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Project M Social Thread

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Strong Badam

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some of Sheik's animations in comparison to Melee are slightly different/less effective such as ftilt.

though i think you're all silly for discounting wall cling so quickly. you can double jump from wall-cling in 1 frame. press Y or X while wall clinging.

also I am against vBrawl pivot grab
 

Supreme Dirt

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Yeah, vBrawl pivot grab is kind of silly. Whereas a lot of standing and dash grabs are pretty good in matching where the character is grabbing (except Ganon, why the hell doesn't his range extend to his hand?) pivot grabs involve a lot of teleporting.
 

GHNeko

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also I am against vBrawl pivot grab
you are a bad person

Yeah, vBrawl pivot grab is kind of silly. Whereas a lot of standing and dash grabs are pretty good in matching where the character is grabbing (except Ganon, why the hell doesn't his range extend to his hand?) pivot grabs involve a lot of teleporting.
>teleporting

wait what
 

Supreme Dirt

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Go perfectly space Dedede's pivot grab in vBrawl. Or alternatively use a visible hitbubble hack with even Ganondorf. Snake is another good example come to think of it.
 

Juushichi

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In the case of boost pivoting (grab obvi), sometimes it may seem like the character teleported into the grab.

In reality, it only means that when the grab came out, the hurt and hitboxes overlapped and the grabber kept momentum from the boost pivot and dragged them along.

It's awesome for Falco.

:phone:
 

leelue

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Strongbad, I 100% agree. At least they should have less range.

pivot < standing < Dash
optimal range distribution
Dash grabs should have more range than standing grabs to make up for having all of that lag. It's a simple trade-off. pivot grabs might need to have the least because true technique has the most utility. Once again, it is a simple trade-off.
With dash/standing grabs, unless there is a reason to do a dash grab (samus notwithstanding) then you lose depth by reducing complexity (it just makes jcg the norm and promotes even more meaningless finger acrobatics)

I'm also against RARing, because it erases the line between facing forwards and backwards (producing less depth by reducing complexity).
Same with dash cancelling (i think that's the term, I believe. Instantly crouching to be able to act from standing). Less depth by reducing complexity.
 

Supreme Dirt

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Marth's grab matches his hand, though. It looks like a teleport because he immediately leans back when he grabs them.
 

JCaesar

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Dash grabs should have more range than standing grabs to make up for having all of that lag.
They do. In Melee, Brawl, and Project M. I'm not sure I've seen any character whose dash grab didn't have significantly more range than their standing grab (and as the guy who's been adjusting nearly every hitbox size/offset by hand, I would know).

pivot grabs might need to have the least because true technique has the most utility.
That makes no sense. Standing grabs have far more utility than pivot grabs because they can be used in many more situations. Even though they have the least range, standing grabs are without a doubt the most useful type of grab because of the low lag and ability to use them out of shield and jumpstart.

I'm also against RARing, because it erases the line between facing forwards and backwards (producing less depth by reducing complexity).
Same with dash cancelling (i think that's the term, I believe. Instantly crouching to be able to act from standing). Less depth by reducing complexity.
More (non-overpowering) options = less depth? In what world? You can make that argument for L-canceling maybe because you never really don't want to L-cancel, but that does not apply here. (note: This isn't meant to start an argument about L-canceling. It's here to stay)
 

leelue

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It's not so much that it is giving you more options, its giving you all of them. I am referring to depth as a way of working within restrictions. If options a and b can be done but b requires you to have to jump through a hoop (some kind of time restriction besides just the startup time for the move) to get the payoff, then it adds another choice and an extra variable. With RARing, the extra hoop doesn't exist once you know how to do it. You just do it, at a negligible loss of time and momentum.

The options existed under the old system but the act of turning around/stopping was a hurdle that you had to account for. This is what I mean by depth.

I dont know Who misinformed me about the grab lengths, but since I assume you know what you're talkin about its all good.
Also, samus has less range in her dash grab, to make up for less lag. Just fot completions sake.


We all know about L cancelling, yeah. Stupid barrier to entry. Stupid fanbase.
 

GHNeko

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Go perfectly space Dedede's pivot grab in vBrawl. Or alternatively use a visible hitbubble hack with even Ganondorf. Snake is another good example come to think of it.
then the teleporting isnt new. It happens in Melee too.

Also leelue doesn't understand completely see the depth in new options in P:M.
 

GaretHax

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When you define depth I'm sure its perfectly simple to make anything fit however you wish seamlessly. My definition of depth is maintenence of options in any situation. (which is pretty much the opposite of yours apparently) Wouldn't depth, by definition, refer to how deep somthing is? How does adding confines and reducing options "working within restrictions" make somthing deeper... Thats like making the container thinner, but taller and saying it holds more water man. (Not to mention the obvious contradiction going on by saying adding more imputs and options reduces complexity in the first place >_>)

Just my two cents. Also lol @ people who think PM doesn't get advice from high-skill level players and melee/brawl vets alike.

All good Leelue, I suppose it would make people have to adapt and understand characters better in order to play on higher level, but I would argue that it only creates long lists of "premier" techniques and strategies and in the long run reduces the uniqueness and individuality of high-level play.
(which melee has a ****-ton of)

Edit #5000 or so; I primarily play melee/pm BECAUSE of the freedom of movement it offers compared to other fighters. No premade combos, no always facing opponent, I honestly can't play any other fighter and have anywhere near as much fun.
 

leelue

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That was joking soru
We all know that it isn't necessary, and a needless barrier to entry. Its exclusion would also alienate a whole bunch of people and its existence also is a big part of melee so it won't be leaving pm.
in any case, that isn't even up for discussion. I just think it is sad that they have to. I don't mind that they will.

and my definition of depth comes from a different genre of gaming, so its probably different. I'm not sure what word I'm looking for then.
 

iLink

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Strongbad, I 100% agree. At least they should have less range.

pivot < standing < Dash
optimal range distribution
Dash grabs should have more range than standing grabs to make up for having all of that lag. It's a simple trade-off. pivot grabs might need to have the least because true technique has the most utility. Once again, it is a simple trade-off.
With dash/standing grabs, unless there is a reason to do a dash grab (samus notwithstanding) then you lose depth by reducing complexity (it just makes jcg the norm and promotes even more meaningless finger acrobatics)

I'm also against RARing, because it erases the line between facing forwards and backwards (producing less depth by reducing complexity).
Same with dash cancelling (i think that's the term, I believe. Instantly crouching to be able to act from standing). Less depth by reducing complexity.
I'm highly against removing basically all of that. Pivot grabs aren't all that great when you take into account that you can do a RAR and jump cancel grab. A pivot grab has the added benefit of a bit more range but definitely more costly if you miss.

I agree dash grabs are pretty useless with jump canceled grabs.

Also the way you used "losing depth by reducing complexity" kinda irked me. I could say eliminating options is counter productive and you lose depth by reducing complexity. On the contrary, I think things like RAR produce a lot of interesting options which adds depth. Only thing you are basically suggesting is putting barriers on gameplay.
 

JCaesar

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It's not so much that it is giving you more options, its giving you all of them. I am referring to depth as a way of working within restrictions. If options a and b can be done but b requires you to have to jump through a hoop (some kind of time restriction besides just the startup time for the move) to get the payoff, then it adds another choice and an extra variable. With RARing, the extra hoop doesn't exist once you know how to do it. You just do it, at a negligible loss of time and momentum.

The options existed under the old system but the act of turning around/stopping was a hurdle that you had to account for. This is what I mean by depth.
That's just my point. Because of the fact that you have to stop and turn around to jump backwards (and you can't even do a backwards dash jump unless you moonwalk), things like approaching with bair or cross-ups with fair aren't real options in Melee, not the way they are in Project M. By definition, that is less depth (unless the new options were overpowering and you would never use the old options, which obviously isn't the case).
 

leelue

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I suppose then that I would prefer if RARing took an extra couple frames. But that is probably not editable and not worth the work anyway.
Don't get me wrong. I like RARing. It's yummy. I just wish it had a tradeoff.
 

BinAly

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I think that leelue tried to say this:

When you add another option that is significantly easier to do and more powerful than several others that were already implemented, you reduce depth by making the other options useless.

His point is that RARing removes the need to use other techniques that could achieve the same result, but were harder to do.

While I agree that RARing makes some things easier, I do not agree on the part that it makes other options useless.
Also, I'm a Melee veteran that can't even play without my own gamecube controller and my own lagless TV, however, I foung RARing very intuitive and did not have any problems including it on my playstyle.

We all know about L cancelling, yeah. Stupid barrier to entry. Stupid fanbase.
I do not agree with that assumption. L-Cancelling is a purposefully introduced Dexterity Barrier, meant to give players willing to get better an edge over the ones that aren't.

I will give you another example that might change your point of view:

In DotA, there is a limited screen-space, and no Zoom-Out options. The creators of Heroes of Newerth, a DotA clone, kept the same screen-space, without any zoom-out options.
This forces players to use the mouse to navigate more, and also reduce their ability to spot incomming attacks and other things.
Several people complained about it, saying that it was an old engine limitation that should have been abandoned by now. Still, the developers kept it, because it favors palyers that are better at Map-Awareness, quicker with the mouse, and overall better at the game.

It is the same thing with several other games. Soccer only allows you to play with your foot. Basket forces you to bounce your ball while moving.

Those are all Ability Barriers, either Mental or Physical, meant to favor players that spent time getting better at those games.
 

BinAly

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BinAly was fairly close to my sentiment. Again, I like to rar. It makes my ganon happy.
I wouldn't worry too much with RARing. If, after the release, this technique proves to break the game and remove options, I'm sure the developers won't mind removing it.

I don't think that will be the case, but if it happens, they will act.
 

GaretHax

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Rar --> Wavedash Offstage --> Ganon back/down-air or side/down-b, hell yes.
Favorite edgeguard short of double gannon D-air of death.
 

MonkUnit

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i should do that more


btw at the hotel we're staying at this weekend, there is going to be wifi there so we may be able to streamm

the stream would have bad sound though due to us having to use a projector instead of an actual tv though

note that this is not a confirmed stream, just something that may happen to be and look for it :p
 

Sneak8288

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Lol at the Sheik wall cling arguement, its just a glorified wall jump. It seriously isn't that good and is the last thing u need to worry about vs sheik

:phone:
 

GPDP

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Am I too late to hop on the RAR-is-awesome-for-Manondorf bandwagon?

Seriously, dat RAR'd bair. Best edgeguarding tool evar.
 

GaretHax

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Reverse Aireal Rush, Just turn around when dashing and then jump+attack. All charcters can do it.
Attack does not = aerial thar supreme dirt though it does allude to it XD My bad there. I got ninja'd anywho
 

Supreme Dirt

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RAR is simply preserving your momentum while turning around and jumping. Doesn't have to be followed with an aerial.

RAR FAirs are amusing.

RAR Wizkick is trolling.
 
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