Data Prepare Yourself (Ike Match-up thread)

[Macedonian]

Tink is a pain, the on stage down air decks our upB.
And he can boomerang arrow or bomb to hit us out of side B.

Plus he's small floaty and hard to catch. Not saying we're disadvantaged but Tink is giving me a hard time lately

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Tlink and MegaMan are both even. Just got to get really good at knowing when to shield, when to bat away projectiles, and when to avoid.

 

[Macedonian]

Tlink and MegaMan are both even. Just got to get really good at knowing when to shield, when to bat away projectiles, and when to avoid.

You don't have any trouble recovering vs Tink?

 

[Hanku Hirru]

I think Tink is pretty easy and if he's spam happy, he sets himself up to eat a well placed SH Nair. You could also step out of his range and force him to approach you or F-tilt any projectile away.

 

[EleH]

Hey Ike boards, can you guys get me up to date MU discussion wise?

 

[Wald0]

Question...I need help with the Ike MU can someone give me a rundown on what works against him? And what doesn't? The MU is not heavily completely known since good Ikes are hard to find. I'll be using this info against Ryo if you wanted to know

 

[Crelrn]

Question...I need help with the Ike MU can someone give me a rundown on what works against him? And what doesn't? The MU is not heavily completely known since good Ikes are hard to find. I'll be using this info against Ryo if you wanted to know

As Samus? Camp him out. Up-B out of shield is a good option. Don't really know much about Samus so I can't help out too much

 

[EleH]

Question...I need help with the Ike MU can someone give me a rundown on what works against him? And what doesn't? The MU is not heavily completely known since good Ikes are hard to find. I'll be using this info against Ryo if you wanted to know

really struggles with landings... I bet if you can catch him fast falling down with an aerial, you can grab him again. It's not viable every time, but it's worth a shot if you manage to power shield, say, a down air or forward air. Up air also works really well against Ike because of his height. Screw Atttack out of shield should work pretty well when Ike approaches with nair too... Other than that, I'm not sure what works best against Ike besides just playing it safe.

I can tell you what not to do though. Don't run in thinking you can best Ike in boxing, Ike thrives off of getting in and getting a grab or a jab. You'd be better off camping him out and spacing him with nair. Speaking of spacing, respect Ike's range. It may not look like it, but fair will tackle on about 24% if you get hit twice with it.

Also, a good Ike will try to space with back air; and lemme tell ya, that's something you really wanna watch. Especially if he tries to fake you out with a back flip instead. If you can predict the timing though, you can get a free dash attack into whatever follow up you see fit.

 

[PyroTakun]

Question...I need help with the Ike MU can someone give me a rundown on what works against him? And what doesn't? The MU is not heavily completely known since good Ikes are hard to find. I'll be using this info against Ryo if you wanted to know

Believe it or not, Snow from Xanadu has a NASTY Samus I've played in friendlies.

He threw out projectiles when I was far away and when I'd try to get in, he always timed/ spaced Up-tilts or aerials of his own. Grabs and jabs messed up my ground approaches. Add in fully-charged B to punish rolls and recoveries and it was easy street for him.

Things to keep in mind in this MU:

- Ike HAS to approach Samus; punish him for it and definitely don't go getting blood-thirsty and approach him
- Ike has a hard time landing; easy to juggle with up-airs
- Ike's recoveries are easily gimped by Samus; just keep a fully-charged B shot for those situations and work on the timing

 

[the_muffin]

So, I know it's a bit early, but anyone have tips for Cloud? I played a against a few of them last night in FG and struggled quite a bit. Hes both faster and has better range than Ike. I play most matchups trying to keep people out and now I'm realizing I have to get in (relatively) close to deal with him.

 

[Arrei]

Well, it looks a lot like Cloud shares one of Ike's weaknesses in that he has few answers against juggles, and his Nair and Fair start above him like Ike's so he should be combo bait as well. Apart from that, I feel like the matchup will make heavy use of grabs. Cloud's grab game is looking pretty mediocre so far, and his attacks are at least punishable on block, but you have to definitely stay on your toes when he's in Limit Break - Down B is quite short-ranged and is kind of on the easier side to challenge, but a Limit Broken Side B is no joke, and deals somewhat substantial shield damage.

Kind of feels like Ike is better off being aggressive outside of Limit Break, and making heavy but smart use of defense during LB to prevent getting his shield worn down and shattered.

And Climhazzard is basically Air Slash without the second hit, lack of ledge snap and all, so it's Eruption time, baby. Even if you muck it up all he gets out of thwarting you is is a measly 4% hit, and using the spike offstage is suicide so there'll be no ledge dunk shenanigans from this man.

 

[FinalForm7]

Cloud is still a grueling match up for Ike in the neutral. He has just as much range as we do and he has a lethal weapon vs Ike. Dtilt. Ike is prone to juggles and Cloud can easily pop us in the air easier due to the sliding nature of it. Not to mention his Uair is brutal and makes it hard to get back to the ground if your opponent is good at reading your airdodges.

Don't even get me started with blade beam and limit charge. Both of those essentially forces Ike to approach which is something I do not like doing with Ike vs Cloud. The good thing is if we can get him with one aerial offstage, he's done for.

 

[the king of murder]

Fought against a couple of Clouds.

Lmao, first impression of Ike vs Cloud MU but he really isn't as scary as I thought he would be. His shockwaves can be easily powershielded and his options for breaking free from juggles...are almost as bad as Bowsers. Just space your aerials correctly or wait in shield for him to land. Recovery is...dear lord worse than Ganon's without limit. He can walljump I guess but that doesn't matter for Ike, he just eruptions him anyway or counters his up-b for a free edgeguard stock.

He is somewhat scary with limit break and some neat low% combos though. Thing is, he needs it to be scary. His damage per hit is also really good.

This is just first impression, Cloud is obvisouly not developed enough.

 

[Radiant Hero]

Cloud seems scary at first glance; range, speed, power etc., but the MU doesn't seem to be as hopeless as some are thinking it will be. I didn't play much; I did a ton of matches with a friend playing as Cloud though, and I noticed a few things.

- His grab game isn't anything to be afraid of. He doesn't get any combos off of them it seems, and the things I did fall into out of a throw felt like I could have avoided, and even if they weren't, they weren't scary.

- He's really weak to shield too, and while we may not be able to heavily punish with tilts and such, we can always get at least a jab or dash grab on him.

- Surprisingly, he has trouble killing, especially because we're heavy. His speed with things like Uair, Nair, Utilt, and Dtilt can build damage on us, but unless you walk into a Fsmash or Finishing Touch, he's not killing us early. I recall taking a Fair to the face (not a sweet spotted one though) at around 150%~ and living. Even his bair is a bit lacking in kill power, compared to our's.

- Another move I was initially very scared of was his Dsmash. It's very quick, and even if the first hitbox's range isn't all that amazing, it can kill pretty well. But as I'm sure we all know by now, that first hit is techable, and we can probably jab to punish him after it. As long as you can do that reliably, that move isn't gonna be that fearsome.

- We can edge guard him so easily when he's without Limit Break. A poorly spaced Climhazzard is easy counter bait (and will usually be enough to stop him from coming back a second time), and if it is perfectly spaced, it's easy to catch with eruption. Granted, it's not like we can switch between Eruption and Counter so easily when they're that close to the stage, but pay attention to how they usually recover and pick the best option.

- His overall speed is better than our's, but we do have a few options that beat his. Our Fair is quicker and more reliable, and our Bair is (I believe) faster too, if only by a few frames. And while our Nair and Uair are slower than his, I feel they do a better job; Nair lets us get into combos and Uair kills quicker than his. Our dash attack is safer and better at killing too, if spaced right, and our having a counter becomes more useful this MU too I think, even if you just need to get out of something without killing him. And if all else fails, we do have a kill throw, something he seemingly lacks.

Of course, this is all day 1 impressions, and I am by no means a great Ike player, and my friend is by no means an amazing Cloud player either. Cloud does have some good tools against us; Blade Beam to force approaches, and quick damage builders like Uair, Nair, and Utilt. Also be wary of LB Blade Beam, since it can catch us if we try to use Aether to recover, but as long as we're well spaced with our approaches and exploit his weakness in shields and especially recovery, this won't be a disaster for us at all... or so I'd like to think.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Be cautious when trying to recovery with aether against him when he has Limit Break: Fairly sure his Finishing Touch can easily tag us during our Aether animation and well, it can kill Bowser at 65%. We're going to be a bit worse off than that.

I'm highly doubtful its a bad MU for us though as it currently stands.

 

[Radiant Hero]

Be cautious when trying to recovery with aether against him when he has Limit Break: Fairly sure his Finishing Touch can easily tag us during our Aether animation and well, it can kill Bowser at 65%. We're going to be a bit worse off than that.

I'm highly doubtful its a bad MU for us though as it currently stands.

According to the Cloud boards, Bowser will die at 65%, while Ike will die at 64%... so I guess we really are just a bit worse off

It seems that fall speed has a lot to do with it. Characters like Roy die at 69% and 68% respectively, and they're both much lighter than Bowser. Still it's only by a measly few percentage points though.

 

[Jterr]

I was trying the Ike/Cloud MU a little bit yesterday.

Be cautious when trying to recovery with aether against him when he has Limit Break: Fairly sure his Finishing Touch can easily tag us during our Aether animation and well, it can kill Bowser at 65%. We're going to be a bit worse off than that.

I'm highly doubtful its a bad MU for us though as it currently stands.

I was facing a Cloud with Ike and I was trying to Aether recovery, but since Ike sticks his head out a little bit Cloud just used Blade Beam and caught my recovery a few times. So yeah, we have to be cautious.

 

[san.]

Cloud is pretty much a better Roy in terms of how we see the MU. I'm going to predict that we slightly lose overall (maybe slightly worse depending on how the meta progresses imo), but we are more than capable of outpowering him where it counts. Cloud can't haphazardly use his range like spaced dairs, nairs, bairs, etc. so easily. Neither can we, but it's a pretty solid battle of his godly uair and limit vs our fair/bair.

 

[Kora]

Hello, I'm looking for some tips to help with the pikachu vs Ike matchup. I play with a pika main quite a bit, and Ike's bad OoS options are making it hard for me to create space between me and him so I can make use of Ike's disjoints to the fullest, its kinda annoying really :l

 

[LordShade67]

With the changes characters like Shulk, Bowser, and (especially) Mewtwo received, I think it's a good time to rediscuss these MUs.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Shulk I don't really see being changed. Same principles apply. Slightly increased damage and frame data isn't enough to move it out of a fairly even MU.

Bowser is probably even provided he could reliably grab Ike past his disjoints. Can't tell until played out.

Mewtwo is undoubtably stronger if you screw up, but its still uh lightweight + tall frame vs heavy hitting massive disjoints. I'd say probably the same ratio, just with a * beside it kinda like Ganondorf.

 

[Jterr]

Shulk in Speed Monado and his buffs are even scarier now. So be cautious.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Alright, I know it's far too early but is Cloud really a threat to Ike?

 

[PyroTakun]

I think it's a bit early for us to really try to analyze the Cloud MU, but I'd definitely like to go over the characters Nidtendofreak mentioned.
: The U-Throw changes work wonders for Bowser, especially since Ike is a heavy-weight.
: I haven't personally played any Mewtwo's after the update, but just looking at the patch note changes is enough to justify visiting this MU
: It feels like Shulk always seems to get tiny buffs, but they might add up to something now. He's the only sword character that out-ranges Ike so that's definitely something to keep in mind.

Let me know what advice you guys have for these MUs

 

[Aninymouse]

I haven't had enough Ike vs. Mewtwo battles to really give meaningful input yet, but I do use both of these characters the most out of the roster.

My initial gut reaction is that Mewtwo can now play footsies with Ike due to the massively buffed walk/run speed and lightning-quick Dtilt. If Mewtwo can land a Dtilt, he can easily take Ike from 0-57% at least. That's about halfway to kill % off one combo. Never forget that, depending on the stage, Mewto's Uthrow is a kill confirm at some point past 100%. I don't know the exact %s, sorry. Ike is heavy, so that increases the usual kill % I'm used to worrying about.

Meanwhile, Ike can kill Mewtwo super early, especially off up throw combos and reads, or Bair near the ledge, Eruption 2-frame reads, randy Usmashes, etc. Ike can end Mewtwo rather quickly, and nearly all of Ike's best options are out of Dthrow or Uthrow, so Mewtwo players have to be on-point in neutral, watch their spacing, mix things up, and NOT linger in shield.

In the air, Ike can out-range Mewto most of the time, but Mewtwo's Nair has an incredibly long-lasting hitbox(es) than can easily punish air dodges and lead to huge combos. Mewtwo has a long reach in the air as well, with Fair, Bair, and Uair all reaching out a good bit, and comboing into each other, depending on %.

Shadow Ball can lead to a lot of cheese vs. Aether (in other words, free %), so Ike mains need to be on-point about mixing up recovery and sweetspotting the ledge as best they can. Mewtwo's Dsmash is very powerful and hits below the ledge, so it is basically like Ike's Eruption in that it is a fantastic punish for ledge snap recoveries. Sharking Mewtwo under the stage with Aether is important, but you can't do it all the time for fear of eating a Shadow Ball.

Mewtwo's Usmash can catch you on the ground, and tends to suck people in. While it is every bit as laggy as Ike's Usmash, its hitbox lasts even longer and is stationary, so it can be deceptive and pulls you in from weird angles. Due to Mewtwo's massively buffed running speed, sliding Usmash now slides A LOT, which can be a big problem for you guys if you are above Mewtwo.

Due to Mewtwo' speed increase, I would think Ike's falling Bair/ SH Bair are even more important.

I think Ike has a much faster grab than Mewtwo, so pivot grabs from Ike are very important, as well as using grab to punish. All of Ike's scariest conversions are off of grabs (and aerial hits in general).

Ike's dash attack is great for neutral punishes, and has a crazy range, but Mewtwo's dash attack is lightning-quick!

Finally, even though Confusion does not combo into anything for Mewtwo, it has just as much range as Ike's Fair does, deals 9%, and resets back to neutral, so it can be annoying if the Mewtwo player is better at aerial spacing. On the ground, if you don't react fast enough, this can lead to a jab lock, Disable, and a free smash attack or throw for Mewtwo. BUT, if you react fast enough, you can get out of it having only taken the 9%.

All in all, I would say the matchup is much more even now.

Once I have more matchup experience, I think I will be able to offer better advice. Cheers, fellow Ikes. Also, give Mewtwo a shot if you haven't already and you want a second/pocket character. Mewtwo feels much, much more fun than he did before.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Can I put this here? Kill percent data and several kill confirms.

Vs. Cloud (Final Destination/Smashville)

UTilt
112%
146% (DI down + away)

USmash
95%
130% (DI down + away)

Uair
95% (UThrow. True combo)
100% (UThrow height with airdodge bait)

FTilt
102% (ledge)
120% (roll range)
142% (Midscreen)

FSmash
50% (ledge)
62% (roll range)
80% (Midscreen)

Fair
102% (ledge)
120% (roll range)
142% (Midscreen)
98% (UThrow combo at ledge)
118% (UThrow combo at ledge with forward DI. This is a true combo.)

DSmash
100% (second hit)

Dair
95% (sourspot, ledge. Used against Climhazzard)

Bair
75% (ledge trump)
86% (ledge)
101% (Bair)
121% (Midscreen)

DThrow
190%

 

[Blue Banana]

Hi, the Olimar board is now discussing the Ike matchup. Any input is appreciated.

 

[neil2020]

So just a heads up for us ike mains. I was playing my friend, and he went cloud. He got his limit break and used finishing touch at the ledge. The windbox caught my recovery and pushed me away and I died.. I recovered lower and he couldn't get it, but it is another gimp to be aware of.

 

[S_B]

Hey guys, we're discussing the Bowser MU over at Ike boards. Stop by and give us some insight on the 1.1.3 Bowser!

Pre-buff Ike strategy for dealing with Bowser: Jump off the stage twice.

Post-buff Ike strategy for dealing with Bowser: Wait patiently while Bowser jumps off the stage twice.

But seriously, Ike's nair spacing is nutty, his jab comes out crazy fast, and his aerials in general pose huge problems for Bowser. Ike completely outranges Bowser in the air as well.

If Ike Side+Bs to the ledge, be wary of Bowser reading it and meeting it with an Fsmash.

Other than that, the safest thing Bowser can really do is run in and grab you between aerials. If a Bowser is recovering high, don't try to charge neutral B on the ledge because the Bowser can Side+B and snatch you right off the ledge if you don't let the attack go quickly enough.

Try to avoid rolling onto or falling onto Bowser's shield. He'll just Up+B out of shield and tack 11% onto you

Don't overcommit to anything and you should generally be fine. Don't throw out smash attacks because Bowser can run up and grounded bomb you. Make sure your aerials are auto cancelling so Bowser doesn't have a chance to run in and grab you.

More than anything, Bowser is going to get disgusting mileage off of a grab on you, so avoid giving him the chance if you can. I'm not sure when you can actually jump out of the Uthrow > Uair, but Ike is relatively heavy so any good Bowser will stale the piss out of Uthrow but keep Uair fresh via Nairing you instead until you're in kill % for Uair (which can even destroy Gdorf ~100% when fresh).

The Bowser matchup is all about spacing. Bowser is going to want to get in. You outrange him so just keep him out as best you can.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

If Ike Side+Bs to the ledge, be wary of Bowser reading it and meeting it with an Fsmash.

Nah, don't use Fsmash, far too slow. You have precious frames to react to Ike's launching of quickdraw from charge. Our answer to this is definitely Ftilt. Bowser leans back before launching the move with arm intangibility. And at 4 active frames, timing this option is more lenient than other tilts and aerials. A successful Ftilt on Ike's quickdraw should result in a kill every day of the week unless Ike still has double jump in order to reach his position for Aether.

Aether is easier for us to beat. Run off the stage as the sword is coming up, Bair him as he ascends. The timing definitely takes practice, but aether doesn't allow for many mixups in positioning, and virtually none in terms of timing. I like this option more because we can ledge snap backwards during Fortress now. I don't need to tell an Ike main how much not being able to do this sucks, but I also know it's worse for you guys since Ike won't grab the ledge ever from behind. Our issue was just having to complete our Fortress before Bowser would grab the ledge. Getting past the sword and Dair dunking also works all of the time, but losing our stock is not ideal. Onstage Dair dunk also is a promising choice, but Ike using Aether at maximum range might let him stay safe. I can't really say if this is accurate though.

Bowser should try to use Fire Breath against Ike. Ike has trouble getting over it. So smart, consistent use of Fire Breath will tack on some free damage and reset the neutral. Ike will want to stay spaced, because our punishes are mean. All it takes is for you to be suffering at least 11 frames worth of lag at sword's length for us to punish you with Bowser Bomb. Which kills at best and deals 24% at worst. I'm also not threatened by Ike's edgeguarding. Eruption's spike could kill us, sure, but the move is so telegraphed that it takes no effort to control Fortress in a way that lets us get hit by the softer, vertical hit. I also don't fear his coverage of our ledge options. Let go of the ledge, jump onstage with Flying Slam. It looks like an aerial which Ike dutifully blocks. But aerial Flying Slam grabs through shields and beats dodges with our absence of landing lag. Moves that typically beat this choice are multihits, like Lucario's charging aura sphere or Bowser's grounded Fortress. Ike doesn't have anything like that. Once he's caught on to this trick and started using non commital jabs and grabs to beat it, use actual ledge options to get past him.

 

[Swooch on in]

Hey Ike boards, I don't know if you already discussed this match up but I have a Mario player and a captain falcon player that give me a lot of trouble. Any tips on this? I usually end up switching to a secondary like tlink or Luigi but I want to see what I can do as Ike against them. Also this is my first post around here, glad to finally Swooch on in.

 

[Macedonian]

Nah, don't use Fsmash, far too slow. You have precious frames to react to Ike's launching of quickdraw from charge. Our answer to this is definitely Ftilt. Bowser leans back before launching the move with arm intangibility. And at 4 active frames, timing this option is more lenient than other tilts and aerials. A successful Ftilt on Ike's quickdraw should result in a kill every day of the week unless Ike still has double jump in order to reach his position for Aether.

Aether is easier for us to beat. Run off the stage as the sword is coming up, Bair him as he ascends. The timing definitely takes practice, but aether doesn't allow for many mixups in positioning, and virtually none in terms of timing. I like this option more because we can ledge snap backwards during Fortress now. I don't need to tell an Ike main how much not being able to do this sucks, but I also know it's worse for you guys since Ike won't grab the ledge ever from behind. Our issue was just having to complete our Fortress before Bowser would grab the ledge. Getting past the sword and Dair dunking also works all of the time, but losing our stock is not ideal. Onstage Dair dunk also is a promising choice, but Ike using Aether at maximum range might let him stay safe. I can't really say if this is accurate though.

Bowser should try to use Fire Breath against Ike. Ike has trouble getting over it. So smart, consistent use of Fire Breath will tack on some free damage and reset the neutral. Ike will want to stay spaced, because our punishes are mean. All it takes is for you to be suffering at least 11 frames worth of lag at sword's length for us to punish you with Bowser Bomb. Which kills at best and deals 24% at worst. I'm also not threatened by Ike's edgeguarding. Eruption's spike could kill us, sure, but the move is so telegraphed that it takes no effort to control Fortress in a way that lets us get hit by the softer, vertical hit. I also don't fear his coverage of our ledge options. Let go of the ledge, jump onstage with Flying Slam. It looks like an aerial which Ike dutifully blocks. But aerial Flying Slam grabs through shields and beats dodges with our absence of landing lag. Moves that typically beat this choice are multihits, like Lucario's charging aura sphere or Bowser's grounded Fortress. Ike doesn't have anything like that. Once he's caught on to this trick and started using non commital jabs and grabs to beat it, use actual ledge options to get past him.

You really think ftilt for bowser is more potent then the Dtilt? The strong low knockback, the quick double hit, has always scared me and seemed to kill me more often then does ftilt.

For aether I highly recomend using flame breath as an edegaurd first and at low percents. That way the next time the Ike will try to recover he will try to go for that sweet spotted maximum range, making it easier to nail the timing by limiting his aether options to only one specific timing

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

You really think ftilt for bowser is more potent then the Dtilt? The strong low knockback, the quick double hit, has always scared me and seemed to kill me more often then does ftilt.

For aether I highly recomend using flame breath as an edegaurd first and at low percents. That way the next time the Ike will try to recover he will try to go for that sweet spotted maximum range, making it easier to nail the timing by limiting his aether options to only one specific timing

I would choose Ftilt over Dtilt because Dtilt's swipes don't have quite as much priority as Ftilt. Like I said, Bowser Ftilt leans back before launching his fist, allowing him to stay out of Ike's Quickdraw proximity detector. With Dtilt, Bowser is leaning forward for the whole move, so trades and outright losing due to being just a bit late are more common. Ftilt also has 4 active frames instead of 3, and it's higher base knockback gives it about the same killing power as Dtilt, and generally more for low % gimping. We don't have many uses for Ftilt because it's primary niche is for beating incoming attacks you know are on their way. Once Ike is winding up quick draw, you know he has to release it, there's no question of him doing anything else at this point, unlike Ike coming at you with a short hop.

Fire Breath is another good call that I've certainly brought up before for the Ike matchup. It can also be used as a safer means of defending against Quickdraw if timing attacks is not your specialty. Just a quick blast, long enough to aim directly at an incoming Ike, then cut it off. It forces Ike to continue falling for his aether spacing, and that's where our aether edgeguard options come in.

Overall for this matchup. I can't think of it any other way than even. The way I see it, fighting Ike is about as close as you can get to a Bowser ditto, without actually fighting another Bowser. We have the same range, similar priority (our attacks have limb intangibility while the hitboxes are active, which is almost as good as a sword, Dair is impossibly well disjointed, and our Usmash beats any incoming aerials due to shellguard), long startup, long enough endlag to warrant good spacing, and similar movement speed and air stats. We even become monsters in custom move settings. The only hard differences is that Ike's aerials are safer to use, while our specials are generally more threatening in the neutral. Knowing what a Bowser ditto is like, I can't imagine an advantage for either side. Bowser can punish Bowser, beat Bowser's moves, edgeguard Bowser, kill Bowser early with a good read. It sucks, but it's manageable.

Oh, and I guess we have a combo throw now. It's not a weight dependent throw, and Ike is a fast falling heavy weight, so his odds of escaping true followups are pretty low. My best advice is to DI away to avoid Uair at kill percents. There's a point where we stop having this as a followup simply because Bowser's standard jump + double jump doesn't take him high enough to react the target. But with Ike being the fast falling heavyweight that he is, that threshold might not ever come. Launch angle is 82, so if you DI toward him instead, you'll be sent straight up, which isn't ideal for you. For all the combo followups at low and mid percents, Ike probably doesn't have a shot at avoiding anything unless he accurately predicts something wild and unorthodox from Bowser. We're still getting used to this throw. Suddenly realizing that our Aerials have some guaranteed use, and that an empty hop can, for the first time, bait an air dodge because people are so afraid of it.

 

[super fan bros]

Me I think that the MU Bowser vs Ike is 50-50.

On the one hand Ike has good combo which are even more effective on Bowser saw his hurtbox has overall a little less lag and has also a better recovery.

On another side Bowser is faster overall a little more powerful a better knockback in his shots.


50-50 I seem to be a good MU

 

[Arrei]

I get that feeling too, though I'm actually wondering if Bowser might have a small advantage with how formidable his Uthrow Uair kill setup is. Ike can do it to Bowser too, I think, but Bowser's heftier and reaches farther with his grab, and Uair works for a real long time.

But perhaps that just comes down to what Zapp mentioned about it being a lot like a Bowser ditto and Bowser beating himself.

 

[pitfall356]

I've always had a lot of trouble fighting Ike. His long range and auto-cancelled aerials often keep me stuck in shield, which can be quickly punished without reaction time by a grab. He keeps me boxed out with his sword and it's tough for me to get in.

 

[Big-Cat]

I think it's a bit early for us to really try to analyze the Cloud MU, but I'd definitely like to go over the characters Nidtendofreak mentioned.
: The U-Throw changes work wonders for Bowser, especially since Ike is a heavy-weight.
: I haven't personally played any Mewtwo's after the update, but just looking at the patch note changes is enough to justify visiting this MU
: It feels like Shulk always seems to get tiny buffs, but they might add up to something now. He's the only sword character that out-ranges Ike so that's definitely something to keep in mind.

Let me know what advice you guys have for these MUs

Responding to the request for insight. My advice is to not counter when in the air, period. This is generally a bad idea to begin with, but if you try to Counter following UThrow, we're just gonna eat the counterattack like nothing. Speaking of which, Showtime > UAir kills Ike at no rage at around 107% if I grab you at that damage.

Because of the recovery (I'm not saying lag, dammit), don't waste your time hitting with aerials on . A smart is staying on the ground when it's not showtime. This is primarily a footsies battle and waiting to see who trips up first. Because this is mostly footsies, 's range is a serious advantage in this matchup, but 's moves also have more recovery as a result so keep that in mind. Another issue is that 's close ranged game is weak. If Bowser's on top of you, you aren't going to be in the best position for OOS aerials as can just beat out aerials with USmash or shield and then it's showtime. Another tip is that has limited landing options. Exploit that with Eruption for edge guarding and UAir.

Overall, I think the vs. MU is either even or 55-45 in Ike's favor.

 

[MewSquared]

Hey guys, just saw the post over on the boards asking for some help on this matchup, thought I would come in and give some input! So in my region (DFW, Texas) we have an player named Critter. He definitely has some skill, he's gotten top 8 at our Shockwave weekly and has taken sets of some of the better players in the area. We have played a few matches and here's what I pulled from the MU. can play a run away game against very well, simply running away and spamming uncharged Shadow Balls to keep away, then using 's tail (tilts, bair, etc) to poke at him when he gets in. 's floatiness helps escape some of Ike's combos, but for the most part since Ike doesn't really link combos over 3 or 4 hits it usually connects. Overall I think can dominate on the stage when played correctly in neutral. Now 's true strength in this MU is when he gets off stage. Out of all the characters I've ever played against in bracket, I probably have the hardest time returning to the stage and getting back in neutral against . Ike has pretty solid movement and air speed for such a brute hitter with a big sword, and struggles with getting his foot on the stage in the first place. Once gets off stage, the player should deal massive damage and potentially even take a stock. Using move's like nair, bair, dash attack, and more can give hell for a player. Not to mention that loses stocks to super easily. Up tilt is probably the most dangerous move. It's decently fast and kills very early. It's been a while for me to remember exact percents, but it probably kills at like 100%. His smashes and stronger aerials can kill at like 70% it's pretty ugly. Overall I don't think either character wins the MU too favorably, since gives so much hell when is offstage and gives alot of hell on stage. Not to mention 's Shadow Ball can edge guard very effectively. Honestly, until I play some other 's I won't be able to give an exact number, but from my experiences the MU is pretty even.

 

[san.]

Thanks for the insight Big-Cat and MewSquared . Definitely appreciated.

I think I was underestimating how Bowser's jab game with the occasional tilt coincides with his grabs. I think it really helps him stay grounded for more of the match, since both his spacing and high reward moves can be performed on the ground.

Mewtwo's gigantic speed boost helped it shift from Ike's favor to a large question mark for me. That boost was no joke.

 

[neil2020]

I've been getting bodied by bowser grab setups out of jab, and Bowser's uthrow->uair is now a force to be reckoned with. While before the patch I would have placed Ike above bowser, now I can say with confidence I think it is 50:50; whoever messes up first in footsies is gonna die.