Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

[ARGHETH]

I wouldn't mind redoing the up special list since even I don't agree with it at this point >~>

I'm going to be taking over this thread soon, and since we're almost done with moves anyways we'll probably do revisions for all the moves.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You presented a poor counter argument as to why Dancing Blade isn't amazing and contributed nothing to the thread in doing so.

That is why I said what I said.

Had nothing to do with you being a 3DS player.

Greninja being able to SS out of an attack only means something in one match. There are 54 other matches that Marcina must consider. When you do that it is plain to see that Dancing Blade is an awesome tool.

 

[FamilyTeam]

I don't really think he was doing that to say DB isn't amazing, he was just saying that Greninja has the potential to escape it with his own Side Special.
If Greninja does not do that, the whole cycle hits it until KO% no doubt. With that, it's another factor to consider.

 

[SJMistery]

You presented a poor counter argument as to why Dancing Blade isn't amazing and contributed nothing to the thread in doing so.

When I said Dancing Blade was bad? I have said about a dozen times it is one of Lucina's best attacks on this thread. I

I don't really think he was doing that to say DB isn't amazing, he was just saying that Greninja has the potential to escape it with his own Side Special.
If Greninja does not do that, the whole cycle hits it until KO% no doubt. With that, it's another factor to consider.

EXACTLY.

What happened is that Greninja got mentioned as a prime target of Dancing Blade for an early KO, and I just wanted to clarify that it only applies if the Greninja does not Shadow Sneak out of it.

Lucina is one of my two main secondaries, the other being Corrin. I know perfectly how awesome Dancing Blade is at racking up damage and intercepting and punishing short-ranged attacks such as aerials and the ever-annoying Spin Dash.

 

[BunbUn129]

Dimensional Cape is Meta Knight's own version of Bouncing Fish and Flip Jump--just worse. Unlike those moves, it leaves MK helpless which restricts its utility as an escape option. It doesn't grant invincibility until frame 12, so he can't cut off combos in the same manner that Sheik can with her frame-3 invincibility. The attack version has a massive ~60 frames of ending lag, and the only way to true combo into the move is with footstools (set-up by up air at very low percents) or by getting the reeling animation using down tilt past 100%. D throw -> air dodge read -> down b is another set-up but it's highly unreliable and can leave MK open to a hard punish.

There are a number of positives, thankfully. Disappearing while invincible opens up a plethora of mix-ups, from evading juggle and edge-guard attempts to punishing laggy moves at high percents for a KO. It can auto-cancel at full-hop height, allowing MK to quickly put out a hitbox after landing, usually an f tilt or d tilt. The slash has deceptively large range to boot. It helps MK overcome his zoning problem by punishing laggy projectiles or predictable zoning patterns.

I'd say A-tier, at worst B-tier.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I'm going to be taking over this thread soon, and since we're almost done with moves anyways we'll probably do revisions for all the moves.

Cool, I was hoping there'd be revisions eventually. What about Zairs though? There aren't that many so not much time should be spent on them, but they could still be worth discussing.

 

[TDK]

If we do Grabs I've got a long rant on Pac-Man's planned out.

 

[ARGHETH]

Since apparently I'm not getting control of this thread anytime soon, here's a down B list, I guess.

Spoiler: down B

Revised from my other one in the other thread.

 

[Samuelwisebaggins]

Why is stone above Bowser Bomb?

 

[Routa]

I think you are underestimating Pit(s)' Reflector.
Pit(s)' reflector is really good landing tool due to how narrow the area where you can damage him is along with mixing up by b-reversing. It may be paggy as a reflector, but its main use is in landing. When it comes to usability it is pretty much as good as the basic reflectors like Fox's and Gunner's.

 

[Nah]

Shouldn't Cloud be in S? Limit Charge is one of the best moves in the game.

Also, not saying it's a great move but I'd think that Nosferatu could move up to C. I'm not sure how it's worse enough than most of C tier to not be with them, and I'd call it better than stuff like Kirby Stone or Falcon Kick.

 

[Deleted member]

Vision in C baffles me.

 

[FamilyTeam]

When I see someone landing a Nosferatu against someone at high percent, it feels like the Robin heals some 30%.
I don't care how hard it is to land Nosferatu or how little uses it has. The simple fact that is a possibility means it's not as bad as people make it out to be.

 

[Flamegeyser]

Yeah Limit should seriously be in S. Finishing Touch be damned Limit is one of the scariest and most valuable things in the whole game.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

When I see someone landing a Nosferatu against someone at high percent, it feels like the Robin heals some 30%.
I don't care how hard it is to land Nosferatu or how little uses it has. The simple fact that is a possibility means it's not as bad as people make it out to be.

That is nooooot good grounds for judging a move at all. Because the possibility that Ganondorf's Utilt lands and breaks a shield exists doesn't magically make it "not as bad as people make it out to be".

I don't see any reason why Nosferatu or Vision should move up at all.

Limit Charge on the other hand? Ya probably S tier. Stupidly safe and manages to put a lot of pressure on the opponent despite not touching them at all.

 

[FamilyTeam]

That is nooooot good grounds for judging a move at all. Because the possibility that Ganondorf's Utilt lands and breaks a shield exists doesn't magically make it "not as bad as people make it out to be".

I don't see any reason why Nosferatu or Vision should move up at all.

Limit Charge on the other hand? Ya probably S tier. Stupidly safe and manages to put a lot of pressure on the opponent despite not touching them at all.

Except this move is not even in the same universe as that other one. Atleast this one has use and is feasible to land with really good rewards.

 

[Funbot28]

Hey guys so sorry about being afk for so long, went away for the holidays to a place with very little internet connection, but now I am back and should finally be able to finish this project off. I will be creating the final update for the Side Special list today, so in the mean time you guys can start discussing Down Special whoich I can see some of you already are doing.

Sorry for the inconvenience!

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Hey guys so sorry about being afk for so long, went away for the holidays to a place with very little internet connection, but now I am back and should finally be able to finish this project off. I will be creating the final update for the Side Special list today, so in the mean time you guys can start discussing Down Special whoich I can see some of you already are doing.

Sorry for the inconvenience!

You've been gone for so long that someone else has already put forward a petition to the mods to take over the thread. Though your reasons are understandable, I have a mom who can't afford wireless.

 

[Funbot28]

You've been gone for so long that someone else has already put forward a petition to the mods to take over the thread. Though your reasons are understandable, I have a mom who can't afford wireless.

Yeh I saw lol, it's understandable I will take that the list made into consideration when making mine. I should have kept u guys updated, but was really busy and I hope we can all work together to finish this once and for all. I mean we are so close to anyways.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Yeh I saw lol, it's understandable I will take that the list made into consideration when making mine. I should have kept u guys updated, but was really busy and I hope we can all work together to finish this once and for all. I mean we are so close to anyways.

np, the holidays are hectic and we can get very busy. We have lives outside of the boards. Stuff happens.

 

[Funbot28]

Ok so here is final update for Side-Special (finally...)

Spoiler: Side-Special

TL:DR:
B -> A
B -> A
C -> B
C -> B
C _> B
C -> B
C -> B
D -> C
B -> C
D -> C
D -> C
C -> D
C -> D
C -> D

Ok so with that over, I would like to discuss Down-Special a bit more and I will post the preliminary list up by tommorow.

Sorry again

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Listen i'm glad you're back and everything but.....*bangs head against wall* we already discussed that zard's flare blitz should stay right where it is due to it's jablock weakness.
We went forwards and back and I filled up nearly a whole page in an argument with swampasaur over how bad it was.
I get it, we are grading these things in a vacuum so no 'oh but this move can get punished by this' arguments when it comes to moves. However we agreed that both Robin's arcfire and charizard's flare blitz should not be moved because of their weaknesses (limited uses in the case of robin's arcfire, and jablock punishes in the case of zard's flare blitz which is a big one since zard's other moves can't be jablocked)

 

[TriTails]

Listen i'm glad you're back and everything but.....*bangs head against wall* we already discussed that zard's flare blitz should stay right where it is due to it's jablock weakness.
We went forwards and back and I filled up nearly a whole page in an argument with swampasaur over how bad it was.
I get it, we are grading these things in a vacuum so no 'oh but this move can get punished by this' arguments when it comes to moves. However we agreed that both Robin's arcfire and charizard's flare blitz should not be moved because of their weaknesses (limited uses in the case of robin's arcfire, and jablock punishes in the case of zard's flare blitz which is a big one since zard's other moves can't be jablocked)

Chill, bud. Just because the list has been finalized doesn't mean small changes can't be applicated.

Also I wonder why Yoshi and Bowser Bombs are considered bottom tier? Both are jab mixups, break shields, and kill well.

I know that if you miss, you're going to be punished pretty hard. But Yoshi's generate stars that can intercept someone's punish and also doesn't allow for a heavy one (You're probably just getting a dash grab or an aerial and that's it. Could be wrong tho.) and Bowser is usually heavy enough to tank through those punishes.

Not to mention, both are dangerous as a roll read, especially Bowser's as it kills early. You can also use them as a landing option to the ledge (Unless they have disjointed stuffs or windboxes they aren't intercepting you) or alternatively, as a raw landing option, as the moves requires high amount of respect since you can't shield through them and getting hit could mean a stock.

Out of jab these moves can be pretty scary. It's the same thing as Luigi's jab IIRC. Sometimes people mess up on the inputs required to get out (Which is mashing jump, but Luigi's jab mixups are still a thing in the highest level of play, so) and put themselves on lag. Yes, both characters have safer and more reliable options, but having an extra, higher risk and reward move are always welcome, especially when they can break shields and kill early,

Those moves may not be good, but I think it deserves better than bottom IMO.

(Also why is Disable at bottom tier when N-air -> Footstool -> Disable exists?)

 

[SteadyDisciple]

Very disappointed to see Header still in C tier, even with a couple posters (including myself) stating they believe it should be in A and having no one disagree with these claims.

 

[Routa]

I think the main reason why the move is rated so low is due to it not being that great outside the Nair -> Footstool -> Disable. If a move requires specific setup to be useful... well... I would not personally consider that kind of move as a good move.

I'm sceptical about the Bowser, Yoshi and Brawler Down-Bs. They all have their pros and cons for example Brawler has Burrowing effect while Yoshi has Starts that protect him. I still think that Brawler has the best out from the 3 and this has to do with burrowing effect.

 

[Nah]

However we agreed that both Robin's arcfire and charizard's flare blitz should not be moved because of their weaknesses (limited uses in the case of robin's arcfire,

Just saying, limited uses isn't really the big weakness of Arcfire, it's the frame data and the fact it's not good/consistent at keeping people inside it till the final hit



....who else do we need to discuss for down-B btw?

 

[Egghead]

Very disappointed to see Header still in C tier, even with a couple posters (including myself) stating they believe it should be in A and having no one disagree with these claims.

If you compare header to the moves above it, header is not as good as it may seem. It probably should be a bit higher, probably B tier, but the A tier moves have utility throughout the entire match while header is more situational and has low reward. When using it to edgeguard, I that's its potential, but anywhere else, it just adds 6-9 damage. It only combos when Wii fit trainer dashes all the way to where they expect the opponent to be after they get hit, expecting the opponent gets hit by a slow jab 1 ball or fair spike lob. Characters such as the swordies in A tier do a lot of damage with their side b's, olimar' side b negates a massive amount of projectiles(Sun salutation is barely useful against olimar ), diddy has its utility in both offense and defence and wario has his set-ups.

 

[Masonomace]

I don't see any reason why Vision should move up at all.

• Fresh Vision is to be respected. Any smash attack countered on the ground is asking to lose the match at mid-percents.
• Fresh Vision is to be respected. The first counter used in a match or when fully regenerated is 35 counter frames.
• Even a Depreciated Vision usage on the second try has 24 counter frames. This puts it in line with the majority of decent counters but still having slightly more than Corrin, Marcina, & Roy.
• Counterattack's base damages are ridiculous. Countering a weak hit dealing less than ~6.17% means that you deal the base 10% with the regular, & 13% with the forward variant. 13% with BKB of 70 & 94 KBG is nuts. However, a move dealing 6.17% or more applies the 1.3x multiplier, so you'd need a move dealing 8% base damage or more to be positive inflicting higher countered damage.
• Vision Sliding is an application that allows Vision to punish a projectile-based character for using their zoning tool(s).
• There are methods of regenerating Shulk's Vision counter frames more quickly, to make it not as bad as we think it is.
• Etc.. (There are things you all don't even know about Vision that makes the move insane. . .)

I don't see any reason why Nosferatu should move up at all.

I would say that a command grab that's frame 15 isn't great, but there's mainly 2-3 decently-good reasons why:

• Out of all the current D-tier moves, Nosferatu is the only move there that would frustrate me and put me on any tilt because it makes me mash out preventing Robin from free healing-and-dealing. I don't have the full knowledge about the move to know what's beneficially great of the ratio depending his Robin's current % meter & the victim's % meter, but regardless I'm going to mash out of the grab to reduce the effectiveness as much as possible.
• The great-case scenario involves Robin having huge stock-longevity due to the large health restoration.
• It always induces the air-release animation from a grab-mechanic perspective. This is automatically good, even if the frame advantage for Robin is 0(?).

The usages, respawn time, & endlag for the whiff grab are all terrible but at least the grabs themselves are intangible & it's at least a tome book projectile that hits fairly hard if anything.

 

[ARGHETH]

I would say that a command grab that's frame 15 isn't great, but there's mainly 2-3 decently-good reasons why:

• Out of all the current D-tier moves, Nosferatu is the only move there that would frustrate me and put me on any tilt because it makes me mash out preventing Robin from free healing-and-dealing. I don't have the full knowledge about the move to know what's beneficially great of the ratio depending his Robin's current % meter & the victim's % meter, but regardless I'm going to mash out of the grab to reduce the effectiveness as much as possible.
• The great-case scenario involves Robin having huge stock-longevity due to the large health restoration.
• It always induces the air-release animation from a grab-mechanic perspective. This is automatically good, even if the frame advantage for Robin is 0(?).

The usages, respawn time, & endlag for the whiff grab are all terrible but at least the grabs themselves are intangible & it's at least a tome book projectile that hits fairly hard if anything.

Honestly, the tome alone might be a good enough reason to move it up.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I'm aware that Shulk's counter has more knockback and potentially a lot more killing power with certain arts active than Ike/Roy/Marth/Lucina's counters. I disagree that its a large enough difference compared to the other counters in that tier.

The reason why Corrin's is a tier higher is because its vertical. 1) That makes it much more consistent. You don't have to worry about what direction your facing in order to make sure the opponent is flying toward the nearest blastzone. Shulk you have to be facing the right direction, with the right art active, on top of the usual hard reads that a counter requires. Corrin has neither of those issues: can be any place on the stage and its killing power is always available no matter what their current game plan is. 2) It allows it to have an equally if not potentially higher explosive potential when used on platforms when compared to Shulk's. Depends on the stage obviously. But its a bonus on top of being much most consistent than Shulk's.

I just don't buy that Shulk's should be higher. It has higher potential to be sure, but you also need to line up a lot more ducks in a row to pull it off. On a type of move that already requires a fair amount of things going your way.

---

With Robin's Down B... why are you putting mashing as a selling point? That's very much a negative: inconsistent damage/healing. We have people who can climb with Luigi's Down B while not using a jump or are used to trying to mash out of IC grabs from Brawl, how much health do you think you're snagging off of those players? Not a whole lot.

Laggy, slow, not as large of range as you would like, respawn time is horrible, mad inconsistent damage. Its not a good move. To get to its one passable aspect (book) you have to safely use up said laggy move multiple times. Depending on how the opponent died, you might not even get a chance to pull it off in one respawn. All to gain access to a single shot with the book. And then you have to do it all over again.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Being able to spend four seconds burning nosferatus to get a tome is a nice utility for players that just don't like the move. But this being a viable tactic speaks volumes of nosferatu's shortcomings on its own. I would also generally rank Bowser Yoshi and Brawler on the same rank, since I don't see any one of them as ideal with these pros and cons

Can kill at about 110% and break shields, but only when used from the ground, and only if they block the first hit and continue to hold shield rather than dodge roll away or take the falling hit. Blocking the rising hit, putting away shield, then putting shield back up is possible and keeps you with enough shield health to avoid the break, though I'd be amazed if somebody did that in a real match, owing to excellent study of the MU. It's the stars that get the break, but if yoshi uses grounded down b and is within the closer half of the rising hit's range, he will land so close that the stars won't hit the victim's shield at all since they spawn too far away, or they shield stab and cause 4% damage instead. All in all, it can break shields, but only with a paragraph's worth of rules and reactions from the opponent after being blocked, otherwise, Yoshi can expect a punish after being blocked just as much as a shieldbreak. Has the lowest landing lag by a considerable amount (39 frames, up there with divekick Dairs that are 30-40), and stars provide some further protection, albeit only from punishes coming in too early or too close, since they disappear before the halfway point of Yoshi's lag. Cannot grab ledges from behind yoshi, though between Up B and his double jump, Yoshi can turn around if he needs to, unlike Brawler who suffers the same problem

No air version nerf like Yoshi's. Kills on it's own vertically at very generous (~85 and up) percents. Di away let's you survive about 8% longer, but the direction of DI "away" depends on how close Bowser was with the rising hit, allowing for a DI mixup. The rising hit has range to match jab which itself surpasses the range of entire movesets of some characters. Works as a mixup after jab confirm. I can confirm connection issues from personal experience, the rising hit can knock Jigglypuff too far away if the rising hit connects at maximum range, and others may break out if randomly DIing away upon rising hit. Bowser's is the only one of the three where the rising hit can strike airborne targets, but it's a minor detail only relevant for hitting somebody that's hanging on a ledge too long. Breaks shields, regardless of grounded hit connecting, so Bowsers like to mixup by landing on battlefield height platforms to surprise people who instinctively shield when they see Bowser "jump" toward them. Bowser successfully breaking a shield results in a kill generally as early as 35% after he's physically pushed them to the edge before charging Fsmash. Also grabs ledges regardless of where Bowser is facing,allowing for Down B as an edgeguard/ledge trump method. It's a great move, it just lacks utility in the context of Bowser's moveset. His uncharged Usmash competes directly for Kill %s and has a perfectly vertical launch angle. And as a frame 11 attack, Bowser has a number of attacks with just as much range and application, most notably a dash grab. Bowser Bomb used to be Bowser's go to damage/kill punish until he got a grab game. Now it's best use is reaching the ledge after being sent high. Using this to fall onstage is just nonsensical unless the opponent is not on the ground and instead airborne. There's a lot of disjoint on the fall, enough to beat Cloud Uair unless he's spaced, but if you connect with nothing, the 55 frames of landing lag are an enormous punish opportunity that you just gave them. Plus Dair has better frame data with the same disjoint

Having a bury instead of a kill or shield break is definitely an interesting trade off. Brawler will get off a lot of damage. 12 or 20 damage from landing the move from the ground, then 1-2 dtilts on a mashing victim for 8% each, or charging Usmash if you want to try (yes, try) for a kill. This move has 58 frames of landing lag, which is not only a lot for scenarios when you miss, but cuts considerably into his time to attack a buried opponent. He also cannot grab ledge behind him, so no Down B to the ledge from onstage, which is a shame since the falling hit will meteor airborne opponents.

Also, I'm surprised at how many people don't like 's counter. If Greninja is within a certain distance of his attacker he will always appear on them, even when countering a projectile. This allows him to counter attack pretty much anything that Shulk can Vision. But since countering a projectile doesn't make them freeze, they have more than double the time to pull up shield, as the counterattack is blockable. You would need to have 40 frames of endlag at the point your projectile is countered to not be safe, and 19 for general melee attacks. The upward counterattack is the only viable one, killing at about 100% vertically regardless of what you counter. This kill potential has Corrin's counter beat until Corrin counters a move dealing ~16% damage. And there's also a possibility for the attack to combo into Uair to kill that way. Plus in scenarios where Greninja is blocked, the upward move takes him so far so fast that he won't be block punished. But yes, we did touch on the move's primary drawback, greninja taking 19 frames for his counter attack to appear, unlike say, Marth's 5. Since counters' most common application is edgeguarding hitbox recoveries, it matters. They can pass through Greninja and grab the ledge during the time it takes him to reappear. Even slow traveling hitbox recoveries don't have to fear greninja unless he really gets out there. I honestly expected people to rate this on the same level as Marth, but since D tier only has Palutena, I think he's best suited for there, even though they don't share the same issues.

The real worst counter is . While it does have the longest counter activation window barring a fresh Vision, its FAF is unforgiving, and Lucario has an even slower counterattack than Greninja that's also blockable, with no upward attack that's safe on block to cover for it. with a ~22 frame startup, moves with that much endlag or less are safe to have countered, and many landing aerials fit this description fine. And hitting hitbox recoveries with the counterattack will seldom work as they reach the ledge in time. The counterattack strength is dependent on Aura, and I can't imagine Lucario wanting to use such a slow move at high aura, reads be damned. Double Team's best application is for avoiding final smashes in casual play.

Edit: Oh, and drop Corrin's down to C. It's kill potential is not very good until you're countering smashes (and we all know how often that happens in competitive play). Plus a vertical launch angle is not optimal for the most common counter scenario - hitbox recoveries. You want to send them back out, not up. Plus it's blockable, though that's only relevant for countering projectiles, since the counterattack is not slow like Greninja and Lucario. I don't really know what it's startup is, as the victim is slowed down - not frozen. But it's definitely good enough to get around the blockable issue.

 

[TDK]

You could have started Shulk's vision at the ice age and I'd use Ftilt on it in 2017 and he'd counter it.

 

[Masonomace]

Nidtendofreak Oops I forgot that 's 1-DownB is a bury effect from succession on-hit. That's probably scary, even though I don't fight Mii Brawler too much. Anywho, an art isn't even needed. There's no need for Smash art to delete someone because Vision forwarded or not is still going to destroy. Smash art is just there to tell everyone that it seals the deal ~15% earlier (depends on situation). The only bad thing about Vision's counterattack is that the launch angle is 50°, whereas most counterattacks are 361° aka 40° hitting grounded. That & air Vision is bad, but there are solutions to make it better.

The only counterattacks that can punish a projectile-based character's tool for using them are arguably Greninja & Lucario for how they operate, yet the opponents can just shield them. However, Vision can use an application of sliding across an entire FD length with just the Forwarded Vision attack in Speed. . . It's the only unblockable counterattack that can punish a zoner for zoning & can be unpunishable in return via several methods is beyond what any other character's counter can possibly do. B-tier is easy to see for Vision.

The real worst counter is . While it does have the longest counter activation window barring a fresh Vision, its FAF is unforgiving, and Lucario has an even slower counterattack than Greninja that's also blockable, with no upward attack that's safe on block to cover for it. with a ~22 frame startup, moves with that much endlag or less are safe to have countered, and many landing aerials fit this description fine. And hitting hitbox recoveries with the counterattack will seldom work as they reach the ledge in time. The counterattack strength is dependent on Aura, and I can't imagine Lucario wanting to use such a slow move at high aura, reads be damned. Double Team's best application is for avoiding final smashes in casual play.

Interesting. The counter itself has two paths to choose whether you want it reversed or not. Reversed away from the direction you originally face means that even if the counterattack fails, you're unpunishable & can just reclaim Advantage from what may seem to be Neutral. Not to mention that low DT reads lead to aerial combo strings that no other counter under regular circumstances can pull off. You have good points though. The stance's FAF is awful, even more-so than Shulk's while the attack itself is only formidable with high Aura. Idk if I agree or disagree with ya, just seems a little off for Lucario to hold that title.

 

[SteadyDisciple]

If you compare header to the moves above it, header is not as good as it may seem. It probably should be a bit higher, probably B tier, but the A tier moves have utility throughout the entire match while header is more situational and has low reward. When using it to edgeguard, I that's its potential, but anywhere else, it just adds 6-9 damage. It only combos when Wii fit trainer dashes all the way to where they expect the opponent to be after they get hit, expecting the opponent gets hit by a slow jab 1 ball or fair spike lob. Characters such as the swordies in A tier do a lot of damage with their side b's, olimar' side b negates a massive amount of projectiles(Sun salutation is barely useful against olimar ), diddy has its utility in both offense and defence and wario has his set-ups.

I can see your point, but I still feel that the move is being underrated, in part because the head hitbox is being left out. You talk about FE damage output, but if both hits connect for header you do minimum 23% damage (or, again, more with DB). While it doesn't start much for combos (though it does start some) it can be comboed into for kills near the ledge or a ton of extra damage. I'll admit that the other A tier moves may be more reliable than Header at their particular strength, but Header is a much more versatile tool than most of them as well.

Still, we've moved on to another topic, so I'll let it drop.

 

[Flamegeyser]

I, too, vouge for Nosferatu being moved to C. A command grab is good as is, despite this one being slow, but the self healing, mixup potential with his aerials, surprising range, combos out of arcfire/arcthunder hitstun, and tome should put it above some of the weaker entries.

 

[JayZee1700]

's Hand Slap is good because:

-It covers a long range (Ground hitbox)
-Deals insane shield pressure
-Is DK's 2nd fastest meteor smash when used in the air (first hit comes out on frame 19, his fastest is D-air on frame 14)

However, it has some downsides:

-Can't hit airborne opponents (Ground hitbox)
-High end lag; easily punished if you miss (Ground hitbox)
-First hit does not consistently combo into second, and spiking hit (Aerial and Meteor hitbox)

I'd say C tier, IMO. It simply has a lot more uses than most of the D-tiers.


's Stone is good because:

-Has super armor
-Comes out pretty fast (When used on ground; comes out frame 11)
-Breaks full shields upon landing, or breaks partly damaged shields upon use on the ground
-Has high horizontal KB when used on ground, making it another good tool to edge guard characters that struggle with recovery (Cloud, Luigi, Mac, etc.)

's Stone is also bad because:

-Vulnerable for nearly half a second (28 frames) before super armor kicks in; easy punish if opponent is there to do so (Aerial)
-High end lag after the transformation; if you miss you can easily punished with something strong, which is bad due to his very lightweight (Ground and Aerial)

Again, I'd put at C-D tier; it has it's situational uses, but still has some drawbacks that keep it from being completely viable.

 

[Egghead]

Luigi cyclone is an excellent gimping tool and the dthrow to cyclone is a good 50/50.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

's Hand Slap is good because:

-It covers a long range (Ground hitbox)
-Deals insane shield pressure
-Is DK's 2nd fastest meteor smash when used in the air (first hit comes out on frame 19, his fastest is D-air on frame 14)

However, it has some downsides:

-Can't hit airborne opponents (Ground hitbox)
-High end lag; easily punished if you miss (Ground hitbox)
-First hit does not consistently combo into second, and spiking hit (Aerial and Meteor hitbox)

I'd say C tier, IMO. It simply has a lot more uses than most of the D-tiers.


's Stone is good because:

-Has super armor
-Comes out pretty fast (When used on ground; comes out frame 11)
-Breaks full shields upon landing, or breaks partly damaged shields upon use on the ground
-Has high horizontal KB when used on ground, making it another good tool to edge guard characters that struggle with recovery (Cloud, Luigi, Mac, etc.)

's Stone is also bad because:

-Vulnerable for nearly a full second (28 frames) before super armor kicks in; easy punish if opponent is there to do so (Aerial)
-High end lag after the transformation; if you miss you can easily punished with something strong, which is bad due to his very lightweight (Ground and Aerial)

Again, I'd put at C-D tier; it has it's situational uses, but still has some drawbacks that keep it from being completely viable.

You forgot mention with Kirby's stone one major weakness is that it can be grabbed or command grabbed mid-move, the super armor stone provides doesn't protect it from grabs so a good command grab would land a major hit.

 

[SteadyDisciple]

You forgot mention with Kirby's stone one major weakness is that it can be grabbed or command grabbed mid-move, the super armor stone provides doesn't protect it from grabs so a good command grab would land a major hit.

Also, stone isn't technically super armor, it's a special armor. So you take no damage on hit, unless the cumulative damage you've taken is enough to overcome the armor, in which case you take half the damage of the last move to hit you. So moves like Ganondorf's U-smash can also hit you out of the move. And let's not forget the horrendous lag on ending the move if you miss...

 

[TheRabidChipmunk]

's Hand Slap is good because:

-It covers a long range (Ground hitbox)
-Deals insane shield pressure
-Is DK's 2nd fastest meteor smash when used in the air (first hit comes out on frame 19, his fastest is D-air on frame 14)

However, it has some downsides:

-Can't hit airborne opponents (Ground hitbox)
-High end lag; easily punished if you miss (Ground hitbox)
-First hit does not consistently combo into second, and spiking hit (Aerial and Meteor hitbox)

I'd say C tier, IMO. It simply has a lot more uses than most of the D-tiers.

The best part about DK's down-b is it's probably the best tech-chase option in the game. I think that alone might be enough to push it to B-tier.