R.O.B. Matchup Analysis #14 - Ness

[GwJ]

We are converting format from 1 matchup a week to 3 in order to get these done in a timely fashion. Please refer to the main thread if you have any questions or are confused.

http://smashboards.com/threads/r-o-b-matchup-thread-suggest-future-matchup-discussions.382714/

 

[PUK]

Learn to gimp him by clanking gyro/Nair with his pk thunder. That's his biggest weakness and you need to exploit it.
Don't shield too much, be patient. Ness loves to stay close to the ledge when you are at like 90% damage. The better is shield pressure with gyro: usually 6 in a row can break the shield, so it forces him to approach. DI up at High percent, and down at low percent. Fair look powerful but does pitiful damage so wait and dont burn your jump to avoid the string
2 cases:
ness spam pk fire: it's a FG scrub, just jump and do falling Nair or gyro.
Ness uses his good mobility, zone with Fair, does RAR back air: it's a good player and needs to be fear.
I never encountered a good ness but i beloeves they exists somewhere. And i think they would agree it's more in our favor.

 

[Crome]

Ness can combo us really well, his Fair destroys us and his Uair juggles us really well. His PSI Magnet heals a solid 10% or so from a fully charged laser. We're pretty big, so it takes a bit to get out of PK Fire. We also struggle a bit with PK Thunder spam

However, Gyro clanks with PK fire and Pk Thunder. Ness is very susceptible to DT2UA and gets killed a bit early from it. We can space him out so he can't grab us, limiting the use of his Bthrow. He's laughably gimpable, he's so limited in the middle of his recovery we can do almost anything and he can't fight back. Fair, Laser, Gyro, are all options that ruin a Ness' day.

I think it's 55:45 - 60:40 in R.O.B's favor.

 

[BoTastic!]

I hate this match up. I hope to get some insight from you guys. I feel like I end up getting comboed too often. And our punish game compared to his isn't good enough since if he gets a grab, he gets so much damage while I believe the Robo Hoo hah is escapable.

 

[Syde7]

I give this a 50:50, possibly 55:45... and I'd be ok with calling it in either char's favor at that ratio.

This is one of those MU's that if you're playing a "Run of the mill, slightly below average Ness" you can ROFLstomp him; but if you're playing a solid one who KNOWS what to do aside from D-throw to F-air at 0% and then fish for B-throw KOs, it can get ugly.

Some notes:

• His F-air is a great aerial all around - as an approach, follow-up, anti-approach, and defensive aerial. I find it really hard to do much against it due to its size and disjoint. Would love to hear input about what we have that beats it / best ways to deal with it.
• Neutral air is legit, especially out of shield as a "get off me move", as well as a solid KO aerial in an edgeguarding situation, particularly as we start our up+B
• We get stuck in PK fire longer than most chars.
• Ness has the ability to edgeguard us really well via harassment with PK thunder, F-airs, PK fire (to a much lesser extent) with solid KO options in the form of B-air and N-air.
• Backthrow...
  
• U-air juggles are real.

All that being said:
I've had success playing the poking game. At lower percents, its gonna be a toss-up bc we both can wreck one another pretty hard at the lower percents. I do find that DT->Uair seems to work a bit longer vs. Ness. Also, we're much stronger from below Ness than we are against some other chars; particularly directly below to about 45 degrees behind Ness.

Gyro is key in this MU, imo. It thwarts PK fire, can fux up Ness' recovery, help wall him out, help prevent grabs, etc etc. Once you get him off-stage, be quick and go for the gimp. Easier said than done, but if you can get one gimp at a decent percent (less than 80-90%) you're in great shape. Otherwise, if Ness gets a lead (esp. with you at higher percents) its gonna be dangerous... as he'll try his hardest to bait you into attacking shield, or doing something unsafe which will net him the grab.


I apologize for the lack of detail in this... more or less stream of consciousness writing... would love to hear additional input

 

[Crome]

I apologize for the lack of detail in this... more or less stream of consciousness writing... would love to hear additional input

Man, you shouldn't apologize for contributing. Your posts are very thought out and well spoken. A lot more of the nitty gritty detail than most posts.

I do agree with most everything you said, except I think we have an upper hand here. Ness' recovery is just too 1 dimensional and straightforward to not be gimped, and he's perfect combo weight/fall speed for us. Neutral is a bit campy, but we have enough options for stage control to get the advantage.


EDIT: Ness' Fsmash is a pretty good reflector too. We need to watch out for that.

 

[BoTastic!]

I don't think ROB wins this match up. Either that, or I find it incredibly taxing to play compared to other match ups.

I'd rather fight Sheik than Ness.

 

[Mister Eric]

This isn't much to offer but I'd like to quickly add my two pennies (more from me later when I have more time):

This is by far the most boring MU I've experienced so far. The MU seems very one-dimensional.
On your end you be like:
-SH nair
-gyro
-retreating fair
-If feeling dangerous, laser

Ness be like:
-Fair
-Roll
-PK fire
-Grab
-Grab
-Grab

That's the neutral game. I don't know who wins this. Maybe it's stupidly even. But those are my short and sweet thoughts on it.

p.s. get good at spiking his recovery.

-----
There's actually more to it, like @Syde7 demonstrated. But man, it sure doesn't feel like it sometimes. And ppl love Ness. I fight him so much...Zzzzz

I'd rather fight Sheik than Ness.

uSilly

 

[Jams.]

I think other users have covered this matchup very well, but I'll add some personal experiences. There's a good local Ness I play frequently, and he hates this matchup (for mostly the reasons Eric mentioned). He actually learned Sheik for this matchup (who I definitely would not rather fight QQ). Anyway:

• Powershielding PK Fire is very important and possible on reaction, and it's pretty laggy even if not powershielded. It's an easy dash grab if he's grounded, and a SH fair if he's in the air.
• Nair does wonders for me in this matchup. Ness doesn't seem to have tools to punish nair once it's out, so it's pretty safe to use pre-emptively in midrange. SH retreating nair is so safe.
  
• Fair is probably his most threatening aerial approach, but it's also mutlihit. If you throw out hitboxes and trade with Ness' fair, you'll come out on top.
• Gyro also works really well for me. There's a pretty large zone where Ness can't really punish gyro (barring grabbing it out of the air, which is pretty hard to do consistently).
• If you get hit by PK Fire, SDI away seems to be the best option most of the time.
• PSI Magnet is pretty bad, don't respect it. It takes a long time for him to absorb something in this game, and he can be punished for a successful PSI Magnet read. The only time I would respect this option is if you're trying to harass him with offstage laser.
• Be careful of overcommitting to a juggle. Airdodge->uair from Ness can be a huge killjoy. I would try to familiarize myself with the Ness' airdodge habits before committing to uairs.
• If he grabs you at lower percent, you're eating dthrow->2 or 3 fairs. I usually DI down and away, but it doesn't seem to do much. ROB's too big.
• If he's using PK Thunder to harass you, I respond differently depending on what he does. If he's drawing circles, I like to clank it with nair. If he send it straight towards you, you can usually airdodge through.
• Be careful when Ness is on the ledge. If you miss the neutral get-up punish, it's GG. Using gyro to cover neutral get-up is the safest option.
• The Ness I play with likes to double jump fair to cover his recovery and avoid PK Thunder. You can bait this out and punish with dash attack.
• Almost always challenge Ness' upb. I think other people have done a good job explaining ROB's options.

Overall, ROB's gameplan is to wall out Ness (which I think he does pretty well). Ness' gameplan is to get in on ROB and abuse his high damage low percent combos, higher damage on hit, and better kill power. I would say this matchup is 60:40 or 55:45 in ROB's favour. I'm leaning towards 55:45 because of the uthrow nerfs though. Ness isn't as good at avoiding grabs as some other characters, and letting him live an extra 20% is very dangerous.

 

[BoTastic!]

Eric, maybe because fighting Sheik is more fun, lol. Ness is slow methodical and lethargic while I'm always on my toes and moving around when facing Sheik.

 

[Mister Eric]

Eric, maybe because fighting Sheik is more fun, lol. Ness is slow methodical and lethargic while I'm always on my toes and moving around when facing Sheik.

I'm always on my a** when I fight Sheik

 

[MintyBreeze]

Very helpful advice, but I disagree about being able to jump over/gyro those fire pillars Ness can corner you with. I've found myself forced back to the edge by aerials from the former, and had the Ness simply throw the gyro, burning me up while I didn't have my down B option. The latter is probably the most reliable one out of these two, but I think I have a neat little tactic to use against them!

Don't forget that your Side-B can reflect projectiles in the first batch of frames! If a Ness doesn't expect it, (many people in general don't know that R.O.B can reflect projectiles) they can be quickly caught in their own combo set-up! Plus, that sixteen percent (perhaps it increases and gets faster after you reflect it?), coupled with whatever you decide to do after, could really shake up their play style and give you an edge... Theoretically.

Now, to be honest, I only did this once against a very zoney Ness player, and I doubt that it would work constantly, but even if they shield it, you're both probably at low percents anyways, so you'd probably have an approach opportunity. If I knew I was close enough, I'd continue the attack into the Ness, and probably heckle them with F-airs after (if I didn't suck at them.). Otherwise, you could retreat while going backwards with your side-B, and knock them back with your gyro. If anyone has tested this out already, or tries it, I'd love to see the results.

 

[ItsMeBrandon]

I don't know about the vs. matchup all that well, but as a Ness main I do know a bit about Ness' strengths and weaknesses, and what you might expect from a good Ness player.
As a disclaimer, I don't play competitively and the closest experience I've had is For Glory, so much of my knowledge is limited/possibly faulty.

has tricky projectiles, and I've played a few tough matches against one a number of months ago (one of the few times I played someone IRL and not on FG) who used his gyros and lasers well, so those are potentially an issue. As much as PSI Magnet can absorb the laser, I don't know about how safe it is to throw out. Keep in mind, though, that if we are successful with the magnet, we can "magnet cancel" and roll dodge immediately after, so we're not always helpless if we use it.

I will concede that has a subpar recovery, but I don't believe he's as "laughably gimpable" as you might think.

- PK Thunder will pierce anything for the first few frames it's out. Yes, you can just wait it out to stop it later, but if you mis-time it, Ness keeps his PKT and will at the least have the stalling time to recover.
- Ness can do a second PKT with the right timing if he hits the stage wall. It doesn't allow for that varied a mixup and you can probably react to it, but it's another option we have.
- Most good Ness players can avoid using their PKT and just double jump back. Our double jump goes pretty high, so it's not often an issue. To whoever said a double jump F-air can be baited with a dash attack, I imagine that's implying the Ness recovered above the ledge, which I don't think a lot of Nesses would do. We can recover below the edge, and sure, you can come down and edgeguard us, but we can throw out an N-air or air dodge. It's not foolproof, but it's a decent option for us.

Again, Ness' recovery is pretty subpar, but it really isn't so bad that most players can't get around it.

I'm pretty sure PK Fire is something good Ness players don't use that often. I would recommend a Ness player to only use PKF on the ground and not in the air anyway, unless they really know what they're doing. I don't know much more about using PKF though, most Ness mains seem to say to use it sparingly.

DI shouldn't be too much of a problem for Ness after a Down throw, assuming R.O.B. is at low percents. If we can't use F-air, we can use N-air or U-air instead, or at least those are options I sometimes go for. Also, there happens to be a thread on the Ness boards detailing kill percents for Ness' back throw, so it might be useful for you guys.

Right now we have a matchup chart thread where we're rating certain matchups. We haven't discussed R.O.B. very much yet, but we plan to for the next major discussion, I think. So far, it seems that some of us rate the MU as generally even at the worst for us.

I apologize if any of this information is faulty or doesn't apply to R.O.B.; this is just what I know about Ness in general, and not the MU itself.

 

[MintyBreeze]

Right now we have a matchup chart thread where we're rating certain matchups. We haven't discussed R.O.B. very much yet, but we plan to for the next major discussion, I think. So far, it seems that some of us rate the MU as generally even at the worst for us.

I'm starting to appreciate how much more complex some of these fights can be than you would think... I think I liked the structure we had in the Ganondorf MU, where members of each form discussed pros and cons each character could bring to the fight.

Brandon, how did that particular R.O.B player 1) generally try to keep you off stage, either by gimping, or annoyances, and 2) score most of his kills? Vice versa for you against the R.O.B?

 

[Noa.]

There are not a lot of good ROB players generally speaking. This means that most people have not played against a competent ROB and that their opinions of the matchup could be skewed. I don't expect most players on the Ness board have played against good ROBs.

In Florida the only decent ROB player is 8bit. I have never gotten the chance to play against 8bit unfortunately.

I have played against other ROBs but they were all significantly worse than me. I can't see how Ness loses this matchup.

ROB makes it difficult for characters to approach him with a combination of his gyro and laser. ROB tosses a gyro on the floor and it forces characters to jump over it, which can be difficult for some characters, but forcing Ness to shorthop or full hop over the gyro doesn't put him in such a bad position. We have so many fast aerials and nair has so little end lag that it's difficult to exploit Ness when he jumps.

Laser is usually effective for catching characters as they jump or land, but PSI magnet gives Ness an option to deal with laser while he's in the air. Normal laser heals for 8% and charged laser heals for 27%. Those are pretty big deterrents to using laser against Ness. Obviously still a nice tool against Ness, but ROB has to be careful.

I don't know how the rest of ROB's tools fare against Ness. I know ROB's sh nair is great, and I'm sure ROB has decent tilts that work well in neutral. But I don't know whether or not it's difficult for Ness to fight them.

ROB is not mega threatening offstage for Ness. If Ness uses pk thunder, he is usually dead against any character he's playing against. A character is good at gimping Ness if they are good at hitting him or pressuring him out of his double jump. I do not feel like ROB fulfills that. Characters that are scary for Ness to recover against are Sheik and Falcon. They both have very great aerial mobility, and have wonderful frame data on their aerials that allow them to bait an airdodge from Ness and then hit him afterward. ROB doesn't really have the aerial mobility to do that on a consistent basis. I'm not saying that ROB will never gimp a good Ness. I'm just saying that it won't happen often, and that he doesn't do particularly well against Ness compared to other more threatening characters.

I don't have a very strong opinion on this matchup because I have such limited experience. But I will say that I would lean towards an advantage for Ness, and most Ness mains probably feel the same way. ROB has a pretty poor disadvantaged state, and Ness is very potent at exploiting that with PK thunder, PK Fire, and fthrow.

But I'm just here to share my opinion.

 

[MintyBreeze]

@ Noa. , before anything else, thanks for coming over to share your thoughts. I'm not particularly experienced with fighting Ness either, to be honest, and only experienced his f-air as regular attacks. I'm not qualified to give my thoughts on the match-up, then, except from the little bit that I do know.

"I have played against other ROBs but they were all significantly worse than me. I can't see how Ness loses this matchup."

I'll admit that I haven't fought a decent Ness either... So all of this going forward is up to critique. But I feel like if that's the case, then both of our judgments are

R.O.B's n-air is usually used to space against other opponent's aerials; Personally, I think it's as useful as our gyro. I'm not sure of Ness' range, however, with the one I fought I was able to keep my distance from their aerials fairly well with the attack. Because it can be guided while still attacking, I think we have at least one tool to challenge Ness in the air, but from my experience and just playing around with his moves, I can tell that Ness would be very quick to punish us. It does seem that only the f-air has comparable range to ours, where our aerial attacks have longer range, but that f-air, I'm tempted to say, almost makes up for it.

I could see gyros hurting the PSI Magnet, but overall, it's probably better than a reflect for Ness. (heheh) R.O.B does have a situational way to approach with his Side-B, which can deflect projectiles. I'd say that a lot of players in general don't expect it, and against a recovering enemy who doesn't expect it/can't do anything about it, it can be useful for killing at high %s. Overall, I think R.O.B can do a decent job at keeping Ness out of range, but if he gets caught by a stray attack, if he forgets to not get greedy in trying to attack Ness, I see it being very easy for them to get juggled in the air. PK Thunder is my biggest nuisance once I'm stuck up there...

I didn't know that PK Thunder wasn't his only way of recovering! Granted, it makes sense, but Ness having higher jumps would contribute to make him better in the air, right? I think? e-e

On a thread about the Ganon MU, we discovered that even HE could potentially get in past R.O.B's defenses. Granted, he's a very special character, but if someone as slow as him has a chance to get past R.O.B's wall? I think Ness, if he can get in, trap R.O.B, and get him near the edge, (which is what happened to me against a few) he has a much better chance of KOing us. If he can get us at those low percents, past our projectiles, we have a much lower chance of winning the game. However, on the ground, Ness only really has two things to help his approach; PK Fire, and his dash attack. Granted, that dash attack is awesome, but I don't think Ness' approach on the ground would be strong enough. Maybe it doesn't need to be.

So, generally... Because of my lack of experience, I'll admit that a lot of this is theoretical. Maybe Ness has an uber-move that I've forgotten that tips the tide in his favor, or I've disregarded an important move that would shift the balance toward R.O.B. So, instead, I think we should either tell each other what each of the few MUs we've had went like, instead, since we can't decide on a complete strategy, or grab someone more knowledgeable in the match-up. Either way, thank you for responding!

 

[ItsMeBrandon]

I'm starting to appreciate how much more complex some of these fights can be than you would think... I think I liked the structure we had in the Ganondorf MU, where members of each form discussed pros and cons each character could bring to the fight.

Brandon, how did that particular R.O.B player 1) generally try to keep you off stage, either by gimping, or annoyances, and 2) score most of his kills? Vice versa for you against the R.O.B?

I wish I could remember how those matches with R.O.B. went, but they were as early as October, when only the 3DS version was out. At that point I had little knowledge on what Ness' strengths and weaknesses were, and given I don't play competitively, I got smoked by the other guy's R.O.B.

That said, all I can remember is that I had trouble dealing with this R.O.B.'s gyros and laser. He used the laser at different angles and mixed in a constant gyro throwing to keep me out. I don't think I remember getting any KOs off him, to be honest. I think I might be better now, but I haven't played a single R.O.B. since, so I can't give any more valuable input. (Plus, they were friendlies to the point we were including non-viable stages. In one match, we played on 3D Land.)

And also, if I can clear up a bit of a misconception, I said that "some of us rate the MU as generally even at the worst for us." In other words, we mostly think the MU is 50:50 at worst, either because we simply don't have much experience with R.O.B. as Noa. said, and/or because we don't see R.O.B. as a huge threat. The worst rating for this MU I've seen on the Ness boards were 47:53 in R.O.B.'s favor.

I just wanted to say that because I think you might've interpreted that we thought it was difficult, and that's not what I meant to say. Sorry for the confusion. Most of us probably agree that this MU is pretty close to neutral and not greatly advantageous for either side, though again I don't have enough experience to say for myself.

 

[MintyBreeze]

@ ItsMeBrandon As for the R.O.B match, I can see that... I didn't think that you wouldn't have had time to adapt yet. >-< Mixing the two up is probably one of the best things a R.O.B can do to keep his opponent away. Oh, I so wish there was a version of FG with non-flat stages...

Oooooh, okay, okay, that makes sense too! I'll go on and edit my post about that on the Ness boards, then, sorry for the misinformation! Hey, do you think we could share 3DS friend codes? I'd love to play against someone who seems to have an active interest in the game.

 

[ItsMeBrandon]

Well, I wouldn't mind sharing 3DS friend codes, although I don't consider myself a competitive player, so I don't know what much would be gained. But I think it'd be fun to play against another person, particularly someone who mains a specific character. And why not, to learn more about this matchup, if nothing else?

I'll PM you my friend code and we can talk over that, instead of in this thread.

 

[MintyBreeze]

Well, I figure that the fun factor is the reason you'd do something like this in the first place! I like interaction with the community and all that. Encourages a good atmosphere.

 

[Meccs]

A ROB that can zone well with his projectiles is a nightmare for me. Ness combos ROB very well once he's close, but a good ROB can make it a huge pain for Ness to get that close in the first place. I think the biggest factor in a Ness-ROB match is going to be how skilled the ROB is at using the Gyro and Laser to wall out Ness and prevent his approach. ROB wants to keep that medium distance and rack up damage with his projectiles, and really only get close for grabs or once Ness is at KO%. Not that ROB can't go on the attack against Ness, but I think if you want to play the matchup optimally you're going to want to play that safe medium-distance zoning game.

 

[MintyBreeze]

In this case, that seems to be the best option, but I don't know man... Ness does have a few tools to pressure us back, damage-wise or not. That PSI shield keeps us from spamming lasers, he can approach with his regular shield to counter our gyros, too... I played against a Ness from the boards a little while ago, but since I didn't try and zone them out, (or at least failed at doing so) I'm not sure exactly how effective it is. Just let me tell you, I still think N-air is still seriously our third best option for closing that gap between us, or keeping it wide open. Against Ness, R.O.B's options are as limited as his opponent's! He makes me feel very predictable, something that R.O.B should never be.

 

[Lizard_Buttock]

Why is this discussion suddenly coming back?
As somebody with experience as both Ness and ROB, I think it's not a bad MU for either of them. They both have significant advantages over the other, and weaknesses to each other.. 50/50, I think.
Ness' aerials are damaging and very safe, especially his Fair and Nair, which are both incredibly fast and damaging, while ROB's fastest aerial is Fair, which isn't very good for avoiding combos. He can also counter our lasers, but that can be baited to get in a few good hits. And of course, Ness' grabs are insane. While ROB isn't necessarily weak against grabs, and they're one of the later back throw kills (131%, which is respectable), Ness' throws are still pretty good, and dthrow combos are a big weakness of ROB's, thanks to his weight and fall speed.
However, ROB's main advantage is his incredible long range game. While lasers are weaker against Ness than most characters thanks to PSI magnet, he's still weak to gyros. Ness' approach is also quite predictable, and he lacks a good projectile at longer ranges, so it's very easy for ROB to camp him out with gyros. I believe Nair also outranges most of Ness's moves, meaning it's quite safe to keep him away from you with it. Most of Ness' ground attacks are sub-par in terms of damage, and I personally think ROB's are better (although not by much) just because they aid with zoning better and have higher range. Due to Ness' tendency to stay in the air, he's weak to our two best KO options, Uair and Usmash, which are both amazing anti-air moves that kill early. Ness' small hurtbox means we can't Usmash kill him on the ground, which is unfortunate, but not exactly unexpected. It's also quite easy to gimp ness' recovery - not with Dair, which can be unsafe if the angle of PKT2 is high enough or the move just goes out then, but with Bair, Uair and Nair. There's also very little chance of not recovering while edgeguarding Ness as long as PKT2 doesn't hit, thanks to the incredible height on ROB's Up-B (seriously, I think it's potentially the highest in the game).
Overall, Ness can cause some huge issues with ROB, as is expected for a high-tier character, but we can cause some big issues with Ness, so in that regard, we're even. It's also one of the better MUs from a middle/high tier character. It's also a very fun MU overall, IMO, and some of my favourite matches have been against Ness.

 

[MintyBreeze]

@ Lizard_Buttock , the thread has gone on so someone like you could come to give great insight into the MU! Also, I felt like since someone was nice enough to come over from the Ness boards to consult us, that it might as well be continued. Look at the Ganondorf MU thread. Most of everyone (in the R.O.B boards, anyways) originally thought that it was completely in R.O.B's favor, until a discussion happened with mains of the other character. Even if the MU is even and our opinions don't change as drastically as happened there, it helps everyone to dig a little deeper, especially since not a lot of people have proper experience with this MU in the first place. It helps to interact with the other boards, too, because indirectly it helps fuel the progress of the game.

Now, maybe it doesn't necessarily need to be continued here, but I think this should be updated for when the Ness boards start their R.O.B discussion. It may not be a particularly pressing MU for either of us, but at least it'll give each of us insight into the other character.