Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

[TDK]

Since Funbot's gone I'm gonna make lists until he comes back, if he does (This time I'll get it right, lists are unordered)

Spoiler: Back Throw

I moved Toon Link up to A since his killed right after Mewtwo's. Mario, Doc, and Luigi were standardised into B. Peach, Robin, Shulk PAC-MAN, and Palutena were moved up to B, and Wii Fit Trainer, Wario, Ganondorf, and little Mac were moved out of B. Little Mac, Ike, and Roy were moved to D.

If you have a problem, point it out. I'm trying, and this is my thoughts. What are yours?

Also, for F Smashes, I'd say S would look something like this:



Not sure who else is good enough to get there. Maybe ?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Why would Corrin's or Lucina's fsmash be that high? They are good but not downright silly like Sonic's or MK's are. Falcon's and Rosalina's fsmashes are better than them and I would argue for Villager's fsmash to be pretty high up there as well.

 

[TDK]

Why would Corrin's or Lucina's fsmash be that high? They are good but not downright silly like Sonic's or MK's are. Falcon's and Rosalina's fsmashes are better than them and I would argue for Villager's fsmash to be pretty high up there as well.

Corrin's range is ridiculous, and it's a really good ledge coverage option (roll in and you get the charging hitbox, attack or stand up you get tipped, jump you might still get tipped), and Lucina mains always rave about how good it is. Rosalina and Falcon's are incredible too (Why does Falcon have the most random disjoints he has no business having?). I'm not sure about villager's though, it's a projectile so it clanks with a lot of stuff, it's pretty slow and trades poorly.

At least, in my opinion.

 

[Routa]

When it comes to Miis... Well they aren't that lucky when it comes to F-Smashes.

Brawler has the worst F-Smash by far from the Miis. It is pretty much Wario's F-Smash. Huge power and decent reach, but horribly laggy. And the best part is... It is only active for 1 frame. It is called the 1 Frame Punch for a reason. You should only use it after a shieldbreak. Same tier as Wario's pretty much.

I would say that Swordspider has the best F-Smash from the Miis and perhaps the best Smash Attack kit from the Miis. It is pretty much mixture of Roy's and Lucina's F-Smash. Think about Lucina's F-Smash with Roy's animation. There isn't really much to say about it. Pretty average I would say. Good F-smash overall.

Gunner's F-Smash is weird. It is ****ty in terms of kill power, but it has huge range and it lasts long. It is mainly used at the ledge for edgeguarding and as a punish tool. The thing what makes it great it that it lasts long. Ofc it makes it more punishable on whiff, but you cannot simply spotdodge. It is hard to explain how the F-Smash should be used. I suggest watch some Gunner play to see how it should be used. In terms of killpower I would say D or even E. But in terms of usability and versatility I would say B-C. In general I would put it in C tier.

I find it rather odd to have Wario's B-throw being lower than other Mario Bros', but I can understand due to it having worse killpower.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Robin is probably C tier. Strong, but laggy as all hell. Takes a long time to start and a long time to end.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Link has a sweetpot at the tip of his sword that launches in 1 hit. Rosa's multiple hit is situational since it's only 1 hit if you use it when Luma's not right next to you.

Link's Fsmash 1 tipper is as precise as Marth's tipper. It's also not as good at killing as the second swing in general.

Since Funbot's gone I'm gonna make lists until he comes back, if he does (This time I'll get it right, lists are unordered)

and Wii Fit Trainer, Wario, Ganondorf, and little Mac were moved out of B.

But why? Their kill potential is within the range set in B. All kill sooner than Rosalina and Shulk when he lacks Smash Art. Also, Captain Falcon is still inexplicably in A, Fox deserves D, Bowser jr is a B, and Lucario as well with 100% worth of aura. We talked about all of this.

Edit: Took another look and saw that Wario is just outside the range of B. So never mind him.

 

[TDK]

Link's Fsmash 1 tipper is as precise as Marth's tipper. It's also not as good at killing as the second swing in general.



But why? Their kill potential is within the range set in B. All kill sooner than Rosalina and Shulk when he lacks Smash Art. Also, Captain Falcon is still inexplicably in A, Fox deserves D, Bowser jr is a B, and Lucario as well with 100% worth of aura. We talked about all of this.

Edit: Took another look and saw that Wario is just outside the range of B. So never mind him.

I wasn't actually aware that Mac/Wii Fit/Ganon killed, though I'd consider Wario's a bit too low since Rosalina's and Shulk's are already pushing it. There wasn't really any argument against Falcon's being in A the first time so I kept it. The other three, same thing unless I missed it.

 

[Kofu]

~ Gheb ~ mind explaining why you feel that Fox's FSmash is notably better than Bowser Jr.'s? I do think Fox's is better but they do different things. Fox's covers ground and moves him forward to punish, whereas Bowser Jr.'s FSmash is large, disjointed, powerful, and has very low cooldown. Its biggest issue is its multihit natire, which often causes it to clank uselessly before the final hit. However, it's still a strong choice against aerial opponents and it's essentially safe on shield, remarkable for a move that strong. I wish it could break shields like it did in the trailer

I'm also curious why you feel that Sonic's FSmash is exceptional among the move type. It's good, one of the better FSmashes, but it doesn't feel like an S tier move. Its best attribute is being able to catch the two frame on the ledge (anyone know the frame its charge window starts on?) which is a very good thing. Outside of that, it's rather slow at frame 18 and does pretty poor damage. Decent cooldown also redeems it a little and makes it hard to punish.

Villager's FSmash, as much as I love it, is probably not S tier but A. Being able to drop it from ledges and platforms to hit those below him is great (and can nab some really early kills since it gets stronger after it falls a few frames). However, as a projectile, it can be clanked/beaten or reflected (if reflected from a far enough distance Villager can Pocket it though). Its projectile nature does have some plusses; once it begins to fall its hitbox exists independent of Villager's state. I've gotten numerous kills from FSmash still hitting despite me being hit. The move also has very low cooldown at 21 frames.

Game & Watch's FSmash is okay. It's a little slow and requires a sweetspot to get its good kill power. It is, however, his longest-reaching horizontal attack (I think, BAir may beat it) and is nicely disjointed. The diagonal angle he holds the torch out at can let it be a decent anti-air. Cooldown isn't too shabby at 25 frames. It's also his strongest punish for a shieldbreak if you don't have Oil Panic charged or don't want to risk a 9. Only hits for two frames, though, which is unfortunate (and illogical). B or C tier.

I feel that Pikachu's FSmash is being glossed over a little. It has 8 active frames, with the strongest being in the middle of the attack. It also has good range, especially for Pikachu's small hurtbox. Also worth noting is that its smash charge window is one frame before the hitbox comes out, allowing it to release very quickly. For all this its recovery is a respectable 27 frames. Probably A or B tier.

 

[adom4]

~ Gheb ~ mind explaining why you feel that Fox's FSmash is notably better than Bowser Jr.'s? I do think Fox's is better but they do different things. Fox's covers ground and moves him forward to punish, whereas Bowser Jr.'s FSmash is large, disjointed, powerful, and has very low cooldown. Its biggest issue is its multihit natire, which often causes it to clank uselessly before the final hit. However, it's still a strong choice against aerial opponents and it's essentially safe on shield, remarkable for a move that strong. I wish it could break shields like it did in the trailer

I'm also curious why you feel that Sonic's FSmash is exceptional among the move type. It's good, one of the better FSmashes, but it doesn't feel like an S tier move. Its best attribute is being able to catch the two frame on the ledge (anyone know the frame its charge window starts on?) which is a very good thing. Outside of that, it's rather slow at frame 18 and does pretty poor damage. Decent cooldown also redeems it a little and makes it hard to punish.

Villager's FSmash, as much as I love it, is probably not S tier but A. Being able to drop it from ledges and platforms to hit those below him is great (and can nab some really early kills since it gets stronger after it falls a few frames). However, as a projectile, it can be clanked/beaten or reflected (if reflected from a far enough distance Villager can Pocket it though). Its projectile nature does have some plusses; once it begins to fall its hitbox exists independent of Villager's state. I've gotten numerous kills from FSmash still hitting despite me being hit. The move also has very low cooldown at 21 frames.

Game & Watch's FSmash is okay. It's a little slow and requires a sweetspot to get its good kill power. It is, however, his longest-reaching horizontal attack (I think, BAir may beat it) and is nicely disjointed. The diagonal angle he holds the torch out at can let it be a decent anti-air. Cooldown isn't too shabby at 25 frames. It's also his strongest punish for a shieldbreak if you don't have Oil Panic charged or don't want to risk a 9. Only hits for two frames, though, which is unfortunate (and illogical). B or C tier.

I feel that Pikachu's FSmash is being glossed over a little. It has 8 active frames, with the strongest being in the middle of the attack. It also has good range, especially for Pikachu's small hurtbox. Also worth noting is that its smash charge window is one frame before the hitbox comes out, allowing it to release very quickly. For all this its recovery is a respectable 27 frames. Probably A or B tier.

tbh i think Sonic's F-smash probably deserves S tier, just because of the absurd hitbox it has, it has one of the most bull**** hitboxes in the entire game.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Lucina's I would consider S-Tier due to being insanely strong and insanely disjointed while moving in a large arc. Lots of power, lots of coverage, has ways to lead into it.

Its actually Marth's I would hesitate on and perhaps only consider A tier. Tipper is stupid, rest of the move is not so hot.

 

[Flamegeyser]

We talkin' fsmashes now? Probably not as easy to rank as usmashes or the like, but let's go.
S candidates: MK, Mac, Marcina (probably just Lucina, Marth can go in A, and maybe Lucina can, too), Villager, Corrin, Sonic maybe
Only other thing I can think is Samus in A tier, otherwise I'm not too sure about anything.

 

[Nah]

Corrin and Lucina's Fsmashes are very good, but they don't compare to the absurdity that is Mac/Sonic/MK/etc Fsmashes. They're A tier.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Corrin and Lucina's Fsmashes are very good, but they don't compare to the absurdity that is Mac/Sonic/MK/etc Fsmashes. They're A tier.

I would argue Corrin's does compare. It has the tipper effect and decent kill power without it, the charge can be used to cover ledge options, it can be angled to hit 2 frames, and its safe when spaced.

 

[Vyrnx]

Samus's would probably be B tier since it's tied for fastest fsmash, strong, and has good range/disjoint, but has pretty bad end lag and is only active one frame.

Zero Suit's and Sheik's are bad. So are most of the others in the game... The fairly common fsmash type of being extremely strong but with awful startup and end lag is really not a good fsmash type (i.e. Bowser, DK, Charizard, Wario, etc). Little Mac, Cloud, and Pikachu have pretty good ones. Zelda's is actually pretty good.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Lucina's Fsmash is faster than Sonic's (10-13 vs 18-20), has an extra frame of being active (see prior), higher base damage (15 vs 14), over double the knockback base (65 vs 30) while losing in knockback growth by a smaller amount (80 vs 101). Identical hit angles (361)

Sonic's Fsmash is only better in growth and FAF (52 vs 48). I fail to see how there can be enough difference between the two to account for a whole tier.

 

[G. Stache]

Honestly, Luigi's f smash is a solid A rank. It comes out frame 12 (which is pretty fast, all things considered), fastest FAF of any f smash in the game if I'm not wrong (FAF is 42, if anyone wants to check or correct), it makes a pretty good short ranged poke and kills at pretty early percents (especially if angled up). Only problems I see are that it's short ranged and that it's only active for 1 frame.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Honestly, Luigi's f smash is a solid A rank. It comes out frame 12 (which is pretty fast, all things considered), fastest FAF of any f smash in the game if I'm not wrong (FAF is 42, if anyone wants to check or correct), it makes a pretty good short ranged poke and kills at pretty early percents (especially if angled up). Only problems I see are that it's short ranged and that it's only active for 1 frame.

Its -19 oos and -12 everything else. Its not a poke in any way shape or form. In comparison to its first frame it has 30 frames of end lag. Compare that to MK's who has the same FAF, more damage, a a little bit more range, and hits later making it only -6 oos and +1 everything else. Now THATS a good short ranged poke

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I feel that Pikachu's FSmash is being glossed over a little. It has 8 active frames, with the strongest being in the middle of the attack. It also has good range, especially for Pikachu's small hurtbox. Also worth noting is that its smash charge window is one frame before the hitbox comes out, allowing it to release very quickly. For all this its recovery is a respectable 27 frames. Probably A or B tier.

For those curious about smash charge windows, this is a good source. "Charge release" describes the frames it takes for the hitbox to come out from the charge state. And I think these numbers are important data as well. Like how Ike and Dedede have most of their startup handled before the charge state. Just keep in mind that both those characters have their first hitbox frame above them as a sourspot, and they need a few more to bring their weapon down in front of them.

Honestly, Luigi's f smash is a solid A rank. It comes out frame 12 (which is pretty fast, all things considered), fastest FAF of any f smash in the game if I'm not wrong (FAF is 42, if anyone wants to check or correct), it makes a pretty good short ranged poke and kills at pretty early percents (especially if angled up). Only problems I see are that it's short ranged and that it's only active for 1 frame.

Olimar, is #1 with a 40 FAF. Luigi's ties with Metaknight for second place at 42.

Sonic's Fsmash is only better in growth and FAF (52 vs 48). I fail to see how there can be enough difference between the two to account for a whole tier.

I would moreso compare Sonic's to Falcon/Ganondorf. The character reels back before putting out a massive hitbox. But they're all on the slow end for startup, and only Sonic has manageable endlag at 29. Ganon is 38 and Falcon is 40. Reeling back is sort of overrated, if the opponent was aiming to hit your initial position, there's extremely good odds they'll hit the reeled back position unless they're playing Marth or Zelda. That stuff about Sonic catching 2 frame ledge snaps is also true. My go to test for this is to see if a move hits Ganondorf as he's hanging on the ledge. If it can hit him, then it's reasonable to assume that the move will hit even the lowest of ledge snap positions. Of course, you'd have to time an 18 startup move with three active frames around 2 frames of vulnerability which is easier said than done. But the only other Fsmash remotely capable of this feat seems to be Villager for obvious reasons, so it deserves mention. I would consider Sonic for A at the highest. The only one I would lock in for S so far is Little Mac, but Sonic should be wherever Falcon and Ganon are by being less committal, yet much weaker.

As for who's better between Marth and Lucina, I vote Marth. The killing power of Fsmash tipper is so good, up there with Bowser and Dedede, and losing only to Lucario once he's got about 100% worth of Aura. Obviously the tipper is not easy to land but they're both characters with a move designed to break shields, just like Bowser. Both characters also have to grapple with high endlag too, but S isn't unreasonable for Marth in my opinion.

I would argue Corrin's does compare. It has the tipper effect and decent kill power without it, the charge can be used to cover ledge options, it can be angled to hit 2 frames, and its safe when spaced.

Corrin's cannot hit 2 frame ledge snaps consistently. With perfect spacing, it just doesn't reach under the ledge enough.

 

[Funbot28]

Ok posting the final B-throw update:

Spoiler: Back-throw

TL;DR:
A -> B
B -> A
C-> B
C -> B
C -> B
B -> C
B -> C
C-> D
C -> D

Ok so everyone started discussing Forward-Smash which is great so keep doing that and a preliminary list should be up by tomorrow.

Srry again, will try to be less AFK, have college and everything so its hard at times.

 

[FamilyTeam]

I think when discussing Lucina's FSmash, you guys are forgetting one pretty important thing...
She has true setups that end in FSmash. It being fast and killing early already is a great asset in its own right; it being disjointed as hell and even covering above Lucina is also great, but the fact that most characters can get true comboed into an FSmash as early as 65% makes it extremely deadly.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I did mention that but only lightly as I'm not super confident in what she has in terms of true combos vs just set ups.

That is something I believe none of the characters currently in S-Tier for Fsmashes have. Something rather important: easy access to landing the Fsmash in a combo. Sonic might have a footstool lock of some kind, same with MK, but I wouldn't consider those as easy.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

I did mention that but only lightly as I'm not super confident in what she has in terms of true combos vs just set ups.

That is something I believe none of the characters currently in S-Tier for Fsmashes have. Something rather important: easy access to landing the Fsmash in a combo. Sonic might have a footstool lock of some kind, same with MK, but I wouldn't consider those as easy.

Cmon, back throw > dash attack > up air > footstool > first 2 hits of fair > d tilt > first 2 hits of bair > 3x d tilt > fsmash isn't THAT hard

Really though, MK doesn't need a way to combo into his f smash. Its completely safe on block, has ridiculous range in comparison to the rest of him, hits below the ledge, and has an amazing charge release frame

 

[Flowen231]

I think the best F smashes in order are Olimar/MK/Sonic/Pikachu/Luigi due to a mix of their safety and power. Luma's F smash is also great because of it's insane knock back, reach and the fact that it can catch people at the ledge wile luma is disjointed for stupid safety. I'd call those the top tier ones.

Corrin would be my next choice with it's power and edge trap potential, followed by Villager for the same reasons. Lucina would be next for her ability to lead into it out of a jab 1 and a falling first hit of Nair at kill percents. I'd put Marth's right bellow Luci's since it has all of the same properties and stupid kill power, but the practical setups for it are not as easy to land as Luci's due to a lack of hitstun on non tippers and an opponent's ability to SDI out of range if you do get them with a tipper jab/Nair hit 1. Not to mention that if it doesn't tip it's pretty mediocre.

EDIT: Forgot to mention Diddy since it's pretty strong and banana>Fsmash is a very easy conversion, I'd put him above Corrin in S tier.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Luigi's fsmash isn't safe in any sense of the word. Its only decent because of how strong it is in comparison to its speed.

 

[G. Stache]

Its -19 oos and -12 everything else. Its not a poke in any way shape or form. In comparison to its first frame it has 30 frames of end lag. Compare that to MK's who has the same FAF, more damage, a a little bit more range, and hits later making it only -6 oos and +1 everything else. Now THATS a good short ranged poke

I said a pretty good poke because it makes you slide if you don't perfect shield, and if you want to approach again you have to deal with a frame 2 jab. All things considered, I still retain that it's a pretty good poke. At least on Luigi. Is it better than MK's? Of course not, and I never claimed it to be on the same tier as MK's.

 

[DunnoBro]

Luigi's fsmash isn't safe in any sense of the word. Its only decent because of how strong it is in comparison to its speed.

No lol Its irrefutably one of the safest fsmashes in the game. 42 FAF with huge shield push means it's only punishable by tether grabs or on whiff of very fast characters.

Fsmashes aren't that safe to begin with, mind you.

I'd say mac and mk's are the only S-tier fsmashes.

Maaaybe sonic, definitely top of A tier if not S. His hurtbox isn't as deceiving as MK's during the charge plus the reward isn't quite as high. If it's S-tier it's due to the superior follow-up and ledge coverage.

Corrin's smash is unique and definitely A tier. It's mere existence guarantees a regrab punish, but it's a bit excessive with dragon lunge already. And while safe spaced on shield, it's still unsafe on whiff or unspaced. Sonic, MK, an Mac don't need to worry about that much at all.

 

[HoSmash4]

In my opinion range is extremely important for smash attacks, more so than safety on shield because of the pushback smash attacks are on shield, you'll find that smashes with more range are harder to punish on shield than smashes that are slightly safer on shield frame wise.

 

[Arrei]

Has someone saidhas the worst Fsmash in the game yet?

Becausehas the worst Fsmash in the game.

Second slowest after Dedede's, worse FAFs than Dedede's despite coming out 10 frames earlier, less power than more usable slow n' heavy Fsmashes like's, a tip sourspot for even less power, no setups or traps apart from hard reads.

F Tier for sure.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Has someone saidhas the worst Fsmash in the game yet?

Becausehas the worst Fsmash in the game.

I was under the impression 's was weaker overall.
Cause at least 's reliability does it's job 100% of the time when it hits.
But hey I don't main any of these characters, so maybe there's something I'm missing here.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Ok posting the final B-throw update:

Spoiler: Back-throw

View attachment 118953

TL;DR:
A -> B
B -> A
C-> B
C -> B
C -> B
B -> C
B -> C
C-> D
C -> D

Ok so everyone started discussing Forward-Smash which is great so keep doing that and a preliminary list should be up by tomorrow.

Srry again, will try to be less AFK, have college and everything so its hard at times.

Bruh, how is Peach still in C tier? And why was Meta Knight moved DOWN when he should have been moved up to A tier? But I digress.

Anyway, Pikachu's fsmash should be A tier, if not S tier. Not only is it strong, it also has very little endlag, I believe being tied with Diddy Kong for third lowest endlag in the game.

And as I was researching, I discovered that Olimar's fsmash has insane frame data. It comes out on frame 11, which is blisteringly fast, and ONLY HAS 11 FRAMES OF ENDLAG. That is completely ridiculous for an fsmash, and is 7 frames better than Meta Knight's. And because he throws the Pikmin, it has good range as well. The only issue is that it is a projectile, so it can be cancelled out easily and can be reflected. It's also incredibly strong with a purple Pikmin, but does mediocre knockback with the other types. Still, unless there's something I'm missing, this move seems amazing just from looking at the frame data.

 

[MarshieMan]

's Fsmash is pretty good. Average in all of its stats, but has the drawback of being a multi-hit allowing proper DI. However Diddy is the only character i can think of besides maybe lucina who can get a gauranteed Fsmash at kill percents with his banana.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Corrin's forward smash is absolutely not S tier. Not with the frame data on it.

Mario's is definitely A tier because not only is it decently fast, but it's very strong when sweetspotted, which isn't hard to do.

Roy's forward smash is infamous for just how ridiculously strong it is, but it is by no means safe, and for that reason I think it's B tier.

Jigglypuff's is your typical "slow but strong" smash attack, although it is surprisingly strong, even when taking its speed into account. C tier.

Rosalina's is A tier I would say. The balance between speed and power on it is quite nice, and when combined with Luma's, the attack becomes pretty broken. The only problem is that Luma is not always there.

 

[Masonomace]

Another rating for his forward smash isn't needed, but factor in the extra variables that can make his forward smash not as bad, & you get a forward smash that looks garbage on-paper but is actually not as bad as you expect in practice. A full-on drift into landing with Hard Lag & using forward smash can help the move be safer. Pivoting it for a run-by poke behind one's shield can be safer. And even simply using this & space it well enough that your second hit is the Blade sweetspot dealing huge shield hitlag & stun despite of the horrendous endlag.

This all varies on the character's traction as well as whether you choose to hold the charge long enough to release it with a frame 6 startup attack, & angling it up or down grants one additional active frame but I would just advise to angle it up so that the opponent won't "fall" out of the move as much & for the increased knockback growth on the second hit. And if you wish to attempt edge-guarding with forward smash, you can angle the move downward to try catching the 2-frame window as long as you space it enough that you reliably hit it more often with the Beam sourspot.

Also, if you want to try fishing for a forward smash, you can do it in this way that even if you do get punished as the end-result you won't be in so much risk. And never sleep on high rage-augmented forward smash angled up, period. C tier as the regular but can be B tier if you're smart.

 

[HoSmash4]

I'd put Villager Fsmash as S because of its unique Edgeguard utility

 

[TheHypnotoad]

I'd put Villager Fsmash as S because of its unique Edgeguard utility

Ehh, S might be a bit much for such a slow move with such terrible range. Definitely A, though.

 

[Nysyr]

Ehh, S might be a bit much for such a slow move with such terrible range. Definitely A, though.

It's only slow on the startup, the thing is pretty hard to punish and the edge-guard being super amazing makes it definitely S tier material.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

It's only slow on the startup, the thing is pretty hard to punish and the edge-guard being super amazing makes it definitely S tier material.

Yeah, I was only referring to the startup. It's pretty easy to shield it on reaction because of how slow it is.

 

[MarshieMan]

We need kill percent stats for Fsmashes at the ledge (with optimal DI)

 

[MrGameguycolor]

We need kill percent stats for Fsmashes at the ledge (with optimal DI)

Should probably note that some Fsmashs kill earlier depending if they're tilled up or down.

 

[Masonomace]

MarshieMan MrGameguycolor For ledge-hanging or just standing at the ledge? Angled up Fsmashes probably won't even hit them even if X character has a big hurtbox e.g. nose face etc., but if some can then they should be noted. Just standing on-stage at ledge though, that is fine as long as the victim character's exact position matches where they'd be if they're sitting in shield after a ledge-getup for the advantageous angled up or down Fsmash.

I'm also wondering if just the launching hit should be labbed. Including the entire move for multi-hits would probably put them at better rankings in terms of kill potential for obvious reasons so.