Data Prepare Yourself (Ike Match-up thread)

[PyroTakun]

I'm not even sure if it's worth trying to approach from the air, with the exception of the occasional SH Nair that can be somewhat unexpected. Whiffs by us can allow for easy punishes for her that can lead to enormous damage rack-ups (I estimate about 20-30% at least), thanks to her low knockback attacks and Ike's relatively poor anti-juggling options. Ike's spacing has to be pretty spot-on and that's not always the easiest thing against faster characters like Sheik.

I'd say, at least from my limited experience against Sheiks on WiFi and tournament matches, ground approaches seem to work best here, even if her needles limit us. Fast movements are definitely key here and the few opportunities that we get a set-up going, we should take full advantage and try to rack up % as much as possible.

Eruption is a free kill almost every time with good timing so it's not a bad idea to use it to edgeguard as much as possible.

I agree with this, except for the last part. I find Eruption difficult to use as an edgeguard because Bouncing Fish just seems to out-prioritize it from my experience.

Might just be me though.

If anyone can go on YT and search "ZeRo vs SM" I would appreciate it (I can't provide links yet)
Here's a video of what NOT to do against Diddy. XD

I felt like from this day that my movement with Ike has significantly gotten better (in general) and becoming aware of many options that Ike can do against Diddy. I just completely felt like I couldn't do much with Ike AT THIS MOMENT and went Mario the second match. So to stay focus on the first match I am aware of many of the mistakes I was making but any feedback from ANYONE will be appreciated.

I was thinking we should cover Diddy next.

 

[NeoArcadiaX_SM]

I agree with this, except for the last part. I find Eruption difficult to use as an edgeguard because Bouncing Fish just seems to out-prioritize it from my experience.

Might just be me though.

I was thinking we should cover Diddy next.

Yeah my bad I forgotten we were talking about Sheik first. Sorry about that.

 

[WorstGanonWorld]

Have you tried answering Shieks bouncing fish with Uptilt/Up angled Ftilt? That might help
And does someone know if Ike´s counter is fast enough to hit Shiek out of bouncing fish?

 

[NeoArcadiaX_SM]

Another thing to add on, I am sure many of you guys have figured this out but Ike actually has a true KO combo on Sheik around ~90%. I have tested this in training room. Uthrow to uair can connect if timed correctly AND if the opponent DI's incorrectly (right above you). However I don't think it can work if they DI away from you. Just something to add on, sorry if this is old news lol.

 

[Yoh]

Counter should be fast enough, yeah.

I´m not sure about uthrow uair, can they really DI away from it so its not true? Can someone confirm that?
And shouldn´t fair or nair connect if they can DI away form uair?
Also don´t forget if you got to much rage, it doesn´t work anymore.

 

[NeoArcadiaX_SM]

Counter should be fast enough, yeah.

I´m not sure about uthrow uair, can they really DI away from it so its not true? Can someone confirm that?
And shouldn´t fair or nair connect if they can DI away form uair?
Also don´t forget if you got to much rage, it doesn´t work anymore.

If they DI right above you and you time your double jump properly it will be a true combo, I checked the hits and it ended up being 3, yeah I know in rage mode it won't work out hence why I said around 90%. For uthrow to uair, they can actually DI away from it.

If a true combo means a hit will connect regardless where they DI, then I apologize for the misinterpretation.

I am pretty sure if they DI away from you a fair will connect around the same percentage (once again with proper timing and positioning on your double jumps). I have yet to test that out. A nair will definitely connect around this situation and in fact be more reliable since it will hit regardless where they DI (it all depends on how you approach in the air.)

Edit: I just tested it out, around 105-110% on Sheik an uthrow to nair will actually end up killing her. I am pretty sure this one is a true combo (3 hits) regardless where they DI.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Can we talk about Lucario now? I know the topic got changed to "vs. Sheik", but since that's been a week or so, let's talk about Lucario or Olimar since they're toxic to Ike as well.

 

[PyroTakun]

Can we talk about Lucario now? I know the topic got changed to "vs. Sheik", but since that's been a week or so, let's talk about Lucario or Olimar since they're toxic to Ike as well.

Well @ NeoArcadiaX_SM requested Diddy first, so we'll switch it over to that for now and Lucario next.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Er

We shouldn't be switching at all right now.

We didn't invite any Sheiks over to talk about the MU. Any MU analyzing without people from the other side is pretty worthless.

 

[PyroTakun]

Er

We shouldn't be switching at all right now.

We didn't invite any Sheiks over to talk about the MU. Any MU analyzing without people from the other side is pretty worthless.

I did invite them over, but it fell on deaf ears :/

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Diddy is a major pain. Safe on everything, and you can do nothing until he gets rid of the Banana except play extreme defense. His random fairs beat any attempt you get at short-hopping or even your own retreat Fairs.

I'm watching some of my replays and I'd really like to put this here since I don't know where else I can put it right now. If no one else talks about Diddy, then discussing Lucario would be great.

Lucario:

-Aura Sphere will break your Aether even at the lowest point of your recovery
-Bair is as strong as yours on max aura, as well as very safe
-Aura Sphere in the air gives him lateral movement and cancels his direction.
-His Side B breaks your shield, even if you shielded for only a second. This is a surefire kill with high aura.
-Overall very hard to hit due to Fair and Nair combos.
-His Nair is safe on landing and hard to punish
-Uses B charge as a combo juggle move and to keep you off of him.
-A number of ways to keep you from using Eruption while he recovers, such as throwing out Aura Sphere or Side B while coming down.

 

[NeoArcadiaX_SM]

True, Diddy is difficult to deal with, however it is doable. With my experience in fighting against this character, you want to play completely defensive (retreat dash grab, retreat fairs/bairs). If approaching Diddy is inevitable use SH fairs and SH bairs that auto-cancel and properly space them out so that you don't get punished. If you are going to approach with SH nairs, then mix it up with empty hops so that you can create an opening. This applies to any character that is generally faster than Ike and can easily punish his SH nair/fair/bair approach that doesn't auto cancel. Try to avoid any move that has lag on it as a decent Diddy player can just run up to shield and grab. Retreat nairs would seem like a proper move to use in this MU as long as you don't get too obvious with it.

Edit: Getting him offstage to recover is key in this MU. Diddy doesn't have a lot of options. Using Eruption can be a bit tricky with his upB recovery, it's all about timing it correctly. Bait his side b with fair. Edge trump to bair is pretty effective but if he starts to catch on mix it up with an usmash against the ledge. If they roll immediately back on stage the usmash will get him. If they immediately jump away from the ledge after grabbing it and are expecting you to edge trump just charge the usmash a bit longer until Diddy is within range.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

What do you generally follow up your approach SH fairs with?

 

[NeoArcadiaX_SM]

What do you generally follow up your approach SH fairs with?

After SH fair approach I generally follow up with a perfect pivot dtilt. I am still in the process of completely mastering it, but it's really effective and safe compare to normal dtilt which can get punished by run up and approach with shield. Depending on the opponent SH fair to dtilt can work out since dtilt comes out really fast and doesn't have a lot of recovery frames.

 

[san.]

I don't know much about the MU since no one in my region uses him. I do know a few standard things.

-Diddy's uair hits on both the left and the right depending on where it lands. DI away from the side you were hit on. In other words, if you get hit by uair's right hitbox, DI right. If you get hit by the left hitbox, DI left. It doesn't matter which way Diddy himself is facing. Because of this, it's difficult to say whether DIing 1 way all the time is the best choice (heard things like always DI towards him and the like).

-Be aggressive against Monkey Flip. If Diddy is offstage, he's gonna use that move if you're also pressuring his double jump use. Monkey flip has a smash version that moves faster, so be cautious with that. Use anything to get him to upB. If he upBs, you can actually counter it surprisingly enough, which helps against holding the upB strategies to disrupt your timing.

I don't know much more than any of these other comments about what to do onstage.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

I don't know much about the MU since no one in my region uses him. I do know a few standard things.

-Diddy's uair hits on both the left and the right depending on where it lands. DI away from the side you were hit on. In other words, if you get hit by uair's right hitbox, DI right. If you get hit by the left hitbox, DI left. It doesn't matter which way Diddy himself is facing. Because of this, it's difficult to say whether DIing 1 way all the time is the best choice (heard things like always DI towards him and the like).

-Be aggressive against Monkey Flip. If Diddy is offstage, he's gonna use that move if you're also pressuring his double jump use. Monkey flip has a smash version that moves faster, so be cautious with that. Use anything to get him to upB. If he upBs, you can actually counter it surprisingly enough, which helps against holding the upB strategies to disrupt your timing.

I don't know much more than any of these other comments about what to do onstage.

Wait, so Counter > Rocketbarrel Boost?

 

[Trunks159]

Just fought an ok Diddy. You pretty much have to play defense. Though not stationary. If you keep moving, shorthopping, retreating pivot grab, creating walls of nairs and occasionally fairs, you only have to worry about bananas, and getting juggled, which can get pretty harsh. Overall, spacing Diddy out and playing mindgames are probably your best options.

 

[san.]

Wait, so Counter > Rocketbarrel Boost?

It'll hit him as long as he isn't max speed and close to the ledge when the counter begins. Counter can also stop the likes of Mario's upB and similar. I don't think it will kill Diddy if he plays his cards right, but it's something to throw out. It can even get people during the 1 frame vulnerability when snapping to the ledge if you're lucky. I'm not sure how quick a recovery needs to be for counter to miss, so I think some experimentation is required.

Diddy is a fast faller, so our throw combos are easier to perform. I practice the most against these kinds of characters, so it's easy to take for granted how easy it is to combo them compared to floatier characters.

From what I can see, I think Diddy can overwhelm us, but we can compete with a few good hits and offstage punishment.

 

[HmwkLater]

Little Mac may have speed and a great ground game, but Ike has range and a better air game

Here is what I found to be a problem with Little Mac. Against players that knows how to space well, Ike hits pretty much dead end. Not only does Little Mac's Dsmash incredibly fast and long ranged, his smash attacks have super armor. This is something to really consider, or it'll be Ike that will be getting juggled. His fsmash's onetwo attack practically ignores all of safe approach for Ike, like f-tilt and d-tilt. Range on that is long. Very long, considering how he ignores your attack and digs in deeper. Grab is also difficult as his jabs come out faster that Ike's arm reaching out. One of the fastest jab in the game. Good LM players don't shield much, so less opportunity for us. Honestly, it all comes down to being patient. Try to be less obvious with the roll directions, and rack up damage little by little, until that moment where you can hit him/grab him and toss him far enough so he can't recover. When he is using his Uspecial to recover, don't just sit around. fall to the side of the platform to be beside him and land a solid hit. He will bounce off the wall further away and that is a guaranteed kill.

 

[MetaBhreat]

I did invite them over, but it fell on deaf ears :/

Not entirely my friend.

Of all the characters, I am the most well versed vs. Ike.
So Sheik, huh? I'm a little late to the party, but I'll try to contribute what I know. You already have a lot of good points made.

The throwing knives

Needles.
Sheik has a huge advantage because of needles. I cannot stress how much control it gives us. You may be able to get in a SH Nair, but not often.

The offstage game is another big advantage for Sheik. Everyone knows that Sheik does not possess the same raw kill power as Ike, or almost any other character, for that matter. But we gimp like there's no tomorrow. And unfortunately for you all, Ike does not have the best recovery. Aether can get the job done, and it is your best option. A good Sheik will punish a Quickdraw unless you sweetspot the edge. Sheik wins the offstage game hands down.

At this point I'm tempted to say the matchup is 75:25 or 70:30 in Sheik's favor, but we know that there's more to the Radiant Hero of Dawn than that.

Firstly, I would like to address Ike's counter. Against Sheik, it is good therefore bad. What? The counter can break you out of combos, turn a big hit into a kill move, and throw off Sheik's game. It's a fairly reliable option.
But here's how Ike's counter is a poopy-bad thing. The moment you realize how good it is you want to use it more. And more.
If an Ike does this against me I'm going to start baiting it, and because it's a good option, you're going to fall for it.
My advice is save the counter. Take a few of Sheik's Fairs and save that counter for when it really counts.

Next, and some of you have touched on this already, Ike hits like a man and can make up a lot of damage in a few hits.
Just don't get greedy. Make it count and get out.

Oh and Ike's weight gives you a bit more survivability vs. Sheik.

Have you tried answering Shieks bouncing fish with Uptilt/Up angled Ftilt? That might help
And does someone know if Ike´s counter is fast enough to hit Shiek out of bouncing fish?

Sheik can be hit out of Bouncing Fish, but it's awkward. The hitbox on the move is disjointed as all hell and reacting accurately with a tilt is extremely hard.
Countering should be fast enough, but I actually don't know if the counter's hit connects, seeing as Sheik backflips away after Bouncing Fish connects. That is something I would say is worth testing.

Eruption is a free kill almost every time

No.

with good timing so it's not a bad idea to use it to edgeguard

Yes

as much as possible.

Not really.

All in all, I would put the match up at 63:37 in Sheik's favor.
Needle control, offstage game, and combos vs. big sword, counter, and weight.

Sorry that I was late, and I hope this helps.

 

[PyroTakun]

Not entirely my friend.

Of all the characters, I am the most well versed vs. Ike.
So Sheik, huh? I'm a little late to the party, but I'll try to contribute what I know. You already have a lot of good points made.


Needles.
Sheik has a huge advantage because of needles. I cannot stress how much control it gives us. You may be able to get in a SH Nair, but not often.

The offstage game is another big advantage for Sheik. Everyone knows that Sheik does not possess the same raw kill power as Ike, or almost any other character, for that matter. But we gimp like there's no tomorrow. And unfortunately for you all, Ike does not have the best recovery. Aether can get the job done, and it is your best option. A good Sheik will punish a Quickdraw unless you sweetspot the edge. Sheik wins the offstage game hands down.

At this point I'm tempted to say the matchup is 75:25 or 70:30 in Sheik's favor, but we know that there's more to the Radiant Hero of Dawn than that.

Firstly, I would like to address Ike's counter. Against Sheik, it is good therefore bad. What? The counter can break you out of combos, turn a big hit into a kill move, and throw off Sheik's game. It's a fairly reliable option.
But here's how Ike's counter is a poopy-bad thing. The moment you realize how good it is you want to use it more. And more.
If an Ike does this against me I'm going to start baiting it, and because it's a good option, you're going to fall for it.
My advice is save the counter. Take a few of Sheik's Fairs and save that counter for when it really counts.

Next, and some of you have touched on this already, Ike hits like a man and can make up a lot of damage in a few hits.
Just don't get greedy. Make it count and get out.

Oh and Ike's weight gives you a bit more survivability vs. Sheik.


Sheik can be hit out of Bouncing Fish, but it's awkward. The hitbox on the move is disjointed as all hell and reacting accurately with a tilt is extremely hard.
Countering should be fast enough, but I actually don't know if the counter's hit connects, seeing as Sheik backflips away after Bouncing Fish connects. That is something I would say is worth testing.


No.
Yes

Not really.

All in all, I would put the match up at 63:37 in Sheik's favor.
Needle control, offstage game, and combos vs. big sword, counter, and weight.

Sorry that I was late, and I hope this helps.

First off, I'd like to thank you for coming over to the Ike boards and giving out your advice on the Sheik Match-Up

Second, you're completely right about needles. I've played against some aggro Sheiks and managed to pull out wins, but when I went to Apex and had to fight campy Sheiks that abused needles, I really couldn't do much of anything. As for the counter vs Bouncing Fish, it's a toss-up. I've had it hit sometimes, and other times Sheik bounces away before the swing connects.

I definitely believe this is Ike's worst MU (at least from my experience) and I agree with 70-30 or 65-35 in Sheik's favor.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

3-7 was the ratio for the MK MU in Brawl.

Sheik ain't anywhere near as bad. That MU in Brawl was "hit a wrong button once and you're off stage and dead". A wrong button against Sheik is "more damage tacked on".

Its most likely 4-6. Frankly I don't think any of Ike's MUs are outside of the 4-6 to 6-4 range.

 

[san.]

35-65 at this point imo. Realistically, it may be a bit better since Sheik gets punished hard against an Ike with rage, and most Sheiks haven't reached the point of avoiding those mistakes entirely.

 

[MetaBhreat]

I agree with everything here. Of course, I'm thinking of the MU in a theoretical way: a Sheik who knows the MU and plays it well and an Ike with the same, respectively. I'm absolutely sure that you'll come across Sheiks who don't play the MU right and then it's nowhere near 65:35. My opinion is 63:37, but, like I said, that's theoretical.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

If Sheik is Ike's worst matchup, that's actually a relief. I've had problems with Olimar, Lucario, Meta Knight, King Dedede, Kirby and others. Of course, I was losing to a better player, so this might have just come down to my lack of experience in said matchups.

Either way, I'm happy to know Ike is otherwise a much better character in this game than he ever was in Brawl.

 

[Mario766]

Sheik has to be the worst match-up for Ike.


It's gotten to the point where if I lose to a Sheik, I don't care.

but damn do I pop off if I beat one.

 

[Arrei]

Yep, between her needles, her aerials messing with our spacing attempts and her phenomenal gimping game, I'd hazard that guess too.

The key thing is to keep your cool against her, I think. She is going to get hits in on you, but as long as you don't let her gimp you, you can survive a very long time against her attacks, requiring her to go for unsafe moves eventually, which Ike can punish heavily on shield.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Stay on the ground with Sheik. You said it yourself. Aerials.

 

[Trunks159]

Wouldn't it be better to just pick someone else?

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Wouldn't it be better to just pick someone else?

That depends on your principles.

 

[Trunks159]

Its like face MK in Brawl, just use someone else, or youll probably loose.

 

[Arrei]

Like was said before, the matchup is tough, but nowhere near that level. As long as you don't get gimped, Ike will generally stick around deep into the 100s until he gets hit by an offstage aerial or one of Sheik's unsafe moves, giving him plenty of time to rack up damage until he can kill Sheik as soon as one of her unsafe moves gets blocked. For example, if Sheik tries to FSmash with 90% damage and gets blocked, Utilt will end her right there.

 

[Mario766]

Stay on the ground with Sheik. You said it yourself. Aerials.

That doesn't help, at all. You have to create space using F-Air and N-Air. If you stay on the ground, your only real option is jab 1.

Down tilt works if Sheik is in down tilt range, but the endlag on it is punishable if whiffed. There has to be a lot of pivot and foxtrotting needed to keep your spacing correct and Sheik kinda just doesn't care.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

That doesn't help, at all. You have to create space using F-Air and N-Air. If you stay on the ground, your only real option is jab 1.

Down tilt works if Sheik is in down tilt range, but the endlag on it is punishable if whiffed. There has to be a lot of pivot and foxtrotting needed to keep your spacing correct and Sheik kinda just doesn't care.

Yeah, but she reads and charges in with aerials like no other. I've learned it's better to actually use more ground game than air-game against Sheik. Sure, you have to use your aerials, but compared to other characters, you have to significantly limit it.

 

[Arrei]

The main thing is that Sheik moves faster than Ike does in the air and has speed and range on her aerials to boot, so there is a high chance a competent Sheik will be able to intrude on your space and stick her boot in your mouth before your sword can stop her. Nair can defend against that, but the fact that it does not autocancel makes it riskier because of how Sheik is able to capitalize on its minute landing lag, making retreating Fair and Bair your only real options for aerial spacing - Nair is more suited for punishing instead.

Conversely, in close quarters Sheik only has her jab and tilts to stop you, which, while fast, are a lot easier to deal with with good defense because of Ike's jab1 speed and her comparatively low range. Sheik does not want you at that uncomfortable range, so she will either try to mount an offensive or evade you, giving you a chance to get damage on her.

 

[NeoArcadiaX_SM]

Is it an appropriate time to talk about Olimar now?

 

[GhostUrsa]

With Sheik, I've found a couple of things. First is that I concur with Durango that you need to limit your time in the air. Her Air Game is much better than Ike's, that you'll want to keep it limited to sure things or surprises. Retreating short-hop N-airs for when Sheik is going for a rushdown, or a surprise Aerial knockout of stage when you've been lulling her with edge guarding are good examples. The needles are annoying, but no more so than Falco's Laser due to it's hitstun. (Personally, I find it easier to force Sheik to fire them early in the air since its got a downward arc instead of a straight one like Falco. Some dash-dancing or a good Shield play will allow a OoS U-Smash!) It can be anticipated, and if you can get her to fire them early it is punishable since she has to charge them to use them.

Counter is a good thing for Bouncing Fish, and it can connect. The trick is the contact point of bouncing fish. If her foot hits your heat or face, she'll be able to leap over your blade (but not be able to punish since her lag is as bad as your counter's). But if she hits the shoulder or lower, Ike will be planting Ragnell in her ribcage. And it can hurt! Especially at higher percentages.

Sheik's got the major speed advantage, but she has little killing power with Ike's weight. (Her smashs and possible teleport are the only real ways to get you unless you are at a ridiculous %) This makes it so Ike can make it to high 100's or even 200's before she can actually make the kill. As others have said, we have the staying power and only really need to fear being gimped off stage.

Once she is off stage, Ike has a large advantage if his feet are planted on the ground. Quite a few of her recovery moves have a bit of lag, so as long as Ike doesn't get caught in the flames of her teleport he can easily punish if she gets around him.

I agree with the 60/40 in Sheik's favor odds. It's a tough battle, but not an over-powering one.

 

[GhostUrsa]

Is it an appropriate time to talk about Olimar now?

I'd be curious about what others have to say, though I've only fought one Olimar online so far so I'd not have enough experience to help with the MU info.

 

[Arrei]

What little info I can give against Olimar is to approach him from the air when possible. His Pikmin attacks give him a deceptively long disjointed reach for such a stubby little guy, but his aerials are all short range except for Pikmin Toss. This is, of course, made more difficult by him being so short, so Nairs and FF Fairs will be your best options - just as always make sure you're not charging straight into a shield, since he still has a great grab.

Olimar is also prime Eruption bait when recovering. His recovery has rather limited time in the air, giving him little time to play mindgames with his movement. When recovering low, it'll be easy to see when he's going for the ledge, and when he's recovering from the middle he'll often not quite have the vertical clearance he needs to sail over a charged Eruption's hitbox, at least not without going into a lengthy freefall for an easy USmash afterward, so he's dead if he tries that.

 

[GhostUrsa]

What little info I can give against Olimar is to approach him from the air when possible. His Pikmin attacks give him a deceptively long disjointed reach for such a stubby little guy, but his aerials are all short range except for Pikmin Toss. This is, of course, made more difficult by him being so short, so Nairs and FF Fairs will be your best options - just as always make sure you're not charging straight into a shield, since he still has a great grab.

Olimar is also prime Eruption bait when recovering. His recovery has rather limited time in the air, giving him little time to play mindgames with his movement. When recovering low, it'll be easy to see when he's going for the ledge, and when he's recovering from the middle he'll often not quite have the vertical clearance he needs to sail over a charged Eruption's hitbox, at least not without going into a lengthy freefall for an easy USmash afterward, so he's dead if he tries that.

An observation I've made about the Pikmin is that their hurtbox still exists when they are attached to you after a Pikmin Toss, so removing them can be fairly easy as long as you either have the space (so you don't get punished) or bait him so you can use an attack that has it's hitbox pass through your character a little during it's attack. I find that U-Tilt and Eruption can effectively remove the buggers so you don't have your % leak. U-Tilt is best since it's ending lag is shorter than Eruption, but depending on the situation they are both viable. Other attacks can work, but it will depend on where the pikmin is attached. I've has U-smash or D-smash work sometimes when the pikmin is attached to my head or knees respectively.