Rate their Chances: the DLC Edition. Day: 192: The final day

[YoshiandToad]

Yeah I know already, but it's an example of how you can make less hype things sell well. If it was sold separately it would not have sold as well.
It would highly logical to bundle Young Link with another character so the sales go well for him. I honestly don't get why people say it's a bad option, even the DLC costumes in Smash Bros do it too, why shouldn't characters too?

Time issues mostly I suppose. That said if Young Link came bundled with some newcomers I'll admit I probably would get him.

But mostly it'd be for the newcomers still.

(unless he had a big overhaul)

 

[Sir Gengar de Èctoplasma]

Again, no reason to be a villain again. :Y
Just let it be if he's that confident he'll get in.

So I'm a villain because I mentioned the possiblity that he could be biased towards Young Link.

EDIT:

So it boils to not selling well, third link, alienating his moveset, and 3DS limitations eh, psst I already taken care of those arguments. You should read the rating again, there a load of arguments here that I have taken care of here. unless you got something valuable and new to counterargue that hasn't been said to Young Link before, though it would probably be something way similar to what I heard before like "that character would be counterproductive to sell" in an informative way, which I heard a billion times before and I haven't really changed my viewpoint of..

You didn't let it be when others were sceptical about his chances.

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

Let's calm down here, I know he probably isn't really logical of Nintendo and Smash, but you shouldn't give him a hard time here.

It's up to him if we want to calm down or not. I'm relatively cordial with new users anyways.

But I don't care if you've made 1 post or have posted for three years in respect to this discussion. What you put out is what you put out. And if there aren't users to quaint them in with our thoughthink, then they're only going to go around making the same mistakes. Innocence isn't something to be lauded.

Because he's the only character who currently has no standout-characteristics from his clone.
Roy has his middle of the sword play style.
Pichu has his injuring risky mechanic.
Wolf, you probably know already by now.
There's no real reason to change any of those clones, except Young Link.
Young Link has barely any stand-out differences since Toon Link has taken his quick nimble play style. That's why I think it feels logical that he'd be the only one to get a bit of a moveset revamp, so he can at least differentiate from Toon Link.

Roy is the only safe Melee option left and is unique enough to pass for a semi-clone.

Pichu's injury mechanic gives him an edge? No, last time I checked, damaging yourself even on friggin' normal attacks does not make you desirable in any fighting game. Just play Lucario if you want to do something about dat damage.

Please answer this question: would you buy Young Link as a clone? You bringing up the fact that he could use some amount of a revamp can be equally applied to the other two Melee cuts. Even then, it's a gamble if Sakurai will even be willing to revamp a clone

 

[Drason]

So I'm a villain because I mentioned the possiblity that he could be biased towards Young Link.

Well I openly admit He WAS my 2nd fav in Melee and my 5th fav character in gaming , so..he's not exactly wrong

 

[Zerp]

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

Tres-links:

Chance: 15% While he is a Melee vet, his hatebase is vocal (doesn't make much of a difference though), he also is seemingly replaced by Toon Link. I don't think this is really a marketable character either, how many of you will actually buy another Link, that you can already practice against by picking Toon Link? And yes, he may be unique, but he'd likely not be, Sakurai would much rather remake a clone than have to start from scratch.

Want: 0.1% I don't really want a third Link, and even though he's a vet, I feel Toon Link is his successor and is in all shapes and ways, Young Link. Sorry, I just don't have any reason to want or like him. Someone met a terrible fate, didn't they now?


Nominations: Dark Matter x 5
Predictions: Dark Samus 7%

 

[Skyblade12]

Quite frankly Young Link being a veteran from the Zelda is enough appeal to sell really. You just don't see it.

Can I just point out how ABSURD this argument is?

You are talking to the Smash 4 customers. The people, here on Smashboards, are the people most interested in Smash 4. We are the people who are following the announcements, and we are THE MOST LIKELY people to buy DLC.

Marketing data will show you, for any game, that DLC is not purchased nearly as much by casual fans as it is by hardcore ones. Casual fans buy the game, play it for a period of time, and move on. The more invested the player, the longer they stick with it, and the more they are willing to invest in it going forward.

We are telling you his appeal won't sell. Because WE WON'T BUY IT. If we "just don't see" the appeal, then that means that Young Link DOESN'T HAVE THAT APPEAL, because WE are the customers who would be BUYING him.

 

[BluePikmin11]

but we havent had any bundles for just characters announced. Now you're adding to ANOTHER variable into the mix :/

Yes I know, we hadn't had any as of yet, but it makes sense to do so, especially with Sakurai's variety of choices that range from popular to unpopular. It's not hard to understand. :<

and as for "being a villain"

you're guilty of it as well. this is very snarky. even if you dont intend it, anyone you are calling a villain doesnt intend it either.

I know, just word it differently to make it nice, that's all you have to do guys.
I can't just sit there and let the YL fanbase feel discouraged you know. :/

You're contradicting yourself. You say that Young Link has enough appeal to sell, while also acknowledging that Young Link would need a revamp or a bundle to sell best.

And honestly, all this talk of bundles and revamps... These are just excuses to add Young Link, a way of justifying his inclusion while dancing around the fundamental problems.

Yeah I suppose that's a contradiction, but bundling is a way to make Young Link sell.
If anything that's Nintendo's problem moreso than Sakurai's really, it's not going to affect the character's chances, Nintendo would know to bundle a less-demanded character with a highly demanded one in order for him to sell, it's more of an aftermath after Sakurai decides who he wants added as DLC.

It's not to say it would make him justifiable, but to give people a good deal and also satisfy people who him back to main him again.

So I'm a villain because I mentioned the possiblity that he could be biased towards Young Link.

The way you word does sound like it to be honest. Let's just end that right there

Roy is the only safe Melee option left and is unique enough to pass for a semi-clone.

Pichu's injury mechanic gives him an edge? No, last time I checked, damaging yourself even on friggin' normal attacks does not make you desirable in any fighting game. Just play Lucario if you want to do something about dat damage.

Indeed that's what I said, his injuring mechanic makes him a diverse character from Pikachu, enough to have no real reason to change his moveset, didn't say anything about making him desireable.

Please answer this question: would you buy Young Link as a clone? You bringing up the fact that he could use some amount of a revamp can be equally applied to the other two Melee cuts. Even then, it's a gamble if Sakurai will even be willing to revamp a clone

Yes, if it's a Smash Bros. character, then I'm likely buying it anyway regardless if it's who I want or not.

Can I just point out how ABSURD this argument is?

You are talking to the Smash 4 customers. The people, here on Smashboards, are the people most interested in Smash 4. We are the people who are following the announcements, and we are THE MOST LIKELY people to buy DLC.

Marketing data will show you, for any game, that DLC is not purchased nearly as much by casual fans as it is by hardcore ones. Casual fans buy the game, play it for a period of time, and move on. The more invested the player, the longer they stick with it, and the more they are willing to invest in it going forward.

We are telling you his appeal won't sell. Because WE WON'T BUY IT. If we "just don't see" the appeal, then that means that Young Link DOESN'T HAVE THAT APPEAL, because WE are the customers who would be BUYING him.

I get it already and I'm already aware of he's less demanded.
But isn't the presence of DLC characters enough to get casual and hardcore alike. That's the main appeal to fans really. He isn't targeting just Smashboards, but also wide variety of people, all of them whom have different wants and desires,

 

[Delzethin]

Because he's the only character who currently has no standout-characteristics from his clone.
Roy has his middle of the sword play style.
Pichu has his injuring risky mechanic.
Wolf, you probably know already by now.
There's no real reason to change any of those clones, except Young Link.
Young Link has barely any stand-out differences since Toon Link has taken his quick nimble play style. That's why I think it feels logical that he'd be the only one to get a bit of a moveset revamp, so he can at least differentiate from Toon Link.

Your argument still has the same problem: assuming Young Link's chances of getting in are self-evident. You're taking all of these shaky arguments, and trying to reinforce them by using other parts of your argument that are equally shaky.

As seen here:

Quite frankly Young Link being a veteran from the Zelda is enough appeal to sell really. You just don't see it.

I'm a long time Zelda fan, as well as a fan of the 3DS remakes...and I am not interested in Young Link. Based on the others' reactions, I'm not alone.

It's not a risk as long as it's a Smash Bros. character, it's going to sell well, likely not as well as the others, but still a pretty notable amount.

And again you assume he'd sell solely by virtue of being a DLC character, as if nothing before that matters.

But then you contradicted yourself:

It would highly logical to bundle Young Link with another character so the sales go well for him. I honestly don't get why people say it's a bad option, even the DLC costumes in Smash Bros do it too, why shouldn't characters too?

If you're so convinced he'd sell just by being DLC, why do you think he'd need to be in a bundle? If he'd need to be thrown in with a more interesting or more requested character, doesn't that ruin your previous point?

And that still assumes that they'd implement him regardless of if he was requested or a compelling enough character to implement.

 

[Skyblade12]

I get it already and I'm already aware of he's less demanded.
But isn't the presence of DLC characters enough to get casual and hardcore alike. That's the main appeal to fans really. He isn't targeting just Smashboards, but also wide variety of people, all of them whom have different wants and desires,

"The presence of DLC characters"? No. Do you need proof of this? Look at the Mii skin packs. Do you think that they have been bought by everyone playing the game? Just because they exist and are on the shop?

Nope.

DLC needs a unique draw. Young Link doesn't have that. A casual player will look at him, see him as a Link skin, and move on. A hardcore fan will look at him, see nothing unique move set wise, and move on. If "the presence of DLC characters" was enough to get casual and hardcore fans alike, then they could sell literally ANYTHING as a DLC character, and people would buy it, and that is simply not true.

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

Someone call a cleaner. Because someone's going to need to bag up all these hollow arguments I see going back and forth!

Seriously though, I am so itching just to mass quote a couple people's statements over the past few pages just to point out all the inadequacies I perceive in them. Not even Roy's day got this hot! I'm not Sakurai, but I so want to point out how wrong you've taken his word to your angles (oh, as well as mine!)

Spoiler: Captain Hotcakes's Ratings History (as of 6/3/15)

Character Chance Ratings

1: Ryu - 97.7%
1: Roy - 97.7%
2: Wolf - 97.5%
3: Professor Layton - 90%
4: Rayman - 60%
5: Snake - 55%
6: Inkling - 50%
7: Sceptile - 45%
7: Krystal - 45%
8: Paper Mario: 44.5%
9: Dixie Kong - 43%
10: Wonder Red - 40%
11: Impa - 40.5%
12: Simon Belmont - 35%
13: Cross - 35.7%
14: Elma - 35.3%
15: Ice Climbers - 30%
15: Captain Toad - 30%
16: Toon Zelda - 29.3%
17: Chorus Kids - 27.5%
18: Magolor - 25%
19: Henry Fleming - 25.7%
20: Spyro - 25.3%
21: Anna - 23%
22: Ivysaur - 23.7%
23: Squirtle - 22.5%
24: Quote - 21.5%
25: Phoenix Wright - 20%
25: Shovel Knight - 20%
26: Shantae - 20.5%
27: Tetra - 20.3%
28: 9-Volt - 10%
28: Midna & Wolf Link - 10%
29: Lip - 10.5%
30: Geno - 7%
31: Young Link - 6.3%
32: KOS-MOS - 5%
32: Ray - 5%
32: Pichu - 5%
33: Daisy - 5.7%
34: Ridley - 5.5%
35: Monita - 3%
-: Dark Samus - ?.?%

Character Want Ratings

1: Professor Layton - 100%
1: Shovel Knight - 100%
1: Wolf - 100%
2: Simon Belmont - 90.5%
2: Sceptile - 90.5%
3: Shantae - 87%
4: Wonder Red - 86.5%
5: Snake - 85%
5: Impa - 85%
6: Magolor - 85.5%
7: Anna - 80%
7: Ice Climbers - 80%
8: Chorus Kids - 80.5%
9: Ryu - 60%
9: Paper Mario: 60%
10: Midna & Wolf Link - 60.5%
11: Phoenix Wright - 55%
12: Ridley - 50%
13: Inkling - 30%
14: Henry Fleming - 30.5%
15: Rayman - 25%
15: Cross - 25.7%
16: Elma - 23%
16: Quote - 23%
17: Krystal - 20%
17: Dixie Kong - 20%
18: Toon Zelda - 20%
19: Tetra - 20.5%
20: Squirtle - 10.7%
20: Ivysaur - 10.7%
21: Geno - 10.5%
21: Roy - 10.5%
22: Spyro - 7%
22: Young Link - 5%
23: Lip - 5.7%
24: Captain Toad - 5.5%
25: Ray - 4.5%
26: KOS-MOS - 3%
27: 9-Volt - 3.5%
28: Monita - 1%
28: Pichu - 1%
28: Daisy - 1%
-: Dark Samus - ?.?%

Concept Chance Ratings
1: DLC Characters Receive Custom Moves - 90.5%
2: DLC Alternate Costumes - 85%
3: Any NPC Becomes Playable - 65.7%
4: DLC Music Packs - 50.5%
5: Rhythm Heaven Character - 45%

Concept Want Ratings
1: DLC Characters Receive Custom Moves - 100%
1: DLC Alternate Costumes - 100%
2: DLC Music Packs - 65%
3: Any NPC Becomes Playable - 50.5%
4: Rhythm Heaven Character - 40.3%

Abstains (Inactivity)

King K. Rool
Banjo-Kazooie
Isaac
Bandana Dee
Mach Rider

Abtsains (Indifference)

Ninten
B.B. Bandit Trio

RATINGS

Young Link

Chance - 6.3%: One of the two outdated Melee cuts who dwells in a lot of grey zones for how his moveset would be and how much he'd feel welcomed back.

First, let's address Young Link's most obvious detractor: Toon Link. As we know, Young Link was cut from Brawl and we got Toon Link to fill a niche of sorts that Sakurai dichotomizes between Link's character. For a game that was a direct sequel to Melee, this precedent was still ripe. Whether Sakurai had Young Link planned or not, Toon Link spiritually succeeds him in that he's more visually distinct and serves to nuance Link's physical stats and specials. We've seen that Toon Link shall retain his inherited position now that he's in Smash 4, so Young Link is seen as redundant in every conceivable factor. Oh, and let's not forget the awkwardness that would ensue from having three versions of Link in the roster, especially if they share the same base attacks.

That is, unless his recent promotions will snowball into a full revamp. The 3DS remakes of Ocarina of Time and moreso Majora's Mask have put his incarnation back into the spotlight. Majora's Mask has you with him for the full game, and players new and old will be quick to identify how essential the masks are to the gameplay. Even Young Link's Hyrule Warriors moveset already does this, which makes mask transformations the most obvious and favored route to pursue. I'll touch on this in my Want score.

However, Young Link already has a clone moveset to his name via Melee. Mewtwo and Lucas have been included with their respective Melee and Brawl movesets intact even when there remains myriads of options to remix them. Sakurai has gone on record saying that he doesn't want to fully revamp (semi-)clone characters due to alienating their players, referring to the ever-so lukewarm Ganondorf. In fact, I can't think of one Smash character who has received a full revamp! And no, I'm not counting the semiclones or even the Pits because their former attacks became nuanced forms or their essential attacks were still kept. With this precedent there, we can assert it's highly unlikely for Young Link to brandish his masks in the battle.

Couldn't leave the Chance score hanging without pointing out Ballot support. Young Link pretty much dwells in Pichu's tier when it comes to worldwide demand. Even then, if we are to view the Ballot as a soapbox over a poll, there are just too many more inciting options that'll titillate Sakurai's muse being circulated. Maybe Masked Young Link will be one of them. I can only hope if he's absolutely obligated to show up that this happens.

Want - 5%: Young Link ages like the Lon-Lon Milk he quaffs upon an up flick of the D-Pad. Not poppin' that cork past expiration date.

I believe that cuts are absolutely necessary for every Smash game. Think of Smash rosters as a bushel of perennial flowers. It grows larger every season. Throughout its blooming, there are going to be some buds and flowers that get damaged or wilt. If I want it to grow into more beautiful flowers, I nip off the dead ends so new ones will develop and grow later.

It's this metaphor that feels almost exact to Sakurai's motives for cutting. He doesn't like the backlash fans of cut characters have to endure. Yet he does it anyway to space out the roster a bit starting with the lowest priority characters. If he were to conclude that "everyone's a winner" in Smash Bros., we'd have a chimera of a roster that hasn't molted its vestigial parts. It would get so crowded that only a fraction of the roster gets played by the majority of players.

Judging from previous cut patterns and development history, only (semi-)clones and characters who succumbed to technical difficulties or time/resource constraints are cut. Young Link happens to fall into the former category, along with Pichu. They have antiquated movesets with vocal hatebases to boot. Neither of them are even "necessary" to their franchise unlike many co-star or game-exclusive semi-clones.

I see Roy's chances being thrown around in support for Young Link. Please! His case is drastically different from Young Link's! Roy's been popular within both the Smash and Fire Emblem fanbases years past his Smash appearance. it's enough to make him score Top 5-10 on most Ballot prelims. Alongside that, Roy is the only safe Melee cut remaining. Thanks to Marth's changes and Lucina sticking to it with a mechanic change, Roy's the most varied choice for a Marth semi-clone. His Neutral Special and Up Special especially come to mind. Not to mention the hilt sweetspot carrying over.

Now, if I hate the juvenille Hero of Time so much, then why did I get him a 5%? Because there's a very slim chance he could be revamped to use the masks from Majora's Mask to at least freshen up his specials, making him different from the other two Links. He could use the Zora Mask to throw his flesh boomerangs for a Side Special, the Goron Mask for a charging rolling attack for a Down Special, and the Deku Mask to propel into the air with two daisies for his Up Special, and briefly transform into the Fierce Deity for his Final Smash. Better yet, have him retain the form of his mask for a short period. Imagine him spitting a Deku Nut salvo. Or taking a charged surge through water. Or quaking the ground and tossing boulders. For the lack of more obvious uses for the other masks, why not throw in the Scissor Blade or the Mirror Shield or have him use different tunes of his ocarina as a Neutral Special? There's so much potential to spice up the alt Links and yet none of it gets used!

PREDICTION

Dark Samus

Chance - 14.35%
Want - 23.45%

NOMINATIONS

*Concept: (Shin) Megami Tensei Character (includes Persona & Devil Survivor) x3
*Concept: No DLC Characters After Fighter Ballot x1
*Concept: Smash 5 has 10 Year Wait Cycle x1

 

[A Distant Demon]

Seriously though, I am so itching to just to mass quote a couple people's statements over the past few pages just to point out all the inadequacies I perceive in them.

please do it. @Kalimdori hasn't been around to do anything like that anyway ;_;

in seriousness the chance rating is the most important part anyway so it would make sense to argue those points you see.

BTW pichu at least has support in Japan. Young link doesnt seem to.

 

[4theRECORD]

Man, if I had known @ BluePikmin11 would bring up such a heated argument I would have taken time last night to make my ratings, but since I didn't...
These are the few instances I hate living in the east.

Young Link (Zelda)
Chance:5%
The only thing really sticking out for him is that he's a veteran.

Want: : 0%
Insert laughing Ganondorf gif here.
Young Link is going neither look OR play differently from his other selves, why would I want him?

Damus predictions:8%

nominations:Slime (Dragon Quest) x5

 

[Curious Villager]

BTW pichu at least has support in Japan. Young link doesnt seem to.

Japan seems to like Toon Link more as he was one of their most wanted characters during Brawl and one of the few characters they where most concerned about pre-smash 4 according to Chronobound. So I guess I'm not too surprised....

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

Yes, if it's a Smash Bros. character, then I'm likely buying it anyway regardless if it's who I want or not.

It's great that you're committing to complete the extra content of the game. Yet for some people, such as me, I would love to have it to if subjectivity didn't hinge on the offer. It's this very concern why we're debating DLC chances and wants. Because both concoct to the overall projected sale!

The initial game is one thing. DLC is another. I dunno about you, but I would feel pretty regretful if I hashed out $5.00 for an extra character if I wasn't going to use them often or at least wouldn't abhor seeing them pop up in my game. That's why I really wish the characters would get sold in packs rather than alone. That way you can't avoid your less favorable ones without getting to your favorable ones.

When it comes to Young Link, the fact that you've been throwing up a need for him to be reworked, downplaying his demand, and pushing veteran status indicates that he'll be a tough sell for most.

please do it. @Kalimdori hasn't been around to do anything like that anyway ;_;

in seriousness the chance rating is the most important part anyway so it would make sense to argue those points you see.

BTW pichu at least has support in Japan. Young link doesnt seem to.

Glad you appreciate my fervor! >:3

Sadly though, it seems like things have simmered down and I have better things to do for my evening. Besides, @ Delzethin and @ Burruni in particular have been very spot on debunking for the opposition, so why should I just parakeet for a couple other points?

 

[LIQUID12A]

Hey look, I posted here.

BluePikmin, you're a nice guy and I respect the fact that you're going to defend Young Link with all your might, but even you must realize that you're weakening your position more and more with every argument you put out because several others will come and point out the inconsistencies with it, to which you'll respond with something that ends up screwing you over even farther. Just take that into consideration for when you're about to make a statement in response to something.

And because it's thread etiquette...

YL Chances: 1% (for the benefit of the doubt, otherwise I would have put a solid 0% due to virtually everyone's arguments)

YL Want: 0% (Here's a character I really don't mind not returning)

Dark Samus prediction: 4%

 

[Strider_Bond00J]

I think we've probably reached more debate than Roy when he was rated.o_o At least I don't feel too sad when I see the 0% Wants this time...

 

[BluePikmin11]

Alright I think it's important that you read this, because I feel I'm being misunderstood yet again. :|

Your argument still has the same problem: assuming Young Link's chances of getting in are self-evident. You're taking all of these shaky arguments, and trying to reinforce them by using other parts of your argument that are equally shaky.

Not really, I'm only counter arguing them in the long run, because I don't think those counterarguments you shown work with Young Link when there are other piece of evidences like interviews and his philosophy on deciding characters, and the fact that he no longer has to worry about releasing a full game that really get rid of the main problems he has, not saying he has a better chance or anything. If his chances were obvious, I would outright state it. That's what I was doing the whole time.

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

@ BluePikmin11 Just know that I harbor no ill will towards you, no matter how heated a discussion can get. If anything, if it weren't for how much you championed Young Link, this day wouldn't have been as intellectually stimulating!

Smash Bros. is a fantasy game for just about everyone here. Sometimes one man's dream is another's nightmare. I'd imagine you didn't have some sort of dread or anxiety surging through you when you got attacked by so many people. But if you're willing to back your points up to the end, that's pretty admirable.

So just know it's okay if you happen to feel particularly like ****. It happens to the best of us. I look forward to seeing you around here as always.

 

[colder_than_ice]

Okay there's a lot of really good debating going on and I'm glad you guys have been keeping it civil. But read through page 133 and only 4 posts out of 40 were actual ratings, I'm not sure how to feel about that. Remember guys that if debates start getting out of hand you can always carry it to the official Young Link thread or to a PM conversation.

 

[Curious Villager]

I think we've probably reached more debate than Roy when he was rated.o_o At least I don't feel too sad when I see the 0% Wants this time...

I guess Toon Zelda's rating went surprisingly well compared to those two..... Especially Young Link's.....

No worries though Blue. Your still cool, and I respect you for at least trying to stand up for the characters you support. c:

Although maybe next time most of that could probably brought over to PM's or the Young Link support thread so this thread wouldn't go too off track...... ^^;

 

[BluePikmin11]

Trust me, in the inside, it feels like hell defending Young Link here, especially when I'm the only one defending him. :L

I deal with it for most of the time, but I like doing it anyway because I love Smash Bros. and Sakurai and I believe I've been in Smash Bros. speculation long enough and have read all interviews to know how Sakurai decides his characters, and how he can reconsider some through other means and reasons to feel confident to argue against some of the things said here. I don't feel like wasting the knowledge I have now and just leave speculation, and would rather share it moreso than being shy about it.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Young Link
65% Chance
Young Link has a few things that help him greatly.
1. 3DS remakes and relevancy
Having OoT and MM help Young Link greatly. He is relevant again. Like Pichu, who's relevance is mainly repping one concept and one gen, Young Link is repping one generation of Zelda in particular; the N64 generation. Those games being brought back into the public eye through nostalgia and remakes help Young Link greatly. The DLC for Hyrule Warriors helps a little as well, showing that he is still relevant.
2. Veteran
He is a veteran. That alone helps him immensely. Veterans are far easier to sell, as people just simply like veterans. While some newcomers might beat him in demand, he has the help of Sakurai. Sakurai has such a huge soft spot for veterans, wishing to avoid cuts. We already have and back, and seems almost confirmed due to datamining. We can see a clear trend of veteran love. Granted, and tend to be the bottom of the veteran requests, the fact they were once playable help them out.
3. Semi Clone
Young Link is pretty easy to declone a bit. Have him have a few unique specials based on the Masks (Zora side b, Deku up b, Goron down b), have him keep his fire arrows, give him a unique final smash, and perhaps give him some attacks different from , be it his aerials (nair and bair are already different), his jab (could have rapid jab), or give him a few unique tilts to help out. He would be similar, yes, but still, that does not hurt him too greatly.
100% want
I will rate every vet we rate in this game as 100% on principle. See my ratings.

D Samus
5.55%
That assist trophy hurts her so much...

Nominating Andy x 5

 

[False Sense]

Young Link
65% Chance
Young Link has a few things that help him greatly.
1. 3DS remakes and relevancy
Having OoT and MM help Young Link greatly. He is relevant again. Like Pichu, who's relevance is mainly repping one concept and one gen, Young Link is repping one generation of Zelda in particular; the N64 generation. Those games being brought back into the public eye through nostalgia and remakes help Young Link greatly. The DLC for Hyrule Warriors helps a little as well, showing that he is still relevant.

You know, I'm honestly curious... Is being "relevant" truly so significant?

Looking over what DLC characters are already present, we have Lucas and (presumably) Roy. Neither of them have had a major appearance in a game in many years. Despite that, their legacy lived on through numerous fans across the world, and wouldn't you know, they came back.

Doesn't seem like "relevancy" mattered when it came to them returning (before Young Link, for that matter). So I must ask, is being relevant really such a plus for a character?

 

[FinalStarmen]

Looks like it has gotten out-of-hand.

Chances: 4%
I'm going to take a more enigmatic approach.

At least within my perspective, it depends entirely on whether or not Sakurai brings back Pichu as well, since he seems to be a far more requested veteran to return than Young Link (although not nearly as much as Mewtwo and Roy). It would also complete the Melee roster of playable characters (sans Ice Climbers due ot technical issues). Besides that, if Wolf is to also return, that makes it two Melee (Mewtwo and potentially Roy) and two Brawl (Lucas and Wolf) fighters, which seems fair. And I believe if the developement team would bring back Young Link and Pichu, then there is no reason to not bring back Ivysaur and Squirtle as well, if the developement team is trying to bring back everyone. With the exception of Snake and the Ice Climbers (due to uncontrollable circumstances), this would complete both the Melee and Brawl roster on equal terms of returning characters. Otherwise, only bringing back Young Link and Pichu focuses too strongly on Melee moreso than Brawl, especially since Brawl's cuts were more drastic. It's all crackpot theorization, but that is what the speculative community does best.

However... despite Sakurai trying to please everyone with the upcoming DLC content (which isn't just limited to fighters), I do not believe he will handle such a laborious workload to not only include almost all of the cut fighters, but also several new ones on the way. Given the likelihood of multiple ballot-chosen characters (why else keep it running for several months?) and the stronger likelihood of Ryu, Roy, and perhaps Wolf incoming, that gives us five DLC fighters already (with Mewtwo and Lucas), with perhaps 2-3 as chosen by the ballot process, that's already 7-8 fighters.

The only way I see Young Link being implemented is if Sakurai wants to bring back almost everybody, including Pichu, which would amount to 12+ characters. That is insanity, since already one character is considered a time-consuming ordeal. While Sakurai and the development team has continually and consistently exceeded low expectations set for them, I don't believe they are going to overload themselves with back-breaking burdens. DLC modes and 7-8 fighters may seem like a lot, especially if almost half of the fighters are newcomers, but multiplying this with 12+ fighters is just ridiculously troublesome. Unless Young Link is randomly added with no other supplementary characters, but... again, that just seems random. Why does Melee, a far older game, get one more returning character than Brawl, whom their characters seem far more popular requests?

Honestly, there are just too many DLC characters to either return or debut before Young Link - he seems like, more-or-less, a lesser add-on for padding purposes, alongside Pichu. This doesn't even cover his lack of popularity or the Toon Link replacement arguments thrown around.

I thank those of you who bothered to read these ramblings.

Want: 20%
For nostalgia reasons.

Dark Projection: 7%

Nominations: Lloyd Irving x 5

 

[a smart guy]

Young Link:
Chance: 5% If they don't modernize him, lots of fans won't buy him. If they do modernize him, it will take a lot more work than other more popular characters. Least likely veteran to return by far.
Want: 10% It's another Link. I know that statement gets used to death, but I hate clones of clones. There's no reason to have another Zelda character.

Nominations: Chibi-Robo x5 (I think the announcement has cooled off enough)
Predictions: 13.2% The Assist Trophy is a double-edged sword.

 

[Fire_Voyager]

Let's hope this day ends soon, this debate got longer than needed.
we in our heart really know how this thing is going to end...
and with all the double 0s, it would be a big surprise to se him again...

tomorrow will be a nice day...oh... an assisst T. to an playable character... oh boy what a week to be alive...

 

[A Distant Demon]

Let's hope this day ends soon, this debate got longer than needed.
we in our heart really know how this thing is going to end...
and with all the double 0s, it would be a big surprise to se him again...

tomorrow will be a nice day...oh... an assisst T. to an playable character... oh boy what a week to be alive...

Oh no people support characters

This is a fan speculation game not a debate filled with rhetoric. Just because you dont care doesnt mean others dont. There are fairly few double zeroes for this day anyway.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Oh no people support characters

This is a fan speculation game not a debate filled with rhetoric. Just because you dont care doesnt mean others dont. There are fairly few double zeroes for this day anyway.

It's ok, they will have to used to the fact that there will be more "deconfirmed" characters to talk about. Waluigi, Meowth, Takamaru, Ashley, and any other character will be nominated over time since we are practically halfway through all the good choices with actual ballot support. If Midna's day was anything to go by, I don't see Dark Samus or any other AT's day being different.

 

[A Distant Demon]

It's ok, they will have to used to the fact that there will be more "deconfirmed" characters to talk about. Waluigi, Meowth, Takamaru, Ashley, and any other character will be nominated over time since we are practically halfway through all the good choices with actual ballot support. If Midna's day was anything to go by, I don't see Dark Samus or any other AT's day being different.

Ehh dark samus will have the benefit of "muh reps" and not having to deal with impa or "3 links" (lol) so (s)he/ it will probably do a little better.

And ridley detractors

 

[Fire_Voyager]

I was making fun of this day... I understand that a lot of people want their character in, depite the low real chances, even I want a character that obviusly has little to no chance to be in, but I get the side of the coin that don't want clones, tird party characters, character of dead franchises or D list nintendo characters...and a long list of opinions.
but when you get an unanimous rejection, you have to accept it... fighting back just make you look like a ragin fanboy...

 

[A Distant Demon]

I was making fun of this day... I understand that a lot of people want their character in, depite the low real chances, even I want a character that obviusly has little to no chance to be in, but I get the side of the coin that don't want clones, tird party characters, character of dead franchises or D list nintendo characters...and a long list of opinions.
but when you get an unanimous rejection, you have to accept it... fighting back just make you look like a ragin fanboy...

Just because many people disagree doesnt make you wrong. I mean im pretty sure thats the definition of the ad populum fallacy.

Blue has the right to make his side of the argument and i commend hum for doing so.

Every argument has to have two sides (minimum) and if someone doesnt fight for one side why bother even having this thread if we all blindly agree on one point anyway?

Not to mention how easy "unanimous agreements" can be wrong. . .

 

[Troykv]

Ehh dark samus will have the benefit of "muh reps" and not having to deal with impa or "3 links" (lol) so (s)he/ it will probably do a little better.

And ridley detractors

Dark Samus has better chances than Ridley because she isn't to big... But... Would be possible deactivate certain AT when they are used in the main battle?

 

[Fire_Voyager]

Just because many people disagree doesnt make you wrong. I mean im pretty sure thats the definition of the ad populum fallacy.

Blue has the right to make his side of the argument and i commend hum for doing so.

Every argument has to have two sides (minimum) and if someone doesnt fight for one side why bother even having this thread if we all blindly agree on one point anyway?

Not to mention how easy "unanimous agreements" can be wrong. . .

We all vote, this is for everyone to rate, not to rant...
and the Pittoo, dog and duck, the doctor, and Robin... Sakurai and his team make the choice for them. We just have to accept it, hate it, love it, watever... they don't care... and for this, they don't care either...

so let's take this game of ranting as it is, a game of voting... and letting the numbers talk for us, this game is without mourn.

 

[Double0Groove]

Young Link:

Chances: 25%
I can see them adding him in with a new moveset, but I can't see them adding him in unless he has the same amount of Support as Mewtwo and Lucas got.

Want: 50%
Hey, still a Zelda character so I'd buy him. Heck I'd buy him twice, but I still want to see a mask based moveset.

Prediction:
Dark Samus:
Chance: 13%
Want: 80%

Nominate: Sora x5

 

[Leafeon523]

Thread saltiness: 100%
Everyone is getting their jimmies rustled over this guy. Back in regular speculation for smash 4 this guy was the living joke of veterans. Just goes to show you the wonders of dlc. Anyway, onto the rating!

Chance: 25% (Regular Link) 0% (Mask Link)
Automatic 10% for being a veteran
10% for Majora's mask remake and muh relevancy
5% for @ BluePikmin11 's massive rant. Last time I saw him do one like that it was for Dark Pit, so yeah.
As for Mask link, transformation characters aren't a thing due to 3ds.

Want: 65%
I really like the character, but I don't want another clone. And honestly, I'm fine with another Link.

Predicting Dark Assist Trophy at 4.5%
Nominating 6+ meaning 7 or more dlc characters x5

Bonus picture in response to the "too many links" argument:

 

[Burruni]

Thread saltiness: 100%
Everyone is getting their jimmies rustled over this guy. Back in regular speculation for smash 4 this guy was the living joke of veterans. Just goes to show you the wonders of dlc. Anyway, onto the rating!

Chance: 25% (Regular Link) 0% (Mask Link)
Automatic 10% for being a veteran
10% for Majora's mask remake and muh relevancy
5% for @ BluePikmin11 's massive rant. Last time I saw him do one like that it was for Dark Pit, so yeah.
As for Mask link, transformation characters aren't a thing due to 3ds.

Want: 65%
I really like the character, but I don't want another clone. And honestly, I'm fine with another Link.

Predicting Dark Assist Trophy at 4.5%
Nominating 6+ meaning 7 or more dlc characters x5

Bonus picture in response to the "too many links" argument:View attachment 54746

And indicate how in that picture, there's only Toon Link and not Young Link

Also, you haven't seen Blue discuss Bayonetta.

 

[colder_than_ice]

Young Link
Chance: 10% - This is pretty much only because of veteran status.
Want: 0% - I'm perfectly happy with two Links.

Dark Samus prediction: 4%

Nominations: Aqua x5

DAY OVER
PLEASE WAIT WHILE I CALCULATE THE RESULTS​

 

[Delzethin]

Nominations: Aqua x5

From Fire Emblem: If?

 

[BKupa666]

The past few pages remind me of when people put A Link Between Worlds Link up on a pedestal as a probable choice because he was in a new game. Good times.

Gonna try to start putting in ratings here again. I got lazy after all the Bandit Trio tier characters started coming in, heh.

 

[colder_than_ice]

YOUNG LINK
CHANCE: 17.99%
WANT: 31.13%​

Young Link actually did a lot better than he did in the original RTC. He's still the least wanted veteran but he actually managed to narrowly beat Pichu in chance, something I never expected. It's also worth noting that we got 62 ratings which is the highest we've had in a while (the Bandit Trio only got 38!). Next up we're rating Dark Samus and predicting what score Jibanyan from Yokai Watch will get tomorrow.

From Fire Emblem: If?

Yes.