Project M Community MU Chart [αlpha]

[tasteless gentleman]

We can do without one of those kappa(?)

But really, I'd give it more time before coming up with MU spreads. Especially for a MU knowledge heavy char like Bowser. There's no hurry is there? It's better to have empty slots as opposed to misinformation spreading.

I mean outside of a few reverts and a few tool changes from 3.6b i feel like bowser is fairly close from 3.6 to 3.6b

 

[Life]

Not sure if Pit Snake is an awful matchup or if I just haven't figured it out yet.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Not sure if Pit Snake is an awful matchup or if I just haven't figured it out yet.

I mean pit can use arrows to set off mines and block grenades, but thats alot of lag he will be suffering, i would say snakes favor until pit gets him off stage.

 

[Life]

I mean pit can use arrows to set off mines and block grenades, but thats alot of lag he will be suffering, i would say snakes favor until pit gets him off stage.

I do like to blow up the mines with arrows when I don't think I'll get the opportunity to turn the mines against Snake (he's relatively hard to combo off dthrow so mines can help you link things together) but sniping grenade tosses with arrows is borderline impossible to do with any consistency provided Snake doesn't get predictable. Arrows are smaller than they look and grenades are tiny.

I appreciate that someone understands how laggy arrows are, though. You know how many times I've been told arrows are Falco lasers? Ugh.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

I do like to blow up the mines with arrows when I don't think I'll get the opportunity to turn the mines against Snake (he's relatively hard to combo off dthrow so mines can help you link things together) but sniping grenade tosses with arrows is borderline impossible to do with any consistency provided Snake doesn't get predictable. Arrows are smaller than they look and grenades are tiny.

I appreciate that someone understands how laggy arrows are, though. You know how many times I've been told arrows are Falco lasers? Ugh.

I use to main pit, so yea i totally heard the "its falcos lazers but better", which yea maybe in 3.02 they were, but not now lol.

I dunno i would say its fairly even 50-50

 

[Skelterai]

As someone who picked up Pit in 3.5 (ouch)
He feels so much better in 3.6

I haven't played a lot of tournaments with him, so I'll give small insight to several matchups I've played, and tell you what I think of it.

Fox
55:45 in Fox's favor.

This matchup isn't terrible for Pit. Onstage requires heavy dash dancing, and most of the percent Pit gets is going to be from grabs. Besides that, he's combo food and upsmash is definitely capable of sealing the deal at 95~ (with no DI)
Pit definitely excels at offstage gimps and edgeguarding, especially since Fox is so easy to punish with a fair or bair. Also, Shinespikes murder an unwary Pit.

Falco
65:35 Falco's Favor
This matchup is hard. Camping Falco isn't an option, and lasers ruin Pit's approach. Also, they can interrupt his Side B recovery, for a relatively simple gimp. Onstage, Pit just gets murdered, and the only salvation Pit really has, is getting Falco with small gimps and a relatively easy upthrow chaingrab that can lead into a bair kill.

Lucario 50:50

I feel that this matchup is relatively even. Lucario is a combo-driven machine, but he's a good weight for Pit to juggle. Also, grabs and arrows work well against him, along with Gimping his recovery. On the other hand, Pit is combo food for Lucario, and considering Nair, Bair, and offstage Aura Bomb, Lucario has several options to get kill Pit, especially out of Upthrow.

Ike
60:40 Pit's favor.

I like this matchup a lot. Arrows are too slow to shutdown Ike's QD options. However, Pit is much faster, has an awesome spot dodge, and can juggle Ike without too much difficulty. Also, Gimping Ike is a lot easier, as Fair or bair will easily beat his Aerial QD, and a lot of the time, Pit can get him too far offstage to recover with just a raw up b. On the other hand, Ike still spaces well with Nair, and can kill Pit with an offstage Fair or Dair. However, due to Pit's speed, I have no problem dealing with Ike.

Marth
60:40 Marth's Favor

I don't like this matchup because tipper. It's the Freddy Krueger of Pit's dreams and basically tells Pit that recovering high is the worst idea he's had. Marth has great combos on Pit. He has good options from grabs, and Ken combos hurt Pit just like everyone else. Pit can win this matchup with good dash dancing and arrow camping. Offstage Marth is dangerous to gimp with fair or bair, but not impossible. He's a pushover when he's directly above you though, due to his limited falling options.

Ivysaur
55:45 Pit's favor

Ivy is easily outcamped by Pit's arrows, onstage, Ivy has better combos and does very well juggling Pit. But because of Ivy's weight and slower air speed, she's way easy for Pit to gimp with a fair or bair.
Pit doesn't do so well with juggling ivy, but his Nair, fair, and dair can get in quickly against any ivy that doesn't have bair ready to hit back.
Also, tether recoveries are relatively easy for Pit to deal with. I usually just drop and bair, and I win.

Samus
60:40 Samus' favor

This matchup is gross and it should take a shower. Basically hell on both sides, as arrow curving and missile canceling both shred. Samus wins the neutral easy. It's arrows are definitely annoying, but he needs to get in to deal the good damage and samus doesn't let that happen so easily. Samus hates up airs, but Samus' dair has priority over Pit's up b, so trading with it turns Pit into a comet, making it hard to kill off the top early
early. Gimping samus is tricky, as Bomb jumping makes her teensy, and she can recovery from ridiculous horizontal distances with tether, but it is possible.
Overall, Samus just has better options and makes it difficult for Pit to kill her.

Sheik
70/30 Sheik's Favor

This matchup is strenuous on my health. Sheik demolishes Pit on the ground. She has chaingrabs, tilts, needles, dsmash, and awesome edgeguard options. Pit has decent juggles on her, and arrow camping is possible if he baits and punishes with grabs, but it's all piecemeal. Sheik can nearly go 0-death without too much hassle.

Falcon
60:40 Falcon's favor.

That damned knee. That fast dash dance. Those long Nairs and uairs. This matchup is difficult. Falcon has the combos, kill moves, and style to kill Pit like a rabid dog fighting a marine. (Filthy Casual pls) Pit 100% relies on getting the gimp on Falcon's recovery. Killing him off the top with Up B is difficult, and definitely not worth the dair Pit would probably eat. Pit has juggles on Falcon and can take him offstage permanently, but he gets very little from grabs, and Falcon can just Nair or fair the arrows away.

Donkey Kong
50:50
Pit has awesome combos. Gimping isn't easy, but it's possible. Kong's bair hurts though, and I don't like the idea of trading with his fair or dair. Pit evens it up with arrows, I think. Simple to just camp DK and force him to make risky approaches.

Diddy Kong
65:35 Diddy's favor
Between the banana, tilts, fair, and side b, Diddy can 0-death Pit. Pit would rely on arrows, up air juggles, and Gimping diddy's up b, but honestly this matchup should be easily in Diddy's favor.

Toon Link
60:40 Toon Link's favor
Pit can play the camp game back at Tink, but Tink just gets better opportunities from it, especially with the AGT his bombs give him, and the different punishes he can get from landing a bomb. Fsmash, grab, fair, etc. Also, Pit doesn't do well against the up b kill, and Toon Link is hard to juggle. His dair beats Pit's Up B. Pit only really excels in chaingrabs and gimps. Tether is easy for Pit to deal with, and any recovery AGT bomb can be stopped with an arrow. Besides that, Pit has nothing in this matchup besides dair->aerial setups

Link
70:30 Link's favor

If there's one character I will absolutely avoid playing against with Pit, it's Link. His zoning tools feel slightly more relevant than Tink's and the arrows don't do a lot to stop him. Juggling is nearly impossible thanks to his dair, and Gimping him offstage shouldn't be hard, but any Link who properly uses his Up b, can basically shut down the possibility for fair or bair gimps.
Also, the ground up b is killer for Pit. Especially out of a grab.

Will continue later, sleep time rn

 

[Skelterai]

As for Pit vs Snake, It may seem tricky.

Arrows can easily snipe the mines. Grenades are definitely harder to hit. It's better off to just shoot at Snake and shield the grenades afterwards(if you are far away enough) as long as you keep hitting him and dodging nades, it helps keep snake from camping.

This matchup can go either way, and I honestly think it depends on positioning, and patience. If Pit is above Snake, he's in trouble. Snake's up smash, long reach helps with anti-air attacks, as well as the up b "shine" Snake uses. If Pit approaches horizontally from the air, Snake may not get the chance to recover. His Nair and ftilt can save him from being combo'd on, but if Pit gets an opening, he has chaingrabs around 40%~ and he can easily finish them with a fair or fthrow to get snake off stage. Once Snake is off stage, I really don't see him coming back. Pit can wall him out with arrows and fair, and if he does a C4 Recovery, Pit can simply grab ledge and Bair, or catch him wherever he flies to.

So I think this matchup is mainly in Pit's favor. He moves faster than snake, and approaches with more hops rather than WD like Marth, Roy, or Luigi. This makes the tranq dart harder to hit with. Snake can still take Pit in the air though, so aggressive play may not work well.

I'd say Pit's Favor 55:45

 

[Skelterai]

As for Pit vs Snake, It may seem tricky.

Arrows can easily snipe the mines. Grenades are definitely harder to hit. It's better off to just shoot at Snake and shield the grenades afterwards(if you are far away enough) as long as you keep hitting him and dodging nades, it helps keep snake from camping.

This matchup can go either way, and I honestly think it depends on positioning, and patience. If Pit is above Snake, he's in trouble. Snake's up smash, long reach helps with anti-air attacks, as well as the up b "shine" Snake uses. If Pit approaches horizontally from the air, Snake may not get the chance to recover. His Nair and ftilt can save him from being combo'd on, but if Pit gets an opening, he has chaingrabs around 40%~ and he can easily finish them with a fair or fthrow to get snake off stage. Once Snake is off stage, I really don't see him coming back. Pit can wall him out with arrows and fair, and if he does a C4 Recovery, Pit can simply grab ledge and Bair, or catch him wherever he flies to.

So I think this matchup is mainly in Pit's favor. He moves faster than snake, and approaches with more hops rather than WD like Marth, Roy, or Luigi. This makes the tranq dart harder to hit with. Snake can still take Pit in the air though, so aggressive play may not work well.

I'd say Pit's Favor 55:45

 

[Life]

he has chaingrabs around 40%~

This is really telling. I've done some homework on it, and the only character I can find that Pit has any kind of substantial chaingrab on regardless of DI is GnW. Snake being substantially heavier and faster-falling (combo properties comparable to Link or Ike according to that one chart, which is admittedly outdated but I don't think any of those three have changed since 3.5?), I seriously doubt there's any meaningful chaingrab on a human opponent.

My Pit edgeguards in general *can* use work, but I think you underestimate how many options Snake actually has while recovering, and how many punishes Pit actually needs to get on Snake before you can get him offstage. Meanwhile Snake needs roughly 2-3 decent combos to kill Pit (and not even the hard kinds of combos either--stuff he can get off CC dtilt, grab, upB OOS, etc.). B-reverse nade short-circuiting Pit's juggle game doesn't help matters either--otherwise we could just keep him up in the air all day.

Pit absolutely *demolished* this matchup back in 3.02, but those days are long gone.

 

[Skelterai]

On snake, I've found dthrow to be a pretty reliable chaingrab or at least a regrab, given that you read the DI. And Pit has other ones too. Like dthrow vs Marth, and upthrow on all the spacies. And Snake's combos mainly come out of a shield or crouch cancel, both of which getting beaten by a grab, or simple camping.

I play a more patient game with my Pit, and I'd focus on baiting him out of those positions, especially since he can't set mines that last longer than a few seconds.

I just get him off stage, and it feels too easy to let him come back, even if he's throwing nades, or attempting his fair meteor.

Just shoot em and scoot em.

We can't rely on juggles for this matchup, and that's really the biggest problem. But that doesn't make it a bad matchup, it just means we have to bait and wait for fair and arrow openings.

Lol it's a little difficult to get Pit footage these days, since everyone dropped him. I just think he's better than everyone considers him to be.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Nice work, Skelterai !
We need these mains to fill up the remaining spots

 

[Skelterai]

Vs Peach

I actually picked Pit up in the hopes that he'd do well in this matchup. Out here in New Mexico, we have Light. Who tied for 33rd at Evo Melee this year. His Peach is insane.
I'd say 65:35 in Peach's favor.

While the arrows are certainly faster than Turnips, they only clank with the less powerful turnips, and a good Peach can still catch them after they are clanked.
If she pulls a bob-omb, stitchface, or beam sword, she can trade with anything Pit has except the down b shield, which lets face it, isn't the most reliable option.
This is bad because closing in on Peach is difficult. Pit can get in, but if he gets hit by her down smash, he's going to take damage. Overall, she's hard to combo. Pit doesn't have the reach or speed to get in and out quick like TL, Fox, Falcon, etc.

As for the off stage game, Peach wins EASY. All she has to do to recover is float and spam nair. If Pit manages to pull off the Dair spike, or gets above her recovery without eating an up air, he can finally deal some damage without risk.

Let's say the situation was flipped though. If Peach went off stage to gimp us, my only solutions, would be to recover low, before she could grab ledge, and attempt to squeeze in a fair or arrow before she hit or traded with me.

I may be over exaggerating this matchup, because I'm not nearly as good as Light. But I do feel this is a bad matchup at least 60:40 in Peach's favor

 

[Skelterai]

Pit Vs Pit

I've actually done this matchup before in 3.5, and at that point, it was a bad matchup

Pit Juggles pit. Can't confirm dthrow chaingrabs, but pit can gimp Pit just as easy, and the arrows are annoying for Pit to deal with.

I'd say he loses to his own moveset.

Vs Wolf

I'd say this is in Wolf's Favor 55:45
The shield pressure and shines are insane, and his lasers are basically clanks for our arrows. This hurts any campy strategy a lot. Also worth mention that all of wolf's aerials have good reach and hitboxes to chase pit in the air. Fair and up air can reach us, and at high percents, can kill. Also the side b kill, is pretty reliable against Pit, since it can shorten.

On the flipcoin, Pit has good combos on Wolf, as juggles can lead to a easy fair or bair offstage and arrow snipe for a kill. Toss that in with Pit's really good recovery and his uthrow chaingrab and Pit will actually take favor on big stages like Dreamland or Distant Planet.

 

[Skelterai]

Vs Squirtle
60:40 Squirtle's favor

Now my Pit focuses on off stage gimps but squirtle is annoying. First is the neutral game. Squirtle is much faster than Pit on the ground and thanks to his Side B and shell shifts, he's too hard to just spam with arrows. So Pit has to resort to Dash attack, and dair to get his combos started. Squirtle just has more approaches and options to build damage on Pit.

Pit is lucky. He's a little too light for squirtle to juggle with Up airs, but considering squirtle has faster air movement speed, he can still get us with an up b, or up smash when we get back down. So we lose in the combo game too.

As for recovery, squirtle can use his down b to gimp us during flight. (Stuns) or use neutral b to gimp us from a distance(flight) and he can fair kill us if we recover high.

As for us Gimping him, he's very small and he can jump after his Side b, so it's hard to hit him.

I just feel Squirtle wins in all regards.

Pit can win on small stages, but on big ones, I don't see it happening.

 

[Life]

re: Peach, I think that basing your opinion on a matchup against a player that is clearly much better than you might be a little hasty. I wouldn't be surprised if Peach has a slight edge--my scene doesn't have any real Peach players--but I sincerely doubt it's that bad on a character level (especially re: the comment about spamming nair vs. Pit's recovery).

Marth vs. Peach in Melee is a pretty well-explored matchup, and a lot of the same concepts Marth uses to beat certain characters apply to Pit, so maybe take a look at that matchup. Marth has a worse recovery than Pit does (albeit a slightly underrated one), but Marth players make it back against Peach all the time. Marth doesn't even have arrows to harass a distant Peach, but instead he takes advantage of the turnip pull animation to close the gap and get stage positioning or a grab. Marth doesn't have a big long chaingrab on her like he does on Fox, but he can still threaten her landings so well that you'd hardly know the difference.

re: Wolf, would also like to point out that uthrow chaingrabbing is even less real than dthrow chaingrabbing; it requires your opponent to DI incorrectly AND for there not to be a platform in the way. That's not to say uthrow isn't worth using--it's just a DI mixup vs dthrow, with the winning result being a regrab and the losing one being a techchase.

I know I'm really playing the naysayer in this thread right now LOL. What I'm actually trying to say is that a lot of your statements are about things that don't actually work when both players are playing correctly; I don't think it's good to judge character matchups that way. I don't know if your conclusions are right or wrong--minus-one versus spacies is probably a good placeholder until we know more--but maybe take a closer look at how you're getting to them? Take it from the guy who was, until the last week or two, the biggest Pit optimist around. Just blaming a loss on "X is a bad matchup" isn't really a productive mindset--but that applies to every character matchup in the game.

Oh, and edit button's on the bottom left of your post.

If you're curious, I actually have a VoD of me vs a local Squirtle. I'm a somewhat better player than him overall, though he's really been stepping up the past few weeks. Not gonna make any claims based on the video--neither of us exactly represent the pinnacle of our characters' potential--but having more pairs of eyes might help illuminate something. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_KMPT8ClSo

Big thing I noticed was his predictable ledge play. Wasn't always consistent about punishing it, but I suppose maybe that kept him from catching on that I caught on? He adapted to the Mirror Shield edgeguard quite nicely, only got caught by the first one.

 

[Skelterai]

Lol yeah I could probably edit a few looking back, but I wouldn't really change too much of the result. I've had a few months to play with him, and I'm not doubting your skill or naysaying you. I just find the tactics I use with Pit to be the most effective. The chaingrabbing yes is mainly reliant on opponent DI, but that doesn't mean it's not effective or that people are DI-ing incorrectly. I just find grabs to be one of the solid things Pit has.

As for your Marth generalization, I disagree in multiple ways.
1 Marth has a quick recovery. Pit doesn't. He has to be closer, uses more jumps, and Peach can drop her float and grab ledge pretty quickly. Arrows are hard to hit her with in the air unless you curve right. She can use her dair to clank with them.

Marth at least can drop a while and stall from a distance. Before shooting up. We definitely excel in horizontal recovery, which she's awesome at beating.

2 marth vs Peach relies on him keeping her from pulling turnips. Meaning keeping her above him. Not only does he have the long disjointed sword that pit doesn't have, he also has up tilt and up air that reach much higher. He also has a reliable dair spike, unlike us. I do agree that punishing her turnip pull animation is a good opening, but it's much easier said than done. Dash attack would probably be our best option in that case. But I really don't see it converting into a long or substantial combo.

As I said before. I don't doubt your skill or knowledge as a player. And I'm not the kind of person to blame my losses on a bad matchup. I just feel that Pit loses to more characters than he wins to, and if you disagree, I'll happily listen.

 

[Soft Serve]

Pit doesn't have marth fair/upair, I doubt he has the same sort of mu nuances vs peach. He can't threaten the same space with the same swing archs

 

[eideeiit]

His running momentum does transfer to jumps better so he may have an easier time getting under her with uairs?

 

[Skelterai]

I wouldn't say he has a better time. Marth has a much longer wavedash that lets him get in easier. Plus, Tipper if Peach decides to float in and attack. Arrow harassment would be nice and dandy, except that they're slower than Falco lasers, meaning the timing is more important.

You also have to remember that Peach *doesn't have to approach (subjective to playstyles)
She can can throw turnips all day if she wanted, which is why we'd have to approach. If she's in the air, arrow harassment is ideal. But if you approach, be careful to avoid getting down smashed, grabbed, or dash attacked, because all 3 give her opportunities to rack major damage on us.

 

[InfinityCollision]

I don't think any of Wolf's listed -1s (Lucario, Marth, Samus, Yoshi) are actually disadvantageous matchups. Anyone want to talk about them for a bit?

vs Link: +2
vs Peach: maybe +1, but I'm leaning towards +2
vs Pit: 0 or +1
vs Squirtle: +1

Will provide thoughts on specific matchups if requested.

 

[Skelterai]

Why do you think Wolf has advantage over Peach? My state has a really good Peach player and several really good Wolf players, including Filthy Casual. But he heavily dislikes the Peach/Wolf matchup because of dsmash and offstage gimps.

Peach has a lot of the same combos on Wolf as she does with Fox and Falco, so why do you feel it's in Wolf's Favor?

 

[Taytertot]

maybe im bias as a PM player who came from a lot of competitive brawl and am used to dealing with grenades but i dont feel like snake's projectiles are all that great (especially since snake doesnt get to have 2 grenades out at the same time) and i feel that any character with a projectile can outcamp snake somewhat easily as long as they pay attention to when snake pulls out his grenade and how much time is left before it goes off. Once youve got that down its not that hard to avoid taking significant damage from it and because of that snake's ability to force approaches becomes quite lacking in many MU's. id say this is the same in the snake vs DD character MU's. So i'd say pit should be able to outcamp and outmaneuver snake making the MU slightly in pit's favor.

on a similar note: why is snake vs roy even? i see no reason why roy shouldnt be able to avoid taking damage from grenades if roy pays attention to the grenade timing. without grenades snake cant force roy to approach so roy can just bait out tilts, etc. from snake with DD and then punish. Once roy has a hold on snake he can combo snake to death since snake doesnt have good defensive aerials to deal with disjoints below him so roy shouldnt have much trouble in juggling snake and setting up an easy edgeguard.
the only thing roy has to watch out for is dsmash mines which roy shouldnt be giving snake space to feel comfortable setting up in the first place. C4 mines shouldnt be a problem as long as roy is keeping the pressure on snake since roy can punish snake for trying to detonate.
If roy wins neutral most of the time and has just as a good a punish game on snake as i imagine snake has on roy and has an easier time edgeguarding snake then snake does edgeguarding roy then why wouldnt this MU be in roy's favor?

 

[Skelterai]

A lot of new age Roy players are CC->dtilt until they die. It's Roy's easiest combo starter. That means tranq darts are a little more relevant. Also, Snake has long range with Nair, and overall good combos on Roy.

Also because he can camp Roy and play grab games, and can CC any of Roy's aerial approaches, and that gives him the opening he needs. Couple that with Snake's stage presence, and the matchup doesn't look one sided at all.

I would say this matchup is pretty even and I played these characters a lot in 3.0 and 3.5

 

[Skelterai]

Besides, Roy camping snake doesn't seem like a good strategy to me. I can watch grenades all day, but he can set mines anywhere he wants in that scenario, Dash Dancing with the occasional WD catch ->glide toss is fine too, but honestly, the way to most commonly beat snake is to not let him plant anything on stage, similar to preventing Diddy from pulling bananas.

Personally, I'd take this matchup as, Grab a lot, Up air a lot, get offstage a lot.

Limiting Snake's time on ground just makes more sense.

 

[Soft Serve]

I don't think any of Wolf's listed -1s (Lucario, Marth, Samus, Yoshi) are actually disadvantageous matchups. Anyone want to talk about them for a bit?

vs Link: +2
vs Peach: maybe +1, but I'm leaning towards +2
vs Pit: 0 or +1
vs Squirtle: +1

Will provide thoughts on specific matchups if requested.

Wolf beats lucario solidly. I think peach is evenish, it's not great but it's not bad for wolf, you just have to play lamer. Same with samus. Wolf beats yoshi easily, it's just some yoshi mains that insisted yoshi can cc shield between nair hits (he cant) that has lead to some people thinking wolf loses.

Honestly wolf's only mus that might be negative are fox/falco/peach/samus, all closer to even than actually bad.

 

[Taytertot]

A lot of new age Roy players are CC->dtilt until they die. It's Roy's easiest combo starter. That means tranq darts are a little more relevant. Also, Snake has long range with Nair, and overall good combos on Roy.

Also because he can camp Roy and play grab games, and can CC any of Roy's aerial approaches, and that gives him the opening he needs. Couple that with Snake's stage presence, and the matchup doesn't look one sided at all.

I would say this matchup is pretty even and I played these characters a lot in 3.0 and 3.5

i agree that the CC dtilt strategy doesnt work quite as well in this MU but i think that simply DD near enough to snake that tranq dart feels too committal should avoid that issue. yes snake has nair but that only challenges roys nair and fair and doesnt help snake if roy is below him since uair outranges all of snakes aerials clean.

i also agree that snake has good combos on roy but roy also has good combos on snake.

I dont see how snake can camp roy hard. as long as roy watches the grenades closely and has the timing committed to memory roy should be able to shield them from far range or just plain avoid them. once roy has closed the gap and is around roy's tipper ftilt range roy shoould simply pressure snake with DD to make snake nervous. from that distance snake cant safely throw out grenades or setup mines. to be clear i think the DD camping should be spaced somewhat close to snake, for example if snake is camping on one side then roy should be DDing just past center stage on snakes side of the stage. if roy wants to throw out an aerial on snake then roy should always be landing behind snake so that snake doesnt have an easy way to CC it and punish.

I completely agree with you on trying to keep snake in the air. i am simply explain why i think roy can win neutral in order to get snake into the air in the first place.

 

[Skelterai]

Lol yeah but I don't think Roy has too favorable of a matchup. Fighting a really experienced Snake is difficult because of all the attacks he has for stage pressure. Between his Dacus, dsmash, C4, and Nades, along with long range pokes, it's not what I'd call a favorable matchup with someone who has no projectile attack.

Even with constant Shield pressure, Snake still has up B OoS and that can spell a lot of difficult problems for any approaching Roy.

Sure, you can stop Snake from camping, but Roy is more pressured to approach in the matchup, because Snake can throw out so much that any stage becomes his advantage quickly.

EDIT:
Think of it like this. The Diddy matchup poses a problem for Roy. Banana is a huge factor and Diddy's speed and combo ability make it a harder matchup for Roy, especially because he doesn't have offstage gimps or a projectile, two things that greatly help against Diddy.

Snake is of course, a different character, but that doesn't mean the same weaknesses don't apply. Snake can toss nades at Roy until he has his Dsmash setup.

Then he can warily approach with a lot of attacks, because the stage is suddenly in his favor, especially if he starts throwing out up smash. If Snake decides not to approach, he could Toss nades all day. Roy would just be playing catch, and be forced to approach since he has no good reactions to camping besides approaching.

 

[JesteRace]

The 2 missing numbers for Link's MU's are Squirtle and Wolf. Incidentally, 2 matchups I play a lot in my region. I'll try to weigh in.

Link vs. Squirtle is +1 in Link's favor. Link can be very hard for Squirtle to approach, between bombs and well-spaced disjoints. Link's OOS options also cover alot of Squirtle's mixups on shield. This might even be +2 on stages like FD. Make no mistake, though, Squirtle can wreck Link's **** if he gets in. Squirtle loves Link's combo weight and fall speed and the punish game is nasty.
Link has a pretty good punish game on Squirtle's fall speed/weight too though. It really just comes down to Link winning the neutral.

Link vs. Wolf is -1. As if Link didn't have enough trouble with heavy pressure. Wolf'so shield pressure feels like the hardest to deal with out of all the spacies. He has all the things that make Link hate the other spacies, but I still maintain that this is -1 because unlike Fox and Falco, you can actually kind of keep Wolf out with projectiles. It's not easy, and you have to be ready for him to get in, but he's not as blindingly fast as Fox and his laser doesn't command the entire neutral game like Falco.

I also think Fox is more -2. -3 seems a bit harsh. Abuse disjoints and zair. Read incoming aerials with WD back>Dsmash. Extend your punishes(duh). It's hard, but it's not any harder than Falco.

Lucario is not -3. Link has a better neutral game and with Lucario's fall speed/weight, Link's punish game isn't that much worse. It seems pretty even, tbh.

MK is not -2. Link has better range, and an equally good punish game in this matchup. MK's pressure is nothing like spacies so Link can actually deal with it. Again, seems pretty even. Maybe even +1 for Link on certain stages.

I dual-main Luigi so I'll weigh in on the numbers I disagree with for him soon.

 

[Kneato]

This chart just became a buttload more important.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

This chart just became a buttload more important.

So I've heard. Well...

 

[nimigoha]

AuraMaudeGone in your frame data dump spreadsheet, is everything up to date as of 3.6?

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

AuraMaudeGone in your frame data dump spreadsheet, is everything up to date as of 3.6?

Odd place to ask me, but yes it should be. I started doing corrections a while ago as you can see, then IRL things >> Smash

 

[ECHOnce]

EDIT: AuraMaudeGone I made a thing.
Took about an hour or two. I'd be down to reorder your chart on a monthly basis, if you're cool with it. Even if it's to not be updated, I figured it would at least be nice to have this as a base to look back to. ;___;b

This chart just became a buttload more important.

Maybe pinned thread worthy? To make it more easily visible, get some more people in here.

 

[Tobb99]

Nice matchup chart!

some things I noticed:

Jiggs - Dedede: Is this matchup that bad for DDD? I thought it was even or advantageous for DDD.
Jiggs - Bowser: Didn't this matchup used to be in bowsers favor?

Ice Climbers - Meta Knight: I think I've heard Phresh say that this is advantageous for Icies or even.

 

[Bazkip]

Jiggs - Dedede: Is this matchup that bad for DDD? I thought it was even or advantageous for DDD.
Jiggs - Bowser: Didn't this matchup used to be in bowsers favor?

Giant rest targets

 

[Tobb99]

Giant rest targets

Well y but they can both destroy jiggs in a few hits. Even if she rest, she'll get F-smashed so basically trading stocks.

Dedede has the jumps, fair to combat puff's air game, also strong tilts. Lives forever if not rested, and hard to edgeguard as well.

I don't know much of Bowser but I've heard up-B is strong, as well as fair and f-tilt kills pretty early as well.

 

[shairn]

Bowser can CC rest at early percents, survive and punish Jiggs. Also rest setups don't really work if Bowser is crouching.
He has a guaranteed kill from KK fthrow if she doesn't DI or doesn't DI enough. Most of her moves in the neutral are absorbed by CC/crouch armor.

 

[Tobb99]

hmm also noticed: Jiggs is even with Peach. That matchup was hell for Peach in melee and those characters haven't changed that much in PM, so probably a 60-40 matchup, or 55-45 at least.

 

[DMG]

Will go over a decent number of CF MU's since many seem off by a bit atm

Format: Number = Falcon perspective (+2 Falcon wins vs character listed, -2 he loses)

Spoiler

Bowser / +2 or +2.5
Zard / +1
ICs / +2
Ivy / +2
Mewtwo / 0
Olimar / 0
Pit / +2
ROB / 0
Snake / +1
Sonic / 0
Squirtle / +1
Yoshi / +2
ZSS / +1

Most of these are only 1 point shifts but they are more accurate ratings IMO.

 

[Deleted member]

Will go over a decent number of CF MU's since many seem off by a bit atm

Format: Number = Falcon perspective (+2 Falcon wins vs character listed, -2 he loses)

Spoiler

Bowser / +2 or +2.5
Zard / +1
ICs / +2
Ivy / +2
Mewtwo / 0
Olimar / 0
Pit / +2
ROB / 0
Snake / +1
Sonic / 0
Squirtle / +1
Yoshi / +2
ZSS / +1

Most of these are only 1 point shifts but they are more accurate ratings IMO.

i think you should put CF as +1 on mewtwo. mewtwo doesnt have many losing MUs but CF might be his worst in the entire game.