Punishing an opponent with no technical ability

[JustYuck]

Hi again,

So I don't have a video this time, but I am having trouble dealing with Fox. Here is the situation, this particular opponent I play a lot has little to no technical ability. He can tech and shield grab but that is it. He can't wavedash, dashdance, multi shine, short hop, or even l-cancel. He is a very low tech player.

I can use a lot of marths technical abilities but have trouble applying/capitalizing. My dashdance is my biggest advantage because he sometimes has trouble reading me and will miss an fsmash and I can punish.

So heres the problem. He beats me a lot of the time. Usually its shine spikes and uairs he kills me with, occasionally fsmash will knock me out as well. He loves to spam fsmash/lasers to try and knock me off my game. Is there any particular strategy I could utilize to beat him all of the time, considering he does not really know much about the technical aspect of the game?

TL;DR: Opponent has no tech skill aside from teching and shield grabbing. He usually kills me with uthrow -> uair/fsmash/shine spikes, he likes to spam fsmash and lasers. What can I exploit from his low technical knowledge of the game?

If ya'll need a video I might could try and record our next game. I can beat him some of the time, but its disheartening that he takes the game super casually and still beats me some of the time. Thanks.

 

[AirFair]

Ok forget the tech skill and treat it like any other game. Marth fox is so easy once you establish control. All you have to do is get a grab. Chances are this guy is probably very predictable. Punish with grab. Go in with grab. Just grab. Chaingrabs are pretty much guaranteed because he doesn't know which way to DI. You can get a free fsmash that might tip at around 80%. edgeguarding should be a breeze with fsmash, dair, and ledge options.. You got this. Ask if you need any more help.

 

[JustYuck]

Here is a video of a game I actually win.

Again please excuse the AWFUL quality, but hopefully it can give you guys an idea of what I am doing wrong/right.

 

[AirFair]

I'll watch this when I get home from school lol

 

[Rlagkrud]

Some things I've noticed:
1. Dash dance with a purpose. It seems like when you DD, there's no baiting out or looking for an opening. It accomplishes nothing.
2. You punish his laggy moves with a dash attack. This is fine if you tipper and combo with it, but you don't. Grab instead.
3. JC Grab.
4. SHFFL. Most of your aerials seem to be full hop, some weird aerial, sometimes a random airdodge, and he just punishes you for it.
5. When you do DD close to him, you automatically shield or roll. Get comfortable with close quarters, cause you noticeably switch to defensive play in those situations.
6. Learn your percentages. You seem to be doing the same thing over and over that doesn't work at that percent.
7. Stop Fsmash spamming. Learn the various other options you have in your specific situation. This involves watching high level play and see what they do.
8. Don't play white marth.

 

[AirFair]

8. Don't play white marth.

I agree purely out of opinion lol it's up to you tho,

 

[Nicholas1024]

Alright, here's my notes on the match.

1. You definitely don't seem to have anything in mind when you dash dance. Considering he's literally just F-smashing half the time, some decently spaced down tilts would probably shut him down completely.

2. I'll be blunt, your punish game is really bad. This Fox isn't stringing together hits well at all, but neither are you. Even when you do touch him, you tend to hit a dash attack and miss the followup... or a fair and miss the followup... or a grab and miss the followup. The point is, practice your combos and some basic strings until you stop missing followups.

3. NEVER randomly full hop in neutral like that. This Fox wasn't punishing it, but a decent Fox will, and hard. Jumping in general is a commitment that you need to be careful about, but randomly full hopping in particular is a terrible habit.

4. Watch some decent Marths and learn how they edgeguard Fox. You don't seem to be hitting any edgeguards, and that's something Marth can't afford to miss in the matchup. In general, you should be watching for the side-B and then react to the up-B once you see the startup.

5. The forwards smash and dash attack spam will not work against a decent opponent, as both options can be punished very hard when shielded. It's another case of "This Fox wasn't taking advantage of it, but a good Fox will."

6. Please stop spamming roll in neutral. Rolling should be reserved for getting out of a high pressure situation, and should never be spammed, as it's very punishable when predicted, and Fox is one of the best characters at that sort of thing.

I know this is pretty harsh critique, but your Marth seems to be missing a lot of basics. Read some guides, watch other Marths play, and above all, practice. There's no instant "Become good at dash dancing/wavedashing" secret, you just have to keep practicing your movement until it becomes second nature. It'll be frustrating at first (In fact, you might even find yourself getting hit more due to failed/badly judged movement), but once you get good at it, your Marth will get so much better.

 

[JustYuck]

Some things I've noticed:
1. Dash dance with a purpose. It seems like when you DD, there's no baiting out or looking for an opening. It accomplishes nothing.
2. You punish his laggy moves with a dash attack. This is fine if you tipper and combo with it, but you don't. Grab instead.
3. JC Grab.
4. SHFFL. Most of your aerials seem to be full hop, some weird aerial, sometimes a random airdodge, and he just punishes you for it.
5. When you do DD close to him, you automatically shield or roll. Get comfortable with close quarters, cause you noticeably switch to defensive play in those situations.
6. Learn your percentages. You seem to be doing the same thing over and over that doesn't work at that percent.
7. Stop Fsmash spamming. Learn the various other options you have in your specific situation. This involves watching high level play and see what they do.
8. Don't play white marth.

I like white marth! Haha. Any tips on dealing with those gimp-y shine spikes seen at like 3:25. He does not really have a set up for them but he does like to use them a lot. Also, what is the benefit of JC grabbing, I can do it and usually use them on pivot grabs, but I thought the dash grab range was further than the standing grab range so why JC grab? Thanks!

 

[JustYuck]

Alright, here's my notes on the match.

1. You definitely don't seem to have anything in mind when you dash dance. Considering he's literally just F-smashing half the time, some decently spaced down tilts would probably shut him down completely.

2. I'll be blunt, your punish game is really bad. This Fox isn't stringing together hits well at all, but neither are you. Even when you do touch him, you tend to hit a dash attack and miss the followup... or a fair and miss the followup... or a grab and miss the followup. The point is, practice your combos and some basic strings until you stop missing followups.

3. NEVER randomly full hop in neutral like that. This Fox wasn't punishing it, but a decent Fox will, and hard. Jumping in general is a commitment that you need to be careful about, but randomly full hopping in particular is a terrible habit.

4. Watch some decent Marths and learn how they edgeguard Fox. You don't seem to be hitting any edgeguards, and that's something Marth can't afford to miss in the matchup. In general, you should be watching for the side-B and then react to the up-B once you see the startup.

5. The forwards smash and dash attack spam will not work against a decent opponent, as both options can be punished very hard when shielded. It's another case of "This Fox wasn't taking advantage of it, but a good Fox will."

6. Please stop spamming roll in neutral. Rolling should be reserved for getting out of a high pressure situation, and should never be spammed, as it's very punishable when predicted, and Fox is one of the best characters at that sort of thing.

I know this is pretty harsh critique, but your Marth seems to be missing a lot of basics. Read some guides, watch other Marths play, and above all, practice. There's no instant "Become good at dash dancing/wavedashing" secret, you just have to keep practicing your movement until it becomes second nature. It'll be frustrating at first (In fact, you might even find yourself getting hit more due to failed/badly judged movement), but once you get good at it, your Marth will get so much better.

What is the best way to practice follow ups? I feel like I was almost better at follow-ups before I started incorporating more of marths movement abilities into my game. Even DDing makes it difficult for me to do things like SHFFLs and dtilts because of the lag after the dash. I just have trouble following up because I can't make Marth go where I want him to go.

 

[Rlagkrud]

I like white marth! Haha. Any tips on dealing with those gimp-y shine spikes seen at like 3:25. He does not really have a set up for them but he does like to use them a lot. Also, what is the benefit of JC grabbing, I can do it and usually use them on pivot grabs, but I thought the dash grab range was further than the standing grab range so why JC grab? Thanks!

He should only get those shines off if he hard reads you. If you expecting him to do that, you can just swat him away with a fair or bforward.
You should always JC grab. It has less startup/ending lag. The extra range from dash grab is negligible and not worth the lag it adds on.

 

[PsyRex]

It seems like a lot of the time you get a grab and then just toss him up in the air and then wait for him to hit the ground. If you practiced chaingrabbing a bit, you could probably just get 4 chaingrabs in a row. Another note, dtilt is pretty good. Use it more. Random airdodges are pretty bad, do less of that. Also realize that if he keeps getting these fsmashes when you run in, then you can bait them out and punish them pretty easily. Last thing: Never let anyone tell you white marth isn't the best.

 

[RazeriaN]

-Use all of Marth's moveset. You're being predictable.

- Dont double jump FAir. Marth's offstage with no jumps is BAD.

-Use counter to counter those full jump firefoxes (No pun intended)

- If you're not good at chain grabbing then just up-throw,Up tilt.

-Yoshi Story is a good map if you want to get matches from a fox while being a lower-level Marth.

 

[-=Untamed-Beast=-]

Edit: lol wooow only 2 posts loaded on my screen when I wrote this, so My B if less relevant now...

Goals:
-Don't spam your superior tech skill; be smart and aware of how you're applying any and everything you do. Be purposeful in your actions.
-Pay attention to when you are vulnerable and get punished; consider what you should/could have done differently.
-Practice Smash DIing Fox's Uair.
-Focus on watching your opponent more than you see yourself. Being comfortable with your movement allows for confidence in your movement.
-Study top players to see how they punish bad habits. Pools matches are great way to do this.
-Learn how you can DI shines.
-Also watch top Marths when they get shined from the stage to see how they avoid shine spikes. Are you jumping into them? Do you use a side-B and then get shined spiked? You make yourself vulnerable in these ways.
-Don't get grabbed.
-Maintain stage control so that you don't have to worry about approaching him, but instead pressuring him to take action and punishing him for being bad at it.

You said he tries to spam lasers and fsmashes to throw you off your game. Does it work? If so, why do you think that is? If you keep yourself a midrange, you remain close enough to punish any laser spam, yet far enough that random fsmashes won't get you. You have numerous options to get away from a random fsmash on reaction, though.
To avoid shield grabs, try spacing your moves out of his grab range and/or hitting low of enough on his shield that you can L-cancel and retreat or dash through him before he can grab. 20XX makes this easier to practice. You can stop attacking his shield altogether to bait out a shield grab that he'll miss. Punish him.
If he's grabbing a lot, how is he getting you? Bad approaches? Are you using smash attacks in neutral? Refer to the 2nd goal above.

Hope this helps.

 

[MarthZ]

Here is a video of a game I actually win.

Again please excuse the AWFUL quality, but hopefully it can give you guys an idea of what I am doing wrong/right.

hey if you have a VHS please record this then go into your editor and use a mic or something because I cannot stand this sorry but it just had to be said oh and white Marth twinz
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

 

[FatherJason]

New to Smash, so forgive me if I point out the wrong things.
From what I just saw in the video, you're doing several things wrong.
1. Dash dancing
You're randomly dash dancing without achieving anything.
2. Random Air Dodging
I can't tell if some of the random air dodges were a result from not being able to wavedash, but avoid doing that.
3. Rolling constantly
Ain't sm4sh bud :^)
4. Random full hopes into an aerial
You can be punished pretty hard for that
5. Not using D Tilt
D tilt is pretty good on Marth, try using it more often.
6. Up throw into nothing or a forward tilt
You can use up throw, especially against a spacie, to chain up tilts and do combo strings. Or you can chain grab since you were vsing a fox

 

[Blackavar]

What tech skill do you even have that he does not? You only short hop like ten percent of the time. Dashing back and forth halfway across the stage, incredibly slowly for no reason isn't really dash dancing either.

 

[Dandy_here]

NEVER EVER FULL HOP UP AIR. Short hop up airs and up tilts are good for juggling foxes. Full hop up air doesn't tipper and barely does any knockback. Also don't full hop back air for now real reason. I noticed you used it when he wasn't in proximity to you. Frame data will help you with these. Now for the rolling problem, don't ever roll in neutral and close quarters. It is laggy and should be used sparingly. Try wavedashing back then throwing out an fsmash. In close quarters remember marth's ridiculous grab range and use it to your advantage, also jc grab. You messed up your chaingrabs which happens to everybody, but it was as if you did not even know you could. TIMING IS KEY HERE. Lastly, take advantage of your opponent when they do certain moves frequently. The fox was laser camping you, and you didn't punish properly. Try to go to ledge and bait him out. Also, pick something like yoshi's or fod for laser happy foxes. Also remember that center stage is your best friend. Facing your opponent, with your back to center stage is perfect positioning as well as knowing how to properly edge guard spacies. hope I helped!

 

[MarthZ]

oh btw do you know how to SHFFL