Project M Social Thread

[GP&B]

Save the OP/UP comments for when Demo 2 has actually been out for a month and you've been specifically dedicating time towards the character in question.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

^^^

That's the best COA as of now.

 

[Cubelarooso]

Ice Climbers are overpowered.
I have never seen them lose a match on stream.

 

[Strong Badam]

Fox is overpowered. He has an extremely powerful pressure game and doesn't have any weaknesses which factor into his playstyle. Punishment susceptibility would have, but exceptionally safe moves and high mobility negate any such weaknesses and shine or whatever seems too useful. It has invincibility frames, is jump cancellable, hits on frame 1, and reflects projectiles. It also is capable of gimping some characters entirely on its own, from 0%. It guarantees followups or combo escapes in many situations unparalleled by the rest of the cast and should be more situational.

See how easy that was?

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL oh my god I'm dying
get ****ing ***** I R MarF

 

[GaretHax]

As much as I would love to agree with the Zelda op stuff (I hate fighting her), I think she is just a good character. If the pmbr made Marth people would probably be screaming OP all over the place and tbh she kind of resembles Marth (vs spacies at least). Really the only way to fight her IMO is how you would fight a Marth-Jiggs hybrid; be very mindful of spacing, dont over commit, and do NOT get grabbed. I do, however, think she will be a modestly simple character to pick up, but once people learn how to play against her I doubt she will do much besides providing spacie players with an unlimited supply of serious headaches.
Also I am so hyped for wolf!!! (and charizard)

 

[ph00tbag]

Ice Climbers are overpowered.
I have never seen them lose a match on stream.

I've only ever seen Nana stare into my soul.

What am I even supposed to do against that.

When's the last time you played Mario:M? Dtilt is buffed significantly. I've gotten it to combo into fsmash at kill %s.

Truth be told, not recently. I've been under the impression that dtilt wasn't getting buffed at all from its Melee incarnation, as I've been told as much. It's good to see it's actually getting some uses.

 

[NeoZ]

I think it is important to remember that fox and falco have 10 years of development by more top-level players than the rest of the cast almost combined. If you buff a character with a fraction of that development so that a mediocre player can go even with a spacies player, do not be surprised when a good player shows up and uses those new tools even better and ends up revealing them to be far closer to (if not blatantly) OP than was anticipated.

I've said this so many times about Melee top/high tiers when people start saying new characters can't compete with them. I got called out by dant once, saying playtesting takes care of that, but to me it's better to err on the side of caution, which seems to be what the PMBR is doing, they're aiming for high tier instead of top tier.

Just out of curiosity, will wolf have as much potential for crazy tech skill combos as falco, for instance?

I remember seeing Silent Wolf doing pretty cool combos with Wolf on stream, but I can't find any videos of that.

 

[Wavebuster]

A good player Zelda multistocks you: OMG she's broken nerf Zelda
A good player Sheik multistocks+chain grabs you: welp that's how the cookie crumbles, nothing to see here

 

[KingClubber]

Any Streams Tonight?

 

[metroid1117]

From what we've seen of the PMBR streams, Zelda is obviously a good character. However, keep in mind that the PMBR is a relatively skilled but small sample size of the Smash community; when Demo 2 comes out, there may be other Zelda players besides Ryoko that show her strengths, but there will also be many more players (i.e. anyone who doesn't play Zelda) to expose her weaknesses. I'm personally looking forward to fighting a good Zelda since she's so different from how she is in Melee.

To people who haven't touched Project M outside of the Demo 1 and are saying Zelda's overpowered: stop complaining about something you haven't even had the opportunity to fight against. I'm not trying to sound elitist, but there is a big difference between theory crafting based on what you see is possible and actually playing against it.

EDIT:

I remember seeing Silent Wolf doing pretty cool combos with Wolf on stream, but I can't find any videos of that.

I don't think I've ever seen Silent Wolf stream Project M before; if you know his channel, please link me to it. Otherwise, I think you're recalling of Magus's Wolf footage against Ryoko back in the the Winter or Summer.

 

[Comeback Kid]

I think it is important to remember that fox and falco have 10 years of development by more top-level players than the rest of the cast almost combined. If you buff a character with a fraction of that development so that a mediocre player can go even with a spacies player, do not be surprised when a good player shows up and uses those new tools even better and ends up revealing them to be far closer to (if not blatantly) OP than was anticipated

Theorycraft on smashboards currently has three competing theories on Project:M balance:

A. The buffed characters will turn out to be so unstoppable that even the spacies will fall to their might and ruin the type of balance previously established.

or

B. The spacie gods and their ilk on Mount Olympus are still too powerful and will dominate over the lower rungs of characters as always even with a few buffs to their name.

or

C. The game will be balanced around a mix of old-school powerhouses and buffed newcomers. The inherent strengths and weaknesses of each will keep the balance correct.

 

[9Kplus1]

People are still talking about Zelda? Heh, successful master plan was successful

 

[Archangel]

I'm going with option D. None of the above.

 

[Yeroc]

The difference between this game's evolution and Melee's is that we're starting from a much higher skill base this time around. Intricacies and little tricks and such will have to be discovered again. But tech skill by and large is lightyears ahead of where it was when Melee tournaments first started, and this game isn't even actually out yet. Character gimmicks grow weaker over time. People learn how to work around such tricks. The difference between higher tiered characters and lower tiered ones is that they can find new ways to keep their gimmicks relevant. Low tier characters get a bit of exposure and suddenly become powerless again.

Making characters that seem overwhelmingly powerful at first glance is a symptom of people being good enough at the game from a technical standpoint so as to take advantage of these new tricks. Once continual exposure to these quirks makes them more familiar, they won't seem so overpowered, and will be more in line with existing characters' traits.

In true apologetic's fashion, that's the plan at least. It could blow up in our faces. But we have some very long-term vets working on this project, who know a thing or two about gross metagame evolution. I think we're heading in the right direction.

 

[Couch]

I am just too damn excited for this game. I really hope it starts to permeate the tourney scene.

 

[Archangel]

The difference between this game's evolution and Melee's is that we're starting from a much higher skill base this time around. Intricacies and little tricks and such will have to be discovered again. But tech skill by and large is lightyears ahead of where it was when Melee tournaments first started, and this game isn't even actually out yet. Character gimmicks grow weaker over time. People learn how to work around such tricks. The difference between higher tiered characters and lower tiered ones is that they can find new ways to keep their gimmicks relevant. Low tier characters get a bit of exposure and suddenly become powerless again.

Making characters that seem overwhelmingly powerful at first glance is a symptom of people being good enough at the game from a technical standpoint so as to take advantage of these new tricks. Once continual exposure to these quirks makes them more familiar, they won't seem so overpowered, and will be more in line with existing characters' traits.

In true apologetic's fashion, that's the plan at least. It could blow up in our faces. But we have some very long-term vets working on this project, who know a thing or two about gross metagame evolution. I think we're heading in the right direction.

I believe certain aspects should develop over time as well. I think the only thing me and a few others are uncomfortable with is the idea of handicap top tiers. Spacies rule the game but they require alot of dedication to master them to a high enough level but over time people have got to the same point with characters like puff and peach even a few odd Samus and Doc players have started making their way to the top in spite of the natural disadvantages they have. If you manage to make characters as good as them or better I don't have a problem with that at all. In fact I welcome the idea of new faces at the top of the game. What I do have an issue with is the idea of a character being as good as spacies or better but as simple to play as metaknight was in Vbrawl. I'm pretty sure that is everyone's fear and it would be down right tragic if all this work was put into Melee 2.0 to escape such a thing and have it turn out the same way again.

But I don't think that will happen. The PM team has proven themselves a few times now.

 

[Comeback Kid]

Metaknight is one dimensional because everything he does comes out fast with high priority. That shouldn't be a problem here with pros and cons balanced.

 

[Stunts]

8 more days

Srs time! I hate to sound prude and spoiled, but Please don't tell me that the only new characters are the 6 that are announced...

 

[MissingNo.]

I'm interested in how many people are excited about this that just read the thread, and rarely post, like me. I check back daily, and there are at least 10 people in my Halo 1/Smash group that are excited about this, and have been for a while. Especially our Bowser main.

 

[9Kplus1]

Someone force crush soda orange into the PMBR

Make him feel the Brawl!

 

[PropaneTankHank]

I'm interested in how many people are excited about this that just read the thread, and rarely post, like me. I check back daily, and there are at least 10 people in my Halo 1/Smash group that are excited about this, and have been for a while. Especially our Bowser main.

I'm in the same boat. As the release date has gotten closer and closer I've been frequenting the thread a few times a day, but I'm hardly qualified to give any technical input or criticisms. Just really looking forward to demo 2, as are my friends.

But since I'm here anyway, what's the current stance on backwards ledge-grabbing for Demo 2/P:M as a whole? I personally am a fan but yeah, I have no idea how it's perceived within the community.

 

[Deleted member]

Fox is overpowered. He has an extremely powerful pressure game and doesn't have any weaknesses which factor into his playstyle. Punishment susceptibility would have, but exceptionally safe moves and high mobility negate any such weaknesses and shine or whatever seems too useful. It has invincibility frames, is jump cancellable, hits on frame 1, and reflects projectiles. It also is capable of gimping some characters entirely on its own, from 0%. It guarantees followups or combo escapes in many situations unparalleled by the rest of the cast and should be more situational.

See how easy that was?

I think the difference here is that he's actually right, and your strawman isn't. I think it's pretty common knowledge at this point that Zelda is really, really ****ing good and is pretty hard to exploit as an overall statement. Since you want to make a comparison, I've said this before but almost every character in this game has a "I can do THIS to kill fox" and when pretty much the entire cast can just kill you, your character then becomes pretty exploitable. Fox also has many of his subtle weaknesses from melee transferred (low range, sometimes low priority, very weak to pivot grabs, or more subtle things like jab being easily crouch grabbed, etc) which are amplified when his speed loses utility on small stages, fighting bowser in general, and so on.

Zelda has no such issue. Zelda can be lamed out but the opponent needs a fantastic neutral game and a lot of patience which fairly negates it, something even melee peach would be jealous of. I don't think Zelda is OP but she's so good at so many things that I'd quickly label any statement undervaluing her potency as raw ignorance, particularly when she's in teams. If you have players in your player base that don't like characters that are just superior in every category, I would consider that totally reasonable.

I still think you should change sheik's upthrow to her combo throw. It solves my problem with PAL downthrow and her chaingrab. It can also give her a chaingrab against fox, which apparently you ****ers jerk to.

 

[Anth0ny]

Has the stage list been finalized for the demo? I'd like to start replacing music asap.

 

[GP&B]

I heard Battlefield's gonna be in this.

 

[iLink]

Well from my experience from the first demo.

My only issue with Zelda is I find that hitting the sweetspot on her fair/bair way too easy. I honestly don't even feel like I need to try spacing it sometimes.

That and I think neutral B has way too much unnecessary invincibility. I don't know the exact amount of it, but I've fair'd clean through Zelda with Marth while she's doing it. Heck I even saw Ike's fair just pass through her while doing it.

EDIT: Speaking of replacing music, if anyone remembers this, I made a brstm for it if anyone wants it http://www.mediafire.com/?2g8gz57blqf80gy

 

[9Kplus1]

Sweetspotting Zelda's kicks isn't easy at all. Even a fatty like DDD is hard to sweetspot if he's, you know, moving.

 

[Yeroc]

I think you missed the point of my post Max. I R Marf's post insinuated that he found these character traits to be overly abusable, and outside his definition of the bounds of acceptable character potential. I parodied these points as an example of the sort of pre-existing and even grandfathered-in levels of character absurdity that we're trying to balance characters against. I don't think Zelda's OP. I don't think Fox is OP. You raise a good point that the propensity of spacie-killer moves being liberally applied across the cast is in need of investigation, but the fact that the spacies, by and large, have options to simply not be in those situations in the first place makes that a difficult line to walk. It's the goal we've set for ourselves, though. I'm awaiting the proliferation of these characters in this demo to get widespread feedback on where these ideas stack up. I don't believe they're completely finalized, but I have confidence that they're moving in the right direction, and that they're close to where we ultimately want them to be.

 

[ph00tbag]

I think the difference here is that he's actually right, and your strawman isn't. I think it's pretty common knowledge at this point that Zelda is really, really ****ing good and is pretty hard to exploit as an overall statement. Since you want to make a comparison, I've said this before but almost every character in this game has a "I can do THIS to kill fox" and when pretty much the entire cast can just kill you, your character then becomes pretty exploitable. Fox also has many of his subtle weaknesses from melee transferred (low range, sometimes low priority, very weak to pivot grabs, or more subtle things like jab being easily crouch grabbed, etc) which are amplified when his speed loses utility on small stages, fighting bowser in general, and so on.

Zelda has no such issue. Zelda can be lamed out but the opponent needs a fantastic neutral game and a lot of patience which fairly negates it, something even melee peach would be jealous of. I don't think Zelda is OP but she's so good at so many things that I'd quickly label any statement undervaluing her potency as raw ignorance, particularly when she's in teams. If you have players in your player base that don't like characters that are just superior in every category, I would consider that totally reasonable.

I still think you should change sheik's upthrow to her combo throw. It solves my problem with PAL downthrow and her chaingrab. It can also give her a chaingrab against fox, which apparently you ****ers jerk to.

I think you're misreading the post. Because you suggest you disagree with Yeroc at the beginning, then make exactly the point Yeroc is trying to make, albeit with less irony. The point is that if you don't think Fox is OP, then Zelda is not OP, and you should stop complaining about her as though she is. You don't seem to think either is OP, so where are you even going with this?

 

[iLink]

Sweetspotting Zelda's kicks isn't easy at all. Even a fatty like DDD is hard to sweetspot if he's, you know, moving.

Was it changed later on?

In demo1, I would be surprised if I didn't actually get the sweetspot hit. Generally everyone I played with thought it was too easy.

 

[Yeroc]

Yes, they've been substantially reworked. Brawl-styled small sweetspots, reworked to fit better into the Melee environment, in terms of spacing and efficacy. Harder to use. Better reward. Less useless weaker hitboxes. Deeper moves overall, with a good layer of "technical proficiency required" rolled in.

 

[NeoZ]

EDIT: Speaking of replacing music, if anyone remembers this, I made a brstm for it if anyone wants it http://www.mediafire.com/?2g8gz57blqf80gy

I should've expected a Spam Jam remix, I seem to run into them everywhere lately.

I thought it was gonna be that menu theme(or maybe it was the opening?) remix someone posted a while ago. I think someone posted it saying it should replace the menu theme in PM, could someone post the link if they still have it?

 

[Crispy4001]

]Yes, they've been substantially reworked. Brawl-styled small sweetspots, reworked to fit better into the Melee environment, in terms of spacing and efficacy[/B]. Harder to use. Better reward. Less useless weaker hitboxes. Deeper moves overall, with a good layer of "technical proficiency required" rolled in.

Harder to sweetspot than in Melee?

Zelda had some dire deficiencies in Melee. I don't believe nerfing anything of hers relative to that game is the answer.

 

[drsusredfish]

everyone just wait. only 8 more days till any speculation can be taken seriously.

 

[iLink]

I should've expected a Spam Jam remix, I seem to run into them everywhere lately.

I thought it was gonna be that menu theme(or maybe it was the opening?) remix someone posted a while ago. I think someone posted it saying it should replace the menu theme in PM, could someone post the link if they still have it?

This one?

 

[cmart]

I don't think I've ever seen Silent Wolf stream Project M before; if you know his channel, please link me to it. Otherwise, I think you're recalling of Magus's Wolf footage against Ryoko back in the the Winter or Summer.

Silent Wolf (and Gimpyfish and Shadic) streamed on Yagi's channel a few times. So yes there is footage of him playing PM

 

[curry9186]

Whatever happened to Yagi anyway? So many people just randomly disappear.

 

[MonkUnit]

Yagi's like 30+ and is married and has children IIRC. life got in the way of smash i guess

 

[9Kplus1]

Harder to sweetspot than in Melee?

Zelda had some dire deficiencies in Melee. I don't believe nerfing anything of hers relative to that game is the answer.

Mario's Fair was "nerfed", and he turned out to be just fine

 

[Wavebuster]

If you want a preview of Zelda's kicks now...
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/163/newfair.png/

The sweetspot (purple) hitboxes are only active for 1 frame instead of the full 4 frame attack duration. The large Melee sized sweetspot has significantly weaker KB than Melee, but don't let that fool you into thinking they're useless. It's like Ganon's Bair strong, which isn't weak.

The tiny sweetspot is very powerful, even moreso than Melee's actual sweetspot numbers, and Fair's has a lower launch angle. The small Brawl-like sweetspots are quite challenging to land in practice and require some finesse to land in combos. They're also quite deadly OoS if spacing is just right. Only the small flub hitbox has priority over this sweetspot, which works out well in play.

 

[SNPR]

We're streaming melee right now but we're going to stream P:M later today.

http://www.twitch.tv/sniperfox1