Project M Social Thread

[ph00tbag]

That stage would be fine if the spawn locations were less lame.

 

[Shadic]

They've been fixed.

 

[Anth0ny]

Have all the Melee and Smash 64 stages been recreated in Brawl yet? I saw a screenshot of the SSS and I'm not sure whats fake or real anymore.

Gotta start pimping Project M on Neogaf soon!

 

[Skieth]

The toonlink changes sound pretty awesome

 

[`dazrin]

Hey folks! We have a character confirmation for Demo 2, and a full page of information on them as well.

Expect a bunch more of these to come out leading up to the launch of Demo 2. Get that hype machine rolling.

Toon Link!

TOOOOOOOOON RINKUUUU

I **** my pants when i saw it.


-Thanks alot for designing a kickass version of my main in project:m, shadic/PMBR/playtesters! Looking forward to playing him more when demo2 is released! :D

 

[DVDV28]

I must say I'm disappointed by the addition of the lingering hitboxes on TLink's arrows. That's B- material, not like the style of Melee that we've all come to love. I am yet to see TLink's grounded B^'s movement but I'm slightly worried about that too. I guess I'll have to wait...

...Until it's ported to PAL

 

[Kink-Link5]

Fire Arrows- stay on the field and cause flinch, Fire Arrows: M just deal flinchless damage.

 

[Shadic]

I must say I'm disappointed by the addition of the lingering hitboxes on TLink's arrows. That's B- material, not like the style of Melee that we've all come to love. I am yet to see TLink's grounded B^'s movement but I'm slightly worried about that too. I guess I'll have to wait..

Stepping on a fire arrow does 3% damage and causes it to vanish. It does not cause the opponent any hitstun. Toon Link cannot step on his own arrows. They last approximately two and a half seconds.

A fully-charged UpB travels less than half of the main Battlefield platform.

Compare that to Melee Luigi's, who has a DownB that travels faster, goes further, and doesn't need to be charged.

Ellipses make you sound like:

 

[Ecks]

Fire arrow's and up b's "improvements" are too lacking-hell they can't even be called improvements. What you guys should have done was give him an accurate Hurricane Spin on ground, and MK's 'nado on air.

 

[`dazrin]

Question: Will more 'character description' thingies be added in the near future, (somewhat confirming their appearances in the 2nd demo) similar to the one of toon link you just released?

If so I predict zard to be next O:

Oh, and what are the properties of TL's new downtilt? I knew i saw something different on stream! Does it have the same properties as the old one? because it was actually really good before as a combo starter O:

 

[Deleted member]

i was thinking about how sheik's downthrow was made into blatant garbage and i think i came up with a solution to her lack of kill power now.

just make her upthrow combo into fair/bair/upair/nair at about the same %s as her downthrow was in melee. it lets her keep her old combo game nearly intact but still effectively removes the CG. it would replace a fairly useless throw and should add more depth to her platform game that didn't exist before. more interaction = good.

opinion?

 

[ClinkStryphart]

me personally am hoping for Pit or Ike... My friend is personally hoping for Zard,Bowser& or DK.. He is a DK fanatic lol. I am excited about TL though espically with the Smash64 changes and some of the Melee changes. Fire arrows, Hurricane spin yes prz

 

[kaizo13]

Question: Will more 'character description' thingies be added in the near future, (somewhat confirming their appearances in the 2nd demo) similar to the one of toon link you just released?

If so I predict zard to be next O:

Hey folks! We have a character confirmation for Demo 2, and a full page of information on them as well.

Expect a bunch more of these to come out leading up to the launch of Demo 2. Get that hype machine rolling.

you must have been way too excited

 

[`dazrin]

you must have been way too excited

....yeah. my bad.

thanks for that ^^;;

edit: the content of your posts always perfectly matches the facial expression on your avatar :D

 

[kaizo13]

the content of your posts always perfectly matches the facial expression on your avatar :D

I....try my best

 

[Vigilante]

Yes, we'll release more, but I can't say exactly when. I've written/participated in writing like half of the new demo character bios already lol, but we're waiting to make sure we don't make any game-changing last minute changes before we make them public.

 

[metroid1117]

i was thinking about how sheik's downthrow was made into blatant garbage and i think i came up with a solution to her lack of kill power now.

just make her upthrow combo into fair/bair/upair/nair at about the same %s as her downthrow was in melee. it lets her keep her old combo game nearly intact but still effectively removes the CG. it would replace a fairly useless throw and should add more depth to her platform game that didn't exist before. more interaction = good.

opinion?

This sounds fine to me. I'm not sure what you mean by Sheik's lack of kill power in the recent P:M builds (again, haven't played it before), but that sounds like a good way to remove the chaingrab while maintaining her combo game. The only issue I can see people having with it is that they'd be forced to learn an entirely new habit for a game that has, so far, striven to retain the core playstyle of Melee veterans.

 

[Strong Badam]

my character gets cg'd 0-death by NTSC dthrow and i am in favor of it for project m

 

[iLink]

my character gets cg'd 0-death by NTSC dthrow and i am in favor of it for project m

Just out of curiosity, why?

 

[kaizo13]

i prefer ntsc as well....from what i've seen i don't really find the experimental throws to be very appealing. they just don't say "sheik" to me.

 

[Strong Badam]

sheik is not OP to the point of requiring a nerf in NTSC; there are at least 2 characters that are better than her. no matter how you change dthrow it's going to be a nerf. therefore, i'm against changing it.

 

[iLink]

The fact that the move alone degenerates competitive gameplay bothers me. Sure it's a nerf and she's not the best character, but that doesn't mean you can't compensate her in other ways. Isn't she more or less in the same tier spot in PAL? I think falco is lower then her but that might have something to do with his dair difference.

inb49k+1andsheikbeingahe

 

[`dazrin]

Iono, I'm actually a sheik main myself, and I don't really mind either way.

The dthrow infinite chain-grab is great, but she also has many other tools that make her an amazing character as well. I'm not going to complain if it's in, as I'll probably still use sheik in p:m tournaments and MMs but it's not like she DESPERATELY NEEDS it to be good.

I am, however, more leaning on strongbad's side of "she wasn't the best in melee- no need for a nerf" as it's been like that since forever and sheik isn't a superbrokenmetaknight-tier character because of it.

 

[Strong Badam]

how does it degenerate gameplay though?
She's good in PAL because other chars were nerfed. Falco is #1 without a doubt in PAL though.

the dthrow is EXTREMELY important in floatier matchups like against Samus/Peach/Jigglypuff, matchups in which she can't CG but she can combo a Fair or Uair. I don't see a reasonable way of removing or making less prominent the CG while still retaining this important aspect of the character.

 

[Mattnumbers]

how does it degenerate gameplay though?
She's good in PAL because other chars were nerfed. Falco is #1 without a doubt in PAL though.

the dthrow is EXTREMELY important in floatier matchups like against Samus/Peach/Jigglypuff, matchups in which she can't CG but she can combo a Fair or Uair. I don't see a reasonable way of removing or making less prominent the CG while still retaining this important aspect of the character.

Wouldn't Umbreon's idea accomplish this?

 

[Strong Badam]

I don't see how a uthrow change could accomplish the same utility without now giving sheik a uthrow CG

 

[iLink]

how does it degenerate gameplay though?
She's good in PAL because other chars were nerfed. Falco is #1 without a doubt in PAL though.

the dthrow is EXTREMELY important in floatier matchups like against Samus/Peach/Jigglypuff, matchups in which she can't CG but she can combo a Fair or Uair. I don't see a reasonable way of removing or making less prominent the CG while still retaining this important aspect of the character.

What other changes to the top tiers are there? We had a PAL disk around here and the only difference in the top tiers I could notice were sheik's uair seemed more like a juggle attack and the dthrow change, falco's dair not spike later in the animation, and I think marth's dair was a meteor but not sure about that.

 

[Archangel]

how does it degenerate gameplay though?
She's good in PAL because other chars were nerfed. Falco is #1 without a doubt in PAL though.

the dthrow is EXTREMELY important in floatier matchups like against Samus/Peach/Jigglypuff, matchups in which she can't CG but she can combo a Fair or Uair. I don't see a reasonable way of removing or making less prominent the CG while still retaining this important aspect of the character.

She degenerates gameplay simply because half the cast became unplayable in tournament as a result of her existing. Granted most of them turned out to be not so good of characters anyway. Still, trying to promote closely contested competitive means something will half to be done about her. I mean what is the good of working on melee low tiers like yoshi for example if they still are auto-defeated by Sheik in the end?


+1 Umbreon's idea.

@ X iLink X there are a few other changes like the semi-spike with link... and ganon not being as strong with his fair I think.

Also..Marth is not top tier

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

I don't see a reasonable way of removing or making less prominent the CG while still retaining this important aspect of the character.

If something is even the slightest bit OP then duh, it's going to be a core part of gameplay, but I hope you're aware that being OP doesn't warrant immunity to nerfing (no matter how used to it people are). If that were the case what would you say about metaknight? I assume you've changed quite a bit of important aspects (that people were used to) about him in the name of balance. I'm sure there were 2 people better than him (a bad excuse for sheik too) in his original state upon entering Project M. I'd guess you might say its different for him because he's a newcomer, but in that case you'd have to explain the Melee characters which are being changed and how they differ other than being bad... even in that respect [of tier placement] it's obvious sheik and metaknight are on a similar stage.

If you want to keep the CG then perhaps make it harder to pull off, or only effective on a certain group of characters. I don't speak for the P:M devs but I'd think balance does top (and certainly has topped) retaining important aspects for the sake of retaining them.

 

[Archangel]

don't get me wrong. I am against nerfing and I think it fails most things. However In this case it seems more like a trade not a nerf. So I'll agree.

If they wanted to remove the invincible frames from fox's Upsmash for example I wouldn't really consider it a nerf. Especially if they gave him like an extra % on his lasers or something.

 

[Wavebuster]

the dthrow is EXTREMELY important in floatier matchups like against Samus/Peach/Jigglypuff

Um, no.
An uair that actually kills off the top is what is "EXTREMELY" important in floatier matchups.

The only reason those two characters are better than Sheik is because in addition to being great on their own, they don't get instagibbed by that one move, which is much more than can be half for just about half the characters. Might as well admit to lolol should've picked a spacie when Sheik comes aboard. I don't see at all how leaving obnoxious single move chains like this in while at the very least shooting for characters to be somewhat "viable" in all matchups is anything but a very obvious conflict of interest.

 

[jalued]

sheik is not OP to the point of requiring a nerf in NTSC; there are at least 2 characters that are better than her. no matter how you change dthrow it's going to be a nerf. therefore, i'm against changing it.

She may have not been OP in regards to melee top tiers, but her chaingrab allowed her to shut down almost all of the low tiers.

even though the low tiers are stronger, this chaingrab will still have a very potent effect on her MU's and it will damage the game's overal balance. Giving her PAL dthrow but a slightly better bthrow would be a nice alternative

Um, no.
An uair that actually kills off the top is what is "EXTREMELY" important in floatier matchups.

HAHAHA yeah this guy understands. Once you play PAL sheik v jiggz/peach u'll understand. Her PAL dthrow is a minimal nerf compared to her upair

What other changes to the top tiers are there? We had a PAL disk around here and the only difference in the top tiers I could notice were sheik's uair seemed more like a juggle attack and the dthrow change, falco's dair not spike later in the animation, and I think marth's dair was a meteor but not sure about that.

The ohter 2 major changes are: fox's upsmash weaker and ganon's fair weaker (wtf were they thinking here? )

 

[Mattnumbers]

I don't see how a uthrow change could accomplish the same utility without now giving sheik a uthrow CG

On stages with platforms (anywhere but FD) medium/heavy characters would be able to tech instead of getting regrabbed. They'd even still get punished pretty easily it just wouldn't be as reliable of a chaingrab.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I don't see how Sheik "degenerates" gameplay or makes a ton of characters "Nonviable" with D-throw. Anyone care to elaborate because Ice Climbers do the same damn thing and they have a frametrap to get grabs.

Please respond to the first sentence because I realise there's a tendency to miss the point of posts.

 

[jalued]

I don't see how Sheik "degenerates" gameplay or makes a ton of characters "Nonviable" with D-throw. Anyone care to elaborate because Ice Climbers do the same damn thing and they have a frametrap to get grabs.

Please respond to the first sentence because I realise there's a tendency to miss the point of posts.

I think the main gripe with her dthrow chaingrabbing is that it works on alot of characters, to rather high percentages and requires no skill to pull off. It also makes matches less interesting to play/watch and can even result in some matchups being completely ridiculous (thinking sheik v bowser).

The plus side of it is that it allows for her to followup to fair at killing percentages, but sheik has sooo many ways to combo into fair/upair (almost all her moves flow perfectly) that she doesnt particularly need her ntsc dthrow

 

[Kink-Link5]

The difficulty of a combo should not be grounds for banning it. Or removing it in this case.

 

[jalued]

The difficulty of a combo should not be grounds for banning it. Or removing it in this case.

no, but sheik doesnt need it to be more than viable. Removing it allows other characters to flourish rather than people having to swap from their mains whenever they face a sheik

Fox without his waveshine would not be nearly as good, but with sheik everything flows natural and combos into itself. I do hope they can add hurtboxes back onto the needles though, she needs that for her edgeguarding

 

[Revven]

Gotta start pimping Project M on Neogaf soon!

Yo dood, I have an account there now too, so I can halp with dat dood.

Gonna be all dat hype on NeoGAF mang.

 

[Cubelarooso]

I say just use NTSC Dthrow in Demo 2. When it proves be perfectly fine/destroy the game, half of the community can just say "I told you so," and we all move on. None of this basing major gameplay decisions on Theory Smash. Get some real, public experimental evidence, and no one would be able to complain again*.


If Toon Link's gonna be in the Demo, Nair needs changing.
I'd always kinda assumed the only reason it had never been changed was because it wasn't a priority. What other reason is there?
A stab reminiscent of AoL's neutral attack could retain the exact same hitboxes and utility, with only some minor changes to hurtbox. In fact, it'd actually gain utility by becoming disjointed.
The Inspector-Gadget legs are jarring and uncharacteristic, and should be fixed. It'd also increase the aesthetic quality for those who don't think it's currently a problem, by creating a triad of symmetry with Uair and Dair, and this thread seems to be filled with Zelda 2 fans.
Not only would it fix aesthetics and retain utility, it would actually improve upon Melee in both.

Other than that, this has got me super hyped. YL is my bro's main in Melee, so this is quite relevant to my interests.
Waiting for Pikachu now, in the next Demo or even if it's not 'til the full build, then it'll be like old times. Or, more like current times. But with that new times smell.


*Note: They will always complain, but it would have no influence in light of the facts.

 

[Yeroc]

The basis of your reasoning is why I personally would prefer to field test a modified dthrow. We have an idea of what NTSC dthrow would look like on Project:M characters because of the large degree of similarity to Melee. If we release Demo 2 with NTSC dthrow and it proves overwhelming, we really haven't learned much. There's an element of predictability that would hamper the experiment. We still wouldn't have explored the effectiveness of an alternate solution. Conversely, if we implement a modified throw and release it in Demo 2, it will allow players to test the limits of an unknown quantity, and determine whether or not it is sufficient for Sheik herself to remain at that "top-tier" status without it.

It's a better solution in the long term in my opinion because it allows us a more complete picture of how things ultimately stack up.

Edit: As far as Tink goes, I think still images don't do the move justice. Animation flaws pop a lot in stills. The move looks very natural in-game. Gadget legs is a pretty big overstatement in my experience.