Putin's invasion of Ukraine

[Alicorn]

So Putin invades Eastern Ukraine under the guise of protecting the ethic Russians living there. I feel that NATO's role is now more justified than before seeing how Putin just invaded another country violating Ukraine's sovereignty. Even saying that Ukraine isn't an actually independent country to him.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

The world is in a very scary state right now for sure.

We can only hope this isn't the triggering event for WW3, because if it is, there's a good chance we'll all be wiped out via nuclear warfare.

All because Putin wanted to swing his **** around and pretend he's a big man. Makes me sick.

 

[Alicorn]

It does depend on What Putin does, what he is asking for is beyond ridiculous, forcing Ukraine not to join NATO and telling the rest of the world to cut off all shipments to Ukraine. I feel Putin is just that desperate for something to keep his people's mind off the pandemic ravaging through Russia. Starting a war is one of the worst ways to do it and it really shows how bad of a leader Putin is.

 

[StrangeKitten]

The good news is, war is extremely cost-prohibitive. Reports say Putin is very dissatisfied with how everything is going down, and Russian tanks are running out of fuel fast. I hope, for the sake of the people in Ukraine (and possibly Russia as well, I mean the soldiers themselves may not want to invade Ukraine) and possibly the world, that this simmers down and things don't get a lot uglier.

 

[Tankman from Newgrounds]

I kinda really hate the war between Ukraine and Russia, which it really bugs me off.
God, I wish Putin wasn't acting like a **** that wants an unnecessary war that wants to make us exctinct.

If the WW3 would really happen, I would rather move out from my country into peaceful country or even fly to the moon by myself and my family (I don't care if it's too expensive to fly on the moon).

 

[Ivander]

Aside encouraging people to watch that, I sincerely pray for Ukraine's people and other civilians in general. Please stay safe.

 

[Alicorn]

I kinda really hate the war between Ukraine and Russia, which it really bugs me off.
God, I wish Putin wasn't acting like a **** that wants an unnecessary war that wants to make us exctinct.

If the WW3 would really happen, I would rather move out from my country into peaceful country or even fly to the moon by myself and my family (I don't care if it's too expensive to fly on the moon).

I feel Putin was going down this route for years, outside of international warmongering Putin isn't a very good politician when it comes to Domestic issues. The guy literally has a show called "Direct talks" where once a year he takes calls from the public and then he tells his officials to do it and then they do it.

Imagine if Trump or Biden waited an entire year to respond to the Flint water crisis because someone called in and begged them to do it and then they do it. It would be extremely insulting. Making them come off less as a benevolent ruler and more of Tyrant doing the bare minimum to keep their people happy.

Putin is just a bad person, sheltered from the world in an Ivory tower.

 

[Sucumbio]

I feel bad for Russia right now and for Ukraine and for Europe. This is really horrible. When the USSR crumbled there was a really strong sentiment of nationalism that didn't involve Russian influence and let all those republics finally begin to shape their destinies only to have it slowly eroded over the next 30 years..

I hate to say it, but we should have taken a stronger interest in post Cold War states of affairs. All these republics gave their nukes back to "the motherland" which was dumb. The KGB reconstruction wasn't aborted, oligarchy reigns supreme and who suffers? As usual the common every day citizen.

This is far from over. I have several contacts in the military who are literally on drills right now preparing. Not for Ukraine mind you... But for Taiwan. Because now there's precedent for China to annex the island.

And for all these republican Americans who cheer Putin... I call them traitor. Just like during the red scare these people are Communist Sympathisers and should be blackballed or jailed. There's no excuse or argument that can convince me that giving Putin a thumbs up is exactly the kind of thing we feared during the 50s and 60s.

I mean we went to war several times to stop Communism... We struggled against nuclear proliferation... And for what? So we could turn a blind eye in the 21st century while Putin rebuilds the Iron Curtain? The media is afraid to make these connections but I am not fooled. Trump was elected by Putin. Plain and simple. Putin infiltrated our social media and turned Americans into puppet Russians and elected Trump and now he's running again.

There's only one solution as I see it. We need to round up every last Communist Sympathiser and ship them to Russia or China. Let them deal with them. I hope to God this doesn't turn into world war. I don't think we could win. My military friends aren't scared but they've also never fought against real armies. Insurgents? Nothing compared to an actual war. This whole thing sucks.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

I disagree with “rounding up every communist sympathizer and sending them to off to China or Russia”. Whether we like it or not, people we fundamentally disagree with are still American by citizenship (or any other country) and we can’t revoke that basic human right due to a a stark contrast in opinions and rhetoric. This is both my opinion in regards to someone who likes Putin, someone who likes Biden, or someone who likes Trump. I guess that what makes most Western countries (I’ve seen this word thrown away way to much lately and I don’t like it) different from counties like Russia where dissonance against the ruling governing body is punished.

As for those who “support Putin”, they are an odd mix of Alt-right, far-right, trumpers, communists, socialists, nazi, fascist, conspiracy theorists, and armchair “truth questers”. I will say though that from my communist/socialist friend circles, they are 101% against this while, on the flip side, my MAGA friends are also against this OR like Putin because they see in him a strong and capable leader which fills the void that Trump left. And then you also got a lot of them who either a) doubt the war is happening, 2) believes Ukraine is killing its own citizens, 3) Russian is the non-aggressor and NATO/EU is or 4) Biden, Zelensky, and Putin are all in on it. It’s quite funny this group were also those who denied covid was real so yeah.

I do agree though that this is a horrible situation that affects everyone. My heart hurts for Russians and Ukrainians a like; from the civilians to the soldiers. I also feel for the rest of the world that’s impacted in one way at another. A friend of mine has family in Ukraine. Another has family in Russia. Me? I just paid $3.80 gallon for gas and barely got my tank half full with a $20. Not particulary earth shattering compared to children dying or soldiers being lied to about being sent to “do drills” but, as I said, it affects everyone. I do think it’s important to look at this logical and without fear-tinted glasses. I paid for my gas and was courteous to the cashier. The guy next to me? Well, let’s say he had choice words about the price of gas and I felt that, based on his words and body language, the cops could be called any second. Not to mention he subscribed to the aforementioned group 1, group 2, and group 3. Strange why you would choose to make your soap box in a small Speedway gas station in small town Ohio but he was adamant that the 30 he was spending at the pump was due to the ever encroaching NATO-turned-NWO and Russia is fighting to prevent it and it’s criminal to hike gas up as punishment for something Russia is trying to fight against. I guess it takes all kinds though. He was an asshat but an American asshat with rights…unfortunate rights.

Sometimes I miss Japan…

 

[osby]

There's only one solution as I see it. We need to round up every last Communist Sympathiser and ship them to Russia or China. Let them deal with them. I hope to God this doesn't turn into world war. I don't think we could win. My military friends aren't scared but they've also never fought against real armies. Insurgents? Nothing compared to an actual war. This whole thing sucks.

I'd rather have the USA make more effort to grant sanctuary to the residents of countries it invaded before forcing its citizens on other nations.

 

[Sucumbio]

It's not the people who believe in communist ideology that worry me. My wife and I talk plainly about the future a lot and agree that true capitalism isn't sustainable in the long run, that we may be experiencing the throws of late stage capitalism.

What worries me is that the kind of people who were so easily duped into raising arms against the capital on Jan 6 aren't gone. They've grown in numbers and these same people rush to support Putin, will rush to support Xi if he invades Taiwan... It's insane.

Even in Russia

“We have left communism 30 years ago, we got accustomed to having a lot of comforts that are also seen in the West. All of that progress can be gone. We are no longer a member of the international community.”

It's painfully clear Putin just can't let go of the old way of life. And that way was our enemy because it destroys freedom. This is why I worry about Americans thinking he's not the enemy. Sedition is real as we saw on Jan 6 and if we don't make it clear it's dangerous rhetoric it'll be too late before another Jan 6 happens.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Yeah, it's honestly baffling to me that the MAGA crowd are suddenly fans of Putin. These are people who, believe it or not, claim to be against fascism and totalitarian regimes. I think it's Tucker Carlson - they eat up every word he says, and lately he's been pro-Putin.

 

[StoicPhantom]

Another day, another war cycle. I guess COVID interest is waning so we're going to move on to something else. Though this one has been particularly suffocating that it managed to reach me even though I've been tuned out of the world thanks to being extremely busy these past few months. I've not seen this level of nationalistic furor, misinformation, and general ignorance leading people to furiously demand war in a region they know nothing about since the aftermath of 9/11. Time to put some context on geopolitics that amounts to more than Putin bad XD.

First lets address the crux of the issue that is Russian fears over Ukraine joining NATO. Or rather, the exceedingly obvious outcome that happens when a border state to a superpower attempts to join a military alliance that is hostile to it.

https://twitter.com/mtracey/status/1498081863243644928?cxt=HHwWgIC-8Y7hoMopAAAA

In 1997, a letter to then President Bill Clinton was written and signed by various individuals and experts including Robert McNamara (former Secretary of Defense under Presidents JFK and LBJ), Gary Hart (former US senator), and Bill Bradley (former US senator). You can read it from that link, but suffice to say it was warning against NATO expansion and the tensions it would cause.

https://twitter.com/zei_squirrel/status/1495330478722850817

Here's a Twitter thread featuring clips from renowned scholars Noam Chomsky and John Mearsheimer laying out the obvious of why Russia wouldn't want a hostile nation sharing a border with them, including making comparisons with a certain country that nearly waged war on Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis and follows something known as the Monroe Doctrine.

https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1498371877726613504?cxt=HHwWgMCjlZfSpMspAAAA

Here's Chomsky again detailing how there was an agreement between NATO and leader of the Soviet Union during its collapse that Nato would not expand any further. Of which it proceeded to violate when it invited various border states join shortly after. Also of great interest is how Europe is currently greatly dependent on Russian oil. Keep that in mind as it will come up later in my post.

In that thread are also others, including the current Director of the CIA William Burns, saying that NATO expansion is a bad idea that would provoke Russia.

https://twitter.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1498491107902062592

Long thread with many different notable figures throughout history effectively saying that NATO expansion into Ukraine would lead into war with Russia.

Stephen Cohen on Russia Ukraine Crisis "We are Well Into a Cold War"

As negotiations over the crisis in Ukraine begin in Geneva, tension is rising in the Ukrainian east after security forces killed three pro-Russian protesters...

www.youtube.com

And finally, here's renowned scholar on Russian relations Stephen Cohen going into a detailed overview on everything discussed.


So everyone and their mother was in agreement that war would break out in Ukraine if it tried to join NATO and that there was no reason for NATO's expansion, which would make them the aggressors and jeopardize their original goal of being a deterrent to war. Most have stopped short of saying it, but the implications of what they are saying are that NATO may no longer be necessary in the current era and may now be actively detrimental to peace and stability in the region.


That's a detailed overview of why Russia wouldn't want Ukraine to join NATO and why they would invade Ukraine over it, but what about NATO and Ukraine's reasons for this conflict?

What is NATO? In short, it is a defensive military alliance predicated on treating all attacks on member states as an attack on all of them. The goal was to provide a defensive coalition in Europe to deter aggression from the Soviet Union. How and why does one become a member?

Study on NATO Enlargement

www.nato.int

You can scroll down to Chapter 5 to see the details. So can Ukraine become a member? Well, that first rule of conforming to democracy is going to be tough given that the current government is the result of the Maidan Coup.

Not to mention the whole settle territorial disputes peacefully, which has not been a thing for the last decade of their history.

And so far NATO has yet to allow Ukraine to join even despite various members (*cough US) inviting them to join. NATO themselves provide a timeline of their dealings with Ukraine that seems to all but allow them to become a member. So it is rather odd that they seem to have such strong support for Ukraine, but hasn't allowed them to join even after decades of discussion related to it.

Perhaps it could have something to do with the fact that Ukraine seems to be looking to join so they can take advantage of NATO military power? And NATO, being obligated to join any war it's member states get into, wants to avoid a full-scale war with Russia, which everyone seems to agree would start World War 3 and end in mutual nuclear annihilation? I guess everyone kind of forgot that we weren't supposed to crave our own destruction.

So what is NATO's actual intentions in this conflict? They've been teasing a membership for Ukraine and never delivering while poking, prodding, and goading them into conflict with Russia. They don't want a direct war with Russia, but continue fanning the flames by providing weapons to countries like Ukraine to continue messing with them. It has become a bizarre situation where they do what they can to avoid a direct confrontation, but are still pretty sure they want to be aggressive? Does the phrase "**** or get off the pot" sound familiar to them? If they're not going to actually wage war, maybe stop all these half-assed proxy wars that do nothing but devastate the countries they're waged in?


And what of Ukraine? What is their intentions in joining NATO and further escalating conflict with Russia? I've been searching for rationale, but am turning up rather vague and incoherent reasoning.

The main one seems to be that joining NATO will somehow give them protection from Russia. But as has been illustrated already, joining NATO is the source of the conflict. You don't enter into a hostile military alliance to promote peace. You do that if you want to put a giant "Invade me" sign on your back. Not to mention that joining NATO means giving them clearance to use your country as a base of operations. If you don't think that the demonstrably aggressive NATO installing military bases in your country won't draw heat from Russia then just ask Cuba.

The other one seems to be a mix of maintaining "sovereignty" and "identity".

Sovereignty doesn't make much sense because Russia's official position is that Ukraine maintain neutrality. Not to mention entering into NATO is not conducive to maintaining sovereignty for what should be obvious reasons. You can argue that they are currently being invaded as a threat to their sovereignty, but this is only after the fact. It doesn't explain the rampant escalation and hard line stance that Ukraine has been trying to take with Russia over the last decade, believing that NATO will ultimately back them up.

I'm not saying that Russia are completely innocent actors or haven't done things to make Ukraine fear for their sovereignty, particularly the continuing territory disputes or the annexation of Crimea after the aforementioned Maidan Coup (very nuanced affair, but understandable from both sides). My point is that the current path doesn't lead to a productive outcome. Challenging a major power that will wipe the floor with you while NATO sits on the sidelines is not conducive to maintaining your sovereignty and actively threatening it.

Identity is a far more vague and murky reason. What "identity" does Ukraine possess? Ukraine's demographics ultimately makeup a wide variety of various ethnic nationalities and languages stemming from all sorts of different eras with a sharp cultural divide between the EU sympathizing western Ukrainians and Russia supporting eastern Ukrainians. To try and assume a unified identity is a bit odd and is usually a hallmark of ignorance of the country (hint hint Westerners). But ignorant Westerners is one thing, what of the country itself?

Continuing from where left off from the Maidan Coup, Ukraine has going in a clear fascist direction (Google how to use Inspect Element/an element blocker to get around the article's paywall popup). The "identity" it is currently trying to portray is an ahistorical one that attempts to rewrite history and erase minorities. Namely,

In 2015, the Ukrainian parliament passed legislation making two WWII paramilitaries—the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) and the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA)—heroes of Ukraine, and made it a criminal offense to deny their heroism. The OUN had collaborated with the Nazis and participated in the Holocaust, while the UPA slaughtered thousands of Jews and 70,000-100,000 Poles on their own volition.

leveraging the law to force certain interpretations of history,

The Holocaust revisionism is a multi-pronged effort, ranging from government-funded seminars, brochures, and board games, to the proliferation of plaques, statues, and streets renamed after butchers of Jews, to far-right children camps, where youth are inculcated with ultranationalist ideology.

cultural and educational manipulation to push a particular interpretation of history,

“No state should be allowed to interfere in the writing of history.”—British historian Antony Beevor, after his award-winning book was banned in Ukraine, The Telegraph, January 23, 2018

Ukraine’s State Committee for Television and Radio Broadcasting is enforcing the glorification of Ukraine’s new heroes by banning “anti-Ukrainian” literature that goes against the government narrative. This ideological censorship includes acclaimed books by Western authors.

In January 2018, Ukraine made international headlines by banning Stalingrad by award-winning British historian Antony Beevor because of a single paragraph about a Ukrainian unit massacring 90 Jewish children during World War II. In December, Kiev banned The Book Thieves by Swedish author Anders Rydell (which, ironically, is about the Nazis’ suppression of literature) because he mentioned troops loyal to Symon Petliura (an early 20th-century nationalist leader) had slaughtered Jews.

banning literature that contradicts false interpretations of history,

The post-Maidan government alarmed Russian-speaking Ukrainians by attempting to annul that law. The US State Department and Secretary of State John Kerry sought to assuage fears in 2014 by pledging that Kiev would protect the status of Russian. Those promises came to naught.

A 2017 law mandated that secondary education be conducted strictly in Ukrainian, which infuriated Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, and Greece. Several regions passed legislation banning the use of Russian in public life. Quotas enforce Ukrainian usage on TV and radio. (This would be akin to Washington forcing Spanish-language media to broadcast mostly in English.)

And in February 2018, Ukraine’s supreme court struck down the 2012 regional language law—the one Kerry promised eastern Ukrainians would stay in effect.

Currently, Kiev is preparing to pass a draconian law that would mandate the use of Ukrainian in most aspects of public life. It’s another example of Kiev alienating millions of its own citizens, while claiming to embrace Western values.

and abolition of language protection and subsequent restriction on languages other than Ukrainian that harms minorities. Among many other things.

This would certainly explain the sudden interest in "identity" that has sprung up. Namely, the desire to protect and enforce a falsely constructed one. I'm not sure I could personally get behind a war based on all of this, but needless to say that the outcome of fascism is often self-immolation in the defense of a completely made-up identity.


Now with all that context revealed, I think things are a little more nuanced than heroic underdog Ukraine with the overwhelming support of the stoic protectors in NATO fighting a valiant battle against Disney villain Putin. This isn't a justification of the Russian invasion, but an attempt to clarify the geopolitics involved. This whole thing could have been avoided had there been mature negotiations and a resolution with Ukraine remaining neutral with NATO and Russia halting using them as a political football.

Ultimately, regardless of what the justifications or rationales are, there is no outcome in a war with Russia that Ukraine isn't annihilated. Doesn't matter if it is their own solo war with tepid support from NATO or being on the frontline of a NATO-Russia conflict, there is no path where they aren't destroyed. That's a reality that's set in stone if they continue heading down that path. It will be Iraq/Afghanistan/Libya all over again, where the country is irreparably destroyed through years of constant war. The standing government may fall swiftly akin to Iraq, but all the Neo-Nazi paramilitary groups running around likely won't. Meaning that war isn't great for Russia either, if it doesn't want to end up exhausted from constant guerrilla warfare like the US has in the Middle East.


As an aside, I am absolutely appalled at the staggering amount of hypocrisy from the West. Imagine still being in multiple illegal wars in sovereign nations, after just getting off the embarrassment that was Afghanistan, and still believing you have some sort of moral leg to stand on. Not to get into an invasion competition, but at least cease your own illegal wars before trying to justify another proxy war (at the expense of another country) to stop someone else's illegal war.

Not to mention this call to patriotism over dealing with rising gas prices in an already trying economy. Have you ever stopped to consider why gas prices are rising due to war with Russia? Perhaps could it be because Russia is a major supplier of oil and natural gas to the world?

West Still Reluctant to Target Russia Energy on Economy Fear

www.bloomberg.com

Probably the most amazing aspect of all of this that is never talked about is that Russia supplies almost half of NATO's energy. Said in another way, NATO funds Russia's war machine through Europe's dependence on Russia's exports, which make up a large chunk of Russia's economy. Said in yet another way, NATO sanctions on Russia means sanctioning itself almost as hard, ensuring MAD in a different way than ordinarily thought of. How did this amazing turn of events happen? Perhaps because non-renewable resources run out eventually. It doesn't help that Europe is decommissioning nuclear. And to compensate Germany is trying to build a pipeline known as Nord Stream 2 directly to Russia.

Which means that Europe is simultaneously demanding protection from the US while they are directly funding the country they supposedly need protection from. And the collapse of the Russian economy means the collapse of the European economy or at least heavy damage. Did I mention that most of the oil going to Europe runs through Ukraine? Maybe that's why they want to build an alternative pipeline?

There's much more to be said on the ridiculous hypocrisy of Europe, but I'll let former US President Donald Trump take it for now:

https://twitter.com/JustinPulitzer/status/1496709662602932224

This is all happening at the same time the IPCC has released their new climate change report. I haven't had time to read it, but I'm guessing it is inline with previous reports where the change is happening more rapidly than scientists predicted and our window to prevent the destruction of the climate and subsequently all organized life on Earth is ever shrinking.

I don't know why everyone is so fascinated with annihilation from nukes and WWIII when climate change exists. You would think the increasing disasters would clue people in for once, but not when we are distracted by a country with no strategic value on their path to self-immolation. Perhaps dying in the fires of nuclear war is more appealing to people than dying from baking to death due to our laziness in trying to do something about energy sustainability.

But you know one clever trick to avoiding the two biggest threats to humanity (climate change and nuclear war), solving Europe's (and Hawaii's) energy independence, achieving energy sustainability for every country in the world, crippling Russia's economy and thus the war machine, and ending all conflicts centered around oil (almost all conflicts period)?

Renewable and green energy. Specifically funding the production and installation of green infrastructure.

You know what the world is doing instead? Pouring most of its time, energy (lol), funds, resources, and attention into wars around fossil fuels that are depleting rapidly. Wars that are coincidentally a major contributor to climate change.

 

[Champion of Hyrule]

I’m glad morale on Ukraine’s side is really high right now and while you do have to be careful glorifying everything a country does in a war, I’m glad that the Ukraine and most of the world can rally behind this cause and while there are some awful people out there sympathizing with Putin, I’m glad people generally are on the side of Ukraine and that Ukraine is ready to fight off this menace.

I have a lot of thoughts on the topic but for now I’ll say my heart goes out to all people suffering from this war, directly or indirectly including people in Ukraine, families of those in Ukraine, friends of people in Ukraine, Russians who don’t agree with the cause and more and I’m confident Ukraine will win or at least deal a massive blow to Russia.

 

[Alicorn]

Ukraine is its own independent country that should be allowed to dictate its own future. Just because Putin doesn't like it doesn't mean he has a say in anything. The man is suffering from nostalgic melancholy so he isn't in the right state of mind. For he knows when his term is up he will be casted out into the real world, something that he hasn't been in for decades.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

I’m just gonna come out and say that while I fully and 100% support Ukraine in being able to carve out its own future and dictate its own destiny, I do not see a future where Ukraine comes out on top unless there’s deliberate and powerful support from sympathetic countries as sanctions, boycotts, and security munitions do help but only the tide. Russia still has plenty of soldiers, weapons, and money on reserve that they have been stockpiling for like forever. Ukraine initially hold off the incoming waves at the start is to be expected and has happened in previous wars but they can’t hope to hold off the Russia at a prolonged rate. The only true outcomes are:

1. Ukraine is defeated and is absorbed by Russia
2. Ukraine is defeated but because the pro-Russian factions usurped the current government
3. Putin is disposed of by internal factions due to ongoing sanctions and outside military threat led by an arm of government who disagrees with the war
4. A No-Fly Zone is put up thus ushering forth World War 3. China declares that war on the west along with Syria, Cuba, North Korea, Iran, and Venezuela and other countries allied or indebted to Russia.

In addition, this all comes at a cost of soaring prices for much of anything; especially gas. This will create tension at home and diminishing wealth and prosperity for all classes.

For the sake of Ukraine, do we enter into a global conflict that might bring forth a nuclear war? Do we abandon Ukraine in hopes it can defend itself? Or do we allow Russia to do as it pleases so it can protect itself from NATO aggression? Russia will come out stronger than ever should it absorb Ukraine and these sanctions will mean very little in the long run.

Look at Chechnya to see how Russia deals with these sort of issues. They were at war with Russia twice before peace was instated and now Kadyrov is Putin’s biggest support and ready to unleash his berserkers to prevent further Russian casualties. All so Putin can accomplish his goals despite the fact they were fighting Putin not too long ago. Ukraine and Chechnya is not the same by a long shot and I fear for the Ukrainians who do not wish to side with Russia should or when Russia comes out on top.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I'm actually horrified by the singular opinions and harsh judgement in this thread. Everything is happening right now because the situation is just so blown up. You didn't see this type of media coverage when it was Yemen, or Somalia, or Iraq , no, but suddenly Ukraine is important...? Why? I fear most you here are simply fed too much propaganda to honestly think clear.

This is a war, and if any country wouldn't actively want war, it Russia. They lost the most casualties last war, they would dread it before anyone else. So something must be at stake for them right ?

If the NATO wants to claim the moral upper hand, why didn't they force a treaty between Ukraine and Russia? This conflict is almost 10 years old! No instead they reply aggressively, sending American and European troops to their border.... Yeah good move. Know who else tried to attack Russia? Only Hitler and Napoleon.

Of course it's terrible, and I sympathize with all war victims, but this black and white attitude that everyone seems to adopt here....? It's horrible. Mouth vomit worthy even. And I would seriously recommend anyone here to really reflect on this situation, and see just for yourself why you'd think what you think.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

I do agree that while it’s easy to scapegoat Russia into this, I think all sides are partial to blame including Ukraine. Ukraine has long been known as a corrupt government. NATO has severely expanded itself and I can understand why Putin and Russia feels threatened by such acts. Really, if anyone is to be blames for this, I feel everyone should be held accountable for allowing this situation to fester and not try to come to things diplomatically. I have read instances of Ukrainian forces purposefully instigating events where they can blame the Russians (the fire at the nuclear plant is an excellent example). Now, some of that is speculation by various groups and both sides points fingers at each other and accuse one another of that buzz word “war crimes”. While I side with the Ukrainian people, I wouldn’t put it past the Ukrainian government and military to do such acts to sway popular opinion towards them.

I think this is an extremely huge issue that is going to change the power plays throughout the world and how global society views itself. I disagree with it being blown up since, unlike Yemen, Somalia, and Syria, this has huge ramifications in becoming a global conflict should it escalate even further. Russia has/had its hands in many conflicts throughout the years but never before have we seen such forceful reactions from Russia.

Those don’t so, sadly, they don’t get the attention that probably justly deserve. These are primarily advanced/second world countries and a David and Goliath situation so it’s not hard to get drawn into it; especially considering the ramifications they have throughout the world. I think saying this is blowing up needlessly is a massive understatement and saying “well, you just take in too much propaganda”. Those listed conflicts also lack the historical significance of Russian aggression that has persisted since the start of the Cold War where kids in american were taught how to get under a desk to survive a nuclear bomb. I have met with several atomic bomb survivors in Japan and, based on my interactions with them, nuclear warfare should never be the last resort. It should be a never-resort and I hope our global leaders can come to a conclusion that benefits everyone. That being said, a good portion of Ukraine doesn’t want to be apart of Russia and Russia wants Ukraine. So what do we do? And we haven’t even begun to consider the possibility of other Baltic states being targeted (as unlikely it would be).

In my viewpoint, we either go to a global war or Ukraine is allowed to be absorbed by Russia. That’s honestly my only conclusions I can draw from this.

 

[Alicorn]

I’m just gonna come out and say that while I fully and 100% support Ukraine in being able to carve out its own future and dictate its own destiny, I do not see a future where Ukraine comes out on top unless there’s deliberate and powerful support from sympathetic countries as sanctions, boycotts, and security munitions do help but only the tide. Russia still has plenty of soldiers, weapons, and money on reserve that they have been stockpiling for like forever. Ukraine initially hold off the incoming waves at the start is to be expected and has happened in previous wars but they can’t hope to hold off the Russia at a prolonged rate. The only true outcomes are:

1. Ukraine is defeated and is absorbed by Russia
2. Ukraine is defeated but because the pro-Russian factions usurped the current government
3. Putin is disposed of by internal factions due to ongoing sanctions and outside military threat led by an arm of government who disagrees with the war
4. A No-Fly Zone is put up thus ushering forth World War 3. China declares that war on the west along with Syria, Cuba, North Korea, Iran, and Venezuela and other countries allied or indebted to Russia.

In addition, this all comes at a cost of soaring prices for much of anything; especially gas. This will create tension at home and diminishing wealth and prosperity for all classes.

For the sake of Ukraine, do we enter into a global conflict that might bring forth a nuclear war? Do we abandon Ukraine in hopes it can defend itself? Or do we allow Russia to do as it pleases so it can protect itself from NATO aggression? Russia will come out stronger than ever should it absorb Ukraine and these sanctions will mean very little in the long run.

Look at Chechnya to see how Russia deals with these sort of issues. They were at war with Russia twice before peace was instated and now Kadyrov is Putin’s biggest support and ready to unleash his berserkers to prevent further Russian casualties. All so Putin can accomplish his goals despite the fact they were fighting Putin not too long ago. Ukraine and Chechnya is not the same by a long shot and I fear for the Ukrainians who do not wish to side with Russia should or when Russia comes out on top.

I doubt Putin will come out of this unscathed, if he adsorbs Ukraine he will have to deal with an unhappy population whom he subjugated under the belief that Russia was saving Ukraine when in reality Putin is merely doing this to hold onto power. His term expires in 2024 so what better way to bolster his floundering rating at home than to start a war to distract the general population from his abysmal covid response. This was never about Ukraine this was about Putin's ego. So when Putin leaves power the annexation will fall apart because it was Putin's idea to take the country and without Putin there isn't much public support for war.

I find 2. to be unlikely, after all Putin has done, pro Russia sentiment is pretty much down across the world. Putin attacked Ukraine unprovoked unless you are a die hard Putin fan this puts Putin in a bad spot politically. Putin basically put many ethic Russians and Russian speakers in danger all across Eastern Europe. Because if Putin can use an excuse as bad as "protecting Russians" by annexing them, he can do the same thing in other Eastern European countries.

3. Could happen, given the intense crack downs that are happening in Russia.

4. Not happening, The US is China's largest trading partner, Xi knows that if America and China get into a war it would be a disaster for both sides. The only thing I can see is this war in Ukraine causing concerns for North Korea, because now the US would reinvest in its bases instead of closing them.


I'm against Putin annexing Ukraine, his reasons are utter hogwash, he isn't a world power he is a regional one. He had 20 years to save Russia, to make it better but like the czars of old Putin got drunk on power. As for sanctions they are already having an effect, the ruble is pretty much worth pennies. Putin's treasure trove is shirking by the day. Its a shame a man who spent decades hoarding billions in wealth is seeing it run through his fingers in a fraction of the time. I say within a few years Putin's nest egg will be worthless if this continues.

When it comes to NATO aggression Putin basically stands alone here. You can't go annex another country, who's independence your country recognized decades ago and not expect a response. Putin is in the wrong no matter how people try to look at it. Putin attacked Ukraine unprovoked no one is going to offer you much sympathy unless they are in your pocket. Putin also made it worst for himself by strengthening the need of NATO getting the exact opposite of what he wants. So now NATO could be even closer to Russia than before.

Not to mention that Putin's army is demoralize, Putin is basically forcing Russians into the arm forces many of them inexperienced, fighting a group of people who they may share cultural and family ties with.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

I'm actually horrified by the singular opinions and harsh judgement in this thread. Everything is happening right now because the situation is just so blown up. You didn't see this type of media coverage when it was Yemen, or Somalia, or Iraq , no, but suddenly Ukraine is important...? Why? I fear most you here are simply fed too much propaganda to honestly think clear.

This is a war, and if any country wouldn't actively want war, it Russia. They lost the most casualties last war, they would dread it before anyone else. So something must be at stake for them right ?

If the NATO wants to claim the moral upper hand, why didn't they force a treaty between Ukraine and Russia? This conflict is almost 10 years old! No instead they reply aggressively, sending American and European troops to their border.... Yeah good move. Know who else tried to attack Russia? Only Hitler and Napoleon.

Of course it's terrible, and I sympathize with all war victims, but this black and white attitude that everyone seems to adopt here....? It's horrible. Mouth vomit worthy even. And I would seriously recommend anyone here to really reflect on this situation, and see just for yourself why you'd think what you think.

NATO can't force a treaty between two countries that aren't members. The U.N. can't even do that.

The reason Putin wants Ukraine is pretty obvious: with Belarus, Ukraine, and Crimea, he can essentially create a buffer zone, a proverbial second Iron Curtain.

People are scared here due to the fact just how big and powerful Russia is; yeah they were crippled by the last war but they are still the largest country on earth with lots and lots of uninformed masses; war with Russia is all but guaranteed to go nuclear and that's why people care so much about this. It's less about people actually caring about the victim country and more about the global stakes; which is a good reason for anyone to be scared; and due to people paying more attention to these events, it's clear that they're realizing the true horrors of war; such as the horrific choice made by the Russians during the ceasefire; no matter your opinion you should be sickened by this truly inhumane act.

However, there's the side of the Russian people who are informed that do not want this war. We can't underestimate their fortitude; it's entirely possible they could revolt and force Putin out of power, and based on the fact he doesn't seem to trust his own staff right now, I think he realizes it.

Like it or not here - Ukraine are not the aggressors and have been working on a more stable government after overthrowing the corrupt that Venus of the Desert Bloom mentioned. Russia is the aggressor and is the enemy here. Whether you consider Ukraine to be an enemy government is irrelevant - the enemy of my enemy is my friend, as they say.


(Personally I also know some people from Ukraine but that's beside the point).

 

[Alicorn]

The whole buffer zone point becomes mute if Sweden and Finland join NATO since Finland is right next to Russia. Putin isn't really thinking this through in the long term. I would much rather him take Ukraine for its resources than to act as some buffer zone. Taking resources and influence sounds more realistic in my opinion.

I'm actually horrified by the singular opinions and harsh judgement in this thread. Everything is happening right now because the situation is just so blown up. You didn't see this type of media coverage when it was Yemen, or Somalia, or Iraq , no, but suddenly Ukraine is important...? Why? I fear most you here are simply fed too much propaganda to honestly think clear.

This is a war, and if any country wouldn't actively want war, it Russia. They lost the most casualties last war, they would dread it before anyone else. So something must be at stake for them right ?

If the NATO wants to claim the moral upper hand, why didn't they force a treaty between Ukraine and Russia? This conflict is almost 10 years old! No instead they reply aggressively, sending American and European troops to their border.... Yeah good move. Know who else tried to attack Russia? Only Hitler and Napoleon.

Of course it's terrible, and I sympathize with all war victims, but this black and white attitude that everyone seems to adopt here....? It's horrible. Mouth vomit worthy even. And I would seriously recommend anyone here to really reflect on this situation, and see just for yourself why you'd think what you think.

Treaties do not mean anything to Putin. He proved this when he invaded. So I find it difficult to believe he would want anything other than all of Ukraine under his control. He already committed war crimes, Ukrainians already despise him. So might as well go for as much as you can get since Ukraine isn't going to be in the mood for negotiations after what has happened,

 

[Diddy Kong]

No I don't believe that, Putin wants the part of Ukraine where there where already anti Ukrainian rebels. He wouldn't want the entire of Ukraine, the nation is already heavily divided, for his part, he wants the part that he feels belongs to him already. Why would you even want to usurp the parts that oppose you this much, rebellion would rise quickly after, so the fight would never stop.

And yes the potential of nuclear war is huge here, so I get the attention it gets opposed to Yemen, Somalia and Iraq. Sure, but let those country be a good reminder that the USA isn't the moral high horse of the world that it loves to claim. The USA has invaded way more countries than Russia ever did, this is the first time in ages Russia shows aggression. And I would say BECAUSE of this potentially escalating in WW3 with nuclear weapons, you would think thrice before showing a nation as Russia aggression.

I'd also like to state, am no American, am from the Netherlands, so I have much more to fear than the most of you. My country is like a little chiuahua barking at a giant bear, we don't even have a army and our minister president is shouting we should send troops and "sanctions" already. It's not farfetched that the Royal Dutch Shell sees huge opportunity here to reach for Ukrainian oil and gas, and I'm not about to die for them in no war. I have a 8 year old son, and I fear the worst. Just one nuke at one of my country's dykes and we're DONE.

That's why I speak so heavily against war. Cause it will impact my personal life the most. I refuse to die fighting a war over a already divided country with a claimed Nazi regime and have a dictorial USA who has invaded just about every country imaginable be master of my fate. Much less the EU, **** the both of them, Putin too, Ukraine too.

You'd have taught these warmongers would've learned from history, and all I see here is want of bloodshed. No talk about peace, and that from your computers or phones far away from the actual battlefield. What about us Europeans stuck between both of you power hungry warmonger nations with nuclear weapons huh? The NATO was formed to protect Europe, and now it's ****ing dragging us to war. They failed their ****ing purpose.

They where formed to protect us from the next Nazis, now they're protecting THEM?! You can't be ****ing serious.

 

[Alicorn]

Diddy one of Putin's demands is to stop sending aid to Ukraine, he wants all of Ukraine under his control not just parts of it. He already has nothing to lose so he might as well take the whole thing.

Appeasement also does not work, It didn't work in WW2, and its not going to work now. If you want to blame anyone blame Putin for he was the one who started this by invading Ukraine under false pretenses of protecting ethic Russians when in reality he just wanted to take Ukraine to build his legacy. This also sends ripple effects across the world meaning North Korea could invade South Korea and just use Nuclear weapons as a threat to keep anyone from intervening, the same goes for China and Taiwan.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

If he doesn’t want the Ukraine, why are his conditions is to demilitarize it and do remove the current seat of government? There are more than one way to own Ukraine beyond forceful occupation and integration. He could conquer and other throw the current government and then “allow” Ukraine to instate a government that’s pro-Russian. Regardless of the end result, Putin wants all of Ukraine in some form.

Allowing a country to bulldoze over another country to take back something they feel it’s rightfully theirs sets a huge precedence for future engagements like the beef between China and Taiwan. China already feels they own Taiwan. They will further encourage them that the global community will balk at any sort of aggression.

Finally, Russia has been showing aggression for decades. Crimea, Donbass, Chechnya, Afghanistan, Syria, their invasion of Czechoslovakia, Georgia, and Moldova brings up a few engagements Russia has been involved in since the 60’s. A few of these were invasions to territories they once held while others were to increase Russia’s sphere of influence and, in regards to Syria, to keep a pro-Russian leader in power.

I by no means see America as a white horse. Having lived outside of the States for nearly a decade, I know it’s not the shining beacon of democracy and freedom it often sees itself as. A good majority of the population are suffering due to inadequate and unaffordable health care, poverty and drugs are rampant, violence is surging, corruption in every sector is clearly visible, and racism is a sickness that is long overlooked. Not to mention the US more often than not failed invasions based on their “desire to enact democracy”. Afghanistan was understandable given the situation after 9/11. I was 101% to go and bring hellfire to those who caused it back then. Nowadays, I would not have supported it. Iraq was to cover papa Bush’s mistakes. Regardless though, wether people like it or not, America is still the de facto global superpower whose influence is felt around the globe and its ideals and concepts it once visualized still rings true for people even though they might not be ones that the US still embodies.

I don’t wish for war. Nor do I wish for Ukraine to be toppled. It’s rather unfair for them yo he expected to curl up and allow Russia to take something by force. They won’t give those regions away and they for sure won’t do it now that blood has been shed. I just don’t see any positive outcome save for Ukraine to be absorbed or for a puppet regime yo be set in place. A China/Taiwan crisis will follow suit.

As for a potential European war, this is something I very much would not like to see. I myself have many friends in Europe (and not just online friends but actual friends) whose safety I would be concerned about. Peace to me is the only true pathway. A war in Europe wouldn’t just be confined to Europe but would ripple out to affect the entire world. This is especially true given the globalized society that we created that is very, very much different than what was here during WWII.

Your frustration is understandable, Diddy. I really wish that there was a way for appeasement without shattering a country in half and allowing a bully (Putin) to get his way and for Europe to maintain peace. For Europeans sake and the world’s sake, I hope we can all choose peace over the deadly alternative because the end result will negatively affect just about every man, woman, and child on this planet in some fashion.

EDIT: Additionally, while the threat of war is real, Russia has largely been ostracized by the international community including China. While a China/Russia alliance isn’t entirely off the books, China’s recent statements indicate that it’s divorcing itself from Russia’s conflict. China and Russia has their own beefs in the past as well. That being said, I feel an European conflict would largely be confined to the western countries including the former soviet blocs and, sadly, portions of Poland and Romania. Russia has amassed an impressive war chest but nothing compared to what the EU/NATO has. That’s why Putin would resort to scorched earth policies if need to to ensure mutual destruction rather than to fall to the EU/NATO. Europe as a whole becoming an active warzone is rather outlandish as, unlike WWII, there aren’t multiple theaters as Europe is more or less United. You don’t have Germany and Italy dividing the continent up along with puppet regimes like in France and Spain. Russia would be facing the brunt of the western Europe which is a very unfavorable outcome. Nor would Europe have to send their men over to fight due to the already impressive fighting forces of NATO/EU (CSDP) which stands around 3 million active and reserve personnel while NATO stands at 3.5 million with room for more. Russia has around 3 million altogether which includes active and non-active. This also includes alliances with other countries who, do to treaty obligations, might be included such as Japan, Australia, South Korea, and potentially India though that would become problematic as India has ongoing conflicts with Pakistan and China. Russia can handle Ukraine but it can’t handle an unified EU/NATO alliance plus potential aggression on its eastern and southern borders. Putin is smart and has been in power a long time and that makes a deadly combination. I disagree with Lindsey Graham about a potential assassination attempt but a non-violent coup and restoration to diplomacy is the beat course or action.

Russia could probably count on North Korea as an Asian buffer along with Venezuela and Cuba but, still, Brazil would not side with Russia when facing Venezuelan aggression and there’s very little Cuba can do when facing down an unified Mexico and America. Long story short, Diddy Kong , Russia’s reach would have to be very long to puncture through the most eastward countries and through Germany and Switzerland in order to get into the more western areas. By then, the world would already be at war then. I think the biggest threat is not an European battlefield but an irradiated European continent but, at that point, it doesn’t become an European problem but a global crisis of which could ensure the near destruction of humanity…

Unless we start creating vaults and start packing people inside them.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

No I don't believe that, Putin wants the part of Ukraine where there where already anti Ukrainian rebels. He wouldn't want the entire of Ukraine, the nation is already heavily divided, for his part, he wants the part that he feels belongs to him already. Why would you even want to usurp the parts that oppose you this much, rebellion would rise quickly after, so the fight would never stop.

And yes the potential of nuclear war is huge here, so I get the attention it gets opposed to Yemen, Somalia and Iraq. Sure, but let those country be a good reminder that the USA isn't the moral high horse of the world that it loves to claim. The USA has invaded way more countries than Russia ever did, this is the first time in ages Russia shows aggression. And I would say BECAUSE of this potentially escalating in WW3 with nuclear weapons, you would think thrice before showing a nation as Russia aggression.

I'd also like to state, am no American, am from the Netherlands, so I have much more to fear than the most of you. My country is like a little chiuahua barking at a giant bear, we don't even have a army and our minister president is shouting we should send troops and "sanctions" already. It's not farfetched that the Royal Dutch Shell sees huge opportunity here to reach for Ukrainian oil and gas, and I'm not about to die for them in no war. I have a 8 year old son, and I fear the worst. Just one nuke at one of my country's dykes and we're DONE.

That's why I speak so heavily against war. Cause it will impact my personal life the most. I refuse to die fighting a war over a already divided country with a claimed Nazi regime and have a dictorial USA who has invaded just about every country imaginable be master of my fate. Much less the EU, **** the both of them, Putin too, Ukraine too.

You'd have taught these warmongers would've learned from history, and all I see here is want of bloodshed. No talk about peace, and that from your computers or phones far away from the actual battlefield. What about us Europeans stuck between both of you power hungry warmonger nations with nuclear weapons huh? The NATO was formed to protect Europe, and now it's ****ing dragging us to war. They failed their ****ing purpose.

They where formed to protect us from the next Nazis, now they're protecting THEM?! You can't be ****ing serious.

First, I'm sorry to know you're in a dangerous spot, but you also seem to be letting your biases leak both into what you're saying and your attitude; it almost seems like you hate all of us Americans just for being part of our country?

But let's be clear: No one here wants war. We're not glorifying this; this is horrific for everyone with a lick of sense.

The corrupt Nazis have been taken out of power in Ukraine. I don't know how that's not being conveyed clearly.

You're also acting as if Putin is a rationally-minded person with a sound state of mind; he isn't - he's a psychopath.

It's okay for you to be scared and stressed; none of us would want to be in your position nor are we happy that you are; and I'm entirely with you about not being willing to go fight in a psychopath's folly - I'm a vehement pacifist, but at the same time, like it or not, the fate of the world hangs in the balance this time around. It's not the Middle East where they're going to constantly be at each other's throats for the end of time.

Reminder the catalyst to the first World War was the assassination of a fairly unknown royal - so anything could spark it, the difference though is that powder-keg didn't include the atom bomb. It's not an exclusive problem for Europe - it's a problem for all of humanity, anywhere.

 

[Eremurus]

So Putin invades Eastern Ukraine under the guise of protecting the ethic Russians living there. I feel that NATO's role is now more justified than before seeing how Putin just invaded another country violating Ukraine's sovereignty. Even saying that Ukraine isn't an actually independent country to him.

some weird post in which he talks about rounding communists up and sending them to two capitalist nations

Russia=/=USSR
Today's China=/=Mao's China

You are saying a man worth $70 billion dollars, wants to bring communism back? Despite the fact Putin's only real political opposition in Russia are... the Communists? Okay, sure. You could have just saved everyone time, and said you don't know what communism actually is. At least you would have been somewhat truthful in that context.

 

[Sucumbio]

Russia=/=USSR
Today's China=/=Mao's China

You are saying a man worth $70 billion dollars, wants to bring communism back? Despite the fact Putin's only real political opposition in Russia are... the Communists? Okay, sure. You could have just saved everyone time, and said you don't know what communism actually is. At least you would have been somewhat truthful in that context.

Both China and Russia are autocracies. Neither is a democracy like the United States. They are the opposite. They are founded on Communist ideology and remain under the thumb of oppression. Every independent news agency in Russia has been broken and shut down to keep the Russian people from learning the truth of Putin's war, his insatiable need to continue imperialism in the modern age. There's no evidence anywhere whose source I'd trust that doesn't acknowledge these facts.

 

[Eremurus]

Both China and Russia are autocracies. Neither is a democracy like the United States. They are the opposite. They are founded on Communist ideology and remain under the thumb of oppression. Every independent news agency in Russia has been broken and shut down to keep the Russian people from learning the truth of Putin's war, his insatiable need to continue imperialism in the modern age. There's no evidence anywhere whose source I'd trust that doesn't acknowledge these facts.

The USA is an imperialist, capitalist oligarchy. China and Russia have existed much, much, MUCH longer than the inception of the Soviet Union, so again, I don't know what you are talking about. How are they "founded" on communist ideology, which doesn't even go back 200 years- meanwhile these nations have thousands of years of rich, vibrant, cultural history?

The Soviet Union also wasn't imperialist. What colonies did USSR have? I can think of many for USA, England, France, Spain? USSR foreign policy was entirely defensive. It is not aggressive like NATO's. The need for buffer zones made sense during the Cold War days. Did you see what the west was doing to places like Latin America and Vietnam? What about Korea? I am sure that made the USSR paranoid, and rightfully so.

For the record: I am against NATO, and I am also against the present day invasion of Ukraine. If you said Russia was imperialist, considering the actions recently seen, I would agree with you, and say you were correct. However, geopolitics requires nuance, and this region is a particularly volatile one, with a LOT of historical context. Imperialism, whether it's Russian, Chinese, American, or British- or whatever, is bad.

In case you have not figured it out yet: I am a communist. The USSR was not communist. The USSR was socialist, which was in the name. Socialism is a transitional period from capitalism to communism. Lenin stated this several times. Maybe you should read some theory.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

Making memes about this is completely inappropriate.

 

[Alicorn]

View attachment 346856

I don't understand what this meme has to do with anything I just said...

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

Eremurus Please don’t just post memes as that’s image only posting. We don’t allow that at Smashboards. Secondly, don’t double post. You could have easily included the meme (though using memes in serious discussion is frowned upon as it’s in poor debate form) while also making your statement. That being said, I mostly agreed with it and felt that it does bring into question particular issues with NATO.

 

[Sucumbio]

The USA is an imperialist, capitalist oligarchy. China and Russia have existed much, much, MUCH longer than the inception of the Soviet Union, so again, I don't know what you are talking about. How are they "founded" on communist ideology, which doesn't even go back 200 years- meanwhile these nations have thousands of years of rich, vibrant, cultural history?

The Soviet Union also wasn't imperialist. What colonies did USSR have? I can think of many for USA, England, France, Spain? USSR foreign policy was entirely defensive. It is not aggressive like NATO's. The need for buffer zones made sense during the Cold War days. Did you see what the west was doing to places like Latin America and Vietnam? What about Korea? I am sure that made the USSR paranoid, and rightfully so.

For the record: I am against NATO, and I am also against the present day invasion of Ukraine. If you said Russia was imperialist, considering the actions recently seen, I would agree with you, and say you were correct. However, geopolitics requires nuance, and this region is a particularly volatile one, with a LOT of historical context. Imperialism, whether it's Russian, Chinese, American, or British- or whatever, is bad.

In case you have not figured it out yet: I am a communist. The USSR was not communist. The USSR was socialist, which was in the name. Socialism is a transitional period from capitalism to communism. Lenin stated this several times. Maybe you should read some theory.

Communist Party of the Soviet Union - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The Communist Party of the Soviet Union was the founding and governing body of the USSR.

History of NATO - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The Allies after WWII began the steps that would become NATO in order to stop the spread of Communism.

Iron Curtain - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The Iron Curtain refers to the border states that the USSR used (through political and military control ie like annexation or Imperial Rule) to segregate its citizens from the influence of NATO countries. It fell when the USSR collapsed at the end of the Cold War.

And for what it's worth being striving for True communism isn't a crime. There have been no true communist rulers or societies in the history of the world and China and the USSR haven't even come close, instead being state capitalist regime.

As for Putin he has sent his citizens back to the stone age and undone what progress they made since the Berlin Wall fell. Yes,Westerners may be seen as "the enemy" in Russia but only because that's what they're told. No one would logically agree that living under someone else's boot is the right way to live. These soldiers speak volumes. "Putin is wrong, he lied to us" these are young men and boys who thought they were freeing Ukraine from a Nazi regime only to find out they're just there to expand Russia under the guise of "protection" from NATO, as if NATO were somehow going to try to invade Russia! Ridiculous. Russia had nothing to fear, they were about to start a huge partnership with the Nord Pipeline and now it's in shambles, the whole thing.

You're a Communist, okay... well, If I had my way, everywhere would be like the US. Everywhere would have our Bill of Rights, our sense of Freedom, self determination and sense of Patriotism. I think this is one of the few places on Earth where you can be proud of your heritage and your history while simultaneously identify as American which is separate from the "origin" of your person.

But I'm not terribly interested in debating ideal Communism. My comment was pointed toward the people here in the US who have decided that Putin is in the right. By declaring this, they're not backing True Communism, they're backing Cold War Communism and I find that to be the most un-American stance one can take.

 

[Eremurus]

Communist Party of the Soviet Union - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The Communist Party of the Soviet Union was the founding and governing body of the USSR.

History of NATO - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The Allies after WWII began the steps that would become NATO in order to stop the spread of Communism.

Iron Curtain - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The Iron Curtain refers to the border states that the USSR used (through political and military control ie like annexation or Imperial Rule) to segregate its citizens from the influence of NATO countries. It fell when the USSR collapsed at the end of the Cold War.

And for what it's worth being striving for True communism isn't a crime. There have been no true communist rulers or societies in the history of the world and China and the USSR haven't even come close, instead being state capitalist regime.

As for Putin he has sent his citizens back to the stone age and undone what progress they made since the Berlin Wall fell. Yes,Westerners may be seen as "the enemy" in Russia but only because that's what they're told. No one would logically agree that living under someone else's boot is the right way to live. These soldiers speak volumes. "Putin is wrong, he lied to us" these are young men and boys who thought they were freeing Ukraine from a Nazi regime only to find out they're just there to expand Russia under the guise of "protection" from NATO, as if NATO were somehow going to try to invade Russia! Ridiculous. Russia had nothing to fear, they were about to start a huge partnership with the Nord Pipeline and now it's in shambles, the whole thing.

You're a Communist, okay... well, If I had my way, everywhere would be like the US. Everywhere would have our Bill of Rights, our sense of Freedom, self determination and sense of Patriotism. I think this is one of the few places on Earth where you can be proud of your heritage and your history while simultaneously identify as American which is separate from the "origin" of your person.

But I'm not terribly interested in debating ideal Communism. My comment was pointed toward the people here in the US who have decided that Putin is in the right. By declaring this, they're not backing True Communism, they're backing Cold War Communism and I find that to be the most un-American stance one can take.

Where the hell do I even begin here?

Let's break it up a bit:

1) The Communist Party is just a representation of the people. It is a group. A title. USSR was socialist; because USSR had a STATE, and used CURRENCY. Communism is the complete withering away of the state, and of class, and of money. The USSR was on the path to achieving this, and the USSR, to this day, remains the greatest example, and reminder, that Marxism-Leninism is feasible, and it can work. Marxism-Leninism inspired many other successful revolutions.

2.) NATO existed SOLELY to prevent Soviet expansion- which well, have you seen western imperialism? Anyways, why is NATO still around, as USSR collapsed in 1991? Not only that, they CONTINUED to encroach closer, and closer, and closer, to Russia, who again, had defensive foreign policy during the USSR era.

3.) "And for what it's worth being striving for True communism isn't a crime. There have been no true communist rulers or societies in the history of the world and China and the USSR haven't even come close, instead being state capitalist regime."

Did you just call USSR capitalist? You people can't just say random words like that in a sentence, and hope it sticks. They had closed markets. They did not trade with anyone that was outside the Soviet Union, really. The means of production was, in fact, owned by the proletariat. I do not know what to tell you. Imperialism is the highest stage of capitalism, as Lenin famously, and correctly, wrote, and USSR was VERY anti-imperialist, so again, how could the USSR be capitalist?

China? Okay, let's rewind a bit here, because China is just as interesting as the USSR. Today, China follows a very specific branch, called Dengism. Dengism is state-regulated capitalism, not free-market capitalism, and it is underlined with Chinese, socialist characteristics. Economically, sure, China hasn't been socialist since around the 1980's, when they embraced open markets, but culturally? That is a different matter.

4.) Remember Putin's comments about "decommunisation?" About how the west had no idea what that actually entailed, and how Putin was now going to show you?

It would be good to remember, USSR annexed territory to Ukraine, on THREE SEPARATE OCCASIONS. In Putin's mind- this was, technically, former Russian land, and he wants it back.

5.) Yes, Putin is an oligarchic capitalist, with a kleptocratic government that embezzles money all the time. Nobody is arguing against this.

6.) "You're a Communist, okay... well, If I had my way, everywhere would be like the US. Everywhere would have our Bill of Rights, our sense of Freedom, self determination and sense of Patriotism. I think this is one of the few places on Earth where you can be proud of your heritage and your history while simultaneously identify as American which is separate from the "origin" of your person."

Lol.

Lmao.

Maybe if you are straight, white, rich, and Christian, sure.

7) Face it- NATO is imperialist, capitalist, and unilateralist. They are not a peacekeeping organization. They are a MILITARY ALLIANCE designed to protect the interests of the elite/bourgeoisie class of those respective nations.

The industrial military complex never sleeps.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

This isn't a debate thread of capitalism vs communism you know

 

[Diddy Kong]

First, I'm sorry to know you're in a dangerous spot, but you also seem to be letting your biases leak both into what you're saying and your attitude; it almost seems like you hate all of us Americans just for being part of our country?

But let's be clear: No one here wants war. We're not glorifying this; this is horrific for everyone with a lick of sense.

The corrupt Nazis have been taken out of power in Ukraine. I don't know how that's not being conveyed clearly.

You're also acting as if Putin is a rationally-minded person with a sound state of mind; he isn't - he's a psychopath.

It's okay for you to be scared and stressed; none of us would want to be in your position nor are we happy that you are; and I'm entirely with you about not being willing to go fight in a psychopath's folly - I'm a vehement pacifist, but at the same time, like it or not, the fate of the world hangs in the balance this time around. It's not the Middle East where they're going to constantly be at each other's throats for the end of time.

Reminder the catalyst to the first World War was the assassination of a fairly unknown royal - so anything could spark it, the difference though is that powder-keg didn't include the atom bomb. It's not an exclusive problem for Europe - it's a problem for all of humanity, anywhere.

I can dislike a nation's choices and leaders, but feel very different around its citizens. So , no, I don't actively hate America, but I do disagree greatly about their meddling with foreign policies. I mean, it's common knowledge now that Saddam Hussein didn't have weapons of mass destruction for example, and the USA is known to destabilize a lot of countries in the past and present for their benefit. I also would very much hesitate calling the USA a democracy either.

In general, am opposed to all these great super powers of nations, USA, Russia but let's not forget China. They all hold way too much power than is healthy for the world to be stable and peaceful. And if they are this powerful, they should aim for collective security, which was the prime reason the United Nations was established, but it too failed it's purpose.

"Above all, from the human mind must be erased all thoughts of war as a solution. Then and then only will war cease.“ — Haile Selassie I

 

[Capybara Gaming]

I can dislike a nation's choices and leaders, but feel very different around its citizens. So , no, I don't actively hate America, but I do disagree greatly about their meddling with foreign policies. I mean, it's common knowledge now that Saddam Hussein didn't have weapons of mass destruction for example, and the USA is known to destabilize a lot of countries in the past and present for their benefit. I also would very much hesitate calling the USA a democracy either.

In general, am opposed to all these great super powers of nations, USA, Russia but let's not forget China. They all hold way too much power than is healthy for the world to be stable and peaceful. And if they are this powerful, they should aim for collective security, which was the prime reason the United Nations was established, but it too failed it's purpose.

"Above all, from the human mind must be erased all thoughts of war as a solution. Then and then only will war cease.“ — Haile Selassie I

I agree. The world shouldn't have these. But so long as even one exists there has to be a counter balance. But they should never act unless as a response to the other's great evil.

Mankind by nature is selfish and egotistical. This is a safe truth, and because of this, the dream of a true world peace can never be. We had about as close to it as we could get, but that's threatened now.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

I think the far-right/right backing Putin has less about backing any perversions of communism that exists within the current Russian government and more so "Putin is a strong leader and we should do what Putin is doing to the Ukraine as what we should do to our southern border."

I have seen this crop up A LOT amongst by tight-leaning friends and family.

As someone I thought as a friend a while back said...

Russia invades Ukraine Day 1: Putin is a thug and a bully. Someone needs to take him out.

Now: Putin is trying to save Ukraine from nazi influence and just wants old territory back. He's a good guy and a strong leader.

 

[Alicorn]

I can dislike a nation's choices and leaders, but feel very different around its citizens. So , no, I don't actively hate America, but I do disagree greatly about their meddling with foreign policies. I mean, it's common knowledge now that Saddam Hussein didn't have weapons of mass destruction for example, and the USA is known to destabilize a lot of countries in the past and present for their benefit. I also would very much hesitate calling the USA a democracy either.

In general, am opposed to all these great super powers of nations, USA, Russia but let's not forget China. They all hold way too much power than is healthy for the world to be stable and peaceful. And if they are this powerful, they should aim for collective security, which was the prime reason the United Nations was established, but it too failed it's purpose.

"Above all, from the human mind must be erased all thoughts of war as a solution. Then and then only will war cease.“ — Haile Selassie I

I do agree with your criticisms that America has done things for its own benefit and the way our electoral system is set up is anti-democratic favoring land over people and that our Presidents should be held accountable for what goes on in foreign policy. However Putin is the worst actor at the moment. Threatening to nuke anyone that gets involved with his obsession over Ukraine. So for the time being Putin shall be our focus for now.

I think the far-right/right backing Putin has less about backing any perversions of communism that exists within the current Russian government and more so "Putin is a strong leader and we should do what Putin is doing to the Ukraine as what we should do to our southern border."

I have seen this crop up A LOT amongst by tight-leaning friends and family.

As someone I thought as a friend a while back said...

Russia invades Ukraine Day 1: Putin is a thug and a bully. Someone needs to take him out.

Now: Putin is trying to save Ukraine from nazi influence and just wants old territory back. He's a good guy and a strong leader.

Sadly a lot of people who live in Red states and districts don't see what Putin is wrong because politicians run their districts, counties and states similar to how Putin runs Russia. Oppress the voices of the minority, cater to rural voters, older voters who are more likely to be out of touch with the on goings of what's happening in urban areas. Thin lines between church and state. Often relies on resource exaction to make ends meet (Oil, gas, coal, fracking)

Red states and Russia share a lot in common.

There is also the anti Biden element which open comes from Newt Gingrich turning our politics into a sports match. My team your time. I might not agree with what my team is doing but I'm more voting against your team than supporting mine. So if Biden is for something, Republican voters are taught to be against it, even if it means siding with a dictator like Putin.

It also doesn't help that a lot of far right backed groups receive funding from Russian Oligarchs, so they have a financial reason to toe the line.

 

[osby]

It's not the Middle East where they're going to constantly be at each other's throats for the end of time.

I'm seeing way too many "well, the Middle East is a lost cause so who cares if they have wars unlike Europe/USA" takes since this whole crisis started.

I find it extremely insensitive, especially coming from countries that played a key role in destabilizing the whole region for their own gains. As much as I condemn Russia's actions, it's no wonder MENA countries have been mostly reluctant in denouncing them.

We all know that NATO wouldn't care about Ukraine's invasion if it wasn't a Christian/white majority population but to be reminded about it so frequently online is disheartening.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

I'm seeing way too many "well, the Middle East is a lost cause so who cares if they have wars unlike Europe/USA" takes since this whole crisis started.

I find it extremely insensitive, especially coming from countries that played a key role in destabilizing the whole region for their own gains. As much as I condemn Russia's actions, it's no wonder MENA countries have been mostly reluctant in denouncing them.

We all know that NATO wouldn't care about Ukraine's invasion if it wasn't a Christian/white majority population but to be reminded about it so frequently online is disheartening.

Let me be clear: I don't think war of any kind is okay under any circumstances (well, except fictional) I'm just noting that the countries there already have s tenuous relationship at best, primarily over religion anyway, and there's little to no hope if them ever stopping.

If it were my way, America would've stayed out of it.

As for the NATO comment uh... It's a political alliance that also includes nations like Turkey, Greece, and Spain which have sizable populations that aren't white or Christian, NATO cares because there's a war at their doorstep