PPMD's opinion on PM

[WIZRD.Pro]

Sure if you removed the current ledge mechanic entirely then removing edgehoging would be no big deal. But then at the same time you are proposing to remove a mechanic that has been a staple of the game for three generations. Even Smash4 has it to some degree I believe although it may be closer to what you want. I don't see you giving suggestions for revamping the system so you saying that edgehoging should be removed is just plain asinine as removing it by itself would ruin the game as it currently is. So NO edgehoging does not hurt the gameplay and should not be removed.

Yes, but in 4 you must grab ledge AFTER the opponent instead of before.

 

[Bleck]

The ledge is very safe if you know what you are doing. Intercepting a recovery moving is near impossible at certain angles when recoveries are sweetspotted. There are other options yes but taking away edgehoging gives the recovering player far more options and control of the situation.

Being in a situation where you can't stop your opponent from getting back to the stage is not necessarily an implicitly bad possibility. Note that edgehogging is a subversion of the rest of the game's mechanics; it's more easy to do than any combo, it's more effective than any kill move, and it has little and less to do with your percent.

The interesting parts of the game - onstage game, actual edgeguarding - don't actually suffer if edgehogging weren't a thing.

It is also does require "forethought and execution" because you can opt not to do it if you feel that the recovering player will also choose another option and even when you do execute it you may need to time it correctly for it to even work as you are not entirely safe while edgehoging so the entire mechanic has great depth and produces many situations where both players need to predict and time their moves properly to outdo each other in a very small amount of time.

Being able to choose between edgehogging and not edgehogging is not depth. Or at least, not any appreciable amount of depth.

Also, edgehogging against a Fox who's trying to side special when he could have up special'd is a different situation from edgehogging a Bowser who had to choose between trying to recover with up special and letting himself die. The situations in which edgehogging is not the best solution to the problem of 'your opponent is trying to recover' usually involve characters who are blessed with options that can obfuscate the process with which you determine what the best option to edgeguard with should be. In this way, edgehogging is also a significant contributor to warping of balance; lower-tier characters, in Melee especially, are significantly (with some exceptions) more weak to edgehogging than the Melee top tiers are.

It is entirely your opinion how entertaining/skillful you think edgehoging is but others including me think otherwise so there's no point for you to keep telling us how crappy it looks because as I have stated before I think it looks just fine.

Yes, but as I've said, whether or not something is satisfying in a competitive context is not limited to whether or not the players themselves believe it to be so.

Sure if you removed the current ledge mechanic entirely than removing edgehoging would be no big deal. But then at the same time you are proposing to remove a mechanic that has been a staple of the game for three generations.

Something having been the way it is for any period of time is not a good reason as to why it should remain as such.

I don't see you giving suggestions for revamping the system so you saying that edgehoging should be removed is just plain asinine .

Nobody has asked me what I would suggest instead.

I would like to thank you for being so calm Blek. I would like to ask the question however of what if you're playing a character Shiek has a good match up against but Zelda is horrible against? Is it your fault for wanting to play Zeik, or the game's fault for forcing you to change. Also I would like to inform you that even if you were on opposite sides of Dreamland and used Transform with a bunch of fireballs out, the opponent will still get to you.

To be honest, I think the only real solution to the Sheik/Zelda problem is the conclusion that Sakurai already came to for Smash 4 - split them up. Because yes, I agree that nobody who wants to play as Sheik should have to play as Zelda at any point, but I also think it's largely impossible for both characters to be really good without taking a big dump on balance. So I'd have to go with it's the game's fault, definitely.

Yes, but in 4 you must grab ledge AFTER the opponent instead of before.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves, here - we won't know exactly how it works in Smash 4 until the game is out. We only got an incomplete explanation of the mechanics so far, so it won't be any good to focus on them now.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Increased options for edgeguarding players are not necessarily a bad thing, but that doesn't mean that any edgeguarding option is, by extension, implicitly good. Some characters do have a lackluster punish game off stage, yes - but the only reason that having a good offstage game matters as much as it does is because of the influence of the Melee metagame. There are other ways, more interesting ways, to make characters better and/or develop a healthier metagame (e.g maybe the PM metagame wouldn't be so focused around offstage capability if walk-off stages were actually allowed).

Why exactly is edgehogging such a bad thing? Because it looks boring? That's subjective because I don't find it looks boring at all. When a clench edgehog occurs, I find it to be pretty engaging.

I think the problem with allowing more walk off stages comes from the fact that they tend to have very shallow boundaries and a throw or smash from very low %, if done even slightly close to that, is a guaranteed kill from nothing more than being at a bad place with seemingly very little risk involved. It doesn't help that characters with decent chain grabs could probably start a grab, work towards that ledge and effortlessly kill. Center balance too much around the stage elements that were more common in Brawl, and the game ends up as unbalanced as Brawl

 

[Bleck]

Why exactly is edgehogging such a bad thing?

but I just

Because it looks boring? That's subjective because I don't find it looks boring at all. When a clench edgehog occurs, I find it to be pretty engaging.

Yes, but as I've said, whether or not something is satisfying in a competitive context is not limited to whether or not the players themselves believe it to be so.

I think the problem with allowing more walk off stages comes from the fact that they tend to have very shallow boundaries and a throw or smash from very low %, if done even slightly close to that, is a guaranteed kill from nothing more than being at a bad place with seemingly very little risk involved. It doesn't help that characters with decent chain grabs could probably start a grab, work towards that ledge and effortlessly kill. Center balance too much around the stage elements that were more common in Brawl, and the game ends up as unbalanced as Brawl

Being close to the blast zone should be a double-bladed sword; trying to camp and bait your opponent into an easy kill should also, hypothetically, put you in a position where it's easy for them to do the same to you.

It would be easy to abuse with chaingrabs, yes, but I think that chaingrabs just generally shouldn't exist (note; I'm referring more to Dedede's Brawl down-throw kind of chaingrabs, not so much Pit's PM down-throw kind of chaingrabs).

 

[Rᴏb]

I'd argue that simple mechanics such as edgehogging are satisfying because they compliment the other aspects of the game. Edgehogging puts a greater importance on the onstage game because it makes you not want to be put into the position where you can't recover onto the edge. I don't think it's right to analyze edgehogging without understanding the other aspects of the game and how they work in tandem. I believe that once you do this you will realize that the simpler approach to all of this can be appreciated by players, viewers, whoever.

... But it's impossible to satisfy everyone regardless of the context.

 

[yohoos]

Being in a situation where you can't stop your opponent from getting back to the stage is not necessarily an implicitly bad possibility. Note that edgehogging is a subversion of the rest of the game's mechanics; it's more easy to do than any combo, it's more effective than any kill move, and it has little and less to do with your percent.

That is entirely not true. Not being able to do anything as you watch your opponent get back for free is not engaging to either player and just as an example that is one of the aspects where brawl fails because you literally could not stop people from coming back that sometimes you just had to sit there and wait as it happens. It is boring to play against and even more boring to watch. In fact go ahead and take a poll and see who would rather watch a successful edgehog and who would rather watch a free recovery.

I also think you are confused with the effectiveness of edgehoging in most situations. It is as effective as any spike/gimp and it is as risky as any spike/gimp because it is not entirely safe and it forces you to give up center stage. Also, it shouldn't have to always reflect percentages because this is SMASH BROS where anything can happen. The additional sandbox aspect of the game is what differentiates it from traditional fighters that rely on HP bars.

The ONLY situations where edgehoging is OP and brainlessly dumb is when the recoverying character has absolutely trash recovery options like my main CAPTAIN FALCON and when the recovering player is so far out that they can only reach for the ledge. The first situation needs to be fixed eventually with recovery rebalancing in the game and the second situation, well, if you got knocked that far out of the stage then face it, you deserve to basically lose your stock and it is a trade off for certain characters for balance.

The interesting parts of the game - onstage game, actual edgeguarding - don't actually suffer if edgehogging weren't a thing.

Edgeguarding suffers because it becomes far less effective as the remaining edgeguarding tools are not enough to deal with all the recovery options in a balanced manner that should favor the edgeguarder.

Being able to choose between edgehogging and not edgehogging is not depth. Or at least, not any appreciable amount of depth.

Also, edgehogging against a Fox who's trying to side special when he could have up special'd is a different situation from edgehogging a Bowser who had to choose between trying to recover with up special and letting himself die. The situations in which edgehogging is not the best solution to the problem of 'your opponent is trying to recover' usually involve characters who are blessed with options that can obfuscate the process with which you determine what the best option to edgeguard with should be. In this way, edgehogging is also a significant contributor to warping of balance; lower-tier characters, in Melee especially, are significantly (with some exceptions) more weak to edgehogging than the Melee top tiers are.

Providing more options and new situations = more depth. And yes I agree that in a situation where bowser has only one option makes edgehoging bring less depth to the game but most of the time Bowser should be able to reach past the ledge and go for the stage. At the point where you can only reach for ledge is where you deserve to be put at such a disadvantageous situation because you were probably at high %, no DI, or played like crap. At that point any edgeguarding tactic would work, edgehoging just makes it so that we don't have to see Marth Fsmash Bowser 3 more times before it's over. Besides, recoveries range from good to bad based on character balancing which is a topic for another thread. If you go dig up the recovery thread you will see that I support long range recoveries more so than short ones albeit they should be punishable and not super safe.

Yes, but as I've said, whether or not something is satisfying in a competitive context is not limited to whether or not the players themselves believe it to be so.

So what else should be factored in? Spectator entertainment? Because as I've said I enjoy seeing it as much as I enjoy doing it.

Something having been the way it is for any period of time is not a good reason as to why it should remain as such.

It is if it's worked for over a decade.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Being close to the blast zone should be a double-bladed sword; trying to camp and bait your opponent into an easy kill should also, hypothetically, put you in a position where it's easy for them to do the same to you.

It would be easy to abuse with chaingrabs, yes, but I think that chaingrabs just generally shouldn't exist (note; I'm referring more to Dedede's Brawl down-throw kind of chaingrabs, not so much Pit's PM down-throw kind of chaingrabs).

Doesn't that first part go hand in hand with ledgeplay and edgehogging in general? Why is it okay to get an easy kill off the side of the stage and not okay to gimp someone via an edgehog because you knocked them low enough and prevented their recovery? Both would be risky, but the difference I can see is one destroys every character equally , possibly regardless of DI, and the other gives an opportunity of recovery.

 

[Roxas215]

It was not. Saying that somebody is wrong, or even that they aren't thinking something through all the way, is not necessarily a disdainful comment on their intelligence.



Not literally, no, but basically stuff about edgehogging and recoveries and onstage vs offstage presence are all actually the same topic.



Does Diddy have any throw to kill setups? It certainly doesn't feel that way.




Correct me if I'm wrong, but I said that switching to Zelda and using Farore's Wind was a good way to recover.

You should not be having to recover if you are on stage. I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure.



You can, in fact, switch back to Sheik after switching to Zelda.



Perhaps this isn't the place to be having a discussion about whether or not Sheik is underpowered.

There's lots of stuff i want to say but your right this isn't a Sheik discussion.

Diddy is a contender for top 5 character in the game though. And he probably has THE BEST RECOVERY out of the entire cast. Lacking a kill setup from throw (Idk if he does or not.) Isn't really saying anything when he's a amazing character outright.

 

[Bleck]

That is entirely not true. Not being able to do anything as you watch your opponent get back for free is not engaging to either player

I already said this wasn't what I was arguing in favor of. Try reading the parts of my posts that aren't specifically directed towards you.

It is if it's worked for over a decade.

...no, it's not.

Doesn't that first part go hand in hand with ledgeplay and edgehogging in general? Why is it okay to get an easy kill off the side of the stage and not okay to gimp someone via an edgehog because you knocked them low enough and prevented their recovery? Both would be risky, but the difference I can see is one destroys every character equally , possibly regardless of DI, and the other gives an opportunity of recovery.

Because one is getting an easy kill in a manner that also puts you at risk of easily dying, whereas the other is getting an easy kill. You have to keep in mind, like I said, that a lot of characters (talking Melee, here) just don't have as many options as you're used to considering when it comes to recovery; there's a specific zone of influence off stage that characters can be in and still be considered able to recover (note; not safely, just recover) based on a) the range of their recoveries and the b) the possibility that they'll be edgehogged.

When you consider a character like Bowser, the range where he can recover from is relatively long horizontally, but ends pretty sharply after a short vertical decline. However, when you consider the idea that he'll be edgehogged, that area immediately shrinks both horizontally and vertically. There are no options for Bowser, and that's sort of my point here; in Melee (and what a lot of people want for PM), people are used to edgehogging being an okay thing because there are ways you can mix up and deal with it, and I get that. But what other people don't get is that the fact that 99% of professional Melee matches are between one of four characters because a significant number of other characters are not only much weaker on stage for various reasons, but also have marginally weaker recoveries.

There are basically two ways to deal with this; make everyone have much better recoveries - a path that, as you can plainly see, is not popular with many of the PM community - or remove edgehogging from the equation, so that a character's ability to edgeguard is a specific thing to a character and not a universal mechanic that prevents half the cast from being viable.

That's really the crux of the matter, here - edgehogging, regardless of whether or not it actually does add meaningful interactions to the game, is available to everybody, and as such immediately does much to prevent a significant chunk of the cast from being viable (again, it's not the only reason, but still). The supposed depth that it adds to the play between the few characters that can manage to deal with it is not worth the depth that we're losing by so much of the cast being virtually unplayable.

Diddy is a contender for top 5 character in the game though. And he probably has THE BEST RECOVERY out of the entire cast. Lacking a kill setup from throw (Idk if he does or not.) Isn't really saying anything when he's a amazing character outright.

I agree, Diddy is very strong.

 

[Chevy]

Also I would like to inform you that even if you were on opposite sides of Dreamland and used Transform with a bunch of fireballs out, the opponent will still get to you.

Only if you're playing against Sonic and you placed all of the fireballs in the sky. Especially considering transforming would make the fireballs explode, hindering your opponent. I get that you're trying to make a point, but this is just silly, lol.

And he probably has THE BEST RECOVERY out of the entire cast.

This is insane. Diddy Kong is perfectly manageable, Up-b takes forever to charge and you can see what angle he's going to go, and react in time. It's not disjointed enough to dissuade interception, and can be easily edge-hogged. He also can't get jack for height if he has to travel any significant horizontal distance with it. He has good mix-ups with side-b but we're talking about a game with Mewtwo, Samus, Pikachu, multijumpers, etc. in it.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Because one is getting an easy kill in a manner that also puts you at risk of easily dying, whereas the other is getting an easy kill. You have to keep in mind, like I said, that a lot of characters (talking Melee, here) just don't have as many options as you're used to considering when it comes to recovery; there's a specific zone of influence off stage that characters can be in and still be considered able to recover (note; not safely, just recover) based on a) the range of their recoveries and the b) the possibility that they'll be edgehogged.

Some characters have limitations to their recovery that is inherent in their design. It doesn't mean that the game should necessarily be changed to accommodate troubles that those characters have. By getting rid of ledgehogging, you kind of make it even harder to edgeguard spacies, especially Falco who's Side B you couldn't easily challenge from a position that should be inherently advantageous.

When you consider a character like Bowser, the range where he can recover from is relatively long horizontally, but ends pretty sharply after a short vertical decline. However, when you consider the idea that he'll be edgehogged, that area immediately shrinks both horizontally and vertically. There are no options for Bowser, and that's sort of my point here; in Melee (and what a lot of people want for PM), people are used to edgehogging being an okay thing because there are ways you can mix up and deal with it, and I get that. But what other people don't get is that the fact that 99% of professional Melee matches are between one of four characters because a significant number of other characters are not only much weaker on stage for various reasons, but also have marginally weaker recoveries.

Bowser is relatively difficult to kill outside of putting him off the sides or dunking him, due to both his weight and his armor frames. I'm iffy on ledgehogging Bowser though, since his up B lasts for a decent amount of time and unless you hog him perfectly, odds are you will get tapped off the ledge and he will grab it. Though it's also possible that the hogger could drop off the ledge and hit Bowser with an attack with higher priority and send him to his death. I'm not really sure why you're mentioning Melee matches though, since I assumed we were talking about edgehogging in PM, where there's a much greater variety of options at any given time for the cast, asides from characters who do get occasional tweaks to their recovery that might assist them. DK had the same problems that Bowser did, but he seemed to get a slightly better vertical rise from his in the last update, so who knows. I don't personally know what Bowser "needs" added to him as a character.

There are basically two ways to deal with this; make everyone have much better recoveries - a path that, as you can plainly see, is not popular with many of the PM community - or remove edgehogging from the equation, so that a character's ability to edgeguard is a specific thing to a character and not a universal mechanic that prevents half the cast from being viable.

In removing edgehogging, you also remove Bowser's ability to down B into the ledge and quickly stuff possible recovering opponents. In the process of making things more fair to the majority. I mention Bowser here specifically because you did earlier,I'm sure there are other things you'd also take away, but they don't come to mind yet. I don't really have a problem with some characters receiving minor boosts to their recovery, but it really depends on who since as you'd said, there are so many characters with already good recoveries that it would cause some major salt.

That's really the crux of the matter, here - edgehogging, regardless of whether or not it actually does add meaningful interactions to the game, is available to everybody, and as such immediately does much to prevent a significant chunk of the cast from being viable (again, it's not the only reason, but still). The supposed depth that it adds to the play between the few characters that can manage to deal with it is not worth the depth that we're losing by so much of the cast being virtually unplayable.

Every character is good and bad at certain things. Some characters can dominate the stage with their mere presence, yet can't handle themselves when put off stage. Other characters are mostly good at getting others off stage where they have more control. I find that this is more an issue for players that can't deal with it than characters that can't. A good player will play to their strengths and try to work on their character's shortcomings. I don't find it to be "supposed depth", I find it to be actual depth added to the gameplay. How many characters actually become "unplayable" as a result of one strategy, based upon one mechanic in the game?

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

Only if you're playing against Sonic and you placed all of the fireballs in the sky. Especially considering transforming would make the fireballs explode, hindering your opponent. I get that you're trying to make a point, but this is just silly, lol

Transform isn't that fast on a Wii IIRC

 

[yohoos]

I already said this wasn't what I was arguing in favor of. Try reading the parts of my posts that aren't specifically directed towards you.

Gunna have to point that out to me because I'm not looking to meticulously scan over every word in this long and drawn out thread. As far as I'm concerned even if that's not what you are arguing for it was still a poorly designed response for all the reasons I've stated.

...no, it's not.

Yes it is. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

That's really the crux of the matter, here - edgehogging, regardless of whether or not it actually does add meaningful interactions to the game, is available to everybody, and as such immediately does much to prevent a significant chunk of the cast from being viable (again, it's not the only reason, but still). The supposed depth that it adds to the play between the few characters that can manage to deal with it is not worth the depth that we're losing by so much of the cast being virtually unplayable.

Once again, YOU feel this way. Not to question your skills or anything but I have a perfectly normal time recovering with most characters without feeling cheated out of my stocks. Once again it's not that the characters are bad because they get edgehogged it's because the player him/herself is bad or simply just made a bad decision for being put in the situation to get edgehogged.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

Once again, YOU feel this way. Not to question your skills or anything but I have a perfectly normal time recovering with most characters without feeling cheated out of my stocks. Once again it's not that the characters are bad because they get edgehogged it's because the player him/herself is bad or simply just made a bad decision for being put in the situation to get edgehogged.

Plus, if you're offstage you SHOULD be at a great disadvantage IMO. When you get hit offstage, it shouldn't be a basic occurrence, it should be a life or death matter like what is seen with Roy, Fox, Wolf, Bowser, DK and most definitely Falco.

 

[yohoos]

Plus, if you're offstage you SHOULD be at a great disadvantage IMO. When you get hit offstage, it shouldn't be a basic occurrence, it should be a life or death matter like what is seen with Roy, Fox, Wolf, Bowser, DK and most definitely Falco.

I agree. I feel that those characters' recoveries should be the standard in a game like this but currently they are so outclassed it's almost unfair. Falco's however, is a different story, his is just too extreme IMO and it's very controversial to say whether he deserves the crap he is given.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

I agree. I feel that those characters' recoveries should be the standard in a game like this but currently they are so outclassed it's almost unfair. Falco's however, is a different story, his is just too extreme IMO and it's very controversial to say whether he deserves the crap he is given.

I agree 100%

And I also do have to say, Falco is arguably one of if not THE most balanced character in the game. He has an amazing and dominating on-stage presence, but once he's offstage recovering is as easy as eating steak with a straw.

IMO, Brawl Newcomer Multi-Jump Characters will be the hardest to nerf. Well, except DDD, he's already VERY nerfed. But Pit MK and Charizard are OP to the stars with their recoveries. And while Pit may not seem like he has an acceptable recovery, may I remind you of his glide? A move that can carry him under ANY stage, recover and still have time to fight off a gimp.

 

[Terotrous]

I think the PMBR is open for this but might have a slight bias against critique from Melee (only) players for not supporting or even discrediting their work, some of them being not informed well.
PPMD could definitely help because of his great understanding of Melee. Together with the PMBR members being well informed about PM's current mechanics it could be quite a good idea.

I don't know, his attitude basically seems to be that he wants it to be the exact same game as Melee (not that surprising considering he's one of the best there is at that game), and I think there's already enough of that mentality guiding PM's design as it is.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Nah it isn't the same, there is a variety of Melee opinions between
"PM sux" and "If they would restore this and this it might be even better" and PPMD is a inbetween but closer to the second one. I guess they shouldn't make too much the way he wants it but it could be helpful because he has such a deep insight in Melee-type fighters and also he might find compromises which make the game better even if not like Melee, he doesn't seem like a stubborn person to me

 

[Terotrous]

Nah it isn't the same, there is a variety of Melee opinions between
"PM sux" and "If they would restore this and this it might be even better" and PPMD is a inbetween but closer to the second one. I guess they shouldn't make too much the way he wants it but it could be helpful because he has such a deep insight in Melee-type fighters and also he might find compromises which make the game better even if not like Melee, he doesn't seem like a stubborn person to me

Maybe not, but I'm still getting that "new to PM" vibe from his post. It seems like there's a transition period for Melee players where they just can't wrap their head around the fact that some other types of characters are good now. I think that response that was provided to him about the reason it seems like Melee top tiers got worse is because they have to deal with a wider range of threats now is very legitimate.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Thats true he would need to get used to it first

 

[Raijinken]

Edit/Warning: As of my writing of this, I am more familiar with Melee's unforgiving edgeguarding specs, and thus assumed they were essentially unchanged going into PM. I will research the differences further and edit my stance if it becomes necessary.

Edgehogging is boring to watch. That alone should make it a bad mechanic for a spectatable sport. But all that aside, edgeguarding is, in the PMBR's own words, intended to be as follows:

• Offstage edgeguarding is risky but rewarding, while on-stage edgeguarding is safer but less rewarding.

Edgehogging is, from my perspective, on-stage guarding. Reasoning: It is safe for an experienced player due to invulnerability and rolling, does not require significant skill to execute (jump, hit edge, hogged), and rewards just as well as any spike or chase. By comparison, off-stage spikes or other attacks are flashier to watch, and a more impressive show of skill and showmanship, in the opinions of what I expect is the vast majority of players. Furthermore, chasing and spiking carry a risk of brief retaliation, turning a kill into a trade.

As a result of edgehogging being very safe and very rewarding, it more or less ignores the typical risk-reward relationship that guarding seems intended to have. This, in turn, makes it an overly powerful mechanic available to all characters and players. It ignores most mindgaming, matchups, and stage choices, as well.

This can, however, be countered by an interpretation of design intent, as:

• Recoveries generally require great skill to use, with the advantage usually being with the edgeguarding player, with some exceptions.

This could imply that any sort of edgeguarding advantage matters not as a matter of power, as that player is meant to have every advantage ("with some exceptions).
However, it is also said that:

• The balance of offense and defense changes depending on the exact matchup and playstyle, but overall tends to favor offense slightly.

This, to me, indicates that the goal is to encourage aggressive play, which would seemingly include chasing and attempted spikes, rather than the safe and secure edge grab. Thus, edgehogging appears to me as an overpowerful violation of the aggressive orientation that the game appears to be intended to favor.

Thus, as an unimpressive feat of taking the easy way to the kill, I feel that edgehogging is a poor mechanic in its current implementations.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Do you mean Melee's edgehogging or PM edgehogging because PM nerfed edgehogging

 

[Raijinken]

Do you mean Melee's edgehogging or PM edgehogging because PM nerfed edgehogging

Especially Melee's, but PM's still strikes me as too little risk for its reward. I would have to double-check the details behind it as I didn't actually remember there was a difference between M and PM until you pointed it out (I'm sure I read it in the past, but the only difference I can think of is that you can't hog tethers now). Until I check the major differences, though, I will edit in the caveat that I am more familiar with Melee's version, as I play house rules that forbid the technique altogether.

Also, if anyone can link me to some good sources explaining the changes, that would be great. I'll be checking Youtube and wikis first otherwise.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

The technique is quite important for the edgeguarder-recoverer balance established in the games and not allowing it can make certain characters better or worse.
Also there are in my opinion three points that make the edgeguarder "earn" his kill with edgehogging, so I wouldn't say its free...
1. He needs to grab the ledge in time
2. He needs to decide if to use an intangible dropzone aerial, stay at the ledge or refresh his intangibility frames
3. He needs to time his getup/getup attack/roll to maximize ledge occupancy frames. If he goes up too fast the opponent will grab the ledge, when he takes too long he will get hit
Also it is still a game of interaction because there are many possible mixups for the recoverer. I can see where critique is coming from but with PM's change making you not being that helpless to edgehogs it is quite fair.
Also one could argue (to support a recovery nerf and Melee's edgehog strength) that if you are offstage that way, you deserved getting KOd, it is just a form of conversion just like a kill move.
Basically PM tries a compromise, practice will show which solution does make more sense. I personally support restrengthening edgehogs a bit again so they are between the current PM and the original Melee strength

 

[Raijinken]

Also one could argue (to support a recovery nerf and Melee's edgehog strength) that if you are offstage that way, you deserved getting KOd, it is just a form of conversion just like a kill move.

I can see that argument, but equally effective (and what I have personally always gone by) is that if the player made it back to the stage, then you didn't earn the kill, and should have to hit them again rather than just chillin' on the edge for a second.

I also understand that there are decisions to be made regarding invulnerability and followup, but I don't see the operation as being risky for its potential reward. In a worst-case, the opponent recovers above your guard by a very small margin, and will recover before you can make it back up unless you pull a good waveland or other such options. In standard cases, though, surviving over an edgehog will still leave the hogger enough time to reposition without punishment. At least, that is what I tend to observe most.

 

[Daftatt]

"Melee characters did not transition well, they lost much of their refined control mechanisms and punishment abilities."

I can't take this statement with any legitimacy since it's not melee characters that didn't transition well, it's top tiers, 6 out of 26 that no longer dominate the metagame through obviously superior abilities, sure some of the characters have poorly designed moves, but they will be fixed, and at the end of the day...

PM = Melee + More Characters + Deeper Metagame + Richer Mechanical Depth (B-reversal and RAR and DACUS etc.) + More Balance + More Stages + More Customization Options

 

[yohoos]

I can see that argument, but equally effective (and what I have personally always gone by) is that if the player made it back to the stage, then you didn't earn the kill, and should have to hit them again rather than just chillin' on the edge for a second.

Just imagine some generic character using a generic Fsmash instead then. It's as safe/risky and effective as normal onstage edgeguarding it just looks different and is applied to cover some angles/options that an Fsmash or other move might not reach thereby keeping both players guessing and engaged. It's also used like Chesstiger2612 said as a balance tool for characters who do not have great onstage edgeguarding tools like a Marth Fsmash. I see edgehoging as no different than hitting a recovering player with any other typical edgeguard move.

I also understand that there are decisions to be made regarding invulnerability and followup, but I don't see the operation as being risky for its potential reward. In a worst-case, the opponent recovers above your guard by a very small margin, and will recover before you can make it back up unless you pull a good waveland or other such options. In standard cases, though, surviving over an edgehog will still leave the hogger enough time to reposition without punishment. At least, that is what I tend to observe most.

Once again the risk is there it's just in favor of the on stage player like with any other edgeguard situation. IMO having the opposing player be able to to return is a huge punishment in and of itself. Percentage only matters so much it's the stocks that count.

In your previous post you stated that you would rather see people go for deep gimps/spikes instead right? Well those tactics come with a lot of risk and it's not something that is commonplace because what if the attacking player misses or because the defending player saw it coming? Now he/she is in a terrible position and can get easily gimped/edgeguarded by the opposing player causing a huge shift in momentum. Such a situation would balance the aggressor and the defender to be on equal grounds but why should the aggressor always have to put himself at such great risks? Why should I be punished just as hard when you are the one in a bad offstage position recovering?

 

[Vigilante]

PPMD is willing to help, do you think PMBR would listen to his suggestions?

We are always willing to listen to suggestions.

Mind you, this game is still under heavy development, so now is the time for people to express their thoughts. If PPMD wants to talk to us, he can come to us at any time. We're very open to hearing him out.

 

[Deleted member]

the pmbr has been taking suggestions and ideas for at least two years

this thread is awful

 

[Chesstiger2612]

We are always willing to listen to suggestions.

Mind you, this game is still under heavy development, so now is the time for people to express their thoughts. If PPMD wants to talk to us, he can come to us at any time. We're very open to hearing him out.

@Dr Peepee
(someone had to build that bridge)

 

[kaizo13]

Fox
Falco
Marth
Sheik
Falcon

>top characters in Melee
>mediocre recoveries

these are the characters you see most being played, so when people say Melee is more exciting to watch than PM, i believe this is why.

you get to watch these characters with great onstage presence combo each other and when sent off stage, they have to truly fight their way back on (with mediocre recoveries that are very susceptible to being edgeguarded) So there never really is any downtime when it comes to action.

Where as being offstage in PM almost feels like taking a breather. The sense of risk and urgency is not always there, which shouldn't be the case when offstage in a platform fighter.

 

[Raijinken]

Such a situation would balance the aggressor and the defender to be on equal grounds but why should the aggressor always have to put himself at such great risks? Why should I be punished just as hard when you are the one in a bad offstage position recovering?

The aggressor need never take such risks if he simply lands a decisive move at a sufficient percentage. Thus, in my opinion, if the opponent recovers, it's a fair punishment for not killing him hard enough, so to speak.

 

[Vigilante]

What amuses me about some comments we get, and I mean no offense by that, is that people often assume that we don't want their feedback. We release demoes for the key purpose of getting key feedback. There're no need for anyone to feelreticent or even intimidated. We want you to come up to us and tell us if something bothers you. We welcome it.

The second problematic thing that sometimes occur is that with the release of demos, there are sometimes design issues or balance issues that the community will find. We know what the community believes should be fixed, but while we see the game evolve in real time, most poeple only see a static build that doesn't change at all for them until the next release.

Since you know that we're reading the comments, there's a pretty high chance that we know the community's oppinion, but either haven't gotten around tweaking it, or we already have but haven't released a build with the tweak yet.

Nevertheless, the key element to keep in mind is that our demoes exist to get feedback. It's partially why we make them in the first place. Don't be afraid to be brutally honest with us when you meet us.

 

[Roxas215]

Only if you're playing against Sonic and you placed all of the fireballs in the sky. Especially considering transforming would make the fireballs explode, hindering your opponent. I get that you're trying to make a point, but this is just silly, lol.


This is insane. Diddy Kong is perfectly manageable, Up-b takes forever to charge and you can see what angle he's going to go, and react in time. It's not disjointed enough to dissuade interception, and can be easily edge-hogged. He also can't get jack for height if he has to travel any significant horizontal distance with it. He has good mix-ups with side-b but we're talking about a game with Mewtwo, Samus, Pikachu, multijumpers, etc. in it.

This is so wrong. Diddy's recovery is stupid. You can't edgeguard cause it will hit you. You interrupt it you have to worry about barrels. He can recover from the depths of hell. Anyone even moderately familiar with diddy wont time the recovery to the point where it's able to get edgeguarded in the first place. Most diddy's don't even aim for the ledge.

You hit diddy off the stage your just sitting there waiting for him to come back because you actually put yourself at the disadvantage when u go after him. Mewtwo Samus Pika etc also have extremely good recoveries as well.

 

[Mr.Random]

What amuses me about some comments we get, and I mean no offense by that, is that people often assume that we don't want their feedback. We release demoes for the key purpose of getting key feedback. There're no need for anyone to feelreticent or even intimidated. We want you to come up to us and tell us if something bothers you. We welcome it.

The second problematic thing that sometimes occur is that with the release of demos, there are sometimes design issues or balance issues that the community will find. We know what the community believes should be fixed, but while we see the game evolve in real time, most poeple only see a static build that doesn't change at all for them until the next release.

Since you know that we're reading the comments, there's a pretty high chance that we know the community's oppinion, but either haven't gotten around tweaking it, or we already have but haven't released a build with the tweak yet.

Nevertheless, the key element to keep in mind is that our demoes exist to get feedback. It's partially why we make them in the first place. Don't be afraid to be brutally honest with us when you meet us.

Preach Vigilante! PREACH!!!!

Fox
Falco
Marth
Sheik
Falcon

>top characters in Melee
>mediocre recoveries

these are the characters you see most being played, so when people say Melee is more exciting to watch than PM, i believe this is why.

you get to watch these characters with great onstage presence combo each other and when sent off stage, they have to truly fight their way back on (with mediocre recoveries that are very susceptible to being edgeguarded) So there never really is any downtime when it comes to action.

Where as being offstage in PM almost feels like taking a breather. The sense of risk and urgency is not always there, which shouldn't be the case when offstage in a platform fighter.

This is actually true. There are some characters like I said that are perfectly balanced in PM. Roy has amazing onstage game but also has a mediocre recovery. Then you have a character like Mario with both amazing on stage game and godlike recovery, dumb.
Edit: And Fireballs lol. MVD got into top 32 in CEO just by spamming these. He said it himself.

 

[Chevy]

This is so wrong. Diddy's recovery is stupid. You can't edgeguard cause it will hit you. You interrupt it you have to worry about barrels. He can recover from the depths of hell. Anyone even moderately familiar with diddy wont time the recovery to the point where it's able to get edgeguarded in the first place. Most diddy's don't even aim for the ledge.

You hit diddy off the stage your just sitting there waiting for him to come back because you actually put yourself at the disadvantage when u go after him.

Remove the random barrels maybe, but his recovery is fine. Any disjointed move will take him out of it and it's easy to react to. And guarding from the stage isn't a bad thing against him. If he's charged it enough to get above the stage, it should be an easy intercept, if he's charged it just enough to get to the ledge, ledgehog.

Mewtwo Samus Pika etc also have extremely good recoveries as well.

That's what I'm saying THE BEST RECOVERY is not even close to true.

 

[Joe73191]

Just because someone has a good or unique recovery or move or playstyle isn't bad. One of the things that will hurt project m in the long run is the constant changing of characters and moves with each new update. It leaves no room or chance for the meta to develop. Melee has changed so much over the years and has never been tweaked or updated. Look at how melee meta has evolved. 2014 melee is a completely different game then 2006 melee was and not a single byte of data in the game has changed.

Just look at how project m has developed since 3.0 was released till now. People are still figuring things out. You know how many times and how many characters have been called OP? Its silly. Yet not many people are taking the time to learning match-ups or learning how to deal with unique stuff. Instead they are taking the lazy way out and asking for nerfs. Newflash in a real game you cant just ask for nerfs. In melee or brawl or sm4sh you cant ask for nerfs you have to adapt to survive. Same should go for PM. PM is way more balanced than melee which has less than 10 viable national winning characters. Yet people cry that this character or that move should be nerfed. I am new to the tourney scene with only 6 PM tourneys and 7 melee tourneys under my belt. I was at SKTAR 3, MLG, and CEO, and I have yet to ever win a tournament set, but I want to learn and improve based on my abilities not based on nerfs. Nerfing is a cop out and asking for nerfs is basically saying "I don't want to learn how to beat this so remove it."

I don't want to win that way. PM is great because they can gives new fun content like turbo mode or all star versus, but when it gets to the point where no one knows from one event to the next if their character will be changed or play differently come the next patch that is a bad thing.

 

[Raijinken]

Just because someone has a good or unique recovery or move or playstyle isn't bad. One of the things that will hurt project m in the long run is the constant changing of characters and moves with each new update. It leaves no room or chance for the meta to develop. Melee has changed so much over the years and has never been tweaked or updated. Look at how melee meta has evolved. 2014 melee is a completely different game then 2006 melee was and not a single byte of data in the game has changed.

While it definitely can cause confusion in a playerbase to have updates like this, I think it's worth pointing out that a ton of PC games rely on that sort of frequent patching to maintain balance. The good react and adapt, the rest may just give up. Part of what I prefer about Project M is that if anything seems broken, then there's a chance it'll be fixed in the future, and for now I can just learn to play against it. The meta can change without patches, that's true, but it takes far longer (years, as we've seen) for something to become apparently good or apparently bad if you leave it to a playerbase alone. Being able to tweak things to a supposed level of equality keeps things fresh. Plus, after all these years, nothing has moved Fox and Falco off of the top of Melee.

 

[Bleck]

2014 melee is a completely different game then 2006 melee was

incredulous reaction.gif

 

[Chesstiger2612]

What amuses me about some comments we get, and I mean no offense by that, is that people often assume that we don't want their feedback. We release demoes for the key purpose of getting key feedback. There're no need for anyone to feelreticent or even intimidated. We want you to come up to us and tell us if something bothers you. We welcome it.

The second problematic thing that sometimes occur is that with the release of demos, there are sometimes design issues or balance issues that the community will find. We know what the community believes should be fixed, but while we see the game evolve in real time, most poeple only see a static build that doesn't change at all for them until the next release.

Since you know that we're reading the comments, there's a pretty high chance that we know the community's oppinion, but either haven't gotten around tweaking it, or we already have but haven't released a build with the tweak yet.

Nevertheless, the key element to keep in mind is that our demoes exist to get feedback. It's partially why we make them in the first place. Don't be afraid to be brutally honest with us when you meet us.

I just wanted to say, it is a gigantic project and you did not have that much time yet and I think no one would have done it better than the PMBR up to that point. All posters always mention what they would like to see and almost forget how much fun they have with the current result.