Raziek's Robin Research Room & Repository (Moveset, Mechanics & Frame Data!)

[False Sense]

Isn't fully charged thoron only 10% while arc thunder (I could be wrong) does a noticeable amount more?

Well, from my experience and according to the OP, a fully charged Thoron can do up to 18%, more than Arcthunder.

 

[Shaya]

I must be insane then, as I'm really only going off of wifi experience. I don't spam thoron, so it shouldn't be in decay most of the time, but a regular fully charged thoron i've seen do only 10% countless times, while maybe I'm getting heavily thrown off by dash attack usually comboing out of it, I feel like the entire sequence of arcthunder does more, but eh.

 

[False Sense]

I must be insane then, as I'm really only going off of wifi experience. I don't spam thoron, so it shouldn't be in decay most of the time, but a regular fully charged thoron i've seen do only 10% countless times, while maybe I'm getting heavily thrown off by dash attack usually comboing out of it, I feel like the entire sequence of arcthunder does more, but eh.

Are you holding down b?

 

[Shaya]

Sounds like I missed something pretty important to the move !_!. Although it doesn't seem to change kill potential of it. Good to know.

 

[Thinkaman]

"Held" Thoron+ against training mode default position Mario does 31% and kills at 84%.

Non-held Thoron+ does 17% and kills at 96%.

Arcthunder+ does 13% and kills at 120-125%. (it's rather inconsistent)

Edit: It's important to keep in mind the non-linear value of a multi-hit 33%-fresh full screen kill move. 33% means it is almost unshieldable.

 

[PK Gaming]

Edit: Nevermind

 

[Raziek]

Held Thoron+ is also hilariously good as a landing trap or tech-roll trap.

If someone has no double jump, or you've just knocked them down, shooting Thoron+ covers a LOOOOT of options. Both rolls, get-up, and waiting on most (I haven't tested exclusively) characters. You can't airdodge through the beam if you use the held version and it's Thoron+. Too meaty.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I was tipped off to this by someone on Reddit and confirmed it in Training mode.

Charge Arcthunder, then use up your double jump. Finish charging to Thoron while still in the air and you get your double jump back.

Kirby can also do this if he copies Robin; in his case, he gets ALL of his jumps back.

Truth be told I'm not sure if this is a widely known thing or not but it certainly surprised me.

 

[Gamegenie222]

I was tipped off to this by someone on Reddit and confirmed it in Training mode.

Charge Arcthunder, then use up your double jump. Finish charging to Thoron while still in the air and you get your double jump back.

Kirby can also do this if he copies Robin; in his case, he gets ALL of his jumps back.

Truth be told I'm not sure if this is a widely known thing or not but it certainly surprised me.

Yo I tested this and man this is a good find. It's alot like C.Falcon and Ganondorf in Melee/PM using down b to regain a jump after they lost a jump from getting hit. If you lose all of your jumps and you have a Arcthunder charged up can you charge up to Thoron and regain a jump?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Yo I tested this and man this is a good find. It's alot like C.Falcon and Ganondorf in Melee/PM using down b to regain a jump after they lost a jump from getting hit. If you lose all of your jumps and you have a Arcthunder charged up can you charge up to Thoron and regain a jump?

That's exactly right. I imagine having Arcthunder first isn't actually required, but I'm not sure if you could do a naked charge all the way to Thoron in time, so a partial charge lets you do it faster.

EDIT: Another trip to training mode and yes, you get your double jump back the moment you charge Thoron in midair, you can do it from any charge level assuming you have enough room to work with. On a related note, it works with all 3 Thunder variants.

 

[Gamegenie222]

That's exactly right. I imagine having Arcthunder first isn't actually required, but I'm not sure if you could do a naked charge all the way to Thoron in time, so a partial charge lets you do it faster.

EDIT: Another trip to training mode and yes, you get your double jump back the moment you charge Thoron in midair, you can do it from any charge level assuming you have enough room to work with. On a related note, it works with all 3 Thunder variants.

Hmm needs more testing then. Tell that guy that you found this on reddit from thanks and thanks to you as well.

 

[PK Gaming]

Held Thoron+ is also hilariously good as a landing trap or tech-roll trap.

If someone has no double jump, or you've just knocked them down, shooting Thoron+ covers a LOOOOT of options. Both rolls, get-up, and waiting on most (I haven't tested exclusively) characters. You can't airdodge through the beam if you use the held version and it's Thoron+. Too meaty.

I love doing this

It's such a dirty strat

 

[Thinkaman]

The double jump restoration was known, and is one of the main perks to Speed Thunder.

 

[Raziek]

I plan to do a major update to this at some point soon, now that I have a lot more experience with the character.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

Well patch 1.0.4 is coming out sometime this month. It will be effecting balancing, we know that for certain. But I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't say what specifically. There's a chance that Robin is one of the fighters getting tweaks.

 

[PK Gaming]

Really hoping for a buff to his standing grab Speed

 

[Nu~]

Or our jump lag frames

 

[Hong]

Honestly?

As far as buffs/nerfs, I don't really feel Robin needs much of anything. I feel Robin, with her minimal MU standard deviation, is a fine example in which the metric of a character should be balanced. Very consistent character IMO. The perceived best characters in the game, like Rosalina, may have an advantage over her, but it's more about Rosalina being good than Robin being bad. Said character is already confirmed to have a nerf in the Wii U version, with the Luma taking roughly 5~ seconds longer to respawn. Mind you, I'm not a proponent of nerfing characters in general, though that's a tangent for a whole different day.

That said, Robin could certainly do with some tuning. Her grab and Nosferatu feel a little imprecise and deceptive. Wouldn't mind some tuning on her grab just to improve the overall feel of the character. Anything related to bugs and exploits, like ZSS's infinite, is an obvious thing that should be addressed.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Well patch 1.0.4 is coming out sometime this month. It will be effecting balancing, we know that for certain. But I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't say what specifically. There's a chance that Robin is one of the fighters getting tweaks.

They said that the last patch contained "balancing" alterations, but no character data was altered at all. I doubt anything will be changed this time around either.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Wasn't that just a mistranslation?

Either way, Sakurai retweeted the news about this patch, something he did not do with the prior 3 patches, so this one seems to have significant weight to it.

 

[Hong]

This one actually specifies there will be character changes.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

They said that the last patch contained "balancing" alterations, but no character data was altered at all. I doubt anything will be changed this time around either.

Replays prior to this patch wont be available. Replays aren't actual video recordings but recreations of matches made by recording inputs by the characters. If game mechanics and character stats were changed they couldn't properly recreate the match. So this is a giveaway that things are definitely changing in this patch.

Also people speculate that the wii U version already has this patch. Somebody spotted in the Wii U version that Rosalina's luma respawn time has increased to 13 seconds from 8 seconds (thank god).

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Ah! Well then, I'm excited to see what they end up changing! I was always hoping they would do balancing changes, but after the last patch being a letdown, I guess I gave up hope. Exciting!

 

[False Sense]

Also people speculate that the wii U version already has this patch. Somebody spotted in the Wii U version that Rosalina's luma respawn time has increased to 13 seconds from 8 seconds (thank god).

You know, if it's true that the Wii U version already has this patch, then I have to wonder...

Guys.

I played the Wii U version today.

Major MAJOR buff to Robin.

(Also, I'm like 70% sure they buffed Robin's aerial acceleration (so you can fast-fall faster, better weave-game), but I'm unsure if it's simply placebo due to having a better control scheme, or not.)

Could it be that they really will buff Robin with this patch, like Raziek observed?

 

[Shaya]

Robin is already really quite good in this game. Nearly all the strengths of precision/spacing characters, but without the mobility, and the most potent (maybe not most versatile) long range game there is.

Like, wanting Robin buffed is crazy when they (IMO) completely eclipse any reason to use Zelda or Samus and the Levin sword makes her comparable to heavies in range/power in a way that makes Ganondorf players quite upset.

Seriously, why would you use slower/projectile characters like when Robin does it alllllllllllllllll better. P.S. they all have ****/slow (worse) grabs than Robin to boot.

Robin is very overloaded for their class/design. Asking for more is insanity unless you just want an over-the-top god tier character.
Their weaknesses are real, and they struggle with the fastest characters, but I don't think any high level player of that character is worried about what's likely 40:60s at worst.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

Robin is already really quite good in this game. Nearly all the strengths of precision/spacing characters, but without the mobility, and the most potent (maybe not most versatile) long range game there is.

Like, wanting Robin buffed is crazy when they (IMO) completely eclipse any reason to use Zelda or Samus and the Levin sword makes her comparable to heavies in range/power in a way that makes Ganondorf players quite upset.

Seriously, why would you use slower/projectile characters like when Robin does it alllllllllllllllll better. P.S. they all have ****/slow (worse) grabs than Robin to boot.

Robin is very overloaded for their class/design. Asking for more is insanity unless you just want an over-the-top god tier character.
Their weaknesses are real, and they struggle with the fastest characters, but I don't think any high level player of that character is worried about what's likely 40:60s at worst.

I don't think this is true. Robin has a lot of room for buffs.

Also Robin's camping game is not as great as people like to believe. His options consist of arcfire, which is a nice spacing tool but it has a short range and a lot of ending lag, and his thunder moves which aren't really all that spamable. Thunder's range is far too short and elthunder takes .75 seconds to charge if the Robin's timing is spot on. Anything above that and enemy character could have easily run across FD by then. In fact, just about any character with a camping game has the ability to force Robin's approach with projectile spam.

 

[Demonstormkill]

Robin is definitely plenty good enough, but to say that her worst matchups are "at worst 40:60" (I assume you mean in the long run) is going too far. Who knows, maybe a setup for ZSS' infinite will be found.

I don't know anything about.
has more mobility than Robin.
I kind of agree with but she does have better tilts.
has teleport and dtilt.

I wonder if Shaya is mindgaming us into elaborating our weaknesses.

 

[Shaya]

A lot of rooms for buffs so they have zero weaknesses, or room for buffs because things aren't 'working' together properly or they're noticeably deficient in some area?

Seriously, those other characters need it more. Robin is clearly better than they are in what they wish their kits were capable of forcing/doing.

If you're not reacting to someone running at you from the other side of the stage, then you're playing wifi or your reaction speed isn't good enough to play video games.
The fact that Robin is forcing people to approach them because of how powerful thunder is (lol at far too shot) and it's practically safe to charge it.

Do you realise that Robin's tools are perfectly usable on reaction? They don't require you spam them at all, why would you ruin your neutral pressure by being lol ARC FIYAAAA mindlessly? If you're choosing your projectiles appropriately then you're capable of frame trapping the entire cast. See: Nairo. Against every opponent. And if you're going to point out single match ups to counter that, you're wasting my time ("but ness can stand there with his magnet, QQ")

 

[Mr. Johan]

Honestly just increase Robin's grab range a smidgen and give Utilt an actual horizontal hitbox, and Robin's set.

Maybe edit Thunder so that it reverts back to the prior charge instead of all the way back to Thunder if he's hit, but that's a fool's dream at best

The first thing should be calming down the undisputed best characters. Making Sheik's Bouncing Fish so that it's, well, punishable on block, would be a fantastic start.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

A lot of rooms for buffs so they have zero weaknesses, or room for buffs because things aren't 'working' together properly or they're noticeably deficient in some area?

Room for buffs as in buffing robin does not make him an "over-the-top god tier character". Definitely far from it.

Seriously, those other characters need it more. Robin is clearly better than they are in what they wish their kits were capable of forcing/doing.

Care to name some specifics? Your making bold statements here.

If you're not reacting to someone running at you from the other side of the stage, then you're playing wifi or your reaction speed isn't good enough to play video games.

I think your trying to attack me with this statement...Of course people react to that. I'm explaining that you cannot get past elthunder in charge before they reach you, which forces you to stop charging. I'm not sure you understand what I'm explaining.

The fact that Robin is forcing people to approach them because of how powerful thunder is (lol at far too shot) and it's practically safe to charge it.

Do you realize that thunder is Robin's first stage of his neutral b which is very very short? Characters like Samus can easily force Robin to approach since he can't charge with projectile spam and Robin's projectiles prior to thoron clash with missles.

Do you realise that Robin's tools are perfectly usable on reaction? They don't require you spam them at all, why would you ruin your neutral pressure by being lol ARC FIYAAAA mindlessly? If you're choosing your projectiles appropriately then you're capable of frame trapping the entire cast. See: Nairo. Against every opponent. And if you're going to point out single match ups to counter that, you're wasting my time ("but ness can stand there with his magnet, QQ")

Your argument is if you hit arcfire you can do well. Arcfire is a slow move, to say that its all about the Robins aim and timing and not about the enemy's ability to anticipate and dodge would be completely wrong. Nairo misses with arcfire and loses plenty of matches with Robin. Robins definitely not dominating the meta.

 

[Raziek]

So I tested further and I think I might just be crazy on the move-speed buffs.

The Thunder Triple Jump has been removed in the Wii U version though.

 

[Mr. Johan]

The dream is dead.

Smash 3DS master race.

 

[False Sense]

So I tested further and I think I might just be crazy on the move-speed buffs.

The Thunder Triple Jump has been removed in the Wii U version though.

Well, that's unfortunate, but at least it wasn't a significant part of Robin's overall strategy.

 

[Raziek]

The dream is dead.

Smash 3DS master race.

Acting like that's not a fix coming in the 1.04 patch lol.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Please. Just let me dream for just a bit longer, while I still have time.

 

[Shaya]

Room for buffs as in buffing robin does not make him an "over-the-top god tier character". Definitely far from it.
Care to name some specifics? Your making bold statements here.

Good for forcing an approach, deal good damage, have good kill power, applies pressures to shields. All have slower grabs than Robin too, none have a kill throw nor really the down throw follow up potential option either.

I think your trying to attack me with this statement...Of course people react to that. I'm explaining that you cannot get past elthunder in charge before they reach you, which forces you to stop charging. I'm not sure you understand what I'm explaining.

But everytime you hit someone or at a positional advantage you're free to charge it up as much as you want. Against most of the cast, the positional advantage for Robin is neutral for everyone else.

Do you realize that thunder is Robin's first stage of his neutral b which is very very short? Characters like Samus can easily force Robin to approach since he can't charge with projectile spam and Robin's projectiles prior to thoron clash with missles.

So I need to specifically say each stage of a special rather than talking about it in general? And here we go, the single match up comparison in a game with 50 others. Yes, Samus can force Robin to approach because her long range game has more versatility to it, is it any good though? Are you having issues jabbing or power shielding it? Does she have follow ups to those actions at all other than tacking on damage? What things is she forcing on you when you try to approach? What is she capable of once you get into her range?

Why is a character who's designed to have usage limits seen as a spammer by you? Gaaaaaaaaaah. Why would you spam?

Your argument is if you hit arcfire you can do well. Arcfire is a slow move, to say that its all about the Robins aim and timing and not about the enemy's ability to anticipate and dodge would be completely wrong. Nairo misses with arcfire and loses plenty of matches with Robin. Robins definitely not dominating the meta.

Why must Robin dominate the meta before they're not applicable for buffs? Where did I say that they dominated the meta? I said this character is good, with actual weaknesses, and there are a lot more characters out there who are seen [primarily] as weaker with similar capabilities or tools who would kill for just one of the things Robin has that they do not. I think the obvious one is probably kill power, (disjoints, CQC, etc help too).

No my argument isn't if you hit arcfire you do well (that's quite dumbed down), my argument is they're a potent reactive character.
How does someone approach in this game? Forward roll four times? Perhaps dashing forward (something they can't shield from for about 15 frames)? Perhaps they jump which is keeping them in the air any time between 30 frames to a second. Robin has so many tools with dealing with all of them by most characters and is relatively capable of ensuring they're jumping through hoops to do so, people's actions lead to arc fires. Perhaps you got baited into them (which the opponent still can do), but that's a matter of Robin choosing the wrong action, not "oh my god couldn't do anything about this"!

Small tweaks? Sure, respectable, I can list you a gazillion small tweaks of multiple characters that I feel are fine that would make my life nicer/easier, I'm pretty sure even Rosalina and Sheik players complain about things (if my facebook is any indication; everyone mains those two characters already at tournament level :<).

 

[PK Gaming]

I would take any number of nerfs to buff Robin's grab. Either in range or in speed, because as it stands, it's abysmal. Shame too, since it would tremendously aid in Robin's neutral game if he had a half-decent grab.

A 9 frame, short-ranged grab? That's nearly Brawl Ganon tier. Just awful.

 

[Shaya]

But her dash grab is 8 frames stuff like power shield dash grab or attack are really solid/reliable with great damage and follow up potential, even without power shielding they're pretty solid punishes OoS. These type of things "scale" at higher levels better than just the shield grab punish option.

Many characters can power shield dash grab/dash attack, that's fair to say. I think Robin's throws are pretty worth getting grabs for :O

 

[PK Gaming]

Yeah, Robin's dash grab seems rather decent (though the whiff is ungodly). Is 8 frames on a dash grab above average?

 

[Shaya]

In previous games, dash grabs were 9 frames when standing grabs were 6. I think characters with longer than normal standing grabs always ended up having dash grabs which were the same speed or better.

Zelda's 11 or 12 frame shield grab < her 8 or 9 frame dash grab.

First rule of Fabulous Swordsmanship: Don't Whiff.