R.O.B. Matchup Analysis #25 - Pit/Dark Pit

[GwJ]

Before we get too far into this, can someone state the differences between Pit and Dark Pit?

 

[Lizard_Buttock]

The differences between Pit and Edgy Pit is that Edgy's N-Special can turn less than vanilla pit, but does more damage. Edgy's F-tilt KOs later (but it hardly matters, considering that it's not a good KO option anyway) and his Side special KOs earlier. Beyond that, they're functionally identical.
I haven't actually faced a good Pit, so I don't really know the matchup.

 

[Ze Diglett]

God, this matchup's annoying. All of Pit's aerials are hella disjointed, so we don't have much to challenge them with. Not even our trusty Nair can consistently break through that ****. I feel like DP is a marginally better matchup for us since his arrows are slower and less maneuverable in the air, which makes it more difficult to try and camp us out. That Upperdash/Electroshock Arm is super annoying as well for both characters, though if we interrupt it with Gyro, we can capitalize on the endlag, which can potentially mean a free Grab. Basically, just be patient and try to keep him on the ground since his ground game isn't as good as his air/juggle game. I don't have much in the way of concrete MU ratios, but I reckon it's probably in [Dark] Pit's favor.

 

[MintyBreeze]

Referring to his range; Are we sure that he isn't dangerous on the ground, as well? Seemingly all of his attacks outrange R.O.B's, too, not to mention having relatively the same speed output... Plus, even on the ground, he's relatively speedy. Not sure exactly how much this matters, however, but in the air, R.O.B is actually faster than Pit, by about a third, and is very near him in terms of ground speed.

Overall, I would make the theory that our gyros and lasers, coupled with his predictable approach, help to make it so that it's at least fairly simple to keep him back from us if he approaches. Let's not forget that he still has a Down-B shield, though, which actually reflects the laser.

Against the various arms, couldn't we also use our own Side-B to punish it afterward?

 

[Wintropy]

The differences are:

- Pit's arrows can be guided to a greater degree than Dark Pit's; Dark Pit's are faster and do more damage
- Pit's side-b launches directly upwards; Dark Pit's launches at a diagonal angle
- Dark Pit's f-tilt is a tad weaker than Pit's
- Dark Pit has a kick-ass theme song

I don't have much trouble with this if I'm playing well. R.O.B. is a big target and, while his aerials are strong, ours are faster and can just about outrange him in an air fight; Pit is a good aerial fighter, so this is advantageous for us. R.O.B.'s size and weight also makes him combo food if Pit is clever and can get a grab in, and his recovery is criminally easy to spike and gimp if he goes off-stage.

That said, approaching R.O.B. is very tricky, and Pit's Orbies are way too slow to be reliable as a reflect. Walling out Pit with lasers and gyros is a good option - if Pit can't get to you, there's only so much he can do with his arrows. He also lacks landing options, so while he may fare better in a straight-up air fight, he's very easy to juggle. You just have to wait 'til he drops his guard and keep the pressure on him.

This matchup is, in my experience, quite drawn-out and it comes down to a staring contest: both will try to bait the other into moving, keeping up the pressure with aerial combos and projectiles - first one to blink is out. You have to be willing to play Pit's game in this matchup. Don't rush in or get all gung-ho on him, as that's exactly what he wants you to do - play it cleverly and watch for predictable tactics, and make sure you're keeping an eye on your own moves as well. Keep the pressure on and bait him out, then go for the kill.

God, this matchup's annoying. All of Pit's aerials are hella disjointed, so we don't have much to challenge them with. Not even our trusty Nair can consistently break through that ****. I feel like DP is a marginally better matchup for us since his arrows are slower and less maneuverable in the air, which makes it more difficult to try and camp us out. That Upperdash/Electroshock Arm is super annoying as well for both characters, though if we interrupt it with Gyro, we can capitalize on the endlag, which can potentially mean a free Grab. Basically, just be patient and try to keep him on the ground since his ground game isn't as good as his air/juggle game. I don't have much in the way of concrete MU ratios, but I reckon it's probably in [Dark] Pit's favor.

Interrupting the Arm is a good tactic and will force Pit(too) to think twice about using it. I agree that Pit has a modest advantage over Pittoo, as the degree of control you have on the arrows makes it much more useful overall.

Referring to his range; Are we sure that he isn't dangerous on the ground, as well? Seemingly all of his attacks outrange R.O.B's, too, not to mention having relatively the same speed output... Plus, even on the ground, he's relatively speedy. Not sure exactly how much this matters, however, but in the air, R.O.B is actually faster than Pit, by about a third, and is very near him in terms of ground speed.

Overall, I would make the theory that our gyros and lasers, coupled with his predictable approach, help to make it so that it's at least fairly simple to keep him back from us if he approaches. Let's not forget that he still has a Down-B shield, though, which actually reflects the laser.

Against the various arms, couldn't we also use our own Side-B to punish it afterward?

Pit is dangerous enough on the ground, at least insofar as his dash combos into u-smash at low percents and he has an f-tilt that can kill at the tip. As for the Orbies, unless you're extremely predictable with your projectiles, it's not too much to worry about: they're too slow to be much of a threat, though the Arm can also divert incoming projectiles if it intercepts them on the way.

 

[MintyBreeze]

This matchup is, in my experience, quite drawn-out and it comes down to a staring contest: both will try to bait the other into moving, keeping up the pressure with aerial combos and projectiles - first one to blink is out. You have to be willing to play Pit's game in this matchup. Don't rush in or get all gung-ho on him, as that's exactly what he wants you to do - play it cleverly and watch for predictable tactics, and make sure you're keeping an eye on your own moves as well. Keep the pressure on and bait him out, then go for the kill.

Pit is dangerous enough on the ground, at least insofar as his dash combos into u-smash at low percents and he has an f-tilt that can kill at the tip. As for the Orbies, unless you're extremely predictable with your projectiles, it's not too much to worry about: they're too slow to be much of a threat, though the Arm can also divert incoming projectiles if it intercepts them on the way.

Plus, I guess we still have the Arm Rotor to potentially deflect them back even if the Orbs work. So, this MU is basically about reading your opponent and boring him into making a decision? Huh.

So, on his lack of landing options... I'm thinking that U-Tilt and F-Air could maybe keep him from reaching the ground, in that case, because if I were a Pit, I'd probably try to recover from the side against R.O.B if I had the choice, orrrrr... In your experience, does the Pit ever try to get down with his N-Air? It seems like it'd subdue us long enough for him to get down.

 

[Wintropy]

Plus, I guess we still have the Arm Rotor to potentially deflect them back even if the Orbs work. So, this MU is basically about reading your opponent and boring him into making a decision? Huh.

Arm Rotor is definitely worth considering. You can use it as a hail mary to keep Pit off of your case if he's getting antsy, and follow up with a good angled laser or f-air chain if he tries to come back from the air. Oh, and you can grab out of Orbies if Pit can't reflect anything in time.

And yeah, that's how it works out for me at least. Don't be afraid to take the fight to him if he's determined to camp you out, just remember that he wants to space you and punish you for dropping your guard, and that you have two much more versatile projectiles than he does.

So, on his lack of landing options... I'm thinking that U-Tilt and more situationally F-Air could maybe keep him from reaching the ground, in that case, because if I were a Pit, I'd probably try to recover from the side against R.O.B if I had the choice, orrrrr... In your experience, does the Pit ever try to get down with his N-Air? It seems like it'd subdue us long enough for him to get down.

U-tilt definitely works, as does u-air, n-air and - very situationally - f-air and b-air

In my experience, Pit's n-air can work as a landing option, though fastfall d-air or b-air (the latter of which can kill at the tip) are often better choices. If he's really crafty and your guard is down, fastfall landing Upperdash Arm can also work to get you in the air or KO. That also reminds me that shorthop N-air is a good pressure tactic from Pit and a great OOS option: if you try to get too close, he can just catch you in the n-air and knock you back. The last hit is also a good setup for jablock combos, and due to R.O.B.'s huge hitbox, you're particularly vulnerable if Pit decides to go ham with the combo game.

 

[MintyBreeze]

Arm Rotor is one of my favorite moves in general for punishing, especially against another Side-B. I can move past the Orbs and grab Pit? I assumed since it pushed you back that something like that wouldn't work... *Consults Wiki* Apparently, after the shield has taken enough fixed hits (thus, I don't think damage matters), it takes ten seconds to recharge but also gives the attack less ending lag. Not a trade worth making, so I think if we have the chance we should just grab him, like you said.

Hmmm... Now that I think about it, N-Air can attack diagonally against any opponent, although the same could be said of Pit's. I would say to be weary of throwing out U-Airs, but (this is not quite related to the MU, but good for us anyways to exploit) really, not many of the players we fight against respect the U-Air enough to warrant us not using it, I think. I can't say much besides that each of these would probably fit different situations better than the other.

I remember that against a Fox, when we were both at high percentages and above/off stage, he dashed to the ledge and I ended the game via Arm Rotor. So, he could try to pull a Little Mac on us. If that's the case, I think Pit is more of a nuisance when trying to land than a legitimate threat, since we can outspeed him there with our attacks. If I'm on the right track, Pit is a character with many jumps, but if he abuses them, he can get juggled. So, in that case... I think our best bet when he's in the air is to take potshots with our retreating/spacing attacks, (N-Air, F-Air) pressure him on the ground with our better ranged projectiles, and finish him off with our anti-air attacks, which we use most of the time anyways.

Now, all of this, of course, is assuming that we can get him there in the first place, so let's step back and look at how to get him there.

Edit: Are there any customs that would significantly change this MU? I'm sorry, I have very few for either character(s).

 

[Makorel]

In regards to customs, maybe Pit's Impact Orbitars? It turns the big shields on his Down B from a somewhat reliable reflector into a damaging move that does 5%, sends the target at a low horizontal angle, and outranges all of R.O.B.'s aerials. If Pit is running it he basically trades laser punishes (gyro just falls to the floor) for better edge guarding. Also Guiding Bow, which fires arrows that have better turning than default and are also better for edge guarding in skillful hands.

I'm not sure about R.O.B.'s customs. I don't play R.O.B. myself so I don't know much about them other than Robo Rocket being the fastest recovery makes him harder to hit, and also I think I heard people like slip gyro.

 

[MintyBreeze]

@ Makorel : Positively all of R.O.B's aerials, even his N-Air? Oh, that isn't pretty at all. Pit already has a range advantage, though, and most R.O.B's recover low anyways; It's good to know that he has another physical move to potentially outrange us with, but I think most Pit's would stick with the default to reflect our junk back at us. Meanwhile, I could see that Bow custom helping shoot R.O.B down while he's in his Up-B. Pit doesn't neccessarily seem to have custom counters against R.O.B, just alternateoptions.
Also, Dark Pit's customs seem to be the same deal, so there isn't a difference there.

Hmmmm... Nothing explicit, although I haven't tried out R.O.B's customs much. I don't think anything could keep me away from the default Up-B, though, I love not being able to get gimped.

What about Pit's grabs? Seeing as he's an aerial character, and that R.O.B's hurtbox is so large, I imagine Pit would have an easy time chaining attacks into grabs. Wasn't it his down throw that leads into a lot of his attacks? I thought it could potentially lead to an Up-Smash.

 

[Makorel]

grab and follow ups are pretty bread and butter for Pit. dthrow to Up smash is a true combo at low percents, and I can usually get multiple up airs too because of ROB's large size and moderate falling speed. It's either that or dash attack which loses to shields but has a longer reach, something that helps to get in on a character that tries to keep you out like ROB.

Also I must be fighting bad ROBs. I haven't had too much trouble gimping him especially with the limited fuel up B has.

 

[Syde7]

Not much to add on this topic that hasn't been said... but I do want to say that the juggles for Pit are real. IIRC, they outlast an airdodge if put in at a decent time. Also, Pit's N-air and U-air is a great platform tech-chase option. U-air when from directly below, N-air if he's coming from the side (say... an f-tilt or something like hit you from one side platform on BF to the other, or from the ground to the other. Pit follows up with an N-air to cover the platform tech/missed tech.

 

[MintyBreeze]

Well, looks like this particular MU thread is complete.