Questions from Evo Staff

[trag]

Hello everyone. This is trag/tragic from SRK / Dustloop / Tekken Zaibatsu. I've been a part of the EVO staff for 10 years, and though EVO 2K7 has just finished, a few questions / concerns have been brought up about Brawl.

First of all, the Smash finals were great. Excellent play, and Scamp did a fine job commentating for his very first attempt. I believe that if Brawl is included in our lineup next year, it will most-likely be the largest turnout every for any game. I can't wait.

So anyway...

I'm here to ask you all what your thoughts are on control and time (length of matches).

In regards to controls, wireless is definitely going to pose a problem. When speaking with the other staff, one of the suggestions was to require either GC controller (which I assume many of you will be using) and Nintendo Classic controller. Both of these are wired obviously, and would eliminate any wireless problems. However, do you think any serious players will be using the WiiMote or the Wiimote/Nunchaku combo seriously? If so, this could be a big problem.

Generally, most players at Evo use aftermarket sticks (for all other games besides Smash and Tekken/SC - whom use 1st party pads). Though the GC and Classic Controllers are first party, they require you to purchase something additional to play and eliminate the default controller that the Wii comes with.

Do you see this as a big problem?

Secondly, the time issue. 4 stock is simply too long. While Smash was a great tournament and a great finals at Evo this year, 4 stock proved to take far too long. The idea for next year would be to bump it down to 3 stock, but retain 2/3 games per match throughout the entire tournament. Would this be a big problem?

Any and all other rules would most likely be lifted directly from SmashBoards and the Smash Community (in relation to items and stages and such).

Thanks for your time. Hope to see you all next year, if Brawl is in the lineup.

- trag

 

[Exorcist]

It's nice if you guys are thinking ahead, but really time will tell.

We'll all just have to wait and see until the game comes out to tell anything about controls or if matches will take as long.

 

[Star105]

ehh........ what?

never mind i don't want to know

this seems like it belongs in the melee section...... at least half of it

though u could let the players choose their own controller and tell them to accept losses and not blame the controlers that they chose to use.....?

oh well i really don't know this thread seems legit but i can't be sure (sry if it is)

 

[trag]

Well, the reason I'm asking now is because I'm wondering if things like 3 stock (but 2/3 games per match) would be some kind of massive blow to the community. Of course, in regards to controls, that's something we will have to wait on.

- trag

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I believe that the standard 4 stock single elimination for the first (or first two) bracket(s)should speed things up. You can do that depending on how many brackets you have.

The single Wiimote and Nunchaku combo may be used, but I think you should wait until Brawl is released and do some experiments.

 

[FlatSoda]

I say wait til brawl gameplay to determine whether 4 stock is way too long.

 

[Knifey McStab]

the classic controller is supposed to be connected to a wiimote so that is also a problem because the wiimote is wireless.

 

[Star105]

Well, the reason I'm asking now is because I'm wondering if things like 3 stock (but 2/3 games per match) would be some kind of massive blow to the community. Of course, in regards to controls, that's something we will have to wait on.

- trag

i don't think so but really try pitching the ideas to the people who turn up at tournements or just try it once and see where it goes since some people will love it and some people will hate it "only time will tell".

also the controller thing u could also just have the GC controller as the only usable controller since u can change it determined by names in Brawl.

 

[Exorcist]

I believe that the standard 4 stock single elimination for the first (or first two) bracket(s)should speed things up. You can do that depending on how many brackets you have.

The single Wiimote and Nunchaku combo may be used, but I think you should wait until Brawl is released and do some experiments.

I'd have to disagree with you there, dude.
Single elimination in other fighting games is great, but Smash is a game where levels make a severe difference for some characters(yes even Final D.).

In my opinion to weed out people in the first bracket in brawl we should have a best-two-out-of-three but with 2 or three stocks. But yea... that wouldn't really solve the time problem as well would it

 

[trag]

Ahh good point. I haven't used my Classic Controller yet... and after being reminded that it plugs into the Wiimote, I see the problem. Another wireless option =/.

 

[Mic_128]

There is no lag from Wavebirds. There is no lag from Wiimotes. There shouldn't be any issue with laggy controllers except from those with very low batteries and people calling Johns.

 

[bluebomber22]

yeah like everyone said, we'll just have to wait and see before tourney rules become more appearant. I dont recommend banning controllers unless there are some cheating issues involved. Just tell people to make sure they have charged batteries and penalize them if they dont....

 

[Kirby King]

There is no lag from Wavebirds. There is no lag from Wiimotes. There shouldn't be any issue with laggy controllers except from those with very low batteries and people calling Johns.

I think the main concern about wireless is interference between controllers and other wireless devices that might be around. If your battery dies on you during a match or there's some lag between your input and whatever action, that's either something you can control directly or an inherent issue with the technology that you accept when you learn the input method. If we're talking about interference that would probably only happen at a tourney with an ungodly number of identical wireless controllers, though, that's something that you really can't control and is a specific issue that would come up almost exclusively in a tournament setting.

 

[trag]

Yeah, the main concern isnt lag or battery, it's just the wireless interface. With 10 or 20 Wii's in the room, that's a lot of wireless Wiimotes. Syncing may be an incredible pain... then again, it may not.

 

[Knifey McStab]

Yeah, the main concern isnt lag or battery, it's just the wireless interface. With 10 or 20 Wii's in the room, that's a lot of wireless Wiimotes. Syncing may be an incredible pain... then again, it may not.

i think most will just use a cube controller. however there will be those that will use the wiimote or classic controller. the only time you'll run into problems with that is if there are multiple wii's syncing at the same time because a controller could sync to the wrong wii. but in terms of interference, at gaming conventions where there are multiple wii's up, no problems arose. however, those were set up preshow...some people might john if they get a preset controller saying something like the control stick is unresponsive or the wiimote is broken or something

 

[TheManaLord]

Three stock wouldn't be bad at all IMO. And Classic Controllers are WIRELESS as well. So that leaves only Gamecube controllers. Which of course would isolate many new players who use the new interfaces as opposed to old players who stick with the GC controller.

 

[Inkslinger]

ok, so reducing this from 4 to 3 might not be a big deal, i personally wouldn't mind. Perhaps the stocks should only be 4 when entering the finals.

As for the controllers, even though there are many options, in tournament play it's all going to boil down to one at the end (the one that proves to be more effective)and that's most likely the standard GC controller.

I would also like to note that I think this belong in the tournament section, because most ppl who browse the brawl forums aren't that interested in tournament play.

 

[MookieRah]

@Trag
3 stock 2/3 double elimination isn't that major of a blow. If I recall correctly that was a standard setup for a while. Either way, 3 stock double elim is infinitely better than 4 stock single elim.

 

[Inkslinger]

Yes, now, single elim will be a heavy blow for the community.

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

Both of these questions could use as many viewpoints from the competitive community as possible, but... this board isn't really the best place to get that. It's a bit of a cesspool for the millions of casual SSB fans who will play Brawl for a year or two with friends, then only touch it occasionally. Most of the people that this would actually effect, or who could have informed opinions about it, stick to the regional and tournament discussion boards. But, topicality-wise there's not really a better place for the topic, so I don't know how you'd get it more exposure >_> Sorry.

Anyway, the 4 stock/8 min time limit standard for Melee tournaments is just what eventually was settled on for Melee; it proved to be long enough to prevent flukes, but short enough to keep matches interesting. Brawl might play completely differently, so we'll just have to see whether 4 stock in Brawl last for less time, or if decreasing the stock amount still allows for fair matches.

As for controllers, I'm not sure how much wireless interference makes a difference (maybe someone could try having as many wiis + wiimotes going at once, and see how it effects other games?), but I could see having to sync your Wiimote every time you changed stations being a big problem for time constraints. Most people will probably stick with the standard wired GC controllers, but hopefully the rules don't have to ban the other options.

 

[Inkslinger]

I think this fits in perfectly in the tournament discussion. I will also say that we shouldn't make decisions just yet. From the looks of it, it looks like in brawl, cheap kills will be a lot harder and stocks will take longer to take (not to mention the reduced speed). So it looks like 3 will be fine for brawl.

 

[Overswarm]

Hello everyone. This is trag/tragic from SRK / Dustloop / Tekken Zaibatsu. I've been a part of the EVO staff for 10 years, and though EVO 2K7 has just finished, a few questions / concerns have been brought up about Brawl.

First of all, the Smash finals were great. Excellent play, and Scamp did a fine job commentating for his very first attempt. I believe that if Brawl is included in our lineup next year, it will most-likely be the largest turnout every for any game. I can't wait.

So anyway...

I'm here to ask you all what your thoughts are on control and time (length of matches).

In regards to controls, wireless is definitely going to pose a problem. When speaking with the other staff, one of the suggestions was to require either GC controller (which I assume many of you will be using) and Nintendo Classic controller. Both of these are wired obviously, and would eliminate any wireless problems. However, do you think any serious players will be using the WiiMote or the Wiimote/Nunchaku combo seriously? If so, this could be a big problem.

Generally, most players at Evo use aftermarket sticks (for all other games besides Smash and Tekken/SC - whom use 1st party pads). Though the GC and Classic Controllers are first party, they require you to purchase something additional to play and eliminate the default controller that the Wii comes with.

Do you see this as a big problem?

Secondly, the time issue. 4 stock is simply too long. While Smash was a great tournament and a great finals at Evo this year, 4 stock proved to take far too long. The idea for next year would be to bump it down to 3 stock, but retain 2/3 games per match throughout the entire tournament. Would this be a big problem?

Any and all other rules would most likely be lifted directly from SmashBoards and the Smash Community (in relation to items and stages and such).

Thanks for your time. Hope to see you all next year, if Brawl is in the lineup.

- trag

There shouldn't be an issue with wireless controllers as long as they aren't Wavebirds (which have only 16 channels). Wiimotes, when synched iwth a system, work for that system and that system only. You can test it by putting two Wiis up next to each other and synching controllers to both of them; they won't affect the other console's performance at all.

However, requiring a GC controller won't be that big of a deal. Just about everyone that would go to a tournament uses them anyway.


As for bringing it down to 3 stock, that would tremendously affect results. With 4 stock, you have the ability to come back from a defecit; with 3 it becomes nigh impossible unless your opponent royally screws up.

In essence, one gimp would win a match.

It would be the equivalent of somehow using only 2 characters in Marvel vs. Capcom, or bringing your health down to half in Street Fighter to save time.


If you want to lower the time limit, you have only a few options:

1. Lower the time limit on the actual game

This would almost certainly require you to have a different stage list (so character's like Fox couldn't run and camp once they got a stock), and many matches would end due to time. This isn't something people would want, but I think once they realized time was an issue they would become more aggressive and the gameplay would speed up. It would be much sloppier and less refined and stable than normal melee, but it still puts the power of the match in the hands of both players at all times.

2. Start much earlier.

Simply starting earlier to make up time could be an option, although you might not like it.

3. Make earlier rounds single elimination

This doesn't mean win one game and move on, as that is about as intelligent as giving the world series to the team who hits the first home run, but make it 2/3 and then loser out, winner move on.

You could start double elimination after a certain point.

This would be better ONLY if you got the brackets right. If you ended up putting Mew2King and PC Chris on the same side of the bracket and they fought during the "single elimination" rounds, then you've just ruined a tournament.

Very dangerous.




But, this is all for Melee. We don't know how Brawl plays; it may be that everyone has a much better recovery / harder time getting gimped or that people die much faster. So who knows?

 

[Phyvo]

Both of these questions could use as many viewpoints from the competitive community as possible, but... this board isn't really the best place to get that. It's a bit of a cesspool for the millions of casual SSB fans who will play Brawl for a year or two with friends, then only touch it occasionally. Most of the people that this would actually effect, or who could have informed opinions about it, stick to the regional and tournament discussion boards..

As many casual players as we might have interested in Brawl let's not start name-calling here. It is not a "cesspool", it is just not as "hardcore" as would be ideal for the sort of discussion within this thread. By no means, however, does that prevent a productive discussion, as can be shown by what's in the thread already. Several good points have already been made which I, a fairly casual player, thought were good.

As for my two cents, I agree that allowing only gamecube controllers (since the classic controller is wireless too) would alienate too many new players. Besides, in a while all existing gamecube controllers will be too button mashed for anyone to use, and then you're stuck with wireless. You might as well find a solution (if there is really a problem) now rather than later.

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

As many casual players as we might have interested in Brawl let's not start name-calling here. It is not a "cesspool", it is just not as "hardcore" as would be ideal for the sort of discussion within this thread. By no means, however, does that prevent a productive discussion, as can be shown by what's in the thread already. Several good points have already been made which I, a fairly casual player, thought were good.

When a board has to have 10+ spam topics a day closed, it's (relatively for smashboards) a cesspool. Calling a duck a duck =/= name-calling. And it doesn't prevent a productive discussion, but it does limit it. Most of the good posts so far have been made by tournament players who browse the Brawl boards for whatever reason anyway, or who happened to see this topic title from the main page.

 

[Handorin]

Ive been to several tournaments where the pools used 3stocks instead of 4, but the bracket was 4stock. I didnt really mind having 3stocks, but Overswarm was right about the gimping. EVO could possibly just lower the stock for part of the bracket and once it gets down to semi-semi-finals or something, just move it back to four.

Again, Brawl will be different and we will just have to wait and play around with it. The same thing happened with Melee.

 

[AltF4]

About Wireless Controllers:

- It was mentioned before, but GameCube controllers are the only wired way to play brawl. The VC controller still uses the Wii-mote's wireless.

There shouldn't be an issue with wireless controllers as long as they aren't Wavebirds (which have only 16 channels). Wiimotes, when synched iwth a system, work for that system and that system only. You can test it by putting two Wiis up next to each other and synching controllers to both of them; they won't affect the other console's performance at all.

That's not true. Wii-motes will interfere with each other. It's not that big of an issue with 2 Wii's. Probably not even 4. But with an entire tournament with 200+ people, there will be heavy interference. Nintendo did not build the Wii with this kind of competitive environment in mind.

you'd be surprised by the kinds of things you can get interference from. It happens all the time. Cordless phones, microwave ovens, etc...

About 3 stock matches: Look at MLG. Halo matches take friggin' forever compared to any fighting game, yet they manage to get the whole 1000+ person tournament done in a reasonable amount of time. It's all about having lots of stations and using them fully.

 

[trag]

Excellent feedback everyone. If the thread needs to be moved to the tournament forum, that's great. Do so as needed.

As for 3 stock 2/3 being compared to Marvel with 2 chars, I don't think that's a fair comparison. You have 3 "lives" basically, and in MVC2 you have 3 characters. Often times the second and third characters are guaranteed dead - nothing you can do about it - when they come in. This is thanks to unblockable low beam (Sentinel) and Guard Breaks etc.

At least in Smash (Melee, for argument's sake), you start with 0% health and you come in completely invincible. Now it's up to you to play well. If someone goes 2-1 with you and you are left with 1 stock and they have 2, you can just as easily get two in a row on them (hypothetically speaking). Realistically, the longer a match goes, the more glaring the character imbalances become. A longer round doesn't actually smooth out the balance, it creates a bigger discrepancy. Which is why less rounds/stock (obviously a legitimate amount thought) with more games gives a more exciting and close battle.

At any rate, you guys are right in that we still have to wait and see how Brawl is. Maybe it's faster overall. Maybe it's slower. No way to tell just yet.

Keep the feedback coming. It's very appreciated.

- trag

 

[Shiro Kageryu]

ehh........ what?

never mind i don't want to know

this seems like it belongs in the melee section...... at least half of it

though u could let the players choose their own controller and tell them to accept losses and not blame the controlers that they chose to use.....?

oh well i really don't know this thread seems legit but i can't be sure (sry if it is)

Bring your own controller as always. Problem solved

Though obviously the tourney waters will be tested as soon as Brawl comes out, but first we need to see if it'll live up to Melee.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I'd have to disagree with you there, dude.
Single elimination in other fighting games is great, but Smash is a game where levels make a severe difference for some characters(yes even Final D.).

In my opinion to weed out people in the first bracket in brawl we should have a best-two-out-of-three but with 2 or three stocks. But yea... that wouldn't really solve the time problem as well would it

Ah, true enough.

2 Stock would be way too fast. Maybe they should do three stock and limit some of the levels in the first brackets.

How about Yoshi Story, FoD, and possibly FD. That's all I can say for Melee.

About Brawl, we will have to wait.

 

[TheManaLord]

Excellent feedback everyone. If the thread needs to be moved to the tournament forum, that's great. Do so as needed.

As for 3 stock 2/3 being compared to Marvel with 2 chars, I don't think that's a fair comparison. You have 3 "lives" basically, and in MVC2 you have 3 characters. Often times the second and third characters are guaranteed dead - nothing you can do about it - when they come in. This is thanks to unblockable low beam (Sentinel) and Guard Breaks etc.

At least in Smash (Melee, for argument's sake), you start with 0% health and you come in completely invincible. Now it's up to you to play well. If someone goes 2-1 with you and you are left with 1 stock and they have 2, you can just as easily get two in a row on them (hypothetically speaking). Realistically, the longer a match goes, the more glaring the character imbalances become. A longer round doesn't actually smooth out the balance, it creates a bigger discrepancy. Which is why less rounds/stock (obviously a legitimate amount thought) with more games gives a more exciting and close battle.

At any rate, you guys are right in that we still have to wait and see how Brawl is. Maybe it's faster overall. Maybe it's slower. No way to tell just yet.

Keep the feedback coming. It's very appreciated.

- trag

Beautifully said I'm glad Evo have a good amount of knowledge on smash.

 

[usea]

Sup trag, this is ross from irc. As has been pointed out already 3 stock best of 3 is perfectly fine.

I don't have any great insight on the wireless problem or how the wii remote situation will develop. I hope people give it a serious try sooner rather than later to explore its potential and nuance. Wavebirds are usually discouraged because they're easy to interfere with, but as far as I know interference with wii remotes is much less likely. The big issue comes from synching them. I think once you know exactly how it works, it becomes pretty easy. It's certainly not just plug and play though. Like I said, I don't really have anything worthwhile to add, sorry. Just kind of piling on more of the same.

 

[flaco]

i think only time will tell my friend

 

[tshahi10]

3-stocking is the new 4-stocking

with the only usable controller being gc, most people wont mind. i see some classicers being ####ed off, but hey, sakurai himself said that gc was the best.

3 stock, 5:00 will be a fine time setup, but wjhat would be better is that u have more systems. good luck with that lol(my friend has yet to get t a wii)

atleast the evo people are inteligent, thanxfor letting usgive suggestions

 

[trag]

I'm really glad to see all of the constructive criticism. and suggestions. One of the goals of the Evo staff is to make sure we don't completely crush a community's ruleset just to fit the game into Evo. We've had to make concessions before (like 1 game for Smash and 3S) due to time, and obviously no one appreciates it. Since Evo is fresh in our minds right now, and Brawl is right around the corner, I feel it's a good idea to get general thoughts on minor rule changes that would, overall, give us a much better opportunity to run a completely fair Smash tournament (like switching from 4 stock to 3 stock). Obviously, since we don't really know too much about Brawl, I'm sure we are going to have many discussions in the future about rules... but for now, the main things are Controllers and time.

Keep the feedback coming.

 

[Adi]

As long as it's double elimination with counterpicks and the like, it will be fine for a first-time Brawl tournament. After the community debates and understands the game more, specific rules will come into play at which point we'll inform you guys.

 

[Dr Mario Kart]

I think controllers should be open to whatever the player feels like risking.

Theres still the offchance that the single remote configuration can be mapped to the Hori Stick:

In which case, thats what I'll be using, even if it doesnt allow me to C-stick.

 

[flaco]

I thought there were gonna use the gamecube controller to play brawl are they gonna use it or no?

 

[Kirby King]

I'm gonna move this to TD now. I think the Brawl people have gotten their say, and I think the TD audience might have some valuable input too.

 

[Handorin]

You can use GC controllers for Brawl.

http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/gamemode/various/various01.html

 

[Tom]

In regards to controls, wireless is definitely going to pose a problem. When speaking with the other staff, one of the suggestions was to require either GC controller (which I assume many of you will be using) and Nintendo Classic controller. Both of these are wired obviously, and would eliminate any wireless problems. However, do you think any serious players will be using the WiiMote or the Wiimote/Nunchaku combo seriously? If so, this could be a big problem.

Generally, most players at Evo use aftermarket sticks (for all other games besides Smash and Tekken/SC - whom use 1st party pads). Though the GC and Classic Controllers are first party, they require you to purchase something additional to play and eliminate the default controller that the Wii comes with.

Do you see this as a big problem?

Requiring the use of the GC and Classic Controllers would be the best solution. It is most likely that the majority of the competitive brawl population will use one of these two, and the minority that does not would not have a hard time dealing with the change. Purchasing something additional to play is what many of us are used to, seeing as how extended use of GC controllers can cause broken control sticks or unresponsive L/R buttons.

It's very easy and it eliminates the various wireless problems.

Secondly, the time issue. 4 stock is simply too long. While Smash was a great tournament and a great finals at Evo this year, 4 stock proved to take far too long. The idea for next year would be to bump it down to 3 stock, but retain 2/3 games per match throughout the entire tournament. Would this be a big problem?

4 stock is what we are used to, but I'm sure there would be no complaints if there were 3 stock, best 2 of 3 matches. The best 2 of 3 is more important to the community than the number of stock per match, I'm sure. If time would allow, it would be nice if the Finals could be 4 stock, but time really is money when you have sponsors.

------------------------

Concerning the argument about the casual Smash community's opinion regarding this thread: you have to understand that while the casual smasher can have very informed opinions and great suggestions, the input of the casual smasher does not carry much weight when talking about tournament regulations. Especially dealing with EVO, which is highly competitive and draws professional players from across the states, the input of the competitive smasher is more important... simply because the casual smasher will not be at EVO.