Raziek's Robin Research Room & Repository (Moveset, Mechanics & Frame Data!)

[slimjim]

I have no means of accurately obtaining frame data at this time. However , I have a friend who has promised to record Robin's frame data withina few days of the actual launch.

Awesome, so I can help with that in 2 weeks. Cool. I'm a frame data kind of guy.

***IMPORTANT NEW QUESTION*** How does move staling take into account the various forms of Thunder? For example, I hit my opponent with 10 thunders. Therefore, thunder is maximally stale. I now charge up and hit with Thoron. Is Thoron staled because it is technically the same move input-wise, or is it completely fresh because I haven't technically hit with Thoron in over 10 moves? Because if the lesser versions of Thoron stale it, that takes away a HUGE portion of it's knockback, making it far less useful as a kill option. However, if the various iterations DON'T stale each other...we have a character that has some shenanigans haha.

This could force us to completely change our playstyle if we choose to use Thoron as a kill move, because then we wouldn't be able to pressure with thunder, elthunder, and arcthunder for 10 hit-confirms prior. If we find that they DO in fact stale each other, my recommendation would be to forego Thoron as a kill move.

EDIT: I'm going to assume that bronze sword aerials stale themselves as well as their Levin sword equivalents (and vice versa). Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Raziek]

Tested the Thunder business. They do indeed stale each other.

Dunno about the swords. Probably do as well.

 

[slimjim]

Tested the Thunder business. They do indeed stale each other.
Dunno about the swords. Probably do as well.

Interesting, probably broken if that didn't happen, but I figured we should clarify it haha. Now I wonder what the percent and knockback differences would be between a completely staled Thoron and a completely fresh Thoron. Hmm, this makes our character even more complex than I thought. Save Thoron freshness for the kill, causing us to forego normal, el, and arcthunders...or use them freely and risk the Thoron not killing...

I myself will disregard the staling aspect entirely and only use Thoron as a kill move when I know it will kill, regardless of any external factors such as VI, Rage, Move Decay, Staling, or whether or not I held the button to increase damage. Robin is complicated enough, for the sake of simplicity I'll just use my lesser thunders when they're good options.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

mildly interesting but villager can also pocket dropped levin sword and book

 

[Iron Maw]

Considering that Villager can apparently even POCKET FREAKIN' FINAL SMASHES... that only makes sense. hahaha

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Oh you saw that Link FS thing?

That's just intangibility at work, not actual pocketing =P

 

[Delzethin]

Oh you saw that Link FS thing?

That's just intangibility at work, not actual pocketing =P

Yeah, the way Pocket works is so he's essentially spotdodging during the move.

Either way, Villager looks really scary right now, especially for a character who uses projectiles as zoning tools the way Robin does. Good thing Villager has so much trouble getting kills that don't involve gimmicks...

 

[slimjim]

Yeah, the way Pocket works is so he's essentially spotdodging during the move.
Either way, Villager looks really scary right now, especially for a character who uses projectiles as zoning tools the way Robin does. Good thing Villager has so much trouble getting kills that don't involve gimmicks...

That axe scary though...comes out on frame 6 and kills at 110%. D:
I honestly think Robin will destroy Villager. Villager is good, but he has a major case of the "Dead Zone"s. You sit about a battlefield platform-length away and pressure him, he has no good options to counter you. All of his stuff is super close range or super far range. Ideally, you want to be barely out of range of his fair/bair, but close enough to punish any attempt at tree/gyroid. He's got literally no tools to stop you from doing that. Denti figured that out quick when he was playing that Villager in the TourneyLocator sets last night, and Villager couldn't do anything about it. Granted Sheik's needles are like the perfect projectile to pressure Villager with in his dead zone since pocket is useless against them.

EDIT:
-For Robin specifically, the matchup will probably be about pressuring him from the dead zone while overwhelming him with projectiles. Yes he can pocket one to throw back at us, but what's he gonna do when we charge a thoron, use our levin sword up on purpose, throw an arcfire at him, shoot the thoron, then throw the used sword and approach with short-hopped bairs? He's gonna get overwhelmed and eat at least one of those to the face. Rinse and repeat. He tries to pressure us? Good for him, we have range advantage so out-spacing him is butter.

-He misses one of those grabs with terrible ending lag? Nosferatu. Also Levin Sword dair will probably go straight through his balloons to spike him, not to mention we have one elwind shot for each balloon.

-He wants to hard camp behind a tree, gyroid wall and slingshot? Alright, free time to regenerate nosferatu and get a fire tome in hand.

EDIT2: ^^^Wall of text made me realize...Jesus Christ I've been playing competitive smash for WAY too long...

 

[•Col•]

We need to do some testing on this: http://smashboards.com/threads/new-property-combo-breaking-specials.369243/

If one of the nosferarus could be used to break out of combos.. mother of God..

Hopefully Robin has at least one special that can do it. Seems like a really powerfully tool.

 

[MindlessFire]

Just out of curiosity, does the training dummy have "Perfect Vectoring" turned on when you were testing the KO potential of Robin's moveset? I noticed in some online matches that some of Robin's moves were able to kill earlier than what you posted.

 

[Hong]

Just out of curiosity, does the training dummy have "Perfect Vectoring" turned on when you were testing the KO potential of Robin's moveset? I noticed in some online matches that some of Robin's moves were able to kill earlier than what you posted.

Are you taking into account the Rage mechanic?

 

[MindlessFire]

Are you taking into account the Rage mechanic?

Yest that too, but I'm mainly referring this: http://smashboards.com/threads/vectoring-the-replacement-to-directional-influence-in-smash-4.368780/

 

[Hong]

Yest that too, but I'm mainly referring this: http://smashboards.com/threads/vectoring-the-replacement-to-directional-influence-in-smash-4.368780/

I am aware.

I was just wondering if, in your samples of analysis where Robin killed earlier than expected, s/he was at a high enough percentage to receive a boost in launch power. In addition, the training dummy in @ Raziek 's test was Luigi, and on the centre of battlefield. Were they lighter than this middle-weight fighter?

Just curious, to see if we can narrow down some possibilities.

 

[Raziek]

Updated OP with Custom Special names from: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=c2xywrva

 

[Folt]

It was as I thought then. Nosferatu 3 is Goetia. (Or supposed to be at least.)

Also, love how the default Nosferatu is Robin attacking from 1 square, while the first custom is Robin attacking from 2 squares, like how spells actually work in Fire Emblem (the difference being that Robin is locked into 1 range or 2 range, and Long-range Nosferatu healing and doing less damage for balance reasons).

Also, I guess the other customs for weapons that aren't Nosferatu are forged versions.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Goetia is the only tome to get a mention in the custom moves? Boo.

ArcFire 3 reminds me alot of Elfire animation-wise so I guess I'll just call it that instead of its more generic version.

 

[NinjaLink]

I made a video explaining how the tomes and Leven swords work including all of the custom moves. Hope this helps the Robin players.

 

[MindlessFire]

So basically a bunch tournament players who were playing Robin didn't know that they can hold down the B button to further extend Thoron's beam, +8% more damage, and increase KO power? That's like going into a FPS game not realizing your default 3-round burst assault rifle also has a better full auto mode.

 

[NinjaLink]

So basically a bunch tournament players who were playing Robin didn't know that they can hold down the B button to further extend Thoron's beam, +8% more damage, and increase KO power? That's like going into a FPS game not realizing your default 3-round burst assault rifle also has a better full auto mode.

I'm not sure what you're referring to honestly.

 

[Raziek]

I'm not sure what you're referring to honestly.

Thoron: 10% (or 18%). About 3.5-4 seconds for Thoron, only when it hits full charge and he goes back to neutral stance. Shoots a fast-moving horizontal bolt that doesn't seem to dissipate. Kills around 120.

Thoron seems to do additonal damage if you hold down B after casting it. It seems like it adds a little bit of extra recovery animation, but is definitely worth it.

The best I can describe it is that it turns Thoron into a channeled beam, where holding the button after casting it deals additional damage if the extra hits connect.

 

[NinjaLink]

No I'm aware of the mechanic. I wasnt aware of why he said it to begin with.

 

[MindlessFire]

There were multiple instances where I saw people firing Thoron at opponents with around 120% damage which could have instantly KO'ed them had the person held down the B or Special button.

 

[NinjaLink]

There were multiple instances where I saw people firing Thoron at opponents with around 120% damage which could have instantly KO'ed them had the person held down the B or Special button.

Ah. I thought this was aimed at me for some reason. My mistake. Yes people are bad lol

 

[MindlessFire]

Ah. I thought this was aimed at me for some reason. My mistake. Yes people are bad lol

Also, there were a lot people were calling Thoron a Power-Up Letdown attack because they thought that Thoron could only do 10% damage which is roughly the same damage as Elthunder and Arcthunder with less kill power than Arcthunder. Not to mention it takes the longest charge up. A lot players even Japanese gamers didn't know that this mechanic existed.

What people CAN DO is spread awareness that this mechanic exist or just simply keep quiet about this leaving their opponents scratching their heads wondering how the heck can Thoron kill at less than 150%.

 

[Delzethin]

I got a couple questions answered, thanks to here:

Can you overflow your usability (e.g., three Thorons for 24 points)? Yes. As long as you have a tome in hand, you can use any thunder spell regardless of the stress you have put on the tome beforehand. A tome can in theory be used for 27 points before breaking.

Does threshold overflow have any affect on the respawn timer or the threshold for the next tome? No. I've observed no differences between finishing a tome at 20 and finishing a tome at 27.

Good to know you can still charge to Thoron at any time. Seems like it'd be a good thing to do once the tomb starts flashing...unless your opponent thinks you'll do that, leaving them wide open to an Arcthunder and follow-ups...

I still have another couple questions, though:

-Do custom versions of the tomes have different respawn times?

-This one's more a personal question. So if you're fast, you can grab your discarded tome or Levin Sword before they disappear. Apparently they're actually pretty powerful. But...I've never really figured out the best ways to hit your opponent with a thrown item. What do you recommend doing to be able to hit them with it?

 

[Raziek]

A got a couple questions answered, thanks to here:

Good to know you can still charge to Thoron at any time. Seems like it'd be a good thing to do once the tomb starts flashing...unless your opponent thinks you'll do that, leaving them wide open to an Arcthunder and follow-ups...

I still have another couple questions, though:

-Do custom versions of the tomes have different respawn times?

-This one's more a personal question. So if you're fast, you can grab your discarded tome or Levin Sword before they disappear. Apparently they're actually pretty powerful. But...I've never really figured out the best ways to hit your opponent with a thrown item. What do you recommend doing to be able to hit them with it?

1) No, the respawn timers are the same.

2) Airdodge trapping is a good way. If the tome that broke wasn't Arcfire, you can also combo Arcfire1 into it (possibly Arcfire3).

 

[MindlessFire]

So are we still keeping the "Thoron does extra damage and knockback by holding downing the special button" a secret to everybody?

 

[.Shìkì]

So are we still keeping the "Thoron does extra damage and knockback by holding downing the special button" a secret to everybody?

Is that the case with all Thorons or only Thoron+? Because @ Raziek listed it for Thoron+.

 

[Raziek]

I listed it for both. It works with Thoron & Thoron+, but not Speed Thunder.

 

[MindlessFire]

Speaking of which was the extra damage to Thoron part of the 1.02 patch or has it always been there? Feels kind of strange for people just find out about that mechanic 3 weeks later if it had always been there.

 

[Raziek]

Speaking of which was the extra damage to Thoron part of the 1.02 patch or has it always been there? Feels kind of strange for people just find out about that mechanic 3 weeks later if it had always been there.

Always been there. I figured it our within a short time of unlocking Thoron2.

Nope.

I got Thoron 2 though. It consumes about double the usage and takes longer to charge, but kills at 90. AND DOES 31 DAMAGE.

You can, yeah. It doesn't force you to use the Levin sword again if you just do a tilt-aerial.

Also, to add to this, it turns out I was slightly wrong on this! Once the Levin Sword is 'equipped', subsequent aerials will be Levin Sword aerials until you do a move that draws the Bronze sword or wait 3-4 seconds for Robin to 're-draw' the Bronze Sword in its place.

 

[NinjaLink]

Always been there. I figured it our within a short time of unlocking Thoron2.


Also, to add to this, it turns out I was slightly wrong on this! Once the Levin Sword is 'equipped', subsequent aerials will be Levin Sword aerials until you do a move that draws the Bronze sword or wait 3-4 seconds for Robin to 're-draw' the Bronze Sword in its place.

Yea I mentioned this in the video I uploaded. Come console time, you gotta be careful csticking aerials otherwise you'll be using a tilt stick.

 

[Delzethin]

Once the Levin Sword is 'equipped', subsequent aerials will be Levin Sword aerials until you do a move that draws the Bronze sword or wait 3-4 seconds for Robin to 're-draw' the Bronze Sword in its place.

That could...possibly be a pain at low percents, but if we're not trying to combo it shouldn't be too huge of a problem. Good thing the Levin Sword regenerates so fast.

 

[Soft Serve]

If Nair turns out to be a good juggle/continuation move then I don't think it would be too much of a problem, as using nair forces the bronze sword and then would allow you to both conserve LS charges if you feel you need to, and use bronze sword aerials sooner if you need them.

 

[sunfallSeraph]

Wait... So once the Levin Sword comes out, either from an aerial smash or ground smash, it will always be used for the relevant aerials (not nair obviously)? Meaning even if you use a tilt aerial, the Bronze Sword won't come back out, so you must either nair, jab, or ground tilt to re-equip it? Am I understanding that correctly? I had thought that aerial tilts would always swap back to Bronze.

 

[Raziek]

That is the correct understanding, yes.

 

[Kevandre]

I'm a little disappointed with Robin's dash attack. I think I've been spoiled with Link's glorious new one in the demo.

I really want to like to play as Robin but I'm a little concerned. Ah well, it won't be long (yeah, yeah, yeah), it won't be long (Yeah! Yeah! Yeah!) it won't be long (Yeeeeeeeeeah) til Robin belongs to meeeeee

I've said it before, I've said it a thousand times, though. In the end, the character itself often doesn't matter, it's the moveset. I never expected to love Lucas, but I did. I got very lucky with Ivysaur, in that Ivy was my most hyped-for character and I loved the way it played. I'm hoping Robin & Bowser Jr are the same cat where I love them both lots.

 

[Mr. Johan]

https://vine.co/v/O72Pn5bhaQH

Thoron is reflectable. Even at the tail end of the move.

Never use it against Mario or Doc.

 

[Raziek]

Well, isn't THAT hilarious lol.

 

[Soft Serve]

DAMNN that hitbox is huge
both Thoron and the Cape. I see the cape box has gotten BIGGER than what it was in melee/brawl
Heres his Melee cape, biggest hitbox in the game:

Spoiler

And if its gotten bigger than that >.>