Project M Social Thread

[RK9]

Melee online... Why does this take so long to download.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Well I'll be ****ed given that at the end of the day, Skler cares more about Link being fun above anything else, when the rest of his posts in matchup discussion as well as his online guide to Link suggest a whole host of other problems being the reason why Link sucks.

except that in melee, link's arrows were trash. His boomerang had MUCH less stun and kb, especially when it returned. His bombs had much less kb/stun as well.

Yeah arrows sucked on hit. Arrow canceling + better on hit Arrows kinda helps, but is that really going to win Link matches?

And you do realize the lower knockback on Bombs and Boomerang is actually not a bad thing in combos? More important is generally Link's positioning.

His dair has less lag than it did in melee, and if you're still not satisfied with that, you can bounce off of shields and now edge cancel as well. His sword based moves in general have extended range and stun. His usmash and dsmash are both fantastic. Both deal good damage, kill, have good shield pressure (usmash in particular), and combo. Almost nothing about him is arguably worse than in melee(just recovery as you pointed out) and mostly things have been significantly buffed.

Last time I checked, D-air was still not a safe move to throw out randomly and pretty much a combo tool or for punishing on reads. In fact throwing out Smashes in general outside of a combo or really strong bait (example: Falcon and F-smash) isn't wise. So again...how does this really make Link's onstage game any good, besides the implied reward suggested here?

His recovery even then is mostly fine.If he's recovering from below the stage is difficult to edge guard the up B, and rolling doesn't work as well. Due to brawl DI, you can live a long time, and it's fairly easy to get an opponent off the edge/prevent them from doing so with his arrows, which essentially work like doc's pills do, and when you do that you have the option of an up B or an air dodge grapple, or stalling with a bomb jump. I made it back the majority of the time I ended up off the stage, even against sheik and marth, and that was before I learned how to bomb jump. I'd never played P:M melee before 2 days ago, and I still did fine against top players like vanz playing familiar characters from melee like fox and sheik.

Dude, how is it difficult to edgeguard Link's Up-B if he has to recover low? Ledgedrop B-air all day with Mario or Sheik. Ledgedrop Shinespike with Fox. Ledgedrop U-air with Ganon. Ledgedrop SideB with Marth. Furthermore I'm not sold on Link's arrows being as good as Doc's Pills for getting people to stop ledgestalling. Seriously, I'm not understanding where you're getting free recoveries like this, ESPECIALLY without the Hookshot grapple on walls.

 

[Vigilante]

@vigilante: you're making the same mistake the project m haters make

NEVER underestimate a brawl hacker. they work ****ing miracles.

I'm not really underestimating them, rather, I,m saying that you need something of Project M's magnitude for a hack to be worth it. Brawl is literally unplayable if one's goal is "fun", thus the need tor a complete overhaul.

I do find the idea of trying to salvage Brawl, a rather horrible game rather ridiculous. The only right approach is Project M, thus changing the entire system

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm not really underestimating them, rather, I,m saying that you need something of Project M's magnitude for a hack to be worth it. Brawl is literally unplayable if one's goal is "fun", thus the need tor a complete overhaul.

I do find the idea of trying to salvage Brawl, a rather horrible game rather ridiculous. The only right approach is Project M, thus changing the entire system

Brawl is bad because of THREE EXCEEDINGLY SIMPLE REASONS.

1. Matchup imbalances
2. Planking
3. Infinites.


Those are all really, really, really easy to fix believe it or not. And you don't need a Melee engine for it at all.

 

[rageagainst]

PM devs, word of advice, don't respond to A2Z, waste of energy. And to A2Z, they just improved Link from his melee incarnation (a lot btw, so happy about his range), no need to reinvent the wheel to fix a char when they already have a unique melee gameplay. And jesus if you think his current recovery his bad, play fox/falco/sheik/falcon/etc.

 

[A2ZOMG]

PM devs, word of advice, don't respond to A2Z, waste of energy. And to A2Z, they just improved Link from his melee incarnation (a lot btw, so happy about his range), no need to reinvent the wheel to fix a char when they already have a unique melee gameplay. And jesus if you think his current recovery his bad, play fox/falco/sheik/falcon/etc.

Define a lot.

Last time I checked, Link's buffs were extremely subtle. Except the F-tilt buff. Hell the Project M Dojo pretty much said that was the goal. They kept Link mostly the same, his recovery couldn't really be brought back to status quo, gave him a few minor power buffs, and that was pretty much it besides the better F-tilt, which is still slow enough that it's not going to really make Link "fast" or decent at pressure.

Furthermore, Fox and Sheik clearly have better recoveries than Link. Falcon's recovery also is not nearly as terrible as it was in Melee, given the option of SideB, so honestly his recovery is probably more comparable to Link's current recovery.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

My input:

A2Z is a very reasonable person worth listening to. It's funny to see so many people misinterpret his points over the last several pages.

You guys could ignore him, but it'd be your loss.

 

[Revven]

I already had said we'd take his criticism into consideration but right now we're not going to be making any drastic changes to the character especially when Skler specifically gave us those changes. If you're not happy, continuing to complain isn't going to make us change him right away when the opinion on him is very divided among the regions (I have read other threads on SWF stating otherwise about Link compared to your opinion A2Z). Hence why I myself would rather play the waiting game than rushing to change him because one person feels he isn't up to snuff.

 

[The Good Doctor]

I know its not a big deal, but the first sentence in the jigglypuff changes has its name as jiggypuff.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I already had said we'd take his criticism into consideration but right now we're not going to be making any drastic changes to the character especially when Skler specifically gave us those changes. If you're not happy, continuing to complain isn't going to make us change him right away when the opinion on him is very divided among the regions (I have read other threads on SWF stating otherwise about Link compared to your opinion A2Z). Hence why I myself would rather play the waiting game than rushing to change him because one person feels he isn't up to snuff.

Fair enough, hard enough to tell who was listening given the number of people who have a habit of missing points.

 

[rageagainst]

Define a lot.

Last time I checked, Link's buffs were extremely subtle. Except the F-tilt buff. Hell the Project M Dojo pretty much said that was the goal. They kept Link mostly the same, his recovery couldn't really be brought back to status quo, gave him a few minor power buffs.

I don't think you've actually played the game for yourself. Let alone saw some videos. I'll take this from the PM forums.

Shadic wrote: (http://www.smashmods.com/forum/thread-1980-page-1.html)
The response from Link mains have been quite positive, with changes requested specifically by Skler, and viewed quite positively from Kubuu.

Link is a character that has essentially been improved in every single way. The reason he didn't get a giant change in concept is because he realistically didn't need it. His sword is longer in Brawl, giving Link a range buff on almost all of his attacks. Many of his poor moves have been sped up or received changes in KB angle to work better. Down-Smash is easier to combo out of, and Up-Smash actually works properly, as examples.

I wouldn't worry about him, but if the demo proves that he needs additional work, he'll receive it.

 

[IYM!]

Define a lot.

Last time I checked, Link's buffs were extremely subtle. Except the F-tilt buff. Hell the Project M Dojo pretty much said that was the goal. They kept Link mostly the same, his recovery couldn't really be brought back to status quo, gave him a few minor power buffs, and that was pretty much it besides the better F-tilt, which is still slow enough that it's not going to really make Link "fast" or decent at pressure.

Furthermore, Fox and Sheik clearly have better recoveries than Link.

man i apreciate all than you are doing, in fact i am in agree with you in some points.

but...

you are comparing 2 diferents Links, Link :melee: and Link :brawl: have the same move set, but they are completly diferent characters.

BBrawl Link is awesome, in fact i love his arrows more than anything,also his secon swing in his Fsmash buff, he is the best incarnation of :brawl: Link.

P:M Link have a lot of improvements, most of they arent too much notorious for the casual Link eyes, but they are there, this Link is a better incarnation of the original :melee: Link



another bad thing is comparing these 2 Links, they come from diferent physical characteristics. BBral Link isnt better than P:M Link, and P:M Link isnt better than BBralw Link. is simple like that.


you are a smart guy, is so strange for you using the tier list comparation, BBrawl have like 2 years? since the projevt came out, P:M have only 2 weeks. is so early make a tier list of P:M



i hope dont ofend you with this post, again i am in agree in some of your points, and in disagree with others.

 

[The Upholder]

Yeah arrows sucked on hit. Arrow canceling + better on hit Arrows kinda helps, but is that really going to win Link matches?

Do foxes lasers win matches? No, they rack up a bit of extra percent, but mostly just force people to approach and give him something to do when he's looking for an opening. Arrows, while no falco laser, rack up a bit of percent as well, sort of more like peach's turnips. Then go farther but still have an arc, they're good against off stage opponents and in general aggravate them, just like a lot of projectiles.

And you do realize the lower knockback on Bombs and Boomerang is actually not a bad thing in combos? More important is generally Link's positioning.

Not when there's like 0 knock back earlier on. A boomerang hit has led to at least a nair 95% percent of the time for me, even at high percents.

Last time I checked, D-air was still not a safe move to throw out randomly and pretty much a combo tool or for punishing on reads. In fact throwing out Smashes in general outside of a combo or really strong bait (example: Falcon and F-smash) isn't wise. So again...how does this really make Link's onstage game any good, besides the implied reward suggested here?

This is true. I wasn't trying to imply it was good to completely randomly throw out, but it wasn't intended to be like that from the get go. It's safer now than it was, that's all I'm pointing out, and you can use it more often in a wider degree of situations.

Dude, how is it difficult to edgeguard Link's Up-B if he has to recover low? Ledgedrop B-air all day with Mario or Sheik. Ledgedrop Shinespike with Fox. Ledgedrop U-air with Ganon. Ledgedrop SideB with Marth. Furthermore I'm not sold on Link's arrows being as good as Doc's Pills for getting people to stop ledgestalling. Seriously, I'm not understanding where you're getting free recoveries like this, ESPECIALLY without the Hookshot grapple on walls.

sheik's bair is a bad example. That works on pretty much most characters in melee recovering from below. Falcon, marth, fox, falco, samus, mario bros, whatever. She is fantastic at edge guarding. Saying you have trouble recovering against her doesn't make it a bad recovery. mario is similar but not quite to the same degree. It's much safer for him to be caping, and if you see that coming you can grapple. I think the arrow does work, because like I said, I did it numerous times.

Even if the bair hits, link makes it back onto the stage with good DI against someone like sheik. Again, I was playing against vanz, who has a very good sheik. I never died earlier than like 110% and again, I didn't know how to bomb jump.

I think you're also stressing too much on his recovery. Not everyone needs a great recovery. Does falcon have a great recovery in melee? No, it's one of the worst. Is he still one of the top 8 or so characters? Yes. Is falco's recovery bad? Yes for the most part. But he's still one of the bast characters. I think link's recovery isn't bad, it's average, and that's fine with the way he is right now.

Anyways, I'm done with this. There's only been one P:M, and there was only one entrant who went Link (me), and I got 13th out of 36 or so entrants first time I played Link in P:M, and may have placed higher if I hadn't lost a match due to incredible bad luck on a stock.

There's no way to declare any character tourney viable/not at the moment, so this is all speculation.

Would you like to know why I picked Link? Everyone told me zelda was amazing, and there was a zelda player beating on people. I tried to play falcon and got 1 or 2 stocked. So I went link, first time ever playing him, and repeatedly 2/3stocked the guy.

edit: Also, if anyone is going to argue with A2Z, please realize he is not comparing bbrawl to P:M links directly. He is comparing their performance overall within their own metagame. Basically, he is saying that bbrawl link does better against other characters in bbrawl then PM link does in PM. An easier way would be to say he thinks link is a higher tier in bbrawl than in P:M. He's actually said this himself if you bothered to read his posts.

 

[rageagainst]

Do foxes lasers win matches? No, they rack up a bit of extra percent, but mostly just force people to approach and give him something to do when he's looking for an opening. Arrows, while no falco laser, rack up a bit of percent as well, sort of more like peach's turnips. Then go farther but still have an arc, they're good against off stage opponents and in general aggravate them, just like a lot of projectiles.

Not when there's like 0 knock back earlier on. A boomerang hit has led to at least a nair 95% percent of the time for me, even at high percents.



This is true. I wasn't trying to imply it was good to completely randomly throw out, but it wasn't intended to be like that from the get go. It's safer now than it was, that's all I'm pointing out, and you can use it more often in a wider degree of situations.



sheik's bair is a bad example. That works on pretty much most characters in melee recovering from below. Falcon, marth, fox, falco, samus, mario bros, whatever. She is fantastic at edge guarding. Saying you have trouble recovering against her doesn't make it a bad recovery. mario is similar but not quite to the same degree. It's much safer for him to be caping, and if you see that coming you can grapple. I think the arrow does work, because like I said, I did it numerous times.

Even if the bair hits, link makes it back onto the stage with good DI against someone like sheik. Again, I was playing against vanz, who has a very good sheik. I never died earlier than like 110% and again, I didn't know how to bomb jump.

I think you're also stressing too much on his recovery. Not everyone needs a great recovery. Does falcon have a great recovery in melee? No, it's one of the worst. Is he still one of the top 8 or so characters? Yes. Is falco's recovery bad? Yes for the most part. But he's still one of the bast characters. I think link's recovery isn't bad, it's average, and that's fine with the way he is right now.

Anyways, I'm done with this. There's only been one P:M, and there was only one entrant who went Link (me), and I got 13th out of 36 or so entrants first time I played Link in P:M, and may have placed higher if I hadn't lost a match due to incredible bad luck on a stock.

There's no way to declare any character tourney viable/not at the moment, so this is all speculation.

Would you like to know why I picked Link? Everyone told me zelda was amazing, and there was a zelda player beating on people. I tried to play falcon and got 1 or 2 stocked. So I went link, first time ever playing him, and repeatedly 2/3stocked the guy.

is there somewhere with footage of this P:m tourny. Guessing ur talkin about the one in pound 5?

 

[GHNeko]

holy **** this thread

stop it already you guys

 

[Vigilante]

Brawl is bad because of THREE EXCEEDINGLY SIMPLE REASONS.

1. Matchup imbalances
2. Planking
3. Infinites.


Those are all really, really, really easy to fix believe it or not. And you don't need a Melee engine for it at all.

You forget :

4. Floaty.
5. Tripping.
6. Lame character movesets.
7. Destroyed Falco and Gannon.
8. Lack of true comboes.
9. Very few neutral stages in comparison to non-neutral.
10. Bad choice of classic stages to bring back.
11. Bad Directional influence.
12. Spamable air-dodge with no directionality.
13. Camping friendly.
14. Easily punishable dodges.
15. Hanenbow.
16. Landing detection too high.
17. FLUDD.
18. Tornado, Boomerang, Wario Bike, Thrown shine, etc...
19. No Wavedashing.
20. No L-Cancel.
21. Short hop too high.
22. Fast fall. Where is a real fastfall?.
23. Where is the fun?

You csan respond with your oppinion, it won't change mine and mine won't change yours. But you can at least understand why no other mod pleases the likes of me.

 

[The Upholder]

is there somewhere with footage of this P:m tourny. Guessing ur talkin about the one in pound 5?

Yes, and footage should be getting uploaded this week.

 

[OverLade]

I remember when A2ZOMG said he was the best GaW in the world. After that stint any authoritative post by him has no credibility.

 

[A2ZOMG]

lol at RedHalberd being another one of the silly people who fails to read in between lines. Where is your reasoning? You don't read my posts literally enough. I always say exactly what I mean, and what you're repeating is a result of your poor memory. I said that I was the smartest, never the best, and I meant it exactly the way I said it.

 

[GHNeko]

this is a P:M thread

not an ego thread
not a bash a2zomg thread

shut up and get back on topic or talk about some other ****

****ing clowns

 

[Vigilante]

Just saying.

 

[MonkUnit]

I know its not a big deal, but the first sentence in the jigglypuff changes has its name as jiggypuff.

but jiggypuff sounds so cool D:

 

[Kanzaki]

A2Z's a troll, lawl at the people who haven't realized it yet xD

 

[A2ZOMG]

Just saying.

****ing Melee heads always trying to say they're always right, and failing at it. Get a life man.

It's like people fail to realize that I also play Melee competitively, and I'm actually supportive of this hack.

And if you don't believe it, I was equally, if not extra harsh to Balanced Brawl 1. You could check that old topic if you don't believe me. I hope it's clear that I'm generally a very serious person and very non-discriminating towards most individuals.

 

[GPDP]

Guys, quit calling A2ZOMG a troll. I don't agree with many of his claims, but a troll he is not. Don't throw that word around so carelessly.

Srsly, it's like I'm in TGWTG, where all constructive criticism is dismissed as trolling, and then people wonder why most of the reviewers there get inflated egos and their videos turn into manchildren dressing up in costumes.

Now let's drop it before it degenerates further.

 

[Cubelarooso]

I don't understand what's going on anymore.
We were talking about Link, right? A2Z gave some criticism, then Falco said they'd consider it. Then I don't know what happened, or what we're talking about now.

 

[standardtoaster]

Uploaded quite a few new videos! www.youtube.com/user/nonstandardtoaster

 

[GPDP]

I don't understand what's going on anymore.
We were talking about Link, right? A2Z gave some criticism, then Falco said they'd consider it. Then I don't know what happened, or what we're talking about now.

It's people aping the developers of this game and shielding it from criticism, is all. I see it happen all the time, and it results in a crappy product with a crappy fanbase of yes-men. I don't want Project M to degenerate into that.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Here's what's going on.

Many people don't know how to listen to me because I demand people to take me literally and word for word, and people tend to not like hearing exactly what's on my mind, because I'm always extremely serious and I avoid sugarcoating what I believe is true.

Simple as hell honestly. It's who I am, part of my diagnosis, and I'm not going to complain about the flack I get for it because I insist on explaining what I think is true.

 

[RK9]

Just played project Melee, and as a link mainer this is my input:
In comparison to Brawl, both links (BBrawl and Project M) give me a feel that I am actually a threat playing as Link. I didn't bother learning about the wavedash glide toss thingy so I obviously wasn't a fan of his recovery in Project M (although the great horizontal distance change was really helpful regardless), but at the same time the hookshot after the upB feels a little unnatural as a playstyle in BBrawl (even though it is helpful, the horizontal of the Project M upB sort of makes up for that).
In both cases, I think the bomb hit on yourself is required (so if someone could give me tips on that thanks ^^).
Overall, I think Link in project M is a better link from melee (obviously the point but just reiterating), while BBrawl's link is a buffed Brawl version of link. So technically, both link's aren't really comparable against each other, the fact of the matter is that in both new scenarios I have way more fun with link and stand way better a chance against everybody (in comparison to Brawl, Melee I didn't mind link to begin with because I find it is fun to win as the underdog that was made by nintendo to begin with). Of course, winning in brawl is link feels all the more better, but because of the lack in fun gameplay it's just... queer.

Both of the projects did a great job on link, personally I prefer the melee/project M version simply because his recovery tactics seem unnatural in BBrawl, but when he is on stage he is pretty well just as fun in both circumstances.
TY for good games.

 

[The Upholder]

It's people aping the developers of this game and shielding it from criticism, is all. I see it happen all the time, and it results in a crappy product with a crappy fanbase of yes-men. I don't want Project M to degenerate into that.

No, it's not. It's people reading his criticism,or at least I am, and refuting it because they disagree with it for numerous reasons. Jesus, you think criticism is always based in fact, especially in such a subjective topic like this (not trying to discredit a2z with that btw, just mean while the developers can be wrong, the customer is most certainly not always right)? Why are people so quick to call kissass and troll, he made arguments about what he believed was wrong with the character we (or at least myself) responded with our opinions and responses to his criticism. I don't see how it's confusing or there is any hidden meaning.

 

[Vigilante]

It's not that I don't want to listen, but you criticize stuff that is already in the game. Almost everything you wanted on Link is there and much more. And you are being a little agressive on the topic, so it's hard to know whether you are trolling or not to be honest.

Also, please don't generalize us "melee-heads" as having no lives. That's not really the nicest thing to say. If you want poeple to take you seriously, take a more restrained tone. You sounded like you thought you knew better than the highly specialised dev team.

Look, if you have concerns, just try to word them in ways where we'd actually want to discuss them. I'll apologize if you meant well for calling you a troll, but do calm down.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

I think everyone needs to take a step back and clear their head and any grudges they're holding right now

A2ZOMG. If there were 5 adjustments you could make to Link:M, what would they be? Im curious as I often used Link in Melee and vBrawl.

And to everyone in the thread, try not to reply to people trying to convince them they're wrong, especially when its just their personal opinion.

 

[Kanzaki]

Also, please don't generalize us "melee-heads" as having no lives. That's not really the nicest thing to say. If you want poeple to take you seriously, take a more restrained tone. You sounded like you thought you knew better than the highly specialised dev team.

I would like to point out, as a part of the Mario boards where A2Z frequents, during the match up threads, A2Z tends to tell the other players from their respective board that they're playing their characters wrong, and that they're bad. And that since A2Z have played said character once or twice, he thinks he's Jesus Christ with said charcater.

Edit - Not trying to flame/troll, just letting people know what kind of person, and what A2Z's posts tends to have.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Link above all needs his Z-air to be a stupidly good pressure tool. Comparable to what the Brawl Z-air was capable of. The Brawl Z-air accomplished its job by having virtually no landing lag, and what it could do was be used as a virtually safe approach and blockstring starter, AND it led to legit combos that could be hit confirmed on reaction. If the Z-air at least was easier to start combos with, that would be a good start. If the landing lag is going to remain the same, the damage should be increased, which would also increase the shieldstun as well, though when I think how stupid Falco's (and to a lesser extent Fox's) lasers are, I feel 10 frames of landing lag is too much for Z-air.

Buffing the Z-air is probably the easiest way to put him in line with the rest of the cast. Everything else I feel can remain like it is currently (or w/e the developers have in plan), though I would also slightly increase the size of the Boomerang hitbox to prevent it from whiffing in point blank range.

 

[Ulevo]

A2Z, I don't really care who you are, what your credentials may be, or how good or bad you may or may not be. If you have something productive and insightful to say, I'd listen to you either way.

Here's the issue. You can't come and claim a character you've handled for MAYBE a week or two (if you've been playing the alpha build, then I'll retract that) is bad. Assuming you even play the character, too. This is the primary reason why I and I suspect many others here not only feel the need to ignore your posts, but completely glance over them.

Honesty is good. But you're not being honest here, you're being rash and obnoxious in a very preemptive manner. I have my opinions on Link too, and I've even talked to Shadic here and there about the possible concerns I have. I don't come in here though and start giving pages of reasons why Link needs to be changed when no one has even had appropriate time to absorb his new gameplay yet.

I mean, you'd think this would be common sense. You sound like the posters on Dustloop who thought Carl in BlazBlue CT on its release was low tier.

 

[Sneak8288]

link is good... people just suck and wanna blame the developers for them being bad at the game

 

[IYM!]

about the projetiles, i am a agree (in part) with A2Z.


these moves are goods, but dont have so many reguards.

These items dont give very much damage, maybe, fixing his his damage rating, and hitbox will help.


Bombs: damage 8%-10%, buff: 10%-12%

Boomerang: damage 6%, when it back, it does 2 (or 6 in P:M? i am not sure), i5% when it hits close
buff, 9% (like SBB64) and a bigger hitbox

Arrows: it do 4%-5% uncharget, and ( i am not sure if the arrows in P:M do 18%, like melee or 12% like brawl) buff, 6%-7% uncharget and a bigger hitbox.


i make this sugerences for compencate the flaws than Link projectails have

1)you cant spam one move, you have to mix it to spam
2)Only the full charget arrow can go throug all the stage, and this isnt so fast
3)The "wall" than you can create, can easly skiped by fast characters.
4) all 3 projectile have an startinglag.

this is only a sugerence

 

[GPDP]

No, it's not. It's people reading his criticism,or at least I am, and refuting it because they disagree with it for numerous reasons. Jesus, you think criticism is always based in fact, especially in such a subjective topic like this (not trying to discredit a2z with that btw, just mean while the developers can be wrong, the customer is most certainly not always right)? Why are people so quick to call kissass and troll, he made arguments about what he believed was wrong with the character we (or at least myself) responded with our opinions and responses to his criticism. I don't see how it's confusing or there is any hidden meaning.

I'm going to respond to this, and subsequently drop out so as to avoid further derailing the thread.

Like I said, I too disagree with his criticisms, as I believe the demo just hasn't been out long enough for a definitive statement to be made on Link's metagame. However, criticism, even if rash or ill-informed, should not be misconstrued as trolling, but argued against. Indeed, you and others have done well to do this, but others choose to hand-wave away what he said as trolling, and to me it really does look like asskissing.

He would be trolling if he came in and said "lol link sux u guys don't kno wut ur doin," and didn't back up the claim. Even if he said some things I consider foolish, it's still not trolling.

Sorry if I sounded like I called everyone arguing against him asskissers, but I've seen what a community that treats a product or person as exempt from criticism can do, and I'd prefer if Project M did not go down that route.

 

[A2ZOMG]

A2Z, I don't really care who you are, what your credentials may be, or how good or bad you may or may not be. If you have something productive and insightful to say, I'd listen to you either way.

Here's the issue. You can't come and claim a character you've handled for MAYBE a week or two (if you've been playing the alpha build, then I'll retract that) is bad. Assuming you even play the character, too. This is the primary reason why I and I suspect many others here not only feel the need to ignore your posts, but completely glance over them.

Honesty is good. But you're not being honest here, you're being rash and obnoxious in a very preemptive manner. I have my opinions on Link too, and I've even talked to Shadic here and there about the possible concerns I have. I don't come in here though and start giving pages of reasons why Link needs to be changed when no one has even had appropriate time to absorb his new gameplay yet.

I mean, you'd think this would be common sense. You sound like the posters on Dustloop who thought Carl in BlazBlue CT on its release was low tier.

Here's the thing...this game is not nearly as new as you're trying to claim it is.

As much as it's true that Project M is an entirely new unofficial creation, the fact is the vast majority of the game is extremely representative of what was originally in Melee. And what we know works in Melee is common knowledge on these boards.

Yes this technically in name is not Melee. Yes if this was actually another completely different game, what I would be doing is jumping to conclusions without basis. But technicalities aren't what matter here.

I'm not a fan of people jumping to conclusions about a game that nobody has had time to absorb. Project M...is not like that. Granted there are still people who are slightly thrown off by the MINOR execution changes that are riddled in this game, but this is a game which in physics, options, and fundamentals is over 90% Melee, a game that we are extremely familiar with. And people who were legit at Melee are still legit in this game. The transition from Melee to this game is not like the transition from Brawl to Melee, which are in fact completely different games. It's more comparable to the transition from SSF4 to Arcade Edition, where within weeks after AE came out, it was pretty clear what to expect from the metagame.

I didn't even give pages of reasoning as to why Link sucked compared to everyone else. My original post was quite brief, though I don't care to dig it up right now.

It's nice to adhere to technicalities, but seriously, don't give me nonsense. We are smart players, and we can analyze tools. It's not as hard as you're trying to pretend it is.