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Data Prepare Yourself (Ike Match-up thread)

Baggy

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Any advice against floaties? I struggle really bad against Jiggs, Kirby, and peach. Their aerial speed can be overwhelming to me. I try to predict when they come in and hit them with an fair, but they just dip in and dip out and it's hard for me to get a read on their movement.

Also their multi-hit dairs. How do you guys deal with them (and multihit dairs in general ie: yoshi, mario bros)?
 
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Arrei

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Jigglypuff's strength is her very weakness in that matchup. She normally wins trades just by having her hitboxes stay out for so long so that enemies run into them, but Ike's sword is the perfect tool to swat her away when she stuck committing to an attack like Pound. Same goes for Kirby's aerials to some extent. Play like they do and be patient - weave in and out instead of charging in, their low weight and floatiness means our usual close-quarters combo game won't do us as much good as simple good spacing.
 
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Banjobeast158

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Kirbys like to come from above, you can bait a Dair or Nair from him and punish. Additionally you can counter his up b when he runs out of jumps to recover for a kill at around 100. His Nair is annoying as it can lead into down tilt and grab; his Fsmash also has great range. He can bait an attack because of his multiple jumps so try not to commit to too much if he is in the airand you are grounded(same goes for jiggs). it can be a tedious fight where you will want to play defensive but it is definitely winnable.(he dies so easily from a Usmash if he whiffs an aerial approach). Your main kill move in this match-up is probably Fair near the edge or Ftilt; if you can punish go for a Utilt. Try not to use a smash attack other than Usmash in this fight because Kirby is hard to bait and punish.
 

san.

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When spacing against them, you should try to hit their attacks when they're in the air than hit them. That's their only approach so they're going to try to attack sometimes. Kirby's dair has a lot of startup and can be challenged directly, even though it has very little lag on landing.
 
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Banjobeast158

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can anyone help on getting in on mega man? it feels like all he does is throw out a wall i cannot pass.
 

Kirby Dragons

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can anyone help on getting in on mega man? it feels like all he does is throw out a wall i cannot pass.
Ike's specials give him enough mobility for an approach. Quick Draw sends him forward too fast for Mega Man to attack, while Aether can help him travel right over the wall of projectiles. Simple spot/air dodges also work. If the projectile moves slowly enough, Counter can even negate it.
 

Baggy

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Ike's specials give him enough mobility for an approach. Quick Draw sends him forward too fast for Mega Man to attack, while Aether can help him travel right over the wall of projectiles. Simple spot/air dodges also work. If the projectile moves slowly enough, Counter can even negate it.
I disagree. What good megamen love to do is use his jab/lemons constantly. That fact in addition to his bomb and saw shut down Quick Draw on the ground. There's only so much you can rely on Auto-canceled aerial Quick Draw as the vulnerability in the air and the predictability (long start up) of the move limit it in the match up. Aether is by no means a mobility tool for neutral. Counter is more practical to use on his attacks - the moments where he comes in on you - rather than his projectiles because if the counter whiffs, which it will if you're hit at max range, you're open (puns for my friends). If he is for some reason approaching, however, it could work if you're smart about it.

@ Banjobeast158 Banjobeast158 I say the best way to handle it is to practice shielding and perfect shield approaching. Perfect shield and approach after he shoots the third pellet. His bomb and saw are punishable if you're in fair/nair range. Keep in mind that for one, those two moves have a bit of start-up, saw can be caught and/or negated by ragnell. Bombs don't make you flinch when it sticks to you, so it's an opportunity to punish if you must run through it, but try to spot when he does it so you can short hop punish.

It takes a lot of patience and the match may be drawn out because of it and there's no helping that since Ike is only so fast. So you must up your defense and stop yourself from impatiently running into projectiles. Consequently, upping your shield game means you'll be susceptible to grabs if the megaman is smart. So work on your dodge game as well. Defense is the best offense in match ups that keep Ike out/outrun him.

Here's my attempt in fighting a good megaman. Another thing to note is to capitalize his offstage recovery.
Oh, and don't recover low... ever...

Question for you Mr. @ san. san. -san: Somewhere here I've heard "safely spaced nair". What distance and what part of nair makes it most safe?
 
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Banjobeast158

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I disagree. What good megamen love to do is use his jab/lemons constantly. That fact in addition to his bomb and saw shut down Quick Draw on the ground. There's only so much you can rely on Auto-canceled aerial Quick Draw as the vulnerability in the air and the predictability (long start up) of the move limit it in the match up. Aether is by no means a mobility tool for neutral. Counter is more practical to use on his attacks - the moments where he comes in on you - rather than his projectiles because if the counter whiffs, which it will if you're hit at max range, you're open (puns for my friends). If he is for some reason approaching, however, it could work if you're smart about it.

@ Banjobeast158 Banjobeast158 I say the best way to handle it is to practice shielding and perfect shield approaching. Perfect shield and approach after he shoots the third pellet. His bomb and saw are punishable if you're in fair/nair range. Keep in mind that for one, those two moves have a bit of start-up, saw can be caught and/or negated by ragnell. Bombs don't make you flinch when it sticks to you, so it's an opportunity to punish if you must run through it, but try to spot when he does it so you can short hop punish.

It takes a lot of patience and the match may be drawn out because of it and there's no helping that since Ike is only so fast. So you must up your defense and stop yourself from impatiently running into projectiles. Consequently, upping your shield game means you'll be susceptible to grabs if the megaman is smart. So work on your dodge game as well. Defense is the best offense in match ups that keep Ike out/outrun him.

Here's my attempt in fighting a good megaman. Another thing to note is to capitalize his offstage recovery.
Oh, and don't recover low... ever...

Question for you Mr. @ san. san. -san: Somewhere here I've heard "safely spaced nair". What distance and what part of nair makes it most safe?
Nice spike in the end; was that an online match or local? I have no problem perfect shielding local but online i tend to hold the shield too long..
 

Baggy

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Nice spike in the end; was that an online match or local? I have no problem perfect shielding local but online i tend to hold the shield too long..
Online. I play online 99% of the time so I'm used to it.

Even so though, it's not like i perfect shielded everything. Just blocked projectiles and negated and/or dodged them when I could.
 
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Rango the Mercenary

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Good God, Dedede is a nightmare. I feel his Fairs/Bairs completely match ours in range, but his just come out faster. His grab range is ridiculous to the point of grabbing me through a DTilt, and the Gordos are very hard to punish. Even when I see the frame where it looks like he's punishable, he goes right into shield and grabs me right after.

Gimping him is nearly impossible unless he falls strictly after tossing a Gordo. Going for a walk-off Fair runs the risk of a Gordo stage spike, though. He's not worried about Eruption because he can snap the ledge within the halfway point of his Up B, so he doesn't have to go deep for it.

Dedede seems to recover off of his attacks much faster than it appears. He's much safer than most would anticipate and loves to abuse Fair/Bair, airhop, Fair/Bair repeatedly for a bait mindgame that's very hard to punish. Simply trying to jab/grab him off of you also doesn't always work as he's already ready with a shield or an FTilt to throw you off or outprioritize you.
 
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Banjobeast158

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Online. I play online 99% of the time so I'm used to it.

Even so though, it's not like i perfect shielded everything. Just blocked projectiles and negated and/or dodged them when I could.
Me too, im probably going to start doing tourneys at my college but i was hoping to get the shielding stuff on mega man down. i kept falling for his reverse razor blades. Thanks for the tips though!
 

Nidtendofreak

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Rango, why do you constantly keep thinking a new MU is terrible for Ike when you keep picking ones we have the advantage in?
 

PyroTakun

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Good God, Dedede is a nightmare. I feel his Fairs/Bairs completely match ours in range, but his just come out faster. His grab range is ridiculous to the point of grabbing me through a DTilt, and the Gordos are very hard to punish. Even when I see the frame where it looks like he's punishable, he goes right into shield and grabs me right after.

Gimping him is nearly impossible unless he falls strictly after tossing a Gordo. Going for a walk-off Fair runs the risk of a Gordo stage spike, though. He's not worried about Eruption because he can snap the ledge within the halfway point of his Up B, so he doesn't have to go deep for it.

Dedede seems to recover off of his attacks much faster than it appears. He's much safer than most would anticipate and loves to abuse Fair/Bair, airhop, Fair/Bair repeatedly for a bait mindgame that's very hard to punish. Simply trying to jab/grab him off of you also doesn't always work as he's already ready with a shield or an FTilt to throw you off or outprioritize you.
You can catch his Up-B with U-Air. I highly doubt his B-Air comes out faster, but it does have really good range.

Are you playing this match online or offline?
 

Hanku Hirru

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Good God, Dedede is a nightmare. I feel his Fairs/Bairs completely match ours in range, but his just come out faster. His grab range is ridiculous to the point of grabbing me through a DTilt, and the Gordos are very hard to punish. Even when I see the frame where it looks like he's punishable, he goes right into shield and grabs me right after.

Gimping him is nearly impossible unless he falls strictly after tossing a Gordo. Going for a walk-off Fair runs the risk of a Gordo stage spike, though. He's not worried about Eruption because he can snap the ledge within the halfway point of his Up B, so he doesn't have to go deep for it.

Dedede seems to recover off of his attacks much faster than it appears. He's much safer than most would anticipate and loves to abuse Fair/Bair, airhop, Fair/Bair repeatedly for a bait mindgame that's very hard to punish. Simply trying to jab/grab him off of you also doesn't always work as he's already ready with a shield or an FTilt to throw you off or outprioritize you.
Boy, I tell you h'what -- in my experience, I find Dedede to be one of Ike's easiest match ups.

He's hard to gimp and quite frankly, it's pretty risky to attempt it considering the bevy of tools he can use to counter an offstage approach (i.e Inhale, gordo). Better bring the propain.
 
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PyroTakun

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Online. I made a topic about it because I'm starting to question a few things.
Online is a whole different beast my friend.

Overall DDD's frame data is really weak. As long as you can get in close enough to jab, you'll beat any attack he can throw out. Try staying more grounded in this MU.
 
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How do you gusy fight Ryu?

His Shoryuken is ridiculous. It's like he can insert it anywhere.

I've learned to kind of bait it out and punish. The Ryu in my scene likes to use aerial Focus Attack for movement and set-ups, so I've learned to sort-of read it and grab. The usual hard read into charged smash doesn't work here because FA gives him super armor then you get stunned with the hit, which usually ends with jabs into Shoryuken. Also, if you can time it right, a dash attack will cut through a Hadoken just as it comes out and will hit Ryu. And it seems that his Tatsumaki needs to be shielded only once, then you can run behind and punish.

When Ryu is recovering deep off stage with his Shoryuken, I feel like it should be possible to run off and Bair him before he snaps. And theoretically, you should be able to Aether in time to recover. I haven't confirmed this yet, though.

Can you smash Ryu safely out of FA range?

I feel like this MU is more about careful patience and poking until you see a hard opening and taking advantage. Because that Shoryuken IS coming and will kick your ass. Oh, and if he catches you at low % with his jabs, it seems like you just have to eat it until he finishes with Shoryuken. I haven't been able to DI out of it successfully so far. :( It really sucks. Hopefully I'm wrong.

EDIT: Accidentally a word.
 
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PyroTakun

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I haven't had any real problems with the Ryu MU. I think he's fairly easy to wall out/ space even with Hadokens cus they're pretty slow. His size and weight are great for our grab game and his recovery is pretty predictable off-stage and doesn't ledge-snap too often.

But if he gets in, you're kinda ****ed.
 

MasterExocuter

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Good God, Dedede is a nightmare. I feel his Fairs/Bairs completely match ours in range, but his just come out faster. His grab range is ridiculous to the point of grabbing me through a DTilt, and the Gordos are very hard to punish. Even when I see the frame where it looks like he's punishable, he goes right into shield and grabs me right after.

Gimping him is nearly impossible unless he falls strictly after tossing a Gordo. Going for a walk-off Fair runs the risk of a Gordo stage spike, though. He's not worried about Eruption because he can snap the ledge within the halfway point of his Up B, so he doesn't have to go deep for it.

Dedede seems to recover off of his attacks much faster than it appears. He's much safer than most would anticipate and loves to abuse Fair/Bair, airhop, Fair/Bair repeatedly for a bait mindgame that's very hard to punish. Simply trying to jab/grab him off of you also doesn't always work as he's already ready with a shield or an FTilt to throw you off or outprioritize you.
For me, knowing when and when not to approach DDD is key. Ike's ftilt is pretty fast and has range, making it a good move to reflect gordos. You can punish DDD with his own gordos and then rush in for a couple of Nair/fairs. Otherwise, DDD will just shield you out and grab you and get a bunch of dumb damage off on you
 

Rango the Mercenary

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For me, knowing when and when not to approach DDD is key. Ike's ftilt is pretty fast and has range, making it a good move to reflect gordos. You can punish DDD with his own gordos and then rush in for a couple of Nair/fairs. Otherwise, DDD will just shield you out and grab you and get a bunch of dumb damage off on you
Turns out it was Wi-Fi crap.
 

Arrei

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Even if it was the effect of wifi, I don't think you should have been feeling so overwhelmed by Dededoo unless you were suffering significant input lag.
 

MasterExocuter

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Yeh Wifi can screw Ike over. I It makes characters with less startup able to just throw out more moves. It also messes up Ike's recovery a bunch
 

GhostUrsa

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Wifi doesn't really help Ike, no. Only way I can get consistent practice, unfortunately. We have a much larger Melee scene in Minnesota's Twin Cities area than Smash 4, so local tournaments are harder to find. If my opponents internet is good, I don't have any issues (other than what I bring) but a slight delay makes it difficult to keep my turnaround tilts and jabs on point. (Plus properly power shielding, or punishing with grabs) I haven't had issue with my recoveries with it yet, though.

@ Ryusei the Falling Star Ryusei the Falling Star I find Ryu can be difficult when he gets in. Good defense when he's on stage is a must, since being able to mix-up is his main fighting style. Once he's off-stage, he suffers the same issues against Ike as most of the cast. I've used Counter against 'Dragon Punch' and 'Hurricane Kick' to gimp, and unless he can time a Hadoken properly, Eruption can be used against him as well. Focus Attacks are our one big vice with him in my experience, as most of our attacks have a single hitbox and our speed isn't fast enough to get another attack out before we get the wind knocked out of us.

Slightly different topic, I fought a good Pac-man earlier today that gave me some good trouble. He made great use of the space FD gave him to properly charge up different projectiles, try to wall out my approach with aerials and set up movement traps with a combination of quick aerials and the Hydrant. (He'd drop one from above and then see what you'd do by charging a projectile. If you attempt to remove the hydrant, he'll punish you. If you attack him, he'd dodge around and smash the hydrant to cover both close range and close proximity aerial attacks. If you did nothing, he'd charge to Key and make the 2nd option's ending worse.)

It wasn't too hard to return to neutral, but trying to get the KO was difficult. It required a lot of patience and giving him way too much space than he should have. Off stage became problematic since he'd use his side-B to retreat high, charge a ranged attack and then make a couple different attempts for the ledge with counters to most of Ike's go to moves. Eruption would get fruit in the face, counter would often get a misfire, and he'd dodge around an off-stage attack to either counter attack with side-b or use trampoline with said projectile to cover his return trip.

It was pretty grueling to fight, though I won about as many fights as I lost in the end. What are some advice those of you fighting good Pac-man can give out? I'd say keeping our feet on the ground is a must, as a good Pac-man will bait out aerial attacks and use hydrant with items to wall us out. Our feet on the ground makes it easier to shield anything he throws at us, which allows us to punish his landing. (assuming we are in range) As for arenas, I'd go with something that has platforms to help break up what setups he can do with his hydrant.
 
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Locke17

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I'm having trouble with Little Mac of all skill levels. I try to play it slow and space him with aerials, but with lag and Mac's armor and frame data he has any easy time stuffing my attacks.
 

san.

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Wifi doesn't really help Ike, no. Only way I can get consistent practice, unfortunately. We have a much larger Melee scene in Minnesota's Twin Cities area than Smash 4, so local tournaments are harder to find. If my opponents internet is good, I don't have any issues (other than what I bring) but a slight delay makes it difficult to keep my turnaround tilts and jabs on point. (Plus properly power shielding, or punishing with grabs) I haven't had issue with my recoveries with it yet, though.

@ Ryusei the Falling Star Ryusei the Falling Star I find Ryu can be difficult when he gets in. Good defense when he's on stage is a must, since being able to mix-up is his main fighting style. Once he's off-stage, he suffers the same issues against Ike as most of the cast. I've used Counter against 'Dragon Punch' and 'Hurricane Kick' to gimp, and unless he can time a Hadoken properly, Eruption can be used against him as well. Focus Attacks are our one big vice with him in my experience, as most of our attacks have a single hitbox and our speed isn't fast enough to get another attack out before we get the wind knocked out of us.

Slightly different topic, I fought a good Pac-man earlier today that gave me some good trouble. He made great use of the space FD gave him to properly charge up different projectiles, try to wall out my approach with aerials and set up movement traps with a combination of quick aerials and the Hydrant. (He'd drop one from above and then see what you'd do by charging a projectile. If you attempt to remove the hydrant, he'll punish you. If you attack him, he'd dodge around and smash the hydrant to cover both close range and close proximity aerial attacks. If you did nothing, he'd charge to Key and make the 2nd option's ending worse.)

It wasn't too hard to return to neutral, but trying to get the KO was difficult. It required a lot of patience and giving him way too much space than he should have. Off stage became problematic since he'd use his side-B to retreat high, charge a ranged attack and then make a couple different attempts for the ledge with counters to most of Ike's go to moves. Eruption would get fruit in the face, counter would often get a misfire, and he'd dodge around an off-stage attack to either counter attack with side-b or use trampoline with said projectile to cover his return trip.

It was pretty grueling to fight, though I won about as many fights as I lost in the end. What are some advice those of you fighting good Pac-man can give out? I'd say keeping our feet on the ground is a must, as a good Pac-man will bait out aerial attacks and use hydrant with items to wall us out. Our feet on the ground makes it easier to shield anything he throws at us, which allows us to punish his landing. (assuming we are in range) As for arenas, I'd go with something that has platforms to help break up what setups he can do with his hydrant.
Ike has an easier time hitting the hydrant than pacman. Bair/dash attack work wonders and most of his other moves will launch it with even a bit of damage, and pacman shouldn't immediately be able to punish you if the hydrant is heading his way.

It's not that bad to go on the offensive while Pac man is charging fruit offstage. There's a bit of a delay before he can dodge, so it's actually pretty unsafe when Ike's fair can kill him. If he uses his upB or side B in the wrong spots then he's punishable. Pac man has a rough time killing Ike unless Pac Man mains developed his item kill setups.
 

Cereal Bawks

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Hey guys. I was fighting my friend who mains ZSS, and I kept getting rekt. I didn't know what to do against her zairs. I tried perfect shielding, but every time I did that, I would get grabbed. Her paralyzer was also really hard to get around.

Any tips?
 

xXIke-SamaXx

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Hey guys. I was fighting my friend who mains ZSS, and I kept getting rekt. I didn't know what to do against her zairs. I tried perfect shielding, but every time I did that, I would get grabbed. Her paralyzer was also really hard to get around.

Any tips?
Well if I were you I would bait ZSS into a grabbing position > Dash Attack/grab combo...that's the best strategy I have.
 

Rango the Mercenary

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I'm having trouble with Little Mac of all skill levels. I try to play it slow and space him with aerials, but with lag and Mac's armor and frame data he has any easy time stuffing my attacks.
Lag is definitely harmful. Playing him straight up, block when you can and jab when you can. The sooner you get him off the ledge, the better. Finish with reading airdodge and Fair him offstage for a kill.

In the neutral, if you Bair, NEVER screw up an autocancel or he will make you punish it. Little Mac seemingly outranges you sometimes, so you need to play as far away from him as possible. If he gets in, reply with jabs or DTilt immediately.
 

1337Kai

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Of all the top tiers in the game, Ike's best matchup is against Luigi. Because Ike has good knock back on shields and Luigi slides far when his shield is hit, Ike can seriously cripple Luigi's approach game (especially if they try shield grabbing). Maybe I'm biased because I have a lot of experience with the match up, but when I go to tournaments, I usually don't worry about Luigi players. Now of all the top tiers, Ike's WORST matchup has to be either Rosalina or Mario. Both are pretty self explanatory. Rosalina can stop Ike's approach and he gets combo'ed easily by Mario. This is all based on my experiences in tournaments and challenging my friends.
 
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Rango the Mercenary

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Why aren't we using Counter to stop Little Mac's Side B more often? Just looking for options since I have to fight LazyBoredom at TFC on Saturday if I make it out of my pool. Also random note, Little Mac can DTilt/UTilt into Up B Ike for a true combo kill at 111% in Final Destination (so 5-10% more on Battlefield). Tested it in the lab.

Watching MVG Sol's compilation video. Arguably the very best Little Mac player around.


3:45 is a good reason not to take him to Smashville.
 
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san.

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How does Ike beat Rosalina, what are his best tools against her, I don't play her very often so I don't know the matchup that well?
I'm not convinced Ike beats Rosalina, but he has many things that greatly annoy her. Ike has no problems killing luma or knocking him offstage without harming himself. If the Ike plans it right, he can keep Luma out of the picture for a very long time if he tries.

Ike still has trouble vs. Rosalina's juggle game regardless.
 

Arrei

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I'm still of the mind it's even at best, 60-40 disadvantage at worst. Yes, Rosie is light and Ike's reach allows him to take down Luma much easier than other characters, especially with his jab and dash attack, but Rosalina's strong points, juggling and gimping, are also Ike's greatest weaknesses, while our own strengths are dampened in the face of her aerials. It's a scramble to recover any time Ike gets sent offstage and Rosalina's aerials can carry him off easily to set up an edgeguard situation.
 
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Baggy

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I may post videos, but I recently struggled hard on FG against Sonic, ZZS, Luigi, and sometimes Roy.

Sonic when in the right hands really puts a beating on Ike. If they dont spam spin dash, roll and dodge alot, and just hop around you, its extremely difficult to hit him. Also, it's hard to defend yourself because EVERYTHING can be punished by sonic both on block and on whiff.

ZZS, I struggle with dodging her meaty, speedy grab, I get juggled very easily by her, and its hard to punish her moves while trying to jump over/block lazers and staying out of range for her dash grab.

Luigi, I've seldom fought a good one until recently, and the sheer speed of his moves is overwhelming. Especially his grab. Getting from the air to the ground is incredibly difficult and Ike becomes combo food for him if anything whiffs.

Roy sometimes gives me problems because of the speed of his moves covering his front. His fair and jab in particular tend to hit me out of fair and nair quite a bit.
 

Nidtendofreak

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 10, 2006
Messages
7,265
Location
Belleville, Ontario
NNID
TheNiddo
3DS FC
3668-7651-8940
I've seen people on both sides of the Rosalina MU say that Ike has a small edge in it. Its basically the fact that Ike kills Luma borderline for free and has the advantage against Rosalina herself. Its not a big advantage because Rosalina juggles us hard, and well spaced Luma can be difficult to get a hit on. Its a very volatile, difficult MU where as long as Ike plays perfectly we have the advantage. We have a bit more wiggle room than Rosalina does.
 

Rango the Mercenary

The Mercenary
Joined
May 22, 2007
Messages
1,536
Location
Georgia
3DS FC
2320-6400-7280
You can shield and jab an aggressive Rosalina. It can take the Luma out and knock her away to off-stage, where she is most vulnerable.
 
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