R.O.B. Matchup Analysis #19 - Ganondorf

[GwJ]

As for a matchup, Ganondorf does horrible against R.O.B, he can spike him badly due to Ganon's bad recovery, and can R.O.B can keep dodging and planting Gyro's. not to mention no projectiles or reflect moves.

 

[Wintropy]

R.O.B. should walk (trundle?) this one. Keep Ganondorf away and don't be stupid enough to get up in his face.

It's like Robin / Ganondorf: zone him out and respect his space. This is not a difficult matchup.

 

[Ze Diglett]

I could write a long-winded essay about the advantages and disadvantages of both sides, but really, the matchup is seriously stacked in R.O.B.'s favor. Zone him out with Gyro, harass him with Laser, and don't get Ganoncided and this MU is pretty simple (though at times, that last part is easier said than done).

 

[Crome]

vs
70:30 (R.O.B's favor).
Not too good for Ganon. Can easily be cheesed out with gryos. He can very easily be gimped, spiked, or WoP, Unless that Ganon is The Real Inferno and he humiliates you with power shields. Just make sure you don't let him get close. Seriously, don't try to challenge him. Although if you do, resetting to neutral is fairly easy.

 

[A2ZOMG]

ROB's favor? You gotta be kidding me. This is definitely one of Ganondorf's better matchups.

Matchup is 6/4 Ganon's favor, especially after the U-throw nerf. Ganon does like twice as much damage as ROB, actually outranges him thus beating ROB in neutral both in spacing options and sheer risk/reward, and eats ROB alive with Flame Choke combos. Plus ROB is easy for Ganon to juggle given his size and floatiness, while ROB actually does a pretty poor job of juggling Ganon outside of his few throw combos.

I heard some arguments that ROB tries to keep people out with Gyro and lasers. Doesn't happen that way. Both come out slow enough to be powershielded on reaction in midrange. At most, Ganon does have to be more careful before committing to dashes in order to be in a position to powershield, but given he outranges ROB, and ROB doesn't exactly get frame traps from his projectiles in neutral, I would easily argue Ganon limits ROB's options more than the other way around. ROB's best options in neutral against Ganon are N-air, D-tilt, and Dashgrab. While these aren't bad, Ganon also has pretty huge range on his much more damaging D-tilt, N-air, and Dash Attack, and Flame Choke is hugely threatening against shields as well.

Neither character realistically should get edgeguarded that often in this matchup, though Ganon does better in this situation due to his raw KO power and superior fall speed letting him cover more options. ROB can only D-air spike Ganon if he DIs and reacts really poorly, otherwise his best option for edgeguarding is Gyro drop, which is situational to set up. None of ROB's aerials otherwise are very reliable for easily intercepting Ganon's Up-B due to being either too slow or not very reliable for hitting below him.

 

[Crome]

Ganon does like twice as much damage as ROB, actually outranges him thus beating ROB in neutral both in spacing options

eats ROB alive with Flame Choke combos.

Plus ROB is easy for Ganon to juggle given his size and floatiness, while ROB actually does a pretty poor job of juggling Ganon outside of his few throw combos.

Neither character realistically should get edgeguarded that often in this matchup

How does Ganon out range R.O.B in any respect? You're right, Ganon does do more %, but Ganon has to get in first to do that.

Does flame choke actually have combos, or do you just mean tech chases? I don't think you can actually follow up from flame choke, however I'm also inexperienced with Ganon. A tech chase isn't a combo, and affects all characters, not just R.O.B.

I don't see how Ganon>R.O.B in the air, at all. Ganon is way to slow to not airdodge, and is very susceptible to WoP. R.O.B and Ganon both have pretty good dairs, but the big difference is R.O.B can recover from the bottom blast zone with just his Up B, a luxury Ganon doesn't have. Ganon being off stage is a common situation, because he gets walled out so well. It is incredibly hard to reset to neutral with Ganon in this MU.

 

[A2ZOMG]

How does Ganon out range R.O.B in any respect? You're right, Ganon does do more %, but Ganon has to get in first to do that.

Does flame choke actually have combos, or do you just mean tech chases? I don't think you can actually follow up from flame choke, however I'm also inexperienced with Ganon. A tech chase isn't a combo, and affects all characters, not just R.O.B.

I don't see how Ganon>R.O.B in the air, at all. Ganon is way to slow to not airdodge, and is very susceptible to WoP. R.O.B and Ganon both have pretty good dairs, but the big difference is R.O.B can recover from the bottom blast zone with just his Up B, a luxury Ganon doesn't have. Ganon being off stage is a common situation, because he gets walled out so well. It is incredibly hard to reset to neutral with Ganon in this MU.

If ROB does not techroll, Ganondorf has Jab, F-tilt, and D-tilt on ROB guaranteed, and even if he does tech, this is readable for a followup Flame Choke. Also Ganon's D-tilt does outrange ROB's grounded moveset for the most part (didn't check F-smash. Don't care much about it either given it is super weak at long range). Aerials have similar range but Ganon's are both more damaging and better for juggle traps.

ROB has to respect both aerial wizkick and N-air as Ganon is landing, and he puts himself in a bad position if his aerial chases get airdodged, so he's generally speaking much easier for Ganon to land against than most characters due to his air chases being garbage (though I will concede, he has a good dashgrab to follow landings). Alternatively if there's enough space, ROB doesn't have a lot to really stop a ledge reset either given again, he's bad at chasing in the air to discourage this.

ROB wall of pain is percent and DI dependent, and I wouldn't really factor it much, given ROB doesn't really leave himself in a position to gimp Ganon as long as Ganon doesn't waste his jump unnecessarily. Also Ganon's edgeguarding isn't primarily about D-air. It's ALL his aerials, especially his N-air, U-air, and F-air which linger a bit and cover wide arcs. Now granted, ROB can wait out a lot of edgeguard attempts with his Up-B. However Ganon is one of the better characters at punishing ROB regardless when he reads where ROB is going to recover, as ROB cannot easily bypass Ganon's large aerials when going for the ledge.

As I was saying, Ganon's ground moves have better range and do more damage. Flame Choke is devastatingly powerful against him too, and Ganon has more consistent juggles than ROB. ROB also is one of the weaker characters at actually very easily taking advantage of Ganon's poor negative state because his air chases are horrible. Thus I believe the matchup is Ganon's favor.

 

[Crome]

I'm seriously questioning your experience with the MU. You aren't wrong, if R.O.B is playing rush down Ganon wins. But it is extremely hard for Ganon to even get up close, if the R.O.B has any idea what he is doing. What does Ganon possibly have on Gyro and Laser? Because that is 60% of the R.O.B neutral game. Ganon can't really deal with Gyro and Laser, besides power shielding. Ganon might be able to grab the Gyro, but then his best option is wizard kick, which is punishable.

R.O.B has very good aerials, I don't understand where "ROB doesn't have a lot to really stop a ledge reset either given again, he's bad at chasing in the air to discourage this." is coming from. I also don't understand why you brought up flame choke tech chases. While fun, they're just tech chases. You could say the same on nearly every MU. You read a tech get up and you're wrong, it either resets to neutral or you get punished. You seem to be underplaying R.O.B's options, by a lot.

 

[A2ZOMG]

When you say "lasers and Gyro are 60% of ROB's neutral game", that's where I question your matchup experience.

They're good tools when ROB has actually WON neutral. Now, even factoring shenanigans where you spam Gyro on someone's shield, it's not that great of a tool for neutral. What do you even get out of it if your opponent hasn't previously committed to something punishable? You haven't won neutral with it, and at best you simply forced your opponent to not commit to dashing. You still have to do something else to actually hit your opponent. This isn't just specific to the Ganon matchup, but ROB doesn't win neutral with projectiles. Now we have a slightly different story when ROB has space to set up item tossing, but this isn't always available in neutral for ROB.

Ganon doesn't need to exactly get close. He just needs to be in range to Dash Attack, and ROB's options are limited. At this range, the Gyro can be potentially caught and punished. Most of ROB's moves aside from F-smash and N-air are beaten by D-tilt directly, and a trade with Ganon's aerials isn't favorable either. Also Ganon's techchases do a lot of damage when he has options like aerials, Dash Attack, and F-smash, so him landing a Flame Choke is a pretty big deal, and keeping in mind that missing a tech automatically means you eat a 26% combo.

ROB may have good aerials, but his physics are some of the worst in the game for juggling and air trapping. When ROB is below me, I'm not afraid of what he can do when 90% of what ROB can do in the air gets screwed noticeably by airdodging except basically SH N-air, which isn't going to do much if I have enough space to drift towards the ledge and recover low. It also probably trades with aerial Wizkick, which he does not want to happen.

 

[Crome]

When you say "lasers and Gyro are 60% of ROB's neutral game", that's where I question your matchup experience.

Laser and Gyro are some of the first things you throw out in a game. R.O.B's MUs are hugely decided on how well the opposing character can deal with those projectiles, as they are almost always available and relatively fast options.

They're good tools when ROB has actually WON neutral. Now, even factoring shenanigans where you spam Gyro on someone's shield, it's not that great of a tool for neutral. What do you even get out of it if your opponent hasn't previously committed to something punishable? You haven't won neutral with it, and at best you simply forced your opponent to not commit to dashing. You still have to do something else to actually hit your opponent. This isn't just specific to the Ganon matchup, but ROB doesn't win neutral with projectiles. Now we have a slightly different story when ROB has space to set up item tossing, but this isn't always available in neutral for ROB.

What does Ganon have to deal with projectiles except for power shielding?

Ganon doesn't need to exactly get close. He just needs to be in range to Dash Attack, and ROB's options are limited. At this range, the Gyro can be potentially caught and punished. Most of ROB's moves aside from F-smash and N-air are beaten by D-tilt directly, and a trade with Ganon's aerials isn't favorable either. Also Ganon's techchases do a lot of damage when he has options like aerials, Dash Attack, and F-smash, so him landing a Flame Choke is a pretty big deal, and keeping in mind that missing a tech automatically means you eat a 26% combo.

Here you say Ganon doesn't need to get close, yet say Dtilt and DA are good tools against R.O.B. Both of those can be shielding and punished, if you can even get close enough to consider these options. Spacing DA to catch the Gyro and still hitting R.O.B is a neat tip, though.

R.O.B is also very proficient at tech chasing, Rotor, Laser, and Gyro can cover any option, if read.

ROB may have good aerials, but his physics are some of the worst in the game for juggling and air trapping. When ROB is below me, I'm not afraid of what he can do when 90% of what ROB can do in the air gets screwed noticeably by airdodging except basically SH N-air, which isn't going to do much if I have enough space to drift towards the ledge and recover low. It also probably trades with aerial Wizkick, which he does not want to happen.

R.O.B can cover air dodges better than Ganon can. If I get to a percent DT2UA can be airdodged out of, reading the AD is as easy as just waiting to do it. Fair also covers airdodges well, as it is really fast. Ganon's aerials are also laggier, so if you AD you can punish harder.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Laser and Gyro are some of the first things you throw out in a game. R.O.B's MUs are hugely decided on how well the opposing character can deal with those projectiles, as they are almost always available and relatively fast options.



What does Ganon have to deal with projectiles except for power shielding?



Here you say Ganon doesn't need to get close, yet say Dtilt and DA are good tools against R.O.B. Both of those can be shielding and punished, if you can even get close enough to consider these options. Spacing DA to catch the Gyro and still hitting R.O.B is a neat tip, though.

R.O.B is also very proficient at tech chasing, Rotor, Laser, and Gyro can cover any option, if read.



R.O.B can cover air dodges better than Ganon can. If I get to a percent DT2UA can be airdodged out of, reading the AD is as easy as just waiting to do it. Fair also covers airdodges well, as it is really fast. Ganon's aerials are also laggier, so if you AD you can punish harder.

Firstoff, why wouldn't you powershield ROB's projectiles? They're not fast at all. Their best applications are primarily as punishes and followups. At most, they sorta delay the opponent from getting close since carelessly committing to a dash animation can leave you open to them. But they're not fast by any means.

ROB only gets real mileage in neutral out of Gyro when he's holding it as an item. THAT's hard to react to. But it's also not always available unless ROB in the first place actually has space for it. +1 reason to use Burning Gyro obviously.

D-tilt requires a pretty hard read to punish on block, so Ganon can generally throw it out safely when he's in range to do it. Dash attack is punishable yes, but given the range and how many attacks it beats directly, not to mention the followup potential, it can't be disrespected. It also compliments Ganon's Flame Choke in midrange mixups for fairly obvious reasons. Ganon has to guess slightly more to space against ROB's N-air, though Ganon has a fast N-air that has good range and does 12% on the first hit, so in general I would say Ganon's midrange is more threatening given his range prevents him from being walled consistently, and the sheer damage difference is gamechanging. ROB actually does better than Ganon a little bit inside this range where his better grab range and faster D-tilt and F-air are kinda annoying, though fighting in this range primarily will happen as a result of previous punish situations mostly.

Now I'm not even sure why you brought up ROB's techchasing. Even though I'm aware he can sometimes create tech traps off some random hits for some situational combo potential, this in no way counters the fact that Ganon's Flame Choke followups are both highly damaging and can very directly lead to KOs, and that whenever ROB does not tech roll, he's vulnerable to Ganon's tilts.

ROB's D-throw is good, however again, he has to respect aerial Wizkick and N-air past the combo range, and due to ROB being floaty, he commits heavily whenever he jumps, meaning if his followup misses, he generally has trouble maintaining the advantage state. ROB's F-air would be pretty good for covering airdodges if it was on basically any other non-floaty character. In most other situations not involving ROB's D-throw, what I've said applies to most matchups. ROB's floatiness works largely against him for chasing characters in the air when he doesn't usually have the mobility to maintain pressure after committing to a jump. ROB's best ways of covering airdodge involve waiting for his opponent to be low enough to be pressured by N-air, or grabbing/lasering their landing, which granted these are fairly consistent and safe on-stage. Which is why I also brought up that ROB does a pretty bad job of pressuring offstage and preventing ledge resets, which can avoid ROB's land traps. From there it's a guessing game to cover the ledge getup, which ROB isn't exactly special at even if it's a moderately easier way for him to set up U-smash situationally, but overall this works to Ganon's advantage in mitigating his weaknesses to juggles significantly.

Now for all I know, I could be underrating ROB's momentum from Gyro setups, given not many players, myself included, are that good at abusing items. However outside of that, I worry significantly less about being gimped and juggled by ROB compared to most other characters, and Ganon is one of few characters that is able to outrange him. Many of the projectile characters aside from specifically Luigi, Sheik, Pikachu, and Gunner in my experience actually end up being easier for Ganon than several other matchups when the sheer damage difference and Ganon's strong midrange presence and positive state end up being overwhelming.

 

[Z1GMA]

ROB can zone us out really bad in this MU.
Spacing Vs ROB has to be very precise, as he beats us at Jab/Grab Range, as well as outside our Dtilt Range.
His Nair as a Zoning Tool is very safe vs Ganon - Ganon has to be spaced so he can PS it early to be able to punish it.
If he's using Nair to cover his landing, we sort of have to hit him before it comes out, or bait it out early to be able to punish it.
ROB is one of the stronger campers in the game, and Ganon is one of the slowest characters, so ROB gets to spend more time camping Vs Ganon than Vs many other characters -- free damage will happen.
Ganons are pround of their PSing Skills and it's a bit of bread and butter for us to approach with it, however, PSing (or shielding in general) the gyro is something you don't wanna do, except at very close range.
I recommend a simple roll towards ROB when he fires the gyro, or an Air Dodge-Pick Up.
ROB's Dthrow > Uair kills us at around 95%, even with perfect DI, and it beats out or aerial wizkick most of the time, which is stupid.

Ganon can rack up damage really quick in this MU when Rob's at a low %. Around 60% in mere seconds isn't uncommon via combos/tight strings/strong reads.
Ganon has really nice Flame Choke Shenanigans on Rob, thx to his poor Get up-options.
Rob does not gimp Ganon easily. That's just false. He kills us with Uair, Usmash, Bair, Uthrow.
If Rob's recovering low, he's in trouble, but it's not a garantueed spike/gimp for Ganon by any means.
If we Flame Choke you while we're holding the gyro, it's a free 33% true combo if you don't tech the choke.

In the end, Rob is just better at most ranges in the MUs, and can do a lot of stuff that is pretty damn safe Vs Ganon.
Rob does win the MU by a good margin, but one mistake, or a good Ganon Read, and it can cost Rob the match.

60 - 40

50 - 50 Customs ON

 

[PUK]

ROB has a definitively easier gameplan in this MU. His heavy weight allow him to screw up a couple of times and that's really good. He can gimp Ganon while avoiding Ganoncide and that's really good. He can follow the stage to recover to avoid stomps, but not stage spikes, or recover really high.
The only thing ROB has to do is respect Ganon. Do not throw random smash to close the stock, do not fish for the kill. The Uthrow nerf is a bless here, because you won't be temptated to do a dash grab when he's at 140% lol.

 

[Sykkamorre]

Now even with all of ROBs plus sides in this MU, I feel you guys are massively underestimating the 'dorfmeister.
Yes, your projectiles can bother us quite well and you have a few juggle options... But.

Damage output and kill power. If you land a hit, then we trade the next one and repeat like this, we will kill you first. Since dorf has few means of dealing with camping, all ganon's learn how to deal with it very early on. As a result, one we get close enough you are practically guaranteed to have 30% put on you and be in a position that is favourable to us, whether that be horizontally offstage or popped up above us. When coming down, I'm moderately sure none of your aerials can beat out our uair if we're below you. When offstage your only real option is to recover high due to our powerful edgeguarding.

I'm not going in-depth with your characters plus sides because I'm sure you guys know them already.
Honestly i'd say with and without customs, it's a 50-50 matchup.

Conclusion: Stop underestimating Ganondorf. It's a great way to get pounded.

 

[PUK]

Oh god i think ganondorf mains are crazy. And i play zelda so i know what i'm talking about.

 

[Syde7]

Will write up my notes today. I agree with some of the Ganondorf mains in that the MU isn't a ROFLSTOMP in ROBs favor. Its in his favor, but not by an incredibly large margin (I'll peg it at 60:40 ROB's favor vanilla; 55:54-50:50 ROBs favor with customs). If someone responds after me, notes will go in a new reply. If not, I'll edit this.

 

[Mister Eric]

Def ROBs favor imo. Don't have good notes yet tho.

ROB's favor? You gotta be kidding me. This is definitely one of Ganondorf's better matchups.

Matchup is 6/4 Ganon's favor, especially after the U-throw nerf. Ganon does like twice as much damage as ROB, actually outranges him thus beating ROB in neutral both in spacing options and sheer risk/reward, and eats ROB alive with Flame Choke combos. Plus ROB is easy for Ganon to juggle given his size and floatiness, while ROB actually does a pretty poor job of juggling Ganon outside of his few throw combos.

I heard some arguments that ROB tries to keep people out with Gyro and lasers. Doesn't happen that way. Both come out slow enough to be powershielded on reaction in midrange. At most, Ganon does have to be more careful before committing to dashes in order to be in a position to powershield, but given he outranges ROB, and ROB doesn't exactly get frame traps from his projectiles in neutral, I would easily argue Ganon limits ROB's options more than the other way around. ROB's best options in neutral against Ganon are N-air, D-tilt, and Dashgrab. While these aren't bad, Ganon also has pretty huge range on his much more damaging D-tilt, N-air, and Dash Attack, and Flame Choke is hugely threatening against shields as well.

Neither character realistically should get edgeguarded that often in this matchup, though Ganon does better in this situation due to his raw KO power and superior fall speed letting him cover more options. ROB can only D-air spike Ganon if he DIs and reacts really poorly, otherwise his best option for edgeguarding is Gyro drop, which is situational to set up. None of ROB's aerials otherwise are very reliable for easily intercepting Ganon's Up-B due to being either too slow or not very reliable for hitting below him.

We should wi-fi. You free tonight? Would like to learn this MU.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Def ROBs favor imo. Don't have good notes yet tho.



We should wi-fi. You free tonight? Would like to learn this MU.

Sometime next week would be more convenient once I'm out of school. You can pick the day and time as long as it's after the 13th. I'll take challenges from anyone for the most part, and I certainly would appreciate playing more ROB mains.

Or Saturday evening on the 9th is a possibility, though this depends on how much stuff I've gotten done by then.

 

[Syde7]

My Notes, and if the Ganondorfs that posted here @ Sykkamorre , @ A2ZOMG , @ Z1GMA could take a gander at it and let me know your thoughts, I would definitely appreciate it.

Notes:

• Biggest thing is to respect Ganondorf, his space, and his options. If you go into the MU vs. a competent Ganondorf who can bait, punish well, and make the occasional good read thinking you're going to flat-out walk them... you will get bopped. This is a fact.
• First, the big, macro-level stuff about Ganondorf (will be saying Ganon for short knowing full well Ganondrof =/= Ganon, being a massive LoZ fan... but bc its a bit of a hassle to type over and over). His damage racking potential is absurd off of a few hits. Ganon doesn't have a TON of combos, but his output per attack makes it so he doesn't necc. need him. As such, he can get ROB to 60% in a heartbeat from low % thanks to that damage output + some read dependent set-ups. 100% will follow not terribly long afterward (like... 5-6 hits later), which puts ROB in KO range.
  
• Ganon has a surprising amount of speed on his kit, its only the character's movement (ground speed, air speed, etc) and mobility that is slow/lackluster. This creates a kind of disconnect in people's mind... they think they have all the time in the world to just overwhelm a Ganondorf with their own kit w/o fear of contention. This is simply not the case.
• I feel that Ganon has an inherent advantage vs. most characters (in terms of something that he benefits from, not necc. an overall advantage in the MU) due to how Smash 4 works. With shielding and rolling being such safe options, many players will be conditioned to use these mechanics more than they need to, or as a panic button. This plays really well into characters like Ganondorf's (Bowser, DDD, Wario, Lucario, Diddy) gameplan(s).
  
• ROB is accustomed to taking that 40-60% from zero against a bunch of chars, but not many of them can KO as early as Ganon. While ROBs weight allows him to make a few more mistakes vs. Ganon than most chars vs Ganon, its still a significantly less number of mistakes ROB can make vs. most of the rest of the cast.
• IIRC, Ganon's dash attack can straight up power through a lot of stuff. I think this includes an uncharged, shot gyro; as well as some of ROB's aerials. This priority, plus its speed make it a great way of contesting ROB's advancing SH aerials, as well as closing the gap vs. ROBs retreating SH aerials.
• I agree that the neutral isn't won by gyro/lasers alone. That's a given in any MU. I concede that Ganon (and any char) can powershield, but its up to the ROB to do things to keep the projectile game fresh. Run-away -> turnaround full charge gyro; gyro charge->cancel into shield or roll; Run-away-> B-reversed laser (angled or not), etc etc. If the ROB just stands there and shoots one thing after the other without putting in effort to at least mixing something up, then yeah... stuff is gonna get powershielded on the reg. The thing that makes them beneficial in neutral is doing some stuff off of them. Gyro on the ground to limit what the Ganon can do, where he can go. Letting a Ganon shield stuff to put some more space between he and ROB. Confirming off of a gyro hit into some read-dependent one-two-getouttathere chip damage. The projectiles alone won't won neutral, and what ROB can do off of them is somewhat limited, but it helps the ROB win the neutral, regardless if the reward for it is only 10-12%.
• I feel that Ganon has a ton of options off a successful flame choke, but I'm not sure if all of these options can be selected based on reaction as opposed to reads. I'm some sure can, and I'm some sure can't. There's d-tilt, dash attack, another flamechoke, possible U-smash, grab, F-tilt, pivot tilt/smashes/grabs. Yes, these are viable options on their own, but coming off of a flame choke, it becomes a RPS where Ganon has more winning options, imo.
  • If ROB misses the tech on a flamechoke (which, I find the timing for it a bit difficult, especially if taken by surprise) the number of options increases due to ROB's dumbness while on the ground/getting up from the ground/rolling while on the ground, as well as the ease of selecting the best option.
• Ganon's U-smash serves as a great anti-air vs. poorly spaced approaches or rogue/unwise attacks on shield, or even risky landings. Also a great reward for guessing correctly on a flame-choke that puts ROB on a platform.
• Ganon's U-air is real. It comes out as fast as Cpt Falcon's U-air iirc, and we all know how solid of an option that is for that char (esp. vs. ROB). Its an exceptional edgeguaring tool for harassment, both forward facing & backward facing (The Tipman).
• Ganon's B-air is also legit. Again, it comes out as fast as Cpt. Falcon's iirc. Ganon gets similar utility out of it that a Falcon player does, with the added benefit of it being super strong. Expect a B-air to cover a landing, possible DJ mixups to B-air, as well as using it as an edgeguarding tool (both with ROB offstage, and ROB recovering from the ledge).
• Ganon's F-air is relatively quick, but imo is more suited to punishing an airdodge or ROB's up+B start-up, or even as a combo/string ender and covers a wide arc. I think it outranges our F-air (need confirmation), and comes out quicker than N-air with comparable range (please confirm that last statement someone, as Im not 100% sure).
• On the ground, I believe our boxing & poking game have similar ranges, with ROB's options coming out just a hair quicker. At these poking/boxing ranges, its really about optimal option select for both characters. But, I give the edge in this range to Ganondorf, actually due to having two options that beat shield (grab and flame choke) as well as an option that can cover rolls in any direction (depending slightly on player positioning prior to the roll) in the form of flame choke or a wizard's foot (really, pretty safe. If you guess right and are in the right range, you get a hit, if you guess completely wrong, you put some good space between yourself and the ROB and will at worst eat a laser or gyro shot for it. Its actually one of those options where you want to be 100% right, or 100% wrong, as being kinda right or kinda wrong wind up getting you punished pretty hard).
• ROB has a hard time getting down in this MU, as per the usual thanks to U-air threats & possible landing punishes with flame choke and wizards foot. I don't think Ganon really has the ground or aerial speed to easily (read: its not impossible, thanks to ROBs floatiness) stop ROB from landing providing ROB can actually put some distance between the two in the air.
• Ganon as a similarly tough time landing vs. ROB providing the ROB isn't stupid and greedy.
• ROB has the potential to OWN Ganon in the air when on the offense, as long as the ROB does not over commit by going on auto-pilot (as opposed to attempting to bait) or get super greedy. Doing so is a great way a D- or F-air / Wizard's Foot / Flame Choke to the face. I can't stress this enough.
• I don't see either character getting a straight out low % gimp if their opponent remains calm & patient, and doesn't burn a double jump (Ganon) or up+B at a bad time (ROB) or airdodge at a bad time. I do see Ganon getting an outright KO earlier off an edgeguard situation due to the KO power on his kit + ROB's limited recovery & ledge options, and I see ROB getting more "free(ish) damage building" off of edeguard situations. If the ROB player can net a low percent gimp through some excellent play or a forced error from Ganon... then the MU looks SO much better for ROB
• If ROB is forced to recover low... watch out. Ganon's D-air is a threat (and you have to be really tight with spacing and timing to beat it with U-air); and if you recover along the slope of the stage be prepared to tech the B-air. Conversely, if Ganondorf is recovering low, I recommend a jump off stage->turnaround gyro shot toward the stage or turn-around F-air (slightly more risky as if you play your hand too soon, Ganon can up+B the opposite direction and into you and get the launch from grabbing you), as B-air will come out too slow. ROB's spike attempts should be done ON stage, at the height where the D-air hitbox penetrates the stage lip.
• Also, if you've got a massive percent lead, but are on the same stock... please, just let the Ganon recover or harass him from the stage. Don't be a dumby and get Ganoncided.

TL;DR
ROB has to play SUPER smart, patient, and very safe. ROB can create opportunites, and can get a decent reward for them but he can't be greedy or overcommit, OR be predictable as Ganon needs just one or two solid reads or baits/punishes past 90-100% to close out a stock. ROB relies on zoning creatively, while safely. IMO, stay out of the air when w/in boxing/poking range. ROB has to rely on capitalizing on openings he creates through smart zoning and trickeration, as opposed to creating one via brute force.

I feel 2 stock matches benefit Ganondorf tremendously, whereas 3 stock matches benefit ROB.
60:40 to 55:45 (ROBs favor) in vanilla; dependent on stock count, definitely stage dependent.
50:50 to like 57:43 (ROBs favor) in customs on; dependent on stock count & stage.

 

[Mister Eric]

Sometime next week would be more convenient once I'm out of school. You can pick the day and time as long as it's after the 13th. I'll take challenges from anyone for the most part, and I certainly would appreciate playing more ROB mains.

Or Saturday evening on the 9th is a possibility, though this depends on how much stuff I've gotten done by then.

I'm free Saturday. You got a Skype ID I could add?

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm free Saturday. You got a Skype ID I could add?

I rarely ever use Skype though you can just look up "A2ZOMG" and add me, and I'll message you there how things are going that day.

 

[Z1GMA]

With Customs ON, the MU might actually be in Ganon's favour.
Our custom down+b 2 (Wizard Drop Kick) clashes with pretty much all your disjoited attacks -- but it doesn't stop there - it continues and hits you with hitbox #2, giving Ganon instant momentum.
Unlike our normal wizkick which gets canceled out or beat by you disjoints.
WDK even goes straight through your perfectly spaced NAir and hits you - that's how good it is.

 

[adom4]

With Customs ON, the MU might actually be in Ganon's favour.
Our custom down+b 2 (Wizard Drop Kick) clashes with pretty much all your disjoited attacks -- but it doesn't stop there - it continues and hits you with hitbox #2, giving Ganon instant momentum.
Unlike our normal wizkick which gets canceled out or beat by you disjoints.
WDK even goes straight through your perfectly spaced NAir and hits you - that's how good it is.

On the other hand R.O.B gets some good customs too, speed burner makes him much harder to edgeguard and slip Gyro is very good for set ups because of the trip.

 

[PUK]

And Back rotor can force you to come back without WDK, because you won't face the stage.

 

[Z1GMA]

And Back rotor can force you to come back without WDK, because you won't face the stage.

Does Back Rotor has as much endlag as his standard one? If so, we have enough time to B-reverse a Warlock Punch and then WDK. Preferably with our Warlock Burst, which is much quicker than WP.

 

[PUK]

oh no, it's as fast as our Ftilt in starting and ending lag more or less. An the hitbox is quite big. It's not our most popular custom, nowhere close to jank stuff, but i believe it has a lot of use if you give it a place in the gameplay.

 

[Jerbear9]

as a ganon main and rob second, the match will go to ganon if he plays correctly in neutral. as a2zomg said, rob's gyro and lasers each come out slow enough to react to at mid range. if the ganon reacts correctly there, then he's maybe 2 steps from being in range of rob w/ DA, choke, foot, and maybe his tilts. the rob in that period has time for to commit to a single decision in my experience and will take 30% bare minimum (likely 40+) if he's makes a wrong one.

the match-up plays to both players' strengths. robs like a slow rusher like ganon who has below avg recover and is vulnerable to the wall. any gyro tech chases are gonna go great for rob at that special range we all love and dorf's weight will let our throw combos work for ages.

however, every decent ganon is pretty good at shielding and likes a char w/ a slow, non-damaging, fairly predictable recovery. to top it off for dorf, starting at 0% he can choke>dtilt>choke>dtilt>uair for 62% at what appears to be guaranteed if no tech after spending 3 min in training (someone let me know about the uair, not convinced on it). ganon by far out classes rob in the air, but he does most anyways. to actually get gimped by the wall, i believe a rob would have to land at least 4, maybe 5, fairs all off stage on a good g-main.

if either char ends up having to recover from low, they are probably going to die because of gyro/every dorf aerial. a big factor for me though, if rob is above ganon for any reason except catching a flying gyro or is below him off-stage then he's in a really (really) bad spot. like i said at the start, i personally believe the MU lies entirely in the ganon's skill. if he doesn't mess much up, then he'll prob win with little problem but a couple mistakes will lead to a gyro hell that will end with a gimp.

without customs 45:55 dorf and while i'm not very familiar w/ rob's customs i'd guess that the ratio is the same since they can both become tricky to gimp. however, i think a strong argument exists for a 10 spread each way in both cases. (aka i have no idea on the final ratio but i'll pretend)

 

[Lizard_Buttock]

Yeah, it's an easy MU because of Ganon's awful long range game. Just sit back and camp him.

 

[jmanup85]

Yeah, it's an easy MU because of Ganon's awful long range game. Just sit back and camp him.

It's that mentality that will get you bopped. A good Ganon will get in on you eventually and you'd better play near perfect or he will make you suffer for any preconceived notions on the character. By design most Ganon players are going to be reading your habits while you try to camp us out (I'd assume you would be doing the same) and when we get in dash attack range the mindgames begin. It gets even worse when a Ganon player knows how to powershield and how to use items to his advantage. Just a heads up man, I think the MU is 55:45 in Rob's favor because he does have the projectiles, but it's most definitely not as easy as you make it seem. ROB is in no way, shape, or form even near Ganon's worst MU.

 

[GwJ]

It's that mentality that will get you bopped. A good Ganon will get in on you eventually and you'd better play near perfect or he will make you suffer for any preconceived notions on the character. By design most Ganon players are going to be reading your habits while you try to camp us out (I'd assume you would be doing the same) and when we get in dash attack range the mindgames begin. It gets even worse when a Ganon player knows how to powershield and how to use items to his advantage. Just a heads up man, I think the MU is 55:45 in Rob's favor because he does have the projectiles, but it's most definitely not as easy as you make it seem. ROB is in no way, shape, or form even near Ganon's worst MU.

I don't mean to sound condescending, but where's your data to support what you've been (and several others for certain parts of their thoughts) saying? A mentality makes a player win or lose, but the mentality has no impact on a theoretical discussion like this. By design, Ganon players are reading and punishing? Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but every character does that. Powershielding? Every character does that. What if ROB powershields all of Ganon's moves? 95:5 ROB (not serious).

It's fine to think that you have the mentality to win, but that's not going to get you anywhere when talking about the characters.

Let's pretend a good ROB and good Ganon are playing and the ROB gets overconfident and gets bopped. What impact does that have on the matchup? None.

 

[Crome]

I don't mean to sound condescending, but where's your data to support what you've been (and several others for certain parts of their thoughts) saying? A mentality makes a player win or lose, but the mentality has no impact on a theoretical discussion like this. By design, Ganon players are reading and punishing? Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but every character does that. Powershielding? Every character does that. What if ROB powershields all of Ganon's moves? 95:5 ROB (not serious).

It's fine to think that you have the mentality to win, but that's not going to get you anywhere when talking about the characters.

Let's pretend a good ROB and good Ganon are playing and the ROB gets overconfident and gets bopped. What impact does that have on the matchup? None.

Most of the arguments here are theory crafting from both sides, which is why I stopped participating.

 

[the king of murder]

I feel like Syde7 and Z1gma both made a nice summarization of the MU. Seems about right that way.

I don't mean to sound condescending, but where's your data to support what you've been (and several others for certain parts of their thoughts) saying? A mentality makes a player win or lose, but the mentality has no impact on a theoretical discussion like this. By design, Ganon players are reading and punishing? Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but every character does that. Powershielding? Every character does that. What if ROB powershields all of Ganon's moves? 95:5 ROB (not serious).

It's fine to think that you have the mentality to win, but that's not going to get you anywhere when talking about the characters.

Let's pretend a good ROB and good Ganon are playing and the ROB gets overconfident and gets bopped. What impact does that have on the matchup? None.

Very well then the only way to settle this is through battle. Let us cross blades and paint our bodies with blood.

I only have the 3DS available though so if you search for WiiU Ganons try someone like @ Opana or @Ray_Kalm. I believe they actually faced good ROBs before so they might be able to help with the MU.

 

[A2ZOMG]

From observation, it's actually difficult for ROB to KO Ganon with D-throw U-air for two reasons.

1. The range at where the combo works for KOing is HIGHLY rage dependent. Ganondorf can screw this up very easily for ROB due to his really massive followup damage potential.
2. Assuming ROB is at a low enough percent to do D-throw U-air, Ganon really doesn't die to it as early as ROB would like anyway.

While Ganon has difficulty landing, ROB also can't really disrespect aerial Wizkick either which is strong enough to challenge most juggle attacks.

I was watching OCEAN play ROB in some recent tournament games, and I can't even remember him using lasers. Mostly I don't feel I'm incorrect in stating that a lot of ROB's neutral game hinges on him finding an opportunity to hold his Gyro. That being said, he does things like turnaround Gyro (for pivot punishes), Gyro ledge traps (much better than edgeguarding 90% of the time), and item drop aerials with impressive consistency. As for the Ganon matchup, until ROB actually manages to hold his Gyro, I don't believe Ganon really fears him in neutral. He's annoyed slightly by N-air and D-tilt, but the damage difference and range on Ganon's attacks is too huge to ignore.

At a high level, I still believe Ganondorf has the advantage against ROB. Also, ROB's optimal playstyle for the record is not keepaway.

 

[Wintropy]

This entire thread has given me a lot of newfound respect for both characters.

Very interesting, I would not have thought Ganondorf to have any sort of advantage. Guess I need to play better Ganondorfs. Good job!

 

[A2ZOMG]

Well in Brawl, it was a really easy matchup for ROB when all you had to do to win that matchup was F-tilt and edgehog/edgetrap. Two things you can't rely on anymore as ROB.

 

[GwJ]

From observation, it's actually difficult for ROB to KO Ganon with D-throw U-air for two reasons.

That's not ROB's only kill string/move nor is it such an important one that it not being guaranteed makes this matchup worse.

1. The range at where the combo works for KOing is HIGHLY rage dependent. Ganondorf can screw this up very easily for ROB due to his really massive followup damage potential.

This is the case for basically every character. Also, ROB mains should not be scared of anything Ganon can do out of ROB's dthrow.

2. Assuming ROB is at a low enough percent to do D-throw U-air, Ganon really doesn't die to it as early as ROB would like anyway.

True, Ganon doesn't die at as early as plenty of other characters. However, I wouldn't say Ganon is so heavy that he's a terrible bother to kill either.He's also not that hard to gimp off the side.

While Ganon has difficulty landing, ROB also can't really disrespect aerial Wizkick either which is strong enough to challenge most juggle attacks.

You shouldn't disrespect any move. That doesn't mean I should be afraid of it though. Wizkick isn't a scary move in the air. I'd say it's scarier onstage and even then it's not very scary.

I was watching OCEAN play ROB in some recent tournament games, and I can't even remember him using lasers. Mostly I don't feel I'm incorrect in stating that a lot of ROB's neutral game hinges on him finding an opportunity to hold his Gyro. That being said, he does things like turnaround Gyro (for pivot punishes), Gyro ledge traps (much better than edgeguarding 90% of the time), and item drop aerials with impressive consistency. As for the Ganon matchup, until ROB actually manages to hold his Gyro, I don't believe Ganon really fears him in neutral. He's annoyed slightly by N-air and D-tilt, but the damage difference and range on Ganon's attacks is too huge to ignore.

I think gyro is better than the laser in this matchup, but ROB should definitely still be using the laser. Also, ROB doesn't need to be holding the gyro for it to be a threat. Gyro disappears on shield so you have to deal with a stupid amount of gyros if you're trying to approach (shielding is easier to deal with than catching even if I can throw another out). Ganon should fear ROB in neutral. ROB can zone Ganon for days and even when he gets close, Ganon doesn't have the kind of combo potential the higher tiers have. Further, ROB can still hold his own perfectly fine in close range. Jab is an extremely quick GTFO move as well as dtilts and dsmash.

At a high level, I still believe Ganondorf has the advantage against ROB. Also, ROB's optimal playstyle for the record is not keepaway.

Might I ask from the opinion of a Ganon main, what is ROB's optimal playstyle?

 

[Opana]

ROB doesn't want to engage Ganon up close, so ideally camping would be best against Ganon. Anyone that doesn't have to meet Ganon shouldn't. That being said, camping is not the end-all to Ganon mains, as much as you guys know how to camp we know how to deal with it(Provided both players are experienced.). My stance on ROB is similar to my stance on Duck Hunt, being that ROB/DH are pretty dominating onstage while we're pretty dominating offstage. Without customs I'd say ROB is pretty helpless offstage, as he can't really move fast enough to evade semi spike uairs. Obviously it is possible, but how I edge guard(I grab the ledge and drop/hop uair usually.) allows me to follow their path and swat them away repeatedly until their fuel depletes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zn1JuqI9McQ

An old video, but it shows what I mean although vs.a Ness but it applies here as well.

I have to go, but I'll write more later.

 

[GwJ]

I believe zoning Ganon is our best option in the matchup, but I don't think ROB necessarily loses in the close game either. ROB has quick getaway options, move strings to rack up damage and a whiffed move from Ganon can mean you're eating an OoS Usmash. Just like everyone's saying ROB shouldn't disrespect Ganon's moves, Ganon has plenty of moves he can't afford to disrespect either.

 

[GwJ]

If it means anything, I got this out of Vex just now:

 

[Xinc]

imo I just played several matches against a ROB and I need to say several things. Bear in mind this is pretty surface stuff and I can get more into detail about what I'm saying if you want me to reiterate or have any questions. I'm very open to feedback as well.

It's easily established that ROB vs Ganon is a zoning game. ROB can afford to play keep away while Ganon wants to approach and stay in. That alone is not grounds for saying that matchup is all of ROB's, just saying. Furthermore, Ganon is more reliant on reads and baits than ROB is, which adds that factor of what is the best option for Ganon in any given situation? So back to the point - what tools do each characters have?

Let's start with ROB who has his lasers and his gyro. Gyro controls center stage but upon hit on shield, it disappears (iirc). Ganon also should be power shielding and avoid the lasers. In my opinion, amongst one of the most annoying parts of the matchup. If ROB is holding a Gyro, then it's easier to keep Ganon out as well, since he can throw it if Ganon's too close and launch him back.

What can Ganon do? I admit, his options are limited, but they can work. Rush forward, power shield projectiles and bait mistakes is one option. Clashing with the gyro with neutral air should work as well (If I recall), and just block the laser is another. Dash attack is a key move- it provides a quick burst of speed and travels a good distance. It also has a hit box that lasts longer. A lot weaker but is strong enough to pop your opponent into the air, which can lead to Ganon's favor.

Say ROB isn't holding a gyro and Ganon gets in. Down tilt (though slower) has a longer reach, and forward tilt (pivot or not) outranges a majority of ROB's moves. Like most of Ganon's match ups, what he wants to do is to get Rob a bit above him, and that could be done with a down throw, down tilt (out of choke also works), dash attack, short hop up air, or first hit neutral air. That is grounds for up air juggles and tip man shenanigans, which can lead to further chaos, such as another Choke (at lower percents to mid- percentage depends on character, guarantee choke out of tip man) to forward tilt, which can send ROB off stage.

Similarly, ROB can also play the juggling game, though his Up Air received a nerf so it can't kill until later. He can also make life difficult with that weird forward air of his and that neutral air to stop Ganon. But he can't go in too deep or else he will eat a Wizard's Foot, which can either send ROB all the way down or all the way up depending on when the kick was initiated.

Hence, Ganon needs to play very precisely, but the matchup is nowhere as skewed as it looks. I can't really say the matchup either, but it seems close to even, (possible advantageous to Ganon as long as he doesn't choose FD lol). Both sides have a lot of options. Once Ganon gets in, ROB's main focus seems to be to force him out. But Ganon definitely appears to have a better advantage offstage.

Despite knowing Ganon's customs, I don't know ROB's and can't say anything in the matter. I'll have to revisit in a later date if it's still open.