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Data Prepare Yourself (Ike Match-up thread)

Arrei

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Oof, I've been having a hell of a time against good Marios, especially when they cover their landings well with the sex kick and tornado. Getting grabbed is lethal for obvious reasons, and recovering low is commonly a bad idea between the cape and FLUDD. I think I need more experience against him, my attempts at spacing seem to pan out quite poorly when facing him versus most other characters. I'm not entirely sure what I can punish and how to go about doing so.
 
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Rango the Mercenary

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Oof, I've been having a hell of a time against good Marios, especially when they cover their landings well with the sex kick and tornado. Getting grabbed is lethal for obvious reasons, and recovering low is commonly a bad idea between the cape and FLUDD. I think I need more experience against him, my attempts at spacing seem to pan out quite poorly when facing him versus most other characters. I'm not entirely sure what I can punish and how to go about doing so.
Side B rides the waves of FLUDD. Best way to recover low is learn Ike's max Aether height in Training. What's that, you ask? It's literally when he hits the bottom edge of the screen. When his bottom half is on the bottom of the screen, AETHER! Max height.
 

Arrei

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Quick Draw recoveries are good, yeah, but it's getting gimped during Aether that keeps getting me. I can recover pretty low with Aether successfully, but even when I recovered pretty close to as low as I could get earlier tonight, I still got FLUDDed.


I really hate that goddamn Cape, though. I instinctively start to point the control stick away from the stage when I see I've been reversed even though that's not how it works, and it gets me killed all the time.
 
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NeoArcadiaX_SM

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Can someone help me derive the Ike and Olimar MU. I played against Rich Brown at my 3rd tourney and got completely wrecked.
 

Arrei

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He's been a big pain in my rear, too, and the only things I've been able to glean from my encounters with them is what NOT to do:

- Don't be directly below Mario if you can help it, between his Nair and his tornado he's able to throw out a long-lasting hitbox to challenge you in no time at all.
- His dash attack's hitbox lasts deceptively long, so don't go for a jab from too close thinking it's the perfect punish opportunity when he uses it or you're likely to get hit by the tail end of it.
- He's going to be hungry for the grabs early on for that Utilt combo, so in the neutral don't risk anything that isn't a clear shot or doesn't autocancel.

Good spacing is important, as usual, but is especially crucial against Marty-o because of his Nair, which is practically lagless and can prevent your approach, and because if you don't control your space well enough he's going to go for the grab for sure. Punishing his fireballs with a fastfall Fair or Bair can work, but can easily put you at risk as well, so going for a grab instead could be the safer option if the timing's off.

Defensive play might be the better option against Mario, actually, since his attacks are mostly difficult to punish.

For recovery, go high with Quick Draw if you can - with FLUDD and his cape he can screw with Ike's recoveries like you wouldn't believe. Waiting as long as possible before using Aether might be safe, but I have yet to make a successful Aether recovery against a well-aimed FLUDD - I'd like to know if that's even doable, myself.
 

GhostUrsa

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I'm still making up my mind on :4bowserjr:. Cannonballs are easy to get around, and some of his smashes have a bad enough windup to avoid easily. I'm still figuring out my best options when he does his go-kart drive or ejection. For the go-kart, I like to either short hop n-air or counter depending on the distance he's trying to cover. Neither feel like an great option though. As for the ejection, his hammer attack is pretty fast which I haven't found a good way to bait for anything substantial yet. My gut instinct tells me it's fairly even, with maybe Junior having a slight advantage due to his zoning and dash attack speed.
 

EndlessRain

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Fox main here. I recently picked up Ike because I find him easier to use than Fox in the Sonic MU. I hate Sonic.
I'm looking into learning the character a little more deeply. I'm alright with him, and the sudden, drastic change in playstyle can throw off opponents enough to make up for some of my lack of experience. However, I'm still nowhere near good enough, so I need to dedicate a bit more time to learning him.
To that end I come here: I want to learn Ike to cover my deficiencies as Fox in the Sonic, Pika and Yoshi matchups. Obviously, there's no point if he can't handle these characters, so before I go crazy with the training, I need to know.
What do you, the Ike players of our great boards, think of the Yoshi and Pikachu matchups? (Yoshi is more important, that MU is like 70:30 Yoshi vs. Fox...)
 

Nidtendofreak

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For the Sonic MU, I'll give you my Copy + Paste from another topic:

If they're spinning, I shield the moment they stop charging and start flying at me.

That was actually a pretty major part of my game against the two Sonics I played again. It basically stopped all of their mixups, which they had used to good success against their previous opponents. Unless there is some sort of mysterious tech that they (and I) didn't know about, they can't cancel Side B or Down B directly into grab. After that they either canceled it early (react to what they do after that as needed), canceled it behind me (Bair bait), or canceled it after jumping up and through me (Utilt/Usmash/Uair/Bair/Nair/Turn-Around Aether bait).

If they weren't trying to spin dash me, I focused heavily on Fair/Bair/Dtilt/Jab/Grab. Didn't use any other attacks if we were both on the ground/close to the ground as they left me too open and would result in them dash grabbing me. If they tried to recover high or ending up trying to hit me with an aerial while I was on the ground I would either Utilt or Usmash depending on the situation. Usmash is dangerous, they can bait you by moving into the edge of Usmash range, then homing attack (which raises them up and out of range as you swing), then smash into you during your recovery time. If they were recovering low I used Eruption more for forcing them to make their recovery predicable rather than trying to hit them after spring, but if it connected it connected.

If they tried to Uthrow -> Spring -> Uair me I would go for a Wavebounced Eruption. Spring would send them flying into the hitbox and then up and KO'd. It is risky though, sometimes I went for Counter instead just so I could safely get down or even just QD out of the way and fast fall back down. Counter in general I would throw out on rare occasion when I knew they were fishing for a Fsmash/Bair kill, basically to get into their head and make them try to kill me less. Nair I could get back from if it didn't outright kill me so I didn't worry much about that one in general.

I admit its a rather exhausting MU. I had to face both Sonics back to back. The second one managed to get into my head and deal about 90% damage without me being able to touch him in one of the later stocks. I then managed to string 3-4 Bairs in a row, got him off stage, and then he accidentally Dair'd while I was trying to Dair him. He was trying for Nair so he would have gotten hit anyways, but it basically sealed the game for me. Spend the last 40 seconds running away with Quickdraw and good DI.

Overall to me though, the key is forcing them to be predictable. Sonic has so many options, so you got to get into the Sonic player's head. Make them think that their spin tricks are worthless and that every time they go for a kill move you have a counter against it. Make Ike seem nearly as fast as Sonic by sticking with the moves with little to no ending lag. When you have momentum, go all out and just keep wailing on them. The moment they stop that momentum go defensive and turtle.

Pika and Yoshi unfortunately I have 0 experience in. Not even a random For Glory match.
 

NeoArcadiaX_SM

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I play Tweek a lot, what do you guys think of the Bowser Jr Match up?
I haven't fought a good Bowser Jr. yet so I can't offer much, I think the main thing you want to do is properly space Bowser Jr. out with Ike's range. His upB recovery is Eruption Bait so look out for those occasionally. Ike can actually approach Bowser Jr. with his aerials in this MU since Bowser Jr. doesn't have a lot of options out of shield, by the time he throws something out Ike will already be done in recovery frames. Maintain Ike's basic neutral game. Retreat bairs and nairs are good against his side b approach, also if you shield it and the player most likely jumps out of side b you can punish that with a bair, bait an airdodge, or condition a second jump. If he throws out dair after side b just shield it then shield grab or dtilt since it has landing lag. Feel free to correct me if I pointed out anything questionable haha.
 

san.

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It's potentially Pikachu's favor with aggressive/smart use of quick attack since it breaks our spacing game. I haven't yet ascertained how many ways we can get around it, but if you can respond to quick attack properly, you can keep pika out and kill earlier with defensive play (jabs, careful approaches) and it's our favor. There is some delay before quick attack starts, enough to fast fall into a shield most of the time. Pika needs to use smash attacks to kill most of the time, so it's likely that we'll get the first kill even when Pika is racking up more damage. It's not bad at all as long as your reflexes remain sharp vs. quick attack and prepare for aerials. Pika combos us more, but the damage racking is actually close due to Pika's poorer damage per hit.
 

Rango the Mercenary

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Mario is such a pain for Ike. Can anyone offer advice?
Your Bair outreachers his Bair, but I wouldn't play Fair vs. Bair unless you're above him or baiting it. One of the detriments in this match is, due to Ike's large hitbox, you might try to airhop out of the UTilt string. This will cause you to lose your double jump, allowing them to get more free hits in.

Mario players love to approach. When they're coming at you and it's not in the air (or close enough for a Bair), whack them with DTilt. DTilt is your friend since it will beat out any of their options. They love to pivot dash into FSmash, so you're better off staying in the air and mixing Fair, Bair, and fastfall grabs whenever possible.

While recovering high, Quick Draw if they're not going for the Cape. You can glide through FLUDD. If you're recovering low, go so low offstage that Ike is literally a pixel away from being consumed by the bottom edge of the stage. Use Aether. That's your lowest point of recovery.

Recovering on stage or from a vertical Smash is also tough because you're dealing with Mario's USmash, which has a HUGE arc from behind him, above him, to just at the tip of his nose. It's fast, hard to punish, and may outprioritize your moves if you can't gain enough distance. If they read a Counter, prepare to get grabbed.

Your best bet is just punishing Mario's recovery. The angle is predictable. You can hit him with Eruption or go low for a walk-off Bair. Just watch out with the latter because then it may be him gimping you with Cape or FLUDD.
 

Arrei

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Cripes, facing Sheik is mentally exhausting. She can fit two aerials into a single jump, and I kept reflexively dropping my shield after seeing her do one, thinking it was safe to put some distance between us. Challenging her in the air is extremely difficult because of her air speed and the range on her Bair, as well - trying to land an Fair when her back is turned isn't a good idea. I started pulling more wins out once I figured out I had to fight my reflexes and shield longer while she was in the air, though, and despite all her combos she really does have issues getting the kill - I survived up to 203% on one stock, and the last game I played involved being at max rage, getting a grab on her at 120%, and finishing her off with a Dthrow. Just have to pay attention to tricky usage of Bouncing Fish and Vanish mixups - letting one of those land at high percent is a sure death.

I'm still not entirely certain when the best times to go in against her are, but a missed Bouncing Fish, fully shielded jab, Fsmash, and dash attack were certainly among the easier moves to punish.
 
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Rango the Mercenary

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If you guys are having trouble with Rosalina, hit her with Side B. Get her to the edge and use that to take out the Luma quickly. That alone solves half of your problems. Also keep in mind she dies at 70% to USmash and her Up B can be beaten with a walk-off Bair.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjichTlIQ8w
 
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Oblivion129

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If you guys are having trouble with Rosalina, hit her with Side B. Get her to the edge and use that to take out the Luma quickly. That alone solves half of your problems. Also keep in mind she dies at 70% to USmash and her Up B can be beaten with a walk-off Bair.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjichTlIQ8w
Nice use of eruption and timing for it. I personally use Bair a lot more in my matches, though. Interesting.
 

Oblivion129

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As a Meta Knight main, the guy played really well, not over-committing, playing safe, punishing, like MK should be played.

You did well on stage but when you had him offstage you tried to gimp, which, against a good MK more often that not, won't work. He punished your offstage attempts several times, so I'd say you should read his ledge options and punish there rather than jumping offstage. Like what he did. He would try to punish your ledge options with a tornado instead of gimping offstage.
 

DarkChronos

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I see now!

QD only leaves Ike helpless when you have no jumps left.

lol, I feel like a whole new player, can't wait to rematch that Luigi guy again
 

Sol0ke

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No.

When you activate the slash of quickdraw, you have a limited window to input an action. You will fall helpless if you don't do anything.
Hope that clears it up.
 

Rango the Mercenary

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As a Meta Knight main, the guy played really well, not over-committing, playing safe, punishing, like MK should be played.

You did well on stage but when you had him offstage you tried to gimp, which, against a good MK more often that not, won't work. He punished your offstage attempts several times, so I'd say you should read his ledge options and punish there rather than jumping offstage. Like what he did. He would try to punish your ledge options with a tornado instead of gimping offstage.
I feel like I had the most problems on-stage. Still looking for more options to work against him. I know this matchup isn't unwinnable and nowhere near as bad as it was in Brawl.
 

Oblivion129

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I feel like I had the most problems on-stage. Still looking for more options to work against him. I know this matchup isn't unwinnable and nowhere near as bad as it was in Brawl.
MK lives off of punishes, and he'll punish almost every attack you miss. Like if you see that first match, pretty much every Nair was punished except one.
In smash 4, MK's tornado doesn't have much priority at all, so any attack will break it. So MK's will Tornado you as a punish or shield pressure where you can't attack. His range has been nerfed so you can challenge him in the air. In the ground he'll be patient and wait for you to attack.
If you've seen Ryo against Sonic, you'll see how he applies pressure without attacking. Dashing around, empty jumps, etc. This is to keep the opponent guessing if he'll grab or use an aerial, without getting punished by missed attacks.

For MK to KO, he'll look for a Down B read, an Fsmash read, or a Dash Attack to Shuttle Loop read, assuming you don't go offstage and give him more KO options. If you keep this in mind, you'll live to around 180% which is where Tornado can KO you.
 

Vue35

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What's a good way to stay on top of Rosalina? I always seemed to get my butt handed to me in these scenarios, that Luma especially zones me out. (I tried to zone out with nair, do I just need to corner her with a smash?)
 

Arrei

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Make sure her Lumas are knocked out as soon as possible. It can't recover out of hitstun, so all you have to do is knock it off the stage. If she tries to launch the Luma at you, that's pretty much a free chance to take it out with a single attack. If not, the Luma will typically get hit by any attacks that Rosalina takes, so look for opportunities to break off from damaging Rosa herself and harass the Luma for a moment instead.

When she's alone, a few things to watch out for are the long reach of her dash attack and that her Dair's disjoint makes chasing her from directly underneath risky, so attack her from an angle instead when she's in the air.
 

Nidtendofreak

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I only got theory crafting for that one, but...

Do not use anything with lag on it. Fair. Bair. Jab, Dtilt. Grab. Nair/Uair situationally. Utilt situationally/when going for a kill. Play very smart, Zero mixes it up a lot. If you do get the banana, pull out DACIT. I doubt anybody has pulled that against him yet. Otherwise, actually use the banana against him don't just toss it away.

Be careful of his Fair, it has surprising range and speed with no real lag on it. Our Fair beats it out as should our Nair, but his is certainly faster. If he does Dthrow -> Uair, DI towards and behind Diddy. If you DI up or away Uair is going to hit even at non-combo percents. Also don't airdodge, that's asking to get Fair'd in that situation.
 

Rango the Mercenary

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Ike vs. Pikachu is detrimental. Even when I try to maintain my spacing, he'll either vortex me (left-right-left-right. Always around me and hard to hit) or chase me down from across the stage for a random dashgrab, Nair, Fair, or USmash. Even if I'm just shorthopping to keep spacing, go for a potential retreating Fair, or jump-in, he'll go all the way across the stage to get me. Pikachu is also very hard to hit because he's safe on every one of his moves and attacks twice for one of your attacks.
 

GhostUrsa

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You definitely have to work a little harder against Pikachu. I find N-air is more effective than F-Air against him due to his speed. The reduced lag will let you keep up more, and if he tried to get through you for a punish it won't be as easy. Quick attack can be a pain, but is punishable when baited as you can shield through it easily and d-tilt him to a combo. (I have a hard time going for the grab due to the distance he's at when done) Don't make the mistake of going for a counter with it, as you'll not hit fast enough and will get bashed with the returned attack. What used to get me was his retreating Thunder (short hop backwards while using Thunder) which works well against a spaced F-air. I find that treating the move like a roll backwards helps, and going for a grab instead of another attack since you'll be out of the way from the Thunder.
 

Rango the Mercenary

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GhostUrsa

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I'll say this first before I give some feedback, that the two of you seemed evenly matched. You had a good number of reads on him that definitely helped with the fights. Also, where these 5 the only fights you had or they only ones recorded? Reason I ask is because your video titles mention 8, 12, 13 and so on so I wasn't sure if you fought the same player 13 times in a row or if you were in a type of tournament or round robin style group setup and these where the only times you could adapt to Fratos. Some of my criticism would seem less important depending on the answer.

Alright, first observation was that you spent quite a bit of time doing short hop n-air and f-air when your opponent was just standing on the other side of the field. This was more prominent in the first 3 videos than the later ones. I noticed that Fratos would start baiting those for Quick attacks later on to start racking up damage. I know that Ike's N-air has extremely low lag, but it's still there. There were quite a few times where having your feet planted on the ground would have given you much more options against him than in the air, where Pikachu can out maneuver you.

A large portion of your approaches where jump attacks, when Fratos would often block and either regain field control or punish you for. More empty short hops and grabs would have helped shake things up and allowed for more opportunities to punish. You started adapted to this in the last 3 videos more, which helped your matches but you still spend a lot more time in the air than I'd recommend against a Pikachu.

I noticed you favor jumping from the ledge quite often, which after 2 matches your opponent started anticipating and punished for. A few more from ledge attacks would have helped out in putting some fear in him when you recovered.

When Pikachu was off stage or ledge hopping, you would almost always go off stage after him, whether above or below you. I'll admit that you are much braver than I am when it comes to such, as when you were able to read his recoveries in to the air you nailed him good. After a couple of matches though he started using that to his advantage. He'd be able to quick attack around or through you often and leave you struggling to get back. Mixing in some Aethers from the ledge when he was approaching from the side or Eruptions from below would have made you harder to predict and returning to the stage much more fearful. I've read from other tournament players (and have dabbled myself) that Ike's Eruption from low is a terrifying thing, especially if you are right up to the ledge. Reason is that the tip of the sword adds more to your hitbox and goes even lower than the actual explosion, which may have allowed you to sneak a hit in between when his quick attack fired toward the ledge and the actual ledge grab happened. I know that if Fratos tried to Quick Attack from higher it's not so reliable, but from below it's much harder to avoid.

After a while, Fratos was catching on to how you were almost always using QD when returning from the stage above it and was starting to anticipate that. Mix in some fast falls (and if needed into Counter or Blocks) would have shaken him up more.

Last thing I can recommend is to slow down a little. Ike's rushdown is decent, but Pikachu's is better. There where quite a few times where walking would have been much more beneficial, since you could have easily have stopped his dash attacks and running grabs with a jab, dtilt or set him up for a juggle. Now I'm not saying you have to completely change your playstyle, but sometimes slowing down can give you much more perspective when against fast opponents. Example, Fratos liked to go from dashing to a short hop n-air quite often, which you could have ducked under and punished since without a shield or body in the way he would have continued sailing over you. (Ike's got one hell of a duck for a heavy! I've even ducked under Pikachu's thunderbolt on occasion.)

I know this looks like a wall of text, but in actuality it's more nitpicking. You did a good job adapting against your opponent from what I could see in the video. All you need is the ability to mix it up a little to throw off your opponent (since he was getting conditioned to your tells) and you would not only have own but decimated. It was a fun set of matches to watch.
 

GhostUrsa

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One thing, I noticed that you have a hard time doing pivot grabs from a standing position. I'm having a similar issue trying to get it down too, so if you or someone else reading know of some exercises I could use to help train myself to not overcommit my left stick when attempting the grab, I'd be most grateful. (hell, maybe I'm doing it all wrong. :crazy:)
 

PyroTakun

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So I've decided that we should probably start focusing on specific MUs instead of just throwing out a bunch of random characters all at once. We'll go ahead and start it off with Sheik, which I find to be one of the harder MUs for Ike.

Also, if you guys want to let me know if there's a specific character you want to go over, I'll change the topic over to that when the current character is done.
 

GhostUrsa

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I'd say that the MU give Ike a slight disadvantage against Sheik. The throwing knives slow down the ground-based approach options, and the exploding line can make Shielding/Countering in front of her difficult. I find at lower percentages, her combos are easier to sneak a counter into for a combo breaker. She has the speed, but most of her moves are multi hits so good DI can break her out of her groove. Aerial QD for closing the distance can negate the knives issue if speed is of the essence, and being on the lighter side means keeping her off stage can be easy. Chasing after her there not so much, but Eruption/Aether can be used to wall her off. Got to be careful of her teleport though, as it can be used as a combo when recovering and seems to get through everything Ike's got but shields and counter.
 

Nidtendofreak

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No experience of any kind in this MU.

Suspect it may be Ike's worst MU. But I just... don't know anything about this MU at all even at a theoretical level. The information I pick up about Sheik keeps seemingly changing. Its a disadvantage of some kind that isn't slight but I don't think its exactly Brawl MK either for us.

Should probably invite Sheik boards over. Tell them to play nice.
 

san.

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Person I had to play against in Grand Finals last few times uses Sheik.

It would be a large disadvantage if Sheik wasn't so easy to combo and kill. Because she's a fast faller, our nair, dtilt, and throws can combo pretty easily for a good 20% each time. We can combat her on the ground with jabs and tilts. Dtilt punishes whiffed attacks and jab works up close. However, her dtilt beats our jab and it's a pain to watch out for ftilt. The key to this MU is not to overextend yourself with your attacks. Bouncing fish is a pain, but it's a free grab for 20+% if we can respond.

Landing is a pain since Sheik can crouch and can burst approach with fair or punish with grabs, but the damage racking and killing is slow.

Overall, I think it may just be a slight to medium disadvantage. If Ike gets the first kill, he can also extend his lead much better than Sheik, while Ike can get a revenge kill with uthrow->uair or nair that kills. Sheik can tear through our spacing, so we have to play more movement oriented and set up with our own attacks than walling with hitboxes.
 

Kimchi

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I'm not even sure if it's worth trying to approach from the air, with the exception of the occasional SH Nair that can be somewhat unexpected. Whiffs by us can allow for easy punishes for her that can lead to enormous damage rack-ups (I estimate about 20-30% at least), thanks to her low knockback attacks and Ike's relatively poor anti-juggling options. Ike's spacing has to be pretty spot-on and that's not always the easiest thing against faster characters like Sheik.

I'd say, at least from my limited experience against Sheiks on WiFi and tournament matches, ground approaches seem to work best here, even if her needles limit us. Fast movements are definitely key here and the few opportunities that we get a set-up going, we should take full advantage and try to rack up % as much as possible.

Eruption is a free kill almost every time with good timing so it's not a bad idea to use it to edgeguard as much as possible.
 

Arrei

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 25, 2014
Messages
1,303
From my experience, approaching from the air with Fair is a terrible idea against Sheik - her Bair is fast and reaches far, and she herself is very quick in the air so she'll kick you right in the face more often than not. Approaching with Bair could fare better if you can do that. Nair is also risky, but the hitbox makes it easier to work with.

Trying to stay on the ground definitely works more in our favor against her.
 
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NeoArcadiaX_SM

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 7, 2014
Messages
25
Location
Santa Clarita, CA
NNID
SuperMario248
3DS FC
0000-0000-0000
If anyone can go on YT and search "ZeRo vs SM" I would appreciate it (I can't provide links yet)
Here's a video of what NOT to do against Diddy. XD

I felt like from this day that my movement with Ike has significantly gotten better (in general) and becoming aware of many options that Ike can do against Diddy. I just completely felt like I couldn't do much with Ike AT THIS MOMENT and went Mario the second match. So to stay focus on the first match I am aware of many of the mistakes I was making but any feedback from ANYONE will be appreciated.
 
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