R.O.B. Matchup Analysis #23 - Wario

[GwJ]

 

[Syde7]

Will be posting my thoughts tomorrow. This MU is a bit difficult for me, so I'll lay out what I see as potential problems and where i feel its at & hopefully get some good input. If no one replies after this... can I 2x post, or would you prefer an edit?

 

[Syde7]

Sorry for the double post... but, I kinda wanted to bump this with my thoughts as opposed to just letting the thread slide down the forum....

This is a tough MU for me. We have a good Wario in NC who just doesn't make it out to a lot of tournaments where I'm at, so we don't play often. The only other Wario is also in an area that results in us not playing often. So, part of this analysis may be due to player skill + player unfamiliarity + MU Unfamiliarity. As such, I can't be super detailed, and hopefully some Wario mains will make their way in here (will be linking them to it after I post this) to straighten out any misinformation I may have or present. That being said, this is a tough MU for me, and here's my reasoning:

• I feel Wario's bite is a good tool in this MU. It almost renders a gyro sitting out there in neutral useless, as he can just eat it. It reduces the effectiveness of landing traps for this reason as well.
• Wario's N-air is solid OoS option. His aerial mobility is such that he can use it OoS without much fear of punishment in the event he misses somehow.
• Wario's D-air is solid as well.
  • If he approaches with it from the side (as opposed to going over and dropping onto you) I feel that there's not a lot you can do since he can autocancel it into possibly a bite, grab, jab, or whatever else... usually before you have time to respond with something providing he is in that nice angle that's above up-angled F-tilt/F-smash range and U-tilt range. Even if he falls into F-tilt/F-smash angle, its going to be a bit hard to hit with it due to their speed. He can bike to punish a roll away. Plus, I believe it (the D-air) has some side hitboxes... not 100% sure.
  • If he approaches from the top, I'm fairly certain you can beat it with U-tilt and U-smash. Which option is best depends on the situation, and the height that he started the attack from. Further up = U-smash. Closer to you = U-Tilt.
  • D-air pairs well with bite in terms of constructing some good mix-ups, especially if you find yourself having a hard time hitting the D-air with your U-tilt/U-smash (for whatever reason, maybe poor reaction/prediction, maybe he's dropping through certain heighted platforms...etc) and are forced into shield.
• Wario's F-air is a great aerial counter-poke tool. Though the range isn't phenomenal, it does have a smidge on it, but the speed at which it comes out on frame 5 and lingers for awhile (I think around frame 17 if I'm interpreting the frame data I have correctly vs our F-air that comes out on frame 6 & doesn't last as long (not sure of the active frames) & our N-air that starts on frame 18 & ends on frame 32 (again, if the data I have is correct / am interpreting it correctly.
  • Couple that with his great air speed (#3 in the game behind Yoshi & Jigglypuff) and his similar fall speed & weight to ROB and that yields him being able to trace ROB's movement in the air almost perfectly and respond with a faster, longer lasting aerial.
• Wario's B-air comes out on frame 9 I believe. Even though our F-air is a smidge faster it almost doesn't matter as I see Wario using the B-air as more of an edgeguarding KO move, most effective when we start our up+B, or right after we cancel it with an aerial. Its a strong KO option in most circumstances, but is a huge threat when ROB is recovering. Due to his great recovery, Wario can really go deep to look to land this, and coupled with his air speed/weight/fall speed is able to match ROBs movement almost perfectly so it requires a lot less prediction or timing to hit with in an edgeguard situation.
• U-air is a good low percent juggling & combo ending tool, especially with his mobility and ROBs blindspot. I also think that falling (platform dropping especially, since there's several solid options he can use from a platform such as N-air, D-air, and Bite) U-air is a solid occasional mix-up that can net some good damage off of setting up for combos.
• I struggle to no end with Wario's bite.
  • Its a phenomenal ledgeguarding tool vs. ROB. Either I suck at the ledge (which is probably accurate) but I feel that bite beats out a lot of ROB's ledge options, and the cooldown of bite is such that when he's spaced it properly from the edge, he can throw another one out in the event you attempted to wait it out.
  • Its a great mix-up tool, as I touched on before.
  • Good option for a platform drop.
  • Can be a good combo/string-breaker providing you try to extend even the slightest more than what's guaranteed.
  • Its also got some weird hitboxy properties. I can stand in one spot, Wario stand in another... he bites & misses. Bites again, and without either of us moving... it hits. Its hard to get a feel for proper spacing against this move.
• Wario's bike isn't THAT big of a deal for me, providing he starts it up at a decent enough range. A quick laser will knock him out of it, and I think gyro can fux with it, too. What is problematic is when he uses the bike to extend the active frames of hitboxes. Given ROB's clunkiness, I find myself sometimes getting hit with these extended frames more than I should bc its a bit difficult to space around. Plus, odds are the Wario's set-up for a hitbox extension and its more of a landing trap scenario and/or edgeguarding situation.
• Then there's Waft. I don't know if there's any guaranteed set-ups for it vs. ROB (or in general), but I feel that its easier to hit on ROB than a large swath of chars due to ROBs size.
• Also, I feel that if Wario gets the lead and is really committed to going for a time-out, he can do it vs. ROB fairly well.

All in all, I personally struggle in finding answers to a lot of Wario's kit. He's too nimble & floaty with some decently favorable frame data on most of his moveset that makes it hard to punish, and the mobility makes him hard to predict. He has a solid edgeguarding game via B-air, Bite, Tilts/Smashes and other situational facets of his kit. He lives quite a long time, and can pretty safely recover from pretty far away.

I don't know any other Wario mains aside from @TheReflexWonder , but I'll post in the Wario forum to see if anyone can shed light on stuff.

 

[Routa]

Hmm... I think this MU is kinda 50/50. I have the same reasoning as Syde7, but I would like to add that Wario has hard time KOing ROB due to ROB's weight. But then again my knowledge in this MU is very limited.

 

[DavemanCozy]

I played this MU vs Holy at EGE, a tournament he won, he gave me some interesting insight on the MU.

Firstly, D-air doesn't autocancel in short hops anymore, only in full jumps.

Neither Wario nor ROB like being in the ledge against each other. ROB can leave a gyro spinning by the edge and deny Wario options to come back onstage, while Wario has a bike that can be thrown and bite to cover most getup options. That said, ROB has a significantly easier time setting up his gyro trap, it's much easier for ROB to deploy the gyro in the right spot than for Wario to ditch the bike so it stays where he wants it. ROB can also just go under the stage and U-air Wario while he's throwing the bike up or attempting a chomp trap, just watch out for him shielding it cuz re-grabbing the ledge is going to result in Wario D-air spiking ROB, or worse he could just waft you and end you.

Wario is capable of eating all of ROB's projectiles as long as they correctly line up with his mouth. So if you hit his head, he won't eat it and take damage instead. Keep in mind too that eating a gyro recovers Wario 1% (measly) and charges Waft by 1 sec (dangerous). I wouldn't go as far as to say Gyros are useless against Wario, just be smart about how you toss them. If you expect Wario to Chomp, then don't throw it at him, glide-toss towards him by throwing it down and attack him instead. Chomp gets beaten by attacks, it's a command grab. Likewise, Chomp being a command grab means it beats shields: watch out if you shield on platforms or when Wario is landing near you. This is a general Wario thing to watch out for, no matter which character you play against him: always respect the bite, he can snatch you if he catches you shielding no matter where he's coming from.

Whenever ROB recovers low, it's an almost free waft for Wario because of the way ROB's hurtbox behaves when he's recovering / grabbing ledge, and also because of how low the Waft hitbox actually is (it's deceivingly lower than the gas cloud startup). Recovering can be a pain for Wario as well, despite his bike giving him options. You as ROB have a laser, gyros, F-air and U-air (if he's recovering high), all of which used together can stop Wario. He is unable to use the bike again if he's knocked off it offstage until he lands again.

ROB outranges Wario for sure. Wario may be faster than ROB in the air and in frame data, but that doesn't mean you can't space tilts and aerials against him. N-air is especially awesome against Wario because of the travelling hitbox around ROB and the explosion makes it hard for Wario to find a safe time to go in with how long it lasts. Wario's F-air can't deal with it's range, but it can catch ROB on startup.

You can stop Wario's onstage bike shenanigans with a laser from afar. It pierces through the bike and Wario will just fall off. Keep in mind the bike also loses its hitbox when you knock Wario off this way, I've seen other ROBs knock me off this way and shield the incoming bike when there's actually nothing to fear. The bike's hitbox is only active if Wario jumps off it.
If Wario is already close to you with the bike, it may be tempting to shield and then try shield-grabbing him, but this isn't a good idea if Wario knows what he's doing. Wario can do a wheelie to generate another hitbox or to a 180 to generate multiple hitboxes on the back wheel. The best thing to do is sit on your shield and D-smash as soon as you notice the bike go past you, you'll knock Wario off the bike and you'll also be hitting behind you. D-smash is one of ROB's fastest moves when being pressured (as I'm sure most of you are aware).

I'm sorry I don't know more about ROB's moves and how they interact with Wario, I've been doing this mu more with Fox lately. I hope this helped nonetheless, and I'll edit this if anything else comes to mind.

Holy is a real homie too, always shares advice with me after we play together. This man beat all of Ontario + Nakat last weekend at GOML and took it for Montreal. Best ROB in the world imo.

 

[Syde7]

Great write-ups @ DavemanCozy & @ Routa . Def dropped some knowledge on me I wasnt aware of. What would you peg the ratio at? Also, any stage suggestions? Sorry for typos, on mobile.

 

[Routa]

I would say maybe 50:50 or 55:45 in favor of ROB. Tbh I dunno about the stages in Wii U, but in 3DS theren't any stage that is unfavorable for Wario. Prism Tower might be ROB's best stage in this MU and I suggest to avoid Arena Ferox.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Great write-ups @ DavemanCozy & @ Routa . Def dropped some knowledge on me I wasnt aware of. What would you peg the ratio at? Also, any stage suggestions? Sorry for typos, on mobile.

Imo 55:45

I think good picks are stages where Wario dies off the top early against ROB, like Halberd, Town, etc.

Personally I like Lylat when I play as Wario since the tilting stage let's him auto-cancel some aerials more easily. The platforms also let him work with different angles to ride the bike from. Duck Hunt is also a nice Wario stage because the tree and bush give him places to run away to and give him time to charge the waft.

 

[Syde7]

Thanks a bunch. I see it as about the same... though reversed, lol. Will p rolly change with more exp tho. In the meantime, I'm fine with calling it a 50/50.

 

[Lizard_Buttock]

No matter how good Wario's farts are, ROB still has the best farts in the game. I don't have that much experience here, but it's easy to bait Chomp with gyros.

 

[Ze Diglett]

All I really know about this matchup from experience is 1.) R.O.B. outranges Wario pretty hard, even from a melee standpoint, 2.) we have to play pretty conservatively with our Gyro in the neutral since he can just eat it, 3.) Nair beats Wario's aerials for the most part, though it's really the only thing we can use to challenge his aerials, and 4.) Laser and launched/thrown Gyro both hit Wario off his bike (though this doesn't really mean much since any good Wario will just leap off the bike anyway). I can definitely agree with 50:50 on this one, though I can certainly settle for 55:45 R.O.B.

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

@ DavemanCozy Thanks for your input.

@ Syde7

Abadango(Wario) Vs. Vinnie (Shiek/R.O.B.):

Apparently this was Abadango's first experience against a R.O.B., but don't quote me on that.

Can't say I know much about the matchup from personal experience. I don't face alot of legitimately skilled R.O.B. All I know is that alot of his neutrals come out faster than Wario's and that Wario has more than enough recovery to afford trying to gimp R.O.B.

 

[DavemanCozy]

ROB's Fair also covers that quarter-circle arc in front and above him. Good for stopping Wario coming down with something, he has fast aerials but poor range with them.

And holy crap, that shield break was just silly. Yeah, if Wario breaks the bike it causes an explosion that deals damage. Combine that with Waft damage ... Abadango displayed a pretty powerful frame trap there, even if Vinnie had spot-dodged or rolled, he would've been hit by the lingering hitbox anyways and gotten KO'd with Waft's power (like Nairo said commentating, destroying the bike extends the hitbox by 20 frames, same thing that happens when you hit the statues in Castle Siege).

 

[Jams.]

In my experience ROB's fair doesn't actually cover the quarter circle above him. Visually there's the trail his arms leave, but it doesn't actually have a hitbox.