Project M Social Thread

[DrinkingFood]

smash bros

 

[cannedbread]

i love that game

 

[DrinkingFood]

best party game ever

 

[BJN39]

Stingers, Sheik is definitely better than Zelda. I've played the best Zeldas on the east coast.... Zelda's best move is down+b.

And I notice that when Sheik/Zelda mains play in tournament using Zelda and are having any difficulty, they immediately switch to Sheik for the remainder of the entire set. Because Sheik is a monster in P:M. She's amazing.

A bit late now, but In this part of the post, while I do think Shiek is very slightly better than Zelda, Zelda is by no means obviously worse, or really maybe no worse than shiek at all.

The subject of zeldas switching to Shiek, that could partly be blamed on peoples' current lack of knowledge of what Zelda can do, and huge knowledge of what Shiek can do. So some players turn to Shiek for help. Because that's what they already know, and it's easier than trying to play zelda in a difficult MU.*

Also, Shiek fares slightly better against more common characters, while zelda plays good against more, but not limited to, less commonly played characters.

On the subject of you vs The best zeldas, in your opinion of Zelda you seem to have partially based it on these battles, which makes me question:

How many battles vs them did you have? What character(s) were you? (Bad MU for Zelda/you?) how well did you beat them? How many times? Is your play style unique enough to throw them off? We're these battles friendlies?

Do you see where I'm going? You might be basing you opinion of Zelda on a Biased experience, probably not, I'm just bringing this up because while Zelda is not as good as peoples salty experiences say, (heck, she could use a couple tweaks in the manner of a buff) she still is a great character.*

I'm not questioning your skill or anything, I just think you might've based some of your reasoning for your opinion of Zelda on those battles, and them whoop that out as "proof" when the evidence might be slightly biased.

Feel free to prove me wrong.

 

[GP&B]

now twist it up some

smesh brus

 

[DMG]

But it does refer to Magus. Guess who made Ike?

Random Ike Guy??

 

[cannedbread]

intelligent systems co

 

[leelue]

Eli and I played Ryoko and Zhime at a tournament in Maryland. I played sonic. Eli played.. Idk. In any case, I beat zhime by 5 or 6 stock total (he did finally switch to sheik but it was too late) and I beat ryoko... until he switched to sheik.

Edit
Eli either played DK, Ike, or Mario. Probably.

Edit
Ryoko and Zhime are to my knowledge the best zeldas within range of here.

 

[BJN39]

They are the best zeldas. And thanks for your imput.

Sonic is an awful MU for zelda tho...

Edit: not discrediting you. Sorry

 

[DMG]

Pick a Smash attack with Zelda

I guarantee you will beat HA or Side B with it

 

[BJN39]

Well, it sounds that simple, but from the battles I saw of Leelue v Zhime on YT he easily overwhelms and punishes her. (yes I know that's what sonic does to people who haven't played one before, but this overwhelming is legit.) Fsmash kills her super quick too, like, wow quick.

This is actually an optimistic MU for Sonic in my opinion.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I don't mind if people disagree with my analysis of Sheik.

My goal is to retain the core of Melee Sheik in the new game, not so much balance. If she winds up 12th as a result of her design simply not holding up in the new environment even with the grab buff once the dust settles a bit then fine. I'm not going to come back and complain about it. But I want her to feel like Melee Sheik because that's what was advertised and it's unfair to allow previous Melee characters that luxury but then deny it to her.

Okay so someone mentioned an issue with using GAW's d-throw in that there is a CG to 50% on Link with it. A few questions. I know port priority affects ground bounce CGs. Is this as higher port, lower port, and can this be manipulated to mitigate the effect of the CG? I know GAW either with or without port priority can CG Sheik with d-throw to 43 but otherwise it goes less or something. If port priority is not a factor in ground bounce CGs in PM, then can this be fixed or mitigated by either altering where Sheik's grab hitbox is (lowering it) or by increasing the KB on the throw itself? What about modifying trajectory?

Looking at this from a different perspective, I want to ask if a CG to 50% really that big of a deal. Is there any way that Link can be platformed prematurely on some levels to mitigate this? Also, given what some of the other characters can do with throw, is this really a big deal? To add, if this issue is only isolated to a few characters (I'll say 1-4) then is that really such a big deal? It's still a notable nerf from her NTSC throw on whatever character (she goes to 80%+ on Link with her NTSC throw, GAW's 50% doesn't seem so bad comparatively). It's almost guaranteed to not KO because the defender can DI to centerstage, eat the fair from the middle for 63% total combo damage, and then probably not even go offstage. I don't believe 0-63% is game breaking nor do I feel it makes a MU unwinnable on its own. A lot of characters can do that anyway (although freestyle combos obviously require more skill than set CG but it's very possible to do 63% on Link in one go with a bunch of chars). I also don't see what's wrong with her having a few good MUs if she has counter MUs vs other characters to balance this.

 

[iLink]

Would it be possible to make sheik's dthrow similar to MK's from brawl? What I mean by this is if they DI up or towards you, they are usually too high to actually regrab, but you can get a few hits in with a combo. If they DI away from you, you can run and follow their DI for a regrab or dash attack. The distance they travel would keep the CG to a minimum.

I dunno just throwing out some ideas.

 

[KirbyKaze]

That's basically her NTSC d-throw vs Marth

 

[DMG]

MK Dthrow in Brawl works that way because of how floaty everyone is. There is no fair way to balance that for spacies, heavies that fall fast, heavies that fall slower, medium weight floaties, etc. You may get it to be "fair" on say Mario, but then it's super wack vs heavier characters.

 

[ELI-mination]

Well I only played Zhime in tournament. First match I went DK, second match I went Ike, it was 2-0 but close.

With Ryoko, I played him extensively in friendlies the night before the tournament at JC's house. I used many characters and he used Zelda, Sheik, and Peach as far as I can remember. When he was using Sheik/Zelda, he would switch between the characters periodically mid-match.

When I played Ryoko in tournament the next day, he went exclusively Sheik against my DK.

Also, Leelue uses a bit of Zelda, and I've used Zelda myself a bit. I have absolutely no insecurities or delusions about my skill level. I'm just telling you my opinion, and the fact that I have this experience counts for something.

 

[leelue]

Sonic zelda is awesome for sonic

 

[BJN39]

Well I only played Zhime in tournament. First match I went DK, second match I went Ike, it was 2-0 but close.

With Ryoko, I played him extensively in friendlies the night before the tournament at JC's house. I used many characters and he used Zelda, Sheik, and Peach as far as I can remember. When he was using Sheik/Zelda, he would switch between the characters periodically mid-match.

When I played Ryoko in tournament the next day, he went exclusively Sheik against my DK.

Also, Leelue uses a bit of Zelda, and I've used Zelda myself a bit. I have absolutely no insecurities or delusions about my skill level. I'm just telling you my opinion, and the fact that I have this experience counts for something.

Thanks for the input, I didn't think you had any insecurities or delusions.

You may believe what you'd like IDM, but I'm going to continue studying Zelda for the remainder of 2.1 and continue to say and think she's good until I fully discover otherwise.

Hey, I'd battle you over wifi (even though you'd slaughter me... At least, I think it was you who had "Let's wifi sometime" or something similar in a sig of yours.)

Sonic zelda is awesome for sonic

Yes times 10.

Srsly the advantage is not huge, but it's trouble for Zelda.

Also, spinspinspinspin.

Edit: I think this MU might get better for Zelda in 2.5 bcuz' nerfed spinspin.

 

[Stevo]

Lots of the changes to zelda are cute, such as her B moves being better, but the changes that matter are

-Faster Grab
-Harder to DI out of multi hit moves
-her spot dodge is really good
-her kicks are actually weaker than melee, but now they have another sweetspot which makes them stronger than melee. I wouldn't really call this a buff or a nerf either way. It does make a difference in her play, though.
-Side-b kinda matters

Anyway, maybe I'm missing something else, but in my mind, she is just melee zelda, but has fewer useless moves. It makes her more of a real character, but doesn't necessarily make her good. She also wrecks people who haven't figured out how to play against her just like Melee Zelda does, so that makes her seem better than she is at first.

Sheik is better.

 

[BJN39]

Lots of the changes to zelda are cute, such as her B moves being better, but the changes that matter are

-Faster Grab
-Harder to DI out of multi hit moves
-her spot dodge is really good
-her kicks are actually weaker than melee, but now they have another sweetspot which makes them stronger than melee. I wouldn't really call this a buff or a nerf either way. It does make a difference in her play, though.
-Side-b kinda matters

Anyway, maybe I'm missing something else, but in my mind, she is just melee zelda, but has fewer useless moves. It makes her more of a real character, but doesn't necessarily make her good. She also wrecks people who haven't figured out how to play against her just like Melee Zelda does, so that makes her seem better than she is at first.

Sheik is better.

Yeah, one of her best strengths currently is not playing absolutely perfect against her.

I'll post more later.

 

[Stevo]

Yeah, one of her best strengths currently is not playing absolutely perfect against her.

everyone loves kicking a falco in the face while he is pillaring your shield. Dead at 40%?
YESZ!

 

[DrinkingFood]

<doofgniknirD>: what if Marth bent his arm then took it off still bent and used it like a boomerang
<doofgniknirD>: that way he could grab as far as Link could throw
<Pinkie_Pie>: <doofgniknirD>: what if Marth bent his arm then took it off still bent and used it like a boomerang @

 

[ELI-mination]

Couldn't have been me, I don't play wifi lol.

Nobody is saying Zelda is bad. I'm just saying Sheik is better and not by a very small amount. It just seems to me that if Zelda can't get the job done, people will fall back on Sheik. It doesn't really seem to work in reverse, though.

 

[cannedbread]

zelda vs marth or
sheik vs marth

sheik vs puff or
zelda vs puff

 

[Onomanic]

Recently, I've been going rather hard on the Brawl ATs, using stuff like RAR way more than usual, DAC, and especially auto canceling. I was a pretty adamant Link main in Brawl (God help me) so it's kind of habit. Does auto-canceling work with any other characters like it does in Brawl? I know it was in Melee but was certainly not as prominent because of L-canceling.

 

[ClinkStryphart]

any streams tonight?

 

[drsusredfish]

I need to get to a tournament so i can get on that best Zeldas list.

 

[cannedbread]

i know right

 

[JCaesar]

No Legion stream tonight, sorry guys. Blame Athena.

 

[BJN39]

zelda vs marth or
sheik vs marth

sheik vs puff or
zelda vs puff

Who is better for each?
IMO
Vs Marth: Shiek for sure
Vs Jiggs: I'm leaning slightly towards Zelda, but Shiek does okay too.

 

[cannedbread]

was trying to give an example where transforming would work, probably even necessary to win

marth:sheik is in sheiks favor where as marth:zelda isn't

puff:sheik is apparently in puffs favor but i feel that puff:zelda isn't as bad for sheik

i hate fighting marth as zelda like i have no idea how to bait a punish out of him

like now that i think about it even getting a punish out of him at neutral is hard

 

[SpiderMad]

Recently, I've been going rather hard on the Brawl ATs, using stuff like RAR way more than usual, DAC, and especially auto canceling. I was a pretty adamant Link main in Brawl (God help me) so it's kind of habit. Does auto-canceling work with any other characters like it does in Brawl? I know it was in Melee but was certainly not as prominent because of L-canceling.

DK in Melee/P:M is all about Auto-cancelling his Bair/Up-air, especially when you're doing up-airs on people after a cargo up-throw you SH Up-air and FFall immediatly to autocancel it, and when you wall with his SH bair it's almost always a bunch of AC ones. Ike can AC his SH bair and if your good at it or use buffer you can get past his autocancel frames into his Interruptable As soon as frames (IASA) and do a jump/waveland out of it, he can also autocancel Fair and Up air though they dont have IASA as soon enough to jump though like bair. Ike can Autocancel his Dair in a FH but fast fall pretty quick and still AC it so it's good for certain things. Link can do the same as Ike with his bair. If you know Wario in Brawl having a nice Nair that SH autocancels good: Jigglypuff in Melee/P:M is the same with her nair if you watch much puff play at all of HBox/Mango, just recently I was watching Genesis 1 GF again so good.
Oh and forgot Falco, sometimes you SH Autocancel his Bair though it's harder than say Ike's, but that's used a lot in Melee matches if you watch for it.

Ike/Link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkpWhb1nW7g&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqzhSKk-BBc&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5SEGAHiDz8&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dq6GO4qiavs&feature=plcp
http://smashmods.com/forum/thread-3854-post-107631.html#pid107631

Puff Nair (Puff is a lot about auto-cancels, even her SH Bair walling is often a lot of well timed Autocancels though it's so common you don't really think about it (her shield pressure is also often purposeful autocancel Bairs/Up-airs/Nairs which allows her to weave in the air to space but land for only 4 frames[normal landing]) . Whenever they throw out a move the puff players usually knows/feels the exact frames it can be autocanceled and try to land on that timing (dictating when to FFall).)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=atJKXt1taMg#t=71s

DK up-air
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbLGVujdeQ0
bair (its very easy to Autocancel his bair/up air, I would fine a video of him walling with AC bairs sort of like he did with his up-air but yeah in this video I linked he just did a bair and it autocanceled easily and he dash danced after it though that was the wrong choice to do since he didn't DD away far enough or just should of grab or w/e)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sbLGVujdeQ0#t=137s
Another thing you want to think about is the different timings of certain moves and their ACs/IASA/or plain move ending. DK is a good example so far that I found that his Up-air autocancels really well like his bair, but unlike his bair it doesn't have IASA as soon as it so you can't SH Up-air to waveland like you can with his bair, so this can come into your mind when you play when you decide if you should land (autocancel) his up-air after your chasing an opponent say that flew above a platform or DJ again (which you normally shouldn't since the autocancel is far sooner than when it gets IASA/or Ends) where his bair on the other hand you might want to not AC and go with using your double jump to Up-air or any aerial (in the scenario your chasing an opponent that went into the air).

Doctor Mario: Autocancel Up-air (and bair?) Oh this reminds me, P:M Mario can use SH AC Up-air but also Autocancelling his dair is often awesome for Shields as if you don't FFall it sometimes you land right after the last hit comes out and that's relatively when it ACs, I have a video to show for that but I'll find it later
Hold on lemme find a video of Shroom doing an SH AC Up-air chain to Fair combo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=fI3JyP29_Kg#t=396s

Ganondorf: He has a lot of examples but I won't listem (Just watch Kage auto cancel most things in SHs and all that)


Falco: (I could probably find a better example), but look for when he does the bair, it doesn't hit anything, but the point with his AC bair as well as Puff nair is that if it doesn't hit even with the lingering hitbox at the end your in normal landing so you can evade away quick like Dr.PP did with his AC bair, where the lingering hitbox at the just missed the incoming falcon kind of but he was able to quickly dash away instead, BUT if it does hit you can THEN I think FFall it and now you probably might have frame advatage since ur going to be in normal landing (the point of autocancel) rather than L-cancel. OR another point of it is to weave with it so it hits but then weave out so that you're in safe distance away, which applies a little more so with Puff and how she deals pressure on shield which you can watch the Mango vs Armada matches linked above for. Mango was originally a puff main though so he has a lot of Puff weaving type spacing still in his Falco which you can sometimes see him use AC Bair or a normal SH Nair L-cancel (his nair is his lowest land lag aerial) to do so.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=6ZEGAflZ-U4#t=82s

Well here's this too, I'm not sure if this was an Auto-cancel or not http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=6ZEGAflZ-U4#t=212s


Another thing I can get into which isn't exactly plain Autocancels is doing multiple aerials and the thought that goes into them. This applies to all characters but Luigi is the prime example. with Luigi, his Nair comes out fast (like Peach's) so it's best for Combo breaking, but it takes forever to end in the air compared to his other aerials so it's best to use after aerial strings when you're about to land: so if he does a Dair/Fair/Up-air from a SH and he's now about to land, it's usually best to throw out a Nair, so a lot of SHs consist of say doing a Fair to Nair or Dair to Nair.

Actually let me also talk about this too then I'll get back to the above paragraph topic of multiple aerials. Luigi's Nair as well as a lot of other characters Nairs is usually less landing lag time that most of his other aerials, meaning it's still not a bad idea to throw it out at the end of the move. But this also gets me to want to talk about Falco and when he should use Nair and Dair: Falco's Nair has less Landing lag, more forward range, and less damage. His Dair has more landing lag but more downward range, and more damage. So if someone's trying to Crouch cancel your attack you will want to go with Dair since it spikes and does more damage which both stop CCing a lot, but with Nair it's more safe if you land since it's got less landing lag and has sometimes a better chance of hitting. Uh..there's more to add but I can't remember right now so I'll go back to what I was originally saying.

Yeah so double aerials, with Luigi you want to use Nair when you're about to land but this also applies to other characters and so here I'll use Ike and then DK as an example. Ike's bair like we covered has IASA soon after the AC frames which allows him to input another action very soon after it comes out, so you can say do a FH bair and if it misses you can soon input a Dair/Up-air to cover you on the way down and even then those attacks may Auto-cancel by the time you reach the ground. Also both Ike and DK with full hopping a bair can do another bair before they land, so instead of trying to land right away or whatever throw out another bair instead so that you're always throwing out an aerial while you can: and likewise with Luigi you might not want to first throw out the longest taking move (Luigi's Nair) as it comes out fast but ends after a long time so instead with Ike/DK you usually might want to through out a Bair in a full hop and then do another move after it (but for Ike usually another bair since it comes out the fastest for him but also ends the fastest, and DK if your below or above someone after the bair is near ending you might want to up-air since it comes out fast).
So if you full hop jump out of QD to Dair someone and you miss, throw out a Bair immediately after you DJ back so or before you DJ back if you're not too far out or w/e so that that may also hit them as well rather than just plain using your DJ on your way back to the stage without any aerial going on (covering you from attack or gimping them) while you wait for the momentum of your DJ to carry you closer to the stage to then Up-b.
Here's some bad examples atm but I like to always include video examples, sometime I'll make videos of what I actually talked about like I did for Autocancels.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zQfq78B7Edw#t=302s Example of Dair to Bair thing, I almost always do a bair after I Dair,usually i RAR the Dair though but he was on the edge)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zQfq78B7Edw#t=155s another example, this time I didn't make it back because I didn't change my momentum enough right before/after it hit to be closer to the stage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMJL2bT-mlU&list=ULhMJL2bT-mlU&feature=player_detailpage#t=50s Here's a flubbed example, if the weak lingering hitbox of the Dair did hit him I would then Bair to DJ or DJ to bair and then easily make it back to the stage after with a QD

 

[cannedbread]

oh wow those ac nairs mango's puff were doing were so hot

 

[Stunts]

<doofgniknirD>: what if Marth bent his arm then took it off still bent and used it like a boomerang
<doofgniknirD>: that way he could grab as far as Link could throw
<Pinkie_Pie>: <doofgniknirD>: what if Marth bent his arm then took it off still bent and used it like a boomerang @

Dat disjointed hitbox lol

 

[DrinkingFood]

Mad, why do you say Falco's SH AC bairs are harder than Ike's SH bair-waveland? I've never had any trouble with Falco's AC bairs, but I've had to practice Ike's bair-waveland for awhile now and I'm still not consistent enough with it. It seems to only have like a 2 frame window, and only one of those is perfect in distance and speed, while Falco's SH bair functions pretty much the same no matter the timing, and the window seems much more lenient.

 

[Archangel]

Couldn't have been me, I don't play wifi lol.

Nobody is saying Zelda is bad. I'm just saying Sheik is better and not by a very small amount. It just seems to me that if Zelda can't get the job done, people will fall back on Sheik. It doesn't really seem to work in reverse, though.

When I was first learning to use new/changed character In the first month of time I often fell back on melee characters like Fox, Marth, Falcon. However, Once I got my footing with new character I've not had to resort to that nearly as often.

M2K to this day still swaps from Marth to sheik or fox so sometimes it is simply in a man's nature to resort to safer/simpler or more familiar.

Sheik is perhaps the most developed character from melee. alot of what she could do in 2002 is still being done 10 years later. Zelda on the other hand was barely played let alone at high levels. The fact that Zeldas place top 5 at any kind of event is remarkable imo. I think the character has plenty of room for growth in MU knowledge tactics. Once the experience is gained I wouldn't be shocked if alot of people were changing their thoughts.

 

[SpiderMad]

Mad, why do you say Falco's SH AC bairs are harder than Ike's SH bair-waveland? I've never had any trouble with Falco's AC bairs, but I've had to practice Ike's bair-waveland for awhile now and I'm still not consistent enough with it. It seems to only have like a 2 frame window, and only one of those is perfect in distance and speed, while Falco's SH bair functions pretty much the same no matter the timing, and the window seems much more lenient.

In this most recent post, I said it was harder than his AC bair, not his AC bair waveland. In an older post on smashmods I think I said his SH bair WD seems about as hard as Falco's AC Bair, but like you said it (SH Bair WD) might be 1 frame harder than Falco's AC bair. I'm not sure if it's past 1 frame harder though, I'm thinking 2 frames harder at most.

 

[Strong Badam]

falco ac bair is really really easy

 

[Archangel]

You think you own whatever land you land on
The Earth is just a dead thing you can claim
But I know every rock and tree and creature
Has a life, has a spirit, has a name

 

[ph00tbag]

My goal is to retain the core of Melee Sheik in the new game, not so much balance. If she winds up 12th as a result of her design simply not holding up in the new environment even with the grab buff once the dust settles a bit then fine.

You're like, my favorite person right now for saying this.