biggest problems when versing Diddy, because his launch distance and size are near perfect to perform lengthly D-Throw combos on him. To make things worse, Dedede's weight and knockback distance combination don't allow him to escape Diddy's D-Throw to U-Air kill radius—even if Dedede DI's out of the way, due to his slow aerial speed—, killing Dedede at roughly 120%. Next, Dedede's slow ground speed and slow aerial speed means that Diddy can easily space Dedede to pull out bananas most of the time. Diddy gets a major advantage when he can space to pull out a banana, and there isn't much Dedede can do to close in.

On the flip side, Dedede has his Gordos and solid ledgeguarding which make it possible for Dedede to gain the upper hand, but the conditions in which Dedede actually get such an advantage aren't often. While the Gordos can stop bananas, All Diddy needs to do is either shoot the Gordo with a peanut, or better, throw the banana at the Gordo, and use the time King Dedede is in shield stun to just simply pull out another banana and start all over again. Dedede players really have to get a solid read or have optimal spacing in order to really take advantage of the Gordos in neutral game. Dedede has a super solid ledgeguarding game, however, via shooting his gordos upward, his F-air, and his N-air, which is a bit scary to a Diddy coming back on the ledge. D-Tilt is a super solid option for King Dedede to use against Diddy trying to recover above the ledge with an F-special. However, a good Diddy player knows how to keep Diddy away from the ledge, and Dedede doesn't have much options aside from his F-throw to actually get Diddy off the stage enough of a distance for it to become a threat, due to the relatively upward knockback of Dedede's moves, as opposed to the forward knockback he desperately needs in order to take advantage of his ledgeguarding prowess.

I would like to see if a Dedede main thinks the opposite of what I think though, as my knowledge comes more from playing against Dedede rather than playing as Dedede.
 
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Jdawg26

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In my honest opinion this matchup is 70-30 Diddy's favor. While D3 does have the better offstage game, almost every single stage and situation outside of that will favor Diddy. Honestly I think the matchup would be 60-40, maybe even 55-45 if it wasn't for that darn banana which gives him even more of an advantage on the ground.

As stated above, D3 can't DI out of the Hoo-ha and its various followups until he's well beyond a reasonable kill range - around 170% in my experience, which stacks the ground game heavily in Diddy's favor. Provided Diddy has a banana in his hand and is rolling round the stage, the risk-reward assessment favors Diddy in every single scenario. No spaced aerials will help you avoid a punish, his roll sends him far enough backwards to get out of swallow and the only smash attack that is fast enough for him not to react to out of a roll with shield or another roll is our dsmash, and if that whiffs... well you know the story.

The only thing that we really have going for us is our weight and great ledgeguarding game. Dropping from the ledge -> double jump Uair is great for intercepting monkey flip recoveries since it's D3's most active aerial hitbox, however if Diddy doesn't die from it he can just monkey flip/di back onto stage and reset the situation back to neutral.

Landing against Diddy is also next to impossible, which is unfortunate since his stage presence is so great that a lot of the time you'll end up jumping to try to avoid something. Diddy's uair comes out in 3 frames and is fairly large, and D3 can't airdodge and DI away from it without without getting hit by another uair unless he fast falls since his aerial movement speed is fairly slow. In my opinion your best bet if you're in the air above him is to go for the ledge and just try to avoid any banana mixups he sets up while you're recovering. In my experience, sharking the ledge and uairing/fairing is your best option to get back on safely.

Gordos are next to useless when Diddy is on stage with you as his fair is active for 10 frames and comes out far enough for him to react to without much issue. Also when Diddy presses down b to throw out the banana, if you gordo comes into contact with the falling hitbox AT ALL it will be reflected back at you provided the move is fresh. In short, don't use them unless Diddy is recovering or you have a read on an airdodge/roll.

That's about all I have on the general writeup. It's a very VERY tough matchup provided the Diddy actually knows how to fight King D3. Here's some more general tips that I couldn't figure out how to fit into this wall of text:

-Rolling towards Diddy while he's doing the monkey flip is your safest option to avoid it. D3 to my knowledge can't get a reliable punish if he rolls away and doesn't get hit by the kick/grab.

-Be wary of Diddy's dtilt, you can't punish it unless you powershield, and he can get a free fair off of it if it hits you at mid-high%s.

-You'll probably slip on his banana if it's even remotely near you since D3's character model is so large. Just be ready for that.

-Jabbing the banana while it's on the ground will make it disappear, but if you mispace it your hand will touch the banana and you'll trip. =_=

-At lower %'s you have to use Dthrow -> nair or uair since Dthrow->fair can be punished by a monkey flip even if it hits.

-If you up-B towards the ledge and Diddy does a fair around/slightly beneath ledge level it WILL hit you. Diddy's fair is active for 10 frames and D3's hitbox extends while he reaches out to grab the ledge, so you'll get smacked during the 1 frame vulnerability window. However if you hold down so you don't sweetspot the ledge, your armor will remain in effect and you'll power through the hit provided you started your up-b high enough.

That's about all I have on this matchup, let me know if you disagree with any of it or if I missed anything. Cheers. :)
 
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Flawed

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I can't remember, can we shield in the middle of Diddys Jab combo?

70-30 With the monkey in favor. Possibly at the peak skill level 35-65. We have no where to safely land, besides reseting to the ledge, our down throw combos are PUNISHABLE... which is silly.

Burning all of your jumps throwing out fairs at diddy and slowly moving him offstage like the video on GRSmash's Youtube channel is pointless, a good diddy can make it back.

We win off stage if we are above, or below Diddy. I have had the excellent experience of a monkey flip jump/spike happen when trying to edge guard, so its not even as free as it should be
 

dean.

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@ Jdawg26 Jdawg26 covered most of it. Diddy wins ground-to-ground because he basically punishes any whiff/shielded attack with banana throw or dash grab, can throw out shff fair very safely (it goes over our jab/dtilt and hits us). Monkey Flip is very difficult to deal with because of the range it covers; we can't afford to get predictable with shielding. Taking to the air in neutral is also a bad idea because Diddy's fair challenges our aerials in range and damage while being way faster/safer and uair is a pain to deal with if he gets below you.

Diddy has better kill set-ups with dthrow/uthrow (dash grab in general is very safe), dtilt and banana into smash attack as well as low-committal attacks like shuair whereas we have to get lucky with raw dsmash/bair or try to read his recovery, or wait until jab kills.

Best way to avoid dthrow -> uair at kill percent is to DI behind him but try not to die to bthrow/fair instead. Best way to avoid early percent uair strings is to DI behind him... I think.

30:70 sounds about right.
 

manueluno

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I once beated a good Diddy whose only mistake, aside from understimating me, was trying to gimp me after I took one of his stocks. He ended up being stage spiked while I had some jumps left. And that was the only match I won from around ten (it was also the first one and he got really mad afterwards).
 

SalsaSavant

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I don't have enough matchup experience against Diddy to say anything solid, so I won't be rating. However, I do have things to add. Of course, if I'm completely off base, let me know. I think I have a good feel for it, but I've only been up against a small handful of good Diddy's.

First, let's look at what Dedede CAN do in this matchup.

Dedede's faster moves (tilts) are going to be your bread and butter here. They won't outspeed Diddy, but they can annoy him and build some decent damage. Ftilt in particular is a great way to keep him from getting too close and starting his hoo-ha.

I BELIEVE Dedede's grab is a little better than Diddy's, so at times, in close range, it's grab him before he can grab you. Of course, most good Diddy's will be careful to avoid this scenario, but it's good to keep in mind.

Over the edge, you are at your most powerful. Nairs, Fairs,Gordos, and whatnot are going to give a recovering Diddy's a major headache.

Gordos are a great ledgeguard against him. Snipe him if you can, and Diddy is dead.



And the things D3 CAN'T DO:

Dedede's size and slow air speed are what kill him here. Once he gets grabbed, he's going to be comboed hard, and come out of it with high damage. DI won't save you until you are at pretty high percent.

D3 may be able to hold off Diddy's approach for a while, but he only needs to get through once to devestate you. In theory, a perfect reader may be able to avoid this...but realistically, a good Diddy will always find a way through. It's just a question of how long it will take.

Diddy's speed completely shuts down Gordo's for everything except edgeguarding. Given that Gordo's are at the core of D3....not good.



I think D3 can win this, but it's not going to be easy. You've got to be super defensive and perfectly read Diddy's every move to slowly rack up damage, mainly from Ftilts.
Once you get him offstage, things become more even...maybe even slightly in D3's favor. So that game is the game you want to force.
 

Soul Train

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Most of you have probably already seen this, but the My Smash Corner vid on dealing with projectiles has some great tips for dealing with Bananas. I for one didn't know you could hit grab simultaneously to land on AND pick up bananas! Definitely helps the Diddy matchup some.

https://youtu.be/XGiWeq_t9V0
 
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wildvine47

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Well what a coincidence. It turns out that we over at the Diddy Boards are now discussing the Dedede matchup ourselves. We'd appreciate any info/advice you can dole out to us over there. Thanks in advance!
 

RandomLax

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I don't feel as the match-up is as bad as 70:30 in Diddy's favor
I honestly think its closer to 65:35-60:40.
Sure Diddy has the nanas, quick aerials, and a decent ground game, but D3 has the better ground game concerning his threat range, as long as he doesn't get caught with the nanas (and considering nanas are neutral, nerfed and can be used by either character they can change the matchup in a few ways), and better edge guard options, plus air range. Although Diddy can combo off the throws its nothing too major if you can avoid followups (after the uair/fair?/bair?). This and Diddy's (linear and rather limited) recovery options make for a character that should be forced offstage and aggressively approached in those situations. Other than that, I agree with most of the sentiment saying that the match-up is highly defensive and reactive otherwise.
 

shrooby

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I don't feel as the match-up is as bad as 70:30 in Diddy's favor
I honestly think its closer to 65:35-60:40.
Sure Diddy has the nanas, quick aerials, and a decent ground game, but D3 has the better ground game concerning his threat range, as long as he doesn't get caught with the nanas (and considering nanas are neutral, nerfed and can be used by either character they can change the matchup in a few ways), and better edge guard options, plus air range. Although Diddy can combo off the throws its nothing too major if you can avoid followups (after the uair/fair?/bair?). This and Diddy's (linear and rather limited) recovery options make for a character that should be forced offstage and aggressively approached in those situations. Other than that, I agree with most of the sentiment saying that the match-up is highly defensive and reactive otherwise.
We have the better grounded range, but is still overall inferior. If we whiff just about anything, we get punished 'cause Diddy's so darn quick. His ground game is excellent even without the 'nana.
And by punish I mean a Hoo Ha. Or d-throw > fair, bair, whatever. Dedede's so big that the follow-up is almost always there. And that's quite a bit for every time we whiff or hit a shield.
The first follow-up from d-throw is unavoidable until very high percents. But you can try to avoid up-air strings at low percents by DIing backwards. (As was said previously, but I'll confirm that it is the case.)
 

AlextheTwin

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70:30 for Diddy seems right. He definitely shuts down gordos and can combo DDD for days. Winnable if you don't make mistakes and can zone out properly but it's an uphill climb for sure. Still, what saves this from being a 80:20 matchup is DDD can reliably DI out of the upair at high percents, atleast in my experences I've been able to (correct me if I'm wrong, I've played mostly average Diddys). So Diddy can't reliably kill DDD with his Dthrow to upair because of that. Has to kill with a different move. Also DDD can gimp Diddy and has the advantage offstage. Still though, a smart Diddy is probably going to keep the matchup on the stage and DDD is going to have a tough time getting him off with Diddy's superior movement speed.
 
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Jdawg26

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70:30 for Diddy seems right. He definitely shuts down gordos and can combo DDD for days. Winnable if you don't make mistakes and can zone out properly but it's an uphill climb for sure. Still, what saves this from being a 80:20 matchup is DDD can reliably DI out of the upair at high percents, atleast in my experences I've been able to (correct me if I'm wrong, I've played mostly average Diddys). So Diddy can't reliably kill DDD with his Dthrow to upair because of that. Has to kill with a different move. Also DDD can gimp Diddy and has the advantage offstage. Still though, a smart Diddy is probably going to keep the matchup on the stage and DDD is going to have a tough time getting him off with Diddy's superior movement speed.
Which direction were you holding to DI out of the dthrow uair followup? Whenever I tried up-away or away I couldn't reliably escape the uair until well after 150%, which is typically kill range.
 

atomicblast360

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70:30 for Diddy seems right. He definitely shuts down gordos and can combo DDD for days. Winnable if you don't make mistakes and can zone out properly but it's an uphill climb for sure. Still, what saves this from being a 80:20 matchup is DDD can reliably DI out of the upair at high percents, atleast in my experences I've been able to (correct me if I'm wrong, I've played mostly average Diddys). So Diddy can't reliably kill DDD with his Dthrow to upair because of that. Has to kill with a different move. Also DDD can gimp Diddy and has the advantage offstage. Still though, a smart Diddy is probably going to keep the matchup on the stage and DDD is going to have a tough time getting him off with Diddy's superior movement speed.
What direction are you holding to DI out of his Up air? I have tried in multiple different ways but have had no luck. However I am able to DI sometimes out of his down throw Fair.
 
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The Bread Master

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I'd say 70:30, Diddy's favor. Diddy Kong's mobility both in-air and on the ground can really get to DeDeDe, and his throws can combo DeDeDe greatly due to D3's heaviness. D3 CAN combo Diddy, but it's rare from what I've played. Once Diddy's off stage and trying to recover, D3 really shines. D3 can also do a bit out of his throws, but not too much. Gordos suffer quite a bit with Diddy, with their only use (from what I've played) being edge gaurding, as the popgun and pretty much his entire moveset can deflect them.
 

shrooby

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Which direction were you holding to DI out of the dthrow uair followup? Whenever I tried up-away or away I couldn't reliably escape the uair until well after 150%, which is typically kill range.
Last I remember you can't, in theory, escape it until well above kill percent. Key words being "in theory." That's not to say the Diddy can't mess up the follow-up.
I think the up-air follow-up is always there (until at very high percents, again). Whether they actually successfully hit you is another story.
 
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AlextheTwin

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Which direction were you holding to DI out of the dthrow uair followup? Whenever I tried up-away or away I couldn't reliably escape the uair until well after 150%, which is typically kill range.
Up mostly. Could have been bad play by the Diddy's I've gone against.
 

shrooby

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And, with all that, Diddy's done.

Not unwinnable, but very tough. Seems about right to me.
Our main goal would seem to be play it safe in neutral, where we really don't have an advantage, until we're able to force Diddy off-stage and gimp. Which is where we should focus on netting KOs since it's one of the few situations where we really have an upper hand

:4diddy:70:30 :4dedede:


Also, if you take note of the schedule, I've moved Yoshi up to between Sonic and Falcon. I feel that Yoshi is a character we should get to sooner than I had him originally. And others agreed.


We now move onto Sheik. The other huge force in the current meta. As big a threat to Dedede in particular as Diddy? I don't think so, but let's find out.
Discuss. :4sheik:
 

AlextheTwin

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I'm going to say 65:35 in Shiek's favor. Possibly 60:40. I don't think Shiek is as bad as Diddy since DDD can utilize his gordo game much better, unlike Diddy's peanut gun which shuts it down. Shiek's needles don't even reflect them. She's still lightning fast and can rush and combo DDD like crazy so the matchup is definitely in her favor. Winnable, but DDD will have to make solid reads and capitalize. Shiek still has to approach which plays more to DDD's strength. Also, Shiek will have a tough time making the kill against DDD and will have to work him to a high precent.
 
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manueluno

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I would say 60:40 to Sheik. Gordos are a must, also nair, fair (only when engaging air-to-air) and tilts as combobreakers.

The King needs to be careful with Sheik's up and down b, these are the kill moves, other than that, Sheik will have a hard time killing the King, and as any other character, should not be able to gimp him.

KD3 needs to anticipate and space himself properly, specially in the air, since Sheik's attacks come out super fast.

Like Alex said, reading the opponent well is necessary in this matchup, more so than others. But, that is also the name of KD3s game, baiting and reading... unless facing Bowser.
 

The Bread Master

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60:40 to Sheik. Sheik's laggy moves can be punished hard by D3, but if Sheik starts a combo on D3, she can normally keep that going on him for a while until D3 dies. Gordos are far more useful here than Diddy, as Sheik's main projectile, the Needles, cannot reflect them, as they are too weak. A well placed Gordo can set up good combos on her, but misthrown or misplaced gordos are, no doubt, going straight back to D3. All in all, Sheik's fast speed and relatively powerful moves can take a toll on D3, but many of her laggy moves can give D3 his window... OF PAIN!

Also, I cant wait to get the High Teirs out of the way in this discussion. It will be FAR more interesting to see what everyone has to say about the other characters. Good thread, this is!
 

Jaxas

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I've played this matchup a bit, and it basically comes down to Sheik ****ing all over Dedede until he's at kill percent, and then whoever gets the read first. Probably in Sheik's favor, but oh man does it not feel like it sometimes...

Also, just as a note in customs Penetrating Needles reflect Gordos, which is pretty huge; the entire matchup changes to where Sheik can still get D3 up to ridiculous percents without having to even approach. It doesn't change how much of a problem killing D3 is, though.
 
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Soul Train

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These comments aren't entirely wrong, but I feel with some digging into the matchup things might look different. Maybe it's just hard to objectively analyze this matchup at this early stage in the game's life - there are so many great players repping and developing Sheik everywhere, but very few use D3 at a high level.

So I’ll put in my unpopular two cents. Some of my local friends are fantastic Sheik/Rosa mains (coughtierjunkiescough), and after stupid amount of matches against them, I believe this matchup is:

50:50, even. And I might even put this a bit in :4dedede:'s favor, 55:45 - that if the two players are of equal skill, D3 should win. Why?

Simply put: while having a difficult time capitalizing on her strengths already, Sheik is forced make harder reads and take bigger risks to kill D3. And why? Because who D3 is emphasizes Sheik’s weaknesses in play, more than any other matchup in the game.

Overall, Sheik is pretty much all strengths: she racks up damage while (safely) mixing you up, quickly forces you offstage, then gimps you to hell with only 40% on your stock. Her recovery is good with the walljumping/clinging + teleport UpB, so her only real weaknesses (read: basically negligible) are a lack of disjointed hitboxes (made up for by her speed and safety) and very low knockback (she doesn’t even need knockback to kill).

In theory then, heavier characters should capitalize on that killing power weakness and destroy Sheik. Yet Sheik wrecks the heavies. Why? Ganondorf, Bowser, DK – aside from their speed, they all have:

1. No projectile, thus are forced to fight this stupidly safe ninja demon up close + give up free % to Needles in neutral
2. Two jumps – easy to punish landings, escape attempts from combos, etc, and…
3. Easily predictable + gimp-able recovery.

Seriously, playing Bowser against a good Sheik should be a circle of hell in Dante’s Inferno. But D3 is another story. Let’s start with two of Sheik’s strengths, damage-racking and gimp potential, then move on to a few other points.

Damage-racking: Sheik does this really well (endless Ftilt/Fair chains, Uair cancels, grab resets, etc). But albeit not quite as well, so does D3 (jab cancels, Uair cancels, Gordo combos, etc). But the difference: D3 can get out of just about any Sheik combo with pretty simple DI + floating away. Even at 0%, D3 should never get trapped in more than 1-2 Ftilt/Fair chains. And even if the king DIs poorly and gets knocked offstage….

Gimp potential: here, D3 beats Sheik, both offensively and defensively. With five jumps, Gordos, and an armored recovery, D3 has the breathing room to make mistakes, get hit, hit back, and still recover with ease. No one should be gimping D3, outside of several hard reads. Sheik just doesn’t have the knockback to kill D3 offstage, outside of Bouncing Fish at high %s. Her recovery is decent, but D3 can unique threaten Sheik offstage - outside her UpB recovery range - and still comfortably make it home for dinner.

Gordo: Sheik’s needles are just eaten by Gordo. And as I’ve said before, any character without a solid projectile to hit Gordos back automatically opens up a swath of D3 pressure advantages. Here, we can force Sheik to alter her approach, airdodge timing, and Gordo reflect decisions. Now, Sheik reflecting Gordo with normals is great – a good D3 wants opponents to reflect with their normals – because then they're playing our game and D3 should win that game 9/10 times. This is an advantage, which lets us nicely hamper Sheik’s approach and recovery options throughout – no more free Bouncing Fishes, fastfall Nairs, walljumps, etc.

Kill %s: D3 just. doesn’t. die in this matchup until 160%, often surviving past 180%+. Bouncing Fish and UpB are Sheik’s two main kill moves – and both are predictable, telegraphed, and sometimes punishable. The SECOND you get above 120%, anticipate and dodge/shield these moves. Then chuck out Gordo to 1. Punish by direct hit if possible or 1. Set up an unpleasant pressure situation for Sheik as she recovers. Note that Bouncing Fish is SAFE when started in the air - and they can change its speed, distance, and recovery arc at will. It’s really annoying.

Sheik dies stupidly early at ~90% here, especially when D3 has rage (which you probably will for most of the match, FYI). While I find most of my kills come from her running into my Gordo traps, fastfall Bair, Dsmash, and well-placed Uair all kill her very early.

Spacing and attacking: Sheik is fast and mostly safe, while D3 is slow and full of disjointed hitboxes. Character knowledge is key here, and this is where individual player skill will really be shown. Air-to-air, it’s entirely a toss-up of reading skill – we outrange her, but she can bait/airdodge through our longer aerial endlag.

With Sheik’s speed, D3 WILL lose the majority of exchanges, but we only need to win one of every three or so exchanges to be winning the damage war. D3 can threaten with instant death (Bair) at a range where Sheik can’t hit us - outside of Bouncing Fish. See above. Smartly use pivot Ftilt on the ground as well – it’s not only a great anti-air, but stops many of Sheik’s fastfall Nair/dashgrab mixups.

To summarize: D3’s jumps get him out of combos and safely to ground, his heaviness exacerbates Sheik’s primary weakness, and Gordo hampers much of Sheik’s offense. Her speed and offensively safety still power through, but then it comes down to a risk-reward tradeoff. As D3’s % (and rage) rises, we continue to get deadlier and harder to combo, while Sheik has to continue to play perfectly against a wall of ever-changing disjointed hitboxes.

The hammer/Ftilt forces her to play honest, Gordo forces her to play smart, and D3’s kill power forces her to play scared.

I like.
 

Jaxas

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Honestly I could agree with this in customs off. How much does the matchup change in customs on? The only real changes Sheik gets are penetrating needles (less range, more shield damage, reflects gordos) and a grenade that hits opponents into her, both of which are very helpful, but I don't know what D3 gets out of his in this matchup.
 

meleebrawler

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Honestly I could agree with this in customs off. How much does the matchup change in customs on? The only real changes Sheik gets are penetrating needles (less range, more shield damage, reflects gordos) and a grenade that hits opponents into her, both of which are very helpful, but I don't know what D3 gets out of his in this matchup.
Penetrating needles reflecting gordos is important to note, but with their reduced range it's
not that much different than her using normal attacks.

Maybe a low-angled bouncing gordo could cover bouncing fish angles? Or use armoured jet hammer
in close range gordo pressure to further restrict her options?
 

Jehtt

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Honestly I could agree with this in customs off. How much does the matchup change in customs on? The only real changes Sheik gets are penetrating needles (less range, more shield damage, reflects gordos) and a grenade that hits opponents into her, both of which are very helpful, but I don't know what D3 gets out of his in this matchup.
If you know the gordo reflect is coming, it's possible to send it right back with a nair or d-tilt, yes?
 

Muskrat Catcher

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I think the match is 60:40 in sheik's favor. I still mostly agree with Soul Train's post, and I agree with all of his reasons, but sometimes sheik just gives you no time to think about your advantages or options. A good sheik is skilled in baiting out all kinds of openings, and while they may not KO immediately, it is extremely hard for Dedede to gain momentum in this match. Although, Dedede can certainly bring back the match due to the extended amount of time DDD has to learn the sheik's specific strategies, playstyle, and tendencies. His survivability allows him to observe many different strategies that the sheik has, and he will survive long enough to hopefully exhaust the sheik's arsenal, and it just comes down to a game of reads, well timed dodges, and pressure from the rage effect. Also, reads become much easier once you know your opponent's tendencies, and they probably only know where you tend to DI. Many sheiks that I have played have made an obvious transition from aggressive combos to safe play, trying to land kill moves, then retreating. They fear the rage effect. However, Dedede must always fight an uphill battle in this case, and while he can even gain an advantage in high percents, one small mistake might give sheik enough time to land a kill move, and the advantage is over just like that.

In short, it's an uphill battle for Dedede, but the slope isn't slippery enough to prevent you from being victorious.
 

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I came in ready to rant about how horrible this matchup is, and how much I hate it. I'm constantly bodied in stupid long offstage combos. I was going to say something like 80:20 Sheik

But then I thought about it..as annoying as it is, I actually have a pretty good winrate here. That's because, even though I get bodied a lot in this matchup...Sheik can't kill Dedede. I've gone to 200%+ in this match simply because of how much trouble she has. During that time, I build up decent damage and get the kill eventually. Sure, D3 has trouble killing too, but that at least evens it up a bit.

I'm saying 60:40 in Sheik's favor.. Sheik is super annoying and has an advantage, but isn't at that big of an advantage. You just need to stay patient, focus on recovery, and endure.
 
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Soul Train

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His survivability allows him to observe many different strategies that the sheik has, and he will survive long enough to hopefully exhaust the sheik's arsenal, and it just comes down to a game of reads, well timed dodges, and pressure from the rage effect.
This. Just got back from a tourney tonight, and played maybe 20+ casual matches with a fantastic Shiek main afterwards. Two things learned:

1. Customs don't change much here. We tried a bunch of different setups - especially with Needles, but it all comes down to mindgames anyways, no particular advantage with any particular choice.
2. Shiek's normal Needles DO reflect Gordo - when fresh. Also doesn't change much, but good info to know.

The matches went back and forth; we laughed a lot and had a great time. But of it really just exhibited what everyone's saying up above: Shiek can stay (safely) D3's face all day, but can't kill. D3 has to try harder to land the hit, but has many more chances to do so.

Willing to accept 60:40, though I do still feel 55:45 is more accurate :grin:
 

Jaxas

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By the way, what would you guys consider the MU to be against a Sheik who was willing to get percent lead and then just run the clock? That is a viable option in tournament as well; not a fun one, by any means, but a valid one.
 

Dagon97

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The match up get really bad really fast if sheik can deal with your gordos and grabs it turns from 60:40 to 80:20 to possibly unwinnable at the top level if both of you are playing amazing
 

Jdawg26

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40:60, Sheik's favor. Maybe 45:55. I was going to do another long write up but I just got back from work and I'm quite tired, plus @ Soul Train Soul Train already did a really solid one after the games we played earlier in the week.

Just recover low, remember how to DI and keep your head cool. It may feel like you're getting destroyed at times, but if you look at the damage taken it'll actually be closer than you think.

I can do another long analysis if you guys want it but I feel like almost everything was said already.

EDIT: Also it's worth noting that Sheik's piercing needles only reflect gordos if they're fresh. After they hit something 3 or so times they'll do less than 2% and stop reflecting.
 
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dean.

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The balance patch isn't coming at a good time for this project. Considering most of the characters discussed / coming up next are likely to change in two weeks is it worth putting off discussion until then?

WRT Sheik I don't have a whole lot to say but for a ratio I'd say 40:60 at best for us.
 

shrooby

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The balance patch isn't coming at a good time for this project. Considering most of the characters discussed / coming up next are likely to change in two weeks is it worth putting off discussion until then?

WRT Sheik I don't have a whole lot to say but for a ratio I'd say 40:60 at best for us.
Precisely what I was thinking! Good to know I'm not alone in that thought.
Yeah, the announcement of a balance patch both made me happy and made me feel like I just threw away a bunch of papers in frustration.
We'll finish Sheik, but then we're just gonna stop there. Wait for the patch, have things be discovered and then give it some time to settle.
 

shrooby

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Final rating is 60:40 in Sheik's favor.
But arguably barely in Sheik's favor as we've seen. Dedede perhaps being a threat to one of the most popular characters at the moment? An interesting development, to the say the least.
...unfortunately, this may or amy not matter in a few weeks...

And, as I said above, we'll be continuing this discussion after the patch. If Diddy and/or Sheik end up somehow not being changed, then we'll just continue where we left off. But if we see some noticeable changes which could affect our thoughts on the match-up, then we'll start over. (Diddy wouldn't be made a two week long discussion again. lol)
We'll also reorganize the schedule according to whether certain characters could see a rise or fall in usage due to patch changes. And also add Mewtwo somewhere in there at some point.

For now, this thread will be locked. Take any other match-up discussion to the General Match-Up Discussion Thread.
 
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