Project M Social Thread

[FrozenHobo]

Mathematics: Mathematics, also known as Allah Mathematics, (born: Ronald M. Bean ) is a hip hop producer and DJ for the Wu-Tang Clan. As well as producing many tracks for the Wu-Tang Clan and for its solo and affiliate projects, Math has released two solo albums.

Google definitions.

HypeMath.

 

[Derkis]

e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0

lolwut.

e^(i*pi) = -1? D:

This just blew my mind.

 

[Dantarion]

lol brawl coders are dumb basically

If you think that coders wrote the ASM, youre the dumb one.

From http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hd7199ke(VS.80).aspx
, I don't really see why "correcting" the sign in the case of an overflow would be that important, since you're still going to end up with a wrong number if you do it, it'll just be a positive wrong number instead of a negative one...

/Clarification of pointless comment.

This actually may be right! The compiler may sense that multiplying two float values and adding them together could potentially cause an overflow. Checking for the overflow and then doing something about it is more work that just taking the absolute value (setting the sign bit), which is probably one of the quickest float operations possible

I didn't think about looking at it from that perspective, but it does make sense.

 

[Darkshooter]

e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0

***** please

 

[Ulevo]

Alright, so. I have a question for the developers.

A little while ago I had introduced the earlier videos of Project M to a friend of mine. This friend of mine has traveled with me to tournaments and enjoys both competitive and casual play. Upon showing him the videos of Project M and discussing what is being accomplished, I was surprised to hear him say he wasn't interested in it. When I questioned him as to why, he explained to me that he enjoys playing Brawl (specifically Brawl+/Brawl-) with more than just me and our group; he also plays with other people when he's away at college. His girlfriend, his roommates, and other casual players. He said that if he were to try and play these same people in a Melee environment, it would alienate these players and discourage them from wanting to play, especially if he acquired all the skills of advanced techniques just to keep up with me.

"They'd feel overwhelmed. They wouldn't want to play anymore because they can't keep up. I mean, usually I win because they're not very good, but they don't see me doing things that they can't understand or comprehend."

Although I was disappointed with his refusal to play, I can't exactly ignore his reasoning. He's right. Despite how hyped I am personally for this project, it is for these same reasons that I've avoided showing any of my other friends videos as well. I don't want them to get intimidated before they even have a chance to try it.

He said that he was tired of floating between games, from vBrawl, to Brawl+, to Brawl- and so on. He just wanted to have a game he can be happy with, and I'm sure a majority of this community (myself included) can relate to this sentiment. I'd like Project M to be the game I stick with, and I'm sure everyone here would agree.

I know that the buffer is going to be included in the options menu in replacement of the handicap, but it won't be tournament standard, and it will be turned off as the default. My question: Is it possible at all to include a code that offers automatic l-canceling as well?

I by no means want automatic l-canceling to be the standard. If it was included, I'd also like for it to be off on default, just like buffer. But I'd also like to be able to play with casual friends and other people who are unfamiliar to Smash in general, while at the same time easing them in to the game. I think offering automatic l-canceling as an option for those who want to use it would help accomplish this.

Editing the GCT to include automatic l-canceling per occasion is too inconvenient, and I don't want to include it permanently the way Brawl+ did because I want to hone my tech skill for when I play with other competitive players in Melee and Project M.

I mention this for personal reasons obviously, but I'm also bringing this up because I think it would be good to consider if you want to widen your player base for when you release the Project. If it is possible to code, I think it could keep the integrity of what this Project strives for, while making more room for more casual players to have a chance to play, too.

Side Note: I also had another idea. You know the beginning How-To-Play video as Brawl loads up before the title screen? I think we as a community should edit that video, or create a new one, specifically for Project M. Along with teaching the Smash basics, we can include brief tutorials on how to do techniques like l-canceling, wavedashing, jump cancel grabs, reflecting projectiles with powershields, and so on.

These were just some ideas I had. Thanks for your time and consideration.

 

[Crispy4001]

If you could play 64 or Melee for fun with people who weren't into Smash enough to L-cancel, you should be able to play Project M with people who aren't into Smash enough to L-cancel.

If they want to be good enough to compete on your level, they should try to learn to play it at your level. Like you would in any other fighting game.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

I'd like to make that video happen, though the PMBR probably will do that.

Since you guys found the constants for sensitivity, please for the love of melons, make the sensitivity exactly like Melee(Regarding the analog stick).

I cannot stress how clunky no buffer with Brawl's sensitivity settings felt when I forst tried B+ a long time ago.

 

[Ulevo]

If you could play 64 or Melee for fun with people who weren't into Smash enough to L-cancel, you should be able to play Project M with people who aren't into Smash enough to L-cancel.

If they want to be good enough to compete on your level, they should try to learn to play it at your level. Like you would in any other fighting game.

This is an idealistic point of view, and I agree with it. However, a large portion of my mates dropped Smash completely specifically because of how I dominated them in Melee. They returned to Smash when Brawl was released, and dropped it again when they found out it was garbage and revolved around chain grabs and Meta Knight. Then they picked it up again when projects like Brawl+ and Brawl- emerged, and they continue to play. I'm confident they would enjoy Project M because they enjoyed Melee, and all they wanted from Brawl's release was what everyone else wanted; Melee with more characters, stages and music. I'd just like to be able to transition them in to the game.

To give you an example of this, most of them when they picked up Brawl- had to use the default Brawl buffer of 10 or 100% because they kept making mistakes when they buffer was kept at 0%. Overtime though, they gradually dropped it down and now they play at around 30% of Brawls default, and they sometimes play with no buffer at all and do just fine. I'd like for them to be able to do this with l canceling as well, so that they learn to enjoy the game first before they get in to the inner workings of how to be a better player.

 

[kaizo13]

...i don't even know what to say

I'd like for them to be able to do this with l canceling as well, so that they learn to enjoy the game first before they get in to the inner workings of how to be a better player.

this logic is very flawed

1. you can't make them "learn" to enjoy the game

2. they won't become better players by using auto L-canceling

3. why?

 

[Dantarion]

Your friends probably suck at the game and think L-Canceling is the main reason why.

And the moment we add auto-l canceling, they will complain about how wavedashing is too hard and thats why you can beat them...or the character you play is why you beat them.

Honestly, if ur friends don't want to learn how to beat you, they never will, and half lag on aerials isnt gonna help them.


Ttldr, some casual players will remain casual players no matter how easy the inputs are. There is more to the game than AT's, and there are very many good players that arent crazy-technical.

 

[Strong Badam]

in short, no.

 

[Shell]

An Auto-L-Cancel code is possible to do, but might have implications on splitting the community. We will discuss it more in the future.

As for your friends, I imagine they would get turned off by wavedashing/landing, and a bunch of other complicated character-specific ATs, right? Because as far as ATs go, L-Canceling is actually one of the most straightforward and easiest to learn.

 

[Ulevo]

Your friends probably suck at the game and think L-Canceling is the main reason why.

And the moment we add auto-l canceling, they will complain about how wavedashing is too hard and thats why you can beat them...or the character you play is why you beat them.

Honestly, if ur friends don't want to learn how to beat you, they never will, and half lag on aerials isnt gonna help them.


Ttldr, some casual players will remain casual players no matter how easy the inputs are. There is more to the game than AT's, and there are very many good players that arent crazy-technical.

They aren't very good at the game, you're correct. They don't think l canceling is the reason, I'm just promoting the idea of offering an in game option to help translate players from vBrawl to Project M. I was under the impression that that was the entire reason why the buffer was included in the first place, and why it wasn't simply excluded the way many people had suggested it should be.

As you said, enabling half lag on aerials 100% of the time isn't going to help them beat me. I'm not really encouraging this for that reason. But I feel that if they don't feel like l canceling is a necessity or requirement in order to play, they will spend more time enjoying the game and less time worrying about trying to l cancel every aerial they use.

This isn't going to help them wave dash or space better, but it encourages less experienced players to play. It's kinda like enabling easy specials in BlazBlue. No one in competitive play uses them, but it doesn't hurt to have them there for the newbie that wants to play and use flashy or cool moves and combos and enjoy themselves. With any luck this manifests solid interest in the game for that particular player, and they become motivated to learn to play competitively without the easy specials.

I won't be heartbroken if this idea isn't considered. However I find it very contradicting that buffer would be considered at all if that is the case.

...i don't even know what to say



this logic is very flawed

1. you can't make them "learn" to enjoy the game

2. they won't become better players by using auto L-canceling

3. why?

I'm not trying to make them "learn" to enjoy Smash. They already do. Melee requires a lot of technical feets in order to play reasonably well, and that happens to be one of its most redeeming qualities as a game. But I also think it can turn people off from it rather quickly if they don't have a chance to become properly exposed to the experience. I'm just brainstorming a possible solution to help aid that. I have no intentions of trying to make ****ty players in to good ones, it just doesn't happen like that.


Anyway, I've made my suggestion and said my piece. It's been read, so I'm happy. There's no need to get in to a huge debacle over it, the team will consider it if they would like to, and they won't if they don't. So lets leave it at that.

 

[Dantarion]

Buffer is an option that was taken away from vBrawl, L-Canceling is a feature added from Melee.

Buffer inherently effects ALL of the gameplay, L-Canceling only affects when you land in the middle of an aerial.

No other fighting game has buffer for all input, as far as I know. (Some have it for reversal windows, techs, etc, but not for attacks)

If Street Fighter 4 had a 3 frame buffer, learning ANY kind of timing would be useless. I think the hardest thing in Project M that I can think of off the top of my head is SHDF with Marth, and I dont even think it requires perfect timing, there might be a 2-3 frame window

 

[Luxor]

An 'easy mode' option so my little brother could play it would be cool.

 

[shanus]

It's not just the consideration, its also whats currently available (buffer code already made long ago). Making a toggle-able L-cancel code is something not currently coded, and is ASM-specific. Our decision then is constrained by our resources. Dantarion is our *only* ASM coder, which means it has to wait till after DI fixes, landing detection, etc. Regardless, it's something we'll discuss, but I can't promise it stands much of a chance due to higher priorities.

I can agree to an epic How-to-Play video though! That'd be sweet,

 

[vectorace]

I can agree to an epic How-to-Play video though! That'd be sweet,

I suggested something like this before but i was told you can only switch the videos if you use Riivolution. though if they were wrong i would love to see that happen id even help as much i could with such a thing.

Edit: darn ima punch my self for new page

 

[Ulevo]

It's not just the consideration, its also whats currently available (buffer code already made long ago). Making a toggle-able L-cancel code is something not currently coded, and is ASM-specific. Our decision then is constrained by our resources. Dantarion is our *only* ASM coder, which means it has to wait till after DI fixes, landing detection, etc. Regardless, it's something we'll discuss, but I can't promise it stands much of a chance due to higher priorities.

Yeah. Limited time and resources is understandable.

I can agree to an epic How-to-Play video though! That'd be sweet,

This is awesome. I'd do it myself if I knew how to do any video editing.

 

[Luxor]

We can always storyboard it out right here lol.

 

[Phantom1987]

that's why I play brawl against my friends and melee against pros (I don'r play brawl to a competetive level) xD

 

[Akuma2120]

An 'easy mode' option so my little brother could play it would be cool.

I have a similar situation, if there's something like L-cancelling in my brother won't even bother, yea he's that picky about anything that could be a slight annoyance, same goes for any of my other friends who would actually play a fighting game, thus limiting me to CPU fights once P:M is out -_-

Still looking forward to it regardless

 

[kaizo13]

.....i think he was joking Akuma lol

atleast i hope so

 

[Ulevo]

Since this was made by EternalYoshi, I don't think the dev's are unfamiliar with this (if it isn't already included in Project M)... But if it hasn't been added in, this needs to be included:

http://forums.kc-mm.com/Gallery/BrawlView.php?Number=12769

Snake has three taunts that are unnecessarily identical, and I downloaded and tried these out. They're very, very cool, and fitting to Snakes character.

* Waits for "they're already in, *****!" *

 

[curry9186]

Since this was made by EternalYoshi, I don't think the dev's are unfamiliar with this (if it isn't already included in Project M)... But if it hasn't been added in, this needs to be included:

http://forums.kc-mm.com/Gallery/BrawlView.php?Number=12769

Snake has three taunts that are unnecessarily identical, and I downloaded and tried these out. They're very, very cool, and fitting to Snakes character.

* Waits for "they're already in, *****!" *

Just imagined TH+ doing cigarette cancels. You should include these now.

 

[Luxor]

.....i think he was joking Akuma lol

I was dead serious, actually. Lots of people would appreciate an easy mode option.

Also +1 support for improved Snake taunts.

 

[hotdogturtle]

There already is an easy mode. It's called "launch Brawl from the disc channel".

 

[GPDP]

I support the addition of an Auto L-Cancel toggle. Of course, I would never use it unless I'm showing the game off to a newbie to Smash or a Brawl player, but the option would be nice to have nevertheless.

Of course, other things like landing detection take priority by far, and I won't lose sleep if such an option never makes it in. But still, options are good IMO.

Edit: Seriously, what's with all the passive-aggressive hostility to the idea? We all know such an option would never become tourney-standard, and again, proponents realize if it is ever considered, it will only be after the game is fully complete. But some of you react as if we're committing a heresy of some sort for even thinking about it.

 

[GP&B]

ALR toggle would be a rather nice idea although it's true that this doesn't add a large amount to a player's technical game at all. To make any good use of that, there's a need for being good at short hopping timings, fast falled aerials, and of course, the combination of both which creates SHFFLing. Wavedashing is another competent that takes time merely to control, let alone implement properly into your game. ALR and optional Buffer only help a little bit.

And of course neither would be tourney standard.

Also, I did not know about those Snake taunts; I will happily download those right away.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

REALLY? You guys didn't know????

Anyway, If you want to add it to P:M Snake, you guys have to change the coding of the taunts.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Just imagined TH+ doing cigarette cancels. You should include these now.

Taking a smoke break in the middle of my combos? Being such a **** than you have time to give someone lung cancer via second hand smoke while kicking their teeth in? What could be better?!

brb learning Snake.

 

[FrozenHobo]

 

[GP&B]

Those are always the crappiest dreams.

 

[FrozenHobo]

 

[AER0]

Random question but once P:M is finished, how will the public gain access? download via sd card and homebrew?

 

[XkaruX]

Random question but once P:M is finished, how will the public gain access? download via sd card and homebrew?

This question should be in the FAQ, It's been asked a lot.

 

[Dantarion]

Riivolution and GeckoOS will probably be the two officially support methods of launching it.
If you want to use some other crazy software on your Wii, it will probably be unsupported.

While we may put a list of ahem..."launchers" known to work with P:M, the installation guides and installer will be based around using Riivolution or GeckoOS.

However, one idea we have had ois to use the "pm" directory instead of "pf". That way, our installer can do magic without having to worry about conflicting with other files. Also, it would allow for a set of Melee textures if the P:M team decides to release one.

 

[Ulevo]

Kind of irrelevant, but I figured I'd ask here since Mr. Dantarion Wizard is here and there's enough traffic flowing through here for anyone else who might know the answer. Is it possible at all to "expand" on the amount of available character slots in which character textures can go over? Much in the same way that you have 41 stages, but you can add more by using Phantom Wings code? And if you can't currently, is it assumed to be possible in the future?

 

[hotdogturtle]

However, one idea we have had ois to use the "pm" directory instead of "pf". That way, our installer can do magic without having to worry about conflicting with other files.

And waste even more space on our SD cards!

Good thing I don't intend on playing Brawl any other way once PM comes out.

 

[Dantarion]

Last time I checked, most people have 2G SD cards, which cost...how much?
http://www.amazon.com/SanDisk-Secure-Digital-2048-P36-Package/dp/B000N3P5O0
Oh right, five dollars.

How big will Project M be? Oh right, under 300MB TOPS, and thats pushing it.

That leaves a lot of space for stuff.
Oh, and if you have an original disk, you can use Riivolution
http://www.amazon.com/SanDisk-Cruzer-Flash-Drive-SDCZ36-004G-A11/dp/B001T9EYFI
8 Bucks for 4gigs? Nice.
And if you manage to fill up 4GB of space with Wii stuff, I will be impresssed

fun fact! Dantarion does not have an SD card, and hasnt had one for like 4 months or so.

 

[GP&B]

I actually have a 1 gig SD and found that I still have a third of the space left and that's when considering that my sound takes up 457 MB of it. Trying to top out 2 gigs would be pretty difficult.