Psuedo pivots

[MookieRah]

EDIT: This is not a typical run cancel.

I'm sure this has been discovered before, but I didn't know about it. If someone knows what this technique is, please tell me the name in a comment.

Basically this functions almost like a pivot for any forward dash, except I think it's a couple of frames slower and is much easier to perform. Dash forward, let the stick return to neutral, input another dash forward, input down, and then input whatever move you want. Dtilt is the easiest, but you can do any tilt or smash out of this, and it's faster than a wavedash, with more control on the distance of the dash. There is a minimum distance, as it seems to have something to do with the dash animation (for instance I tried this with Mewtwo and you have to stay in dash for much longer).

I'm trying to see if you can use this same trick to perform a psuedo pivot backwards. I'm not sure if you can, cause so far I have been unable to do so. Still, this is very easy to do and honestly is almost as good as a real pivot, and definitely superior to using wavedashes in most cases.

In any case, Marth would get a lot of mileage out of this, as this gives you more options while in dash.

 

[Link24a]

Can you upload a video of this or something because I'm having a really hard time picturing this. But I think you're just going into the run animation and canceling it with a crouch

 

[MookieRah]

I don't have the means to record but this is such an easy thing to do and to test for.

I'm definitely not run-cancelling. I know this cause I've been run cancelling since 2004, so I very much know the dash and run mechanics :-P. I think what is happening is that the run animation is triggered early with the second dash input, which then allows you to run cancel before you normally would be able. Try it, Dash forward, let the stick reset, input another dash and then press down. You'll get to crouch before a run cancel would allow it.

It's not as fast as a true pivot because the dash slows down on the second dash input, and the distance this covers is very constrained. The minimum distance is slightly longer than a full Marth wavedash, and really the maximum distance is just holding the dash a few frames more. You also can't turn it around like a pivot, as it does trigger the run animation and attempt to turn causes the slow turn around animation. Those are it's limitations, but this is still quite useful.

 

[Sieghart]

Tried to get it a number of times but couldn't manage it. If you can be more detailed about things like timing and ensure the inputs are correct I can record it for you.

 

[MookieRah]

I can't really explain the inputs any easier, but here goes.

Input a smash forward
Let the control stick move backwards (it doesn't have to be at neutral, but it's easier to let it return to neutral)
Input another smash forward*
Input down
Do whatever

* - You input this close to the end of a short foxtrot. You will have dashed roughly the distance of a typical (but not max distance) wavedash. It's not much of a delay, mind you. You can actually delay this for longer (not holding run) you can basically let a foxtrot peeter off most of the way (before you are able to input normal attacks) and still do it. If you are having problems it's likely due to the fact that you are inputting things too quickly.

I haven't tried this on the gamecube, so there is a very, very small chance that this is some kind of 20XX glitch.

 

[Sieghart]

Alright, looks like I got it. Recording now.

 

[MookieRah]

Again, I'm almost certain this is some known trick. I don't know if anyone thought about using it this way though. I don't recall the Marth boards mentioning this, as I can't imagine this not being useful enough to be common knowledge.

This trick works for all characters I would imagine (I happened upon it messing around with Mewtwo), but it's way more useful for Marth than most other characters.

 

[Sieghart]

Is this what you were referring to?

Did it with M2 because stuff.

 

[MookieRah]

Yes. It's less recognisable for me cause I've been doing it Marth today and haven't messed with M2, but that is definitely it. Thanks for taking the time to document this!

As you can tell by doing it, there are restrictions on it. This won't be game changing, but it's more significant than a 'niche' tech. I can't do frame data on this otherwise I'd be mining data on it. I think it's faster than wavedash > stuff for Marth, but it's hard to say without frame data. At the very least, this travels farther than a wavedash, so in that sense it will be useful.

 

[Sieghart]

Yes. It's less recognisable for me cause I've been doing it Marth today and haven't messed with M2, but that is definitely it. Thanks for taking the time to document this!

As you can tell by doing it, there are restrictions on it. This won't be game changing, but it's more significant than a 'niche' tech. I can't do frame data on this otherwise I'd be mining data on it. I think it's faster than wavedash > stuff for Marth, but it's hard to say without frame data. At the very least, this travels farther than a wavedash, so in that sense it will be useful.

No problem at all. I'm not sure about applications for Marth since I don't personally play him. The title is really the reason I came here, tbh. I can already see applications for M2 though, which is exactly what I did come here for. So, thank you.

 

[tauKhan]

Sorry, but the op just describes a more complex way to do a run cancel. Also the vid posted contains just run cancels.

I think what is happening is that the run animation is triggered early with the second dash input, which then allows you to run cancel before you normally would be able.

I think your perception about the time spent in the dash gets just tricked because you're doing a lot of inputs. So it feels your run starts faster even though in reality it doesn't. In fact for me it feels like faster that way, most likely. But when you compare for example the sound that starts when you run, it's very obvious that doing double tap doesn't affect the earliest timing you can start running.

However, there's some utility in doing run cancels this way, since your dash is slower if you release the stick, and thus need less space to start running.

 

[MookieRah]

I don't think that is the case taukhaun, as the moment you make the 2nd dash input you can see the switch to the run animation, regardless of the timing of the second input.

 

[tauKhan]

That's because it's very hard to do double tap so fast that the second input wouldn't hit run window. This is also a reason why it feels faster. Go try in slow motion instead.

 

[MookieRah]

I have tried it in slow motion, and I also thought for a while this tech functioned as you are saying, but when you actually look at it with Marth, you can see that regardless of your timing for the second dash input that it enters run animation immediately afterwards. Specifically once you input the second dash, you see the same ending animation as if you let a run complete it's animation.

Also, it's not hard to do the double tap (in a general sense of melee tech as a whole), and in fact you don't have to let the control stick reset to neutral which makes the second input that much easier to do. It's just easier to get the timing right for it by doing the double tap at first.

 

[tauKhan]

You can delay the run that way to start on any frame between 16-20, but you cannot start run before frame 16 of dash with marth.

 

[MookieRah]

So now that we know what is going on, how can we use this? Is there an easier way to do this?

The question of whether or not it is useful should be a resounding yes, because this travels farther and faster than a wavedash while reserving more of your options than a wavedash.

Also, doesn't this deserve a name? While it is a run cancel, the application of the technique is not what people associate with a run cancel, and would be harder to explain what it is if we just called that. Since I'm not super knowledgeable when it comes to the more detailed aspects of the mechanics, I'm thinking that there are other people that could come up with a name for this that describes what this is both more accurately and succinctly.

 

[tauKhan]

It's a slow dash into run cancel, and that describes it accurately enough in my opinion.

Also wd -> ground moves comes out faster, frame 15 earliest, while the earliest run cancelled move comes out frame 19. Wavedashing is also faster than full speed dash, and 4 frames of dash -> good wavedash reaches considerably further than run cancel on that frame.

The advantage of run cancels in general is that it's much more flexible than wd, since with wd you have to choose the spacing 10 frames in advance. Run cancels let you space more reactively.

Slow dashes can be very useful esp. for Marth, since his run cancels require so much space to set up, that it can be hard to find opportunities for them in matches. So this should allow you to get more run cancel dtilts in, which is a pretty powerful tool in the neutral for Marth.

 

[MookieRah]

That answers something I was actually going to ask, if you could accomplish the same thing with a dash > wavedash and whether or not it was faster.

In any case, what it boils down to is flexibility versus speed. Slow Dashing allows you to react to spacing and/or attacks, while a dash wavedash allows you to get to where you want to be faster. Also, in the context of a match, it wouldn't be hard to determine which is better, so I think it wouldn't take long for people to incorporate into their game.

 

[Sycorax]

Kadano posted a thing about this a few months ago on r/ssbm. Here's the gfycat and here's the thread.

 

[Sieghart]

Kadano posted a thing about this a few months ago on r/ssbm. Here's the gfycat and here's the thread.

Thanks for this.