PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Alexander Duprey]

If you have enough time and need to go all the way across the stage, doing a Phantasm an inch off the ground is actually the fastest way to cover ground. Other than that, get in the habit of initiating your movement with a WD instead of a dash, and make sure your WDs are as crispy as possible (crispy meaning frame perfect on the airdodge and at the most shallow angle possible).

Do you have a Gif/video of a frame perfect/perfect angle WD and/or WL, I want to see the distance in comparison to my WD

 

[Zotto]

Hey I am having trouble with my ledgehop double lasers. I input down double laser than forward, but for some reason they always come at different heights, unlike what I see many pro falco's do? Any advice is appreciated. Thanks!

 

[Jackson]

The bulk of my movement is surf wavedashing.

 

[Bones0]

Would dash-immediate WD be faster?

I'm honestly not sure about which one is actually faster, but the thing with WDing first is that dash is more flexible in when you end it. If you dash-WD, you are committed to the WD during your jumpsquat and landing lag (15 frames). If you dash after instead, you can end the dash at varying distances and interrupt it with many more options (shield, jump, dash attack, and run). The other thing I like about WDing first (though this isn't related to covering ground quickly), is that the opponent can't really tell you have started your WD right away like they can if you dash. Even if they somehow noticed you in jumpsquat, they don't know for sure you are WDing towards them. This basically means that if someone is barely able to react to you doing dash-WD towards them, they won't be able to react to WD-dash.

Do you have a Gif/video of a frame perfect/perfect angle WD and/or WL, I want to see the distance in comparison to my WD

You should just practice WDing yourself and see how far you can get. Roll to either edge of the top plat on BF and see how far you can WD. Rolling to the edge also makes sure you are doing frame perfect airdodges because if you are a little slow, you won't land on the ground. Or at least that's how it is if you roll to the edge, but I'd guess that platforms do the same thing.

Hey I am having trouble with my ledgehop double lasers. I input down double laser than forward, but for some reason they always come at different heights, unlike what I see many pro falco's do? Any advice is appreciated. Thanks!

The only thing that affects the relative heights of your lasers is how fast you press B after Y (assuming you are shooting as fast as possible, which is pretty easy because the second laser will buffer if you press it early). You don't even need to practice this on a ledge. Just run off/drop through a platform and DJ double laser. If they aren't even, you are pressing B too slowly.

 

[tschafer64]

How can I use the 20xx hack pack to make the name entry glitch (making it just me playing), or do I need to do the name entry glitch?

Simply press up on the d-pad on the character select screen to go straight to the stage select screen. Like with the name entry glitch make sure the mode is time or bonus or coin

 

[Alexander Duprey]

I'm honestly not sure about which one is actually faster, but the thing with WDing first is that dash is more flexible in when you end it. If you dash-WD, you are committed to the WD during your jumpsquat and landing lag (15 frames). If you dash after instead, you can end the dash at varying distances and interrupt it with many more options (shield, jump, dash attack, and run). The other thing I like about WDing first (though this isn't related to covering ground quickly), is that the opponent can't really tell you have started your WD right away like they can if you dash. Even if they somehow noticed you in jumpsquat, they don't know for sure you are WDing towards them. This basically means that if someone is barely able to react to you doing dash-WD towards them, they won't be able to react to WD-dash.


You should just practice WDing yourself and see how far you can get. Roll to either edge of the top plat on BF and see how far you can WD. Rolling to the edge also makes sure you are doing frame perfect airdodges because if you are a little slow, you won't land on the ground. Or at least that's how it is if you roll to the edge, but I'd guess that platforms do the same thing.


The only thing that affects the relative heights of your lasers is how fast you press B after Y (assuming you are shooting as fast as possible, which is pretty easy because the second laser will buffer if you press it early). You don't even need to practice this on a ledge. Just run off/drop through a platform and DJ double laser. If they aren't even, you are pressing B too slowly.

I mean I'll do that, but I'm wondering if you know where I can see a perfect WD/WL with falco.

 

[Binx]

Thanks Bones im finally getting the hang of falco combos, been playing the game forever but I switched from ICs to fox about a year ago but havent been to many tournaments and decided to switch to falco since I think my playstyle is better suited by him. He has a lot more frame traps and a little more range that I like to take advantage of. Also he has a lot of leeway in his combo game vs some characters so its nice to be able to mess up sometimes and still get a solid punish. Obviously perfection is the goal but its very helpful when you first start a new character to not get owned all the time haha.

I've been practicing with the third best person on our PR for a while and I think im ready to start going back to tournaments since my school work is finally letting up. Gonna show off this new bird.

 

[Bones0]

I mean I'll do that, but I'm wondering if you know where I can see a perfect WD/WL with falco.

No, unfortunately I don't. It's pretty impossible to tell the difference between a perfect WD and a WD that is .2 degrees off of a perfect angle though, so I doubt you would gain much from seeing it.

 

[noobird]

dj waveland or fh waveland on low platforms?

 

[Jackson]

dj waveland or fh waveland on low platforms?

I'm wondering the same thing. DJ is harder to pull off but seems faster. Of course you can't really do it if you want to do shine waveland.

 

[xman]

Actually dj wl is easier than fh wl. When falco spins during his dj his "landing box?" (I don't know what to call it) changes and allows for you to waveland at a bigger window than a full hop wl. It seems faster because it is. Just becareful not to get hit off stage out of your dj cause then you're screwed. Sometimes you need the extra frames and its better to dj wl.

 

[Jackson]

How do I get a strong Dair and how do I get a weak Dair?

 

[Bones0]

How do I get a strong Dair and how do I get a weak Dair?

It's a sex kick, which means it's strongest at the beginning of the animation and weakens towards the end. Nair and bair are the same way with the exception that bair's front hitbox is significantly weaker overall (though I'm pretty sure it still decreases in strength the same way).

 

[Jackson]

It's a sex kick, which means it's strongest at the beginning of the animation and weakens towards the end. Nair and bair are the same way with the exception that bair's front hitbox is significantly weaker overall (though I'm pretty sure it still decreases in strength the same way).

Ok. So to effectively pillar marth I want to shine, double jump and Dair him when falco is basically already touching him.

 

[Bones0]

Ok. So to effectively pillar marth I want to shine, double jump and Dair him when falco is basically already touching him.

How hard you want to dair can vary by percent, but usually you want to wait as long as possible between the shine and dair so that you are already FFing back down by the time the dair hits. Otherwise, Marth may end up landing before you and escaping the combo.

 

[Jackson]

How hard you want to dair can vary by percent, but usually you want to wait as long as possible between the shine and dair so that you are already FFing back down by the time the dair hits. Otherwise, Marth may end up landing before you and escaping the combo.

Yeah, I've had some problems where he's out of hitstun before i can shine him again after one shine to dair.

 

[Twilight Emblem]

Edit- Original post was sharing an issue I came up with while training but I just figured out what caused it.

If any meaningful advice has been posted in this thread that isn't yet on the front page I wonder if any kind soul would be willing to go through this thread page by page and create perhaps a pastebin or something of all the extra helpful info thats been posted here and categorize the information etc.

That way every single bit of good information thats been posted here would be available in a single link and nobody would have to shift through hundreds of pages of responses for information on getting better with falco.

 

[SpiderMad]

Edit- Original post was sharing an issue I came up with while training but I just figured out what caused it.

What the? You had a huge post what happened to it? Anyways you were talking about "the mode" http://smashboards.com/threads/i-cant-find-whats-so-good-about-melee.310174/page-4#post-13753967
where you play awesome with Falco. I too live to get into this mode, but it seems to be less drastic of a change and happen less as I get better already or something.

Also I find it lame how the thread by Mogwai and Drpeepee is missing a Peach segment. @ Dr Peepee Where's the best peach and Luigi write up you have? You should make one in a EvilGenuis/MIOM post after you beat Armada at Apex. I called you winning the last one. Also I want to someday give you the signature challenge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=256GP99HYLA

 

[Twilight Emblem]

I strongly encourage Dr Peepee to post as much information as he can on getting better with falco no matter how abstract or long winded it sounds. :3. <3 your wall posts dr pp. ]. Pls make wall of china text post sometime soon


Hey SpiderMad
I think what happened was I just started obsessing about getting it "right" in this negative perfectionist way with negative emotional consequences on messing up and that made me over focus with a tense attitude and play worse. I actually started getting back into that relaxed consistent state later today once I calmed down and just started having fun again. Its not quite where I was in that zen like mode I talked about but I can tell I was going in the right direction because stuff started to feel easier and the timing got much better.

I'm really starting to feel like taking this game personally when you mess up is like a death sentence for performance because I always drop in performance so hard when I care that I missed something. To me its so much better to just let a mistake slide without any emotional consequence and just keep your head up and the attitude good and expect to start doing well.

Oh btw your links broken up there, I can't get to that page

 

[Binx]

Yeah its nice to see good players post their thought process even if its kinda thin or convoluted. I think thats something Wobbles did really well on the ICs boards when he was active there

 

[rnv]

This has probably been asked quite a few times but the first page of Google isn't showing any results SO
what are the inputs for the insane side B ledge stall as falco? where you just let go of ledge and side B back on.
I've been using C stick away from ledge + side B into ledge, but I'm always just under where I need to be. Do I just need to input faster, or is there a more efficient way to input the same thing?

 

[Stalled]

^Do you have a video or a gif of it?

 

[Bones0]

This has probably been asked quite a few times but the first page of Google isn't showing any results SO
what are the inputs for the insane side B ledge stall as falco? where you just let go of ledge and side B back on.
I've been using C stick away from ledge + side B into ledge, but I'm always just under where I need to be. Do I just need to input faster, or is there a more efficient way to input the same thing?

It's just raw speed. You can test with pausing. Pause as soon as you let go of the ledge, input the Phantasm, then unpause. Firestalling is better in pretty much every way though. I'm pretty sure the side-B stalls with spacies always leaves a minimum of 1 frame of vulnerability.

 

[tauKhan]

I'm pretty sure the side-B stalls with spacies always leaves a minimum of 1 frame of vulnerability.

Don't you ever read your own threads ? From the falco frame data thread about phantasm:

Can grab edge as early as 25

Since the DSR is 29 frames and allows full invincibility, thus you can do invincible side b stall. I agree that the up b stalls are probably easier and more consistent though, so there is no reason to do side b stall.

 

[Bones0]

Don't you ever read your own threads ? From the falco frame data thread about phantasm:

Since the DSR is 29 frames and allows full invincibility, thus you can do invincible side b stall. I agree that the up b stalls are probably easier and more consistent though, so there is no reason to do side b stall.

Hmm, that's interesting. If that window is enough to get a 1 or 2 frame DJ, that would make it even easier. I'm gonna have to try this next time I play on 20xx and see if I can keep full intangibility with any sort of consistency. I'll also try to figure out how quick you have to be on the side-B with no jump, but if anyone else can test it (I'm just going to use pause) that'd be nice.

 

[The Coach]

Hi, quick question here. So i've been playing against my friend a ton (he play's shiek) and recently against him I have noticed that he will shield whenever I approach him with nair or dair, even bair, and grab me before i can get my shine off. Am I not fastfalling after I hit the shield quick enough? Or is it generally impossible to approach shiek with those options if the shiek is shielding?

 

[Boomhound]

Hi, quick question here.
........
Or is it generally impossible to approach shiek with those options if the shiek is shielding?

If I recall correctly no shield pressure is 100% safe, but if executed well the odds are in your favor.
You need to use your aerial later/closer to landing and then shine to minimize your chances of getting grabbed- this way you give him a smaller window of opportunity to grab you by adding shield-stun where it matters.
(A late landing laser to grab works the same)

You can also *tomahawk if you've conditioned him to this scenario.
*empty jump to grab.

 

[pkblaze]

What's the frame data of like, laser hitstun/shieldstun and stuff?

 

[Boomhound]

What's the frame data of like, laser hitstun/shieldstun and stuff?

I was curious so I took a look but couldn't find an immediate answer- might be commented on deep in Bones' frame data thread.

However I remember reading somewhere that damage determines shield stun-
so by that logic if Falco's shine does 8% and causes 5 frames of shield stun, each % of damage causes 0.625 frames of shield stun, making a laser deal 1.875 frames of stun without staling..

This is quite a lot of speculation though on my part so don't quote me on it

 

[pkblaze]

won't the hitlag of the laser also contribute to "shieldstun"?

 

[Boomhound]

Falco doesn't receive hitlag from connecting his lasers, I'd assume this applies to other projectiles also.

 

[Bones0]

Hi, quick question here. So i've been playing against my friend a ton (he play's shiek) and recently against him I have noticed that he will shield whenever I approach him with nair or dair, even bair, and grab me before i can get my shine off. Am I not fastfalling after I hit the shield quick enough? Or is it generally impossible to approach shiek with those options if the shiek is shielding?

http://smashboards.com/threads/falco-discussion-thread.256826/page-536
http://smashboards.com/threads/falco-discussion-thread.256826/page-545#post-17480553

If I recall correctly no shield pressure is 100% safe, but if executed well the odds are in your favor.
You need to use your aerial later/closer to landing and then shine to minimize your chances of getting grabbed- this way you give him a smaller window of opportunity to grab you by adding shield-stun where it matters.
(A late landing laser to grab works the same)

You can also *tomahawk if you've conditioned him to this scenario.
*empty jump to grab.

There is shield pressure that is 100% safe, but it never exceeds a single cycle of aerial-shine-aerial and is character dependent. Doing a late aerial, shine, early aerial fadeaway is safe from just about everything though.

I was curious so I took a look but couldn't find an immediate answer- might be commented on deep in Bones' frame data thread.

However I remember reading somewhere that damage determines shield stun-
so by that logic if Falco's shine does 8% and causes 5 frames of shield stun, each % of damage causes 0.625 frames of shield stun, making a laser deal 1.875 frames of stun without staling..

This is quite a lot of speculation though on my part so don't quote me on it

http://smashboards.com/threads/frame-advantage-on-block.309694/

Laser has hitlag for the defender, but not for Falco himself so it adds frame advantage the same way shield stun does. Lasers deal 4 frames of hitlag to the defender and 3 frames of shield stun (fresh). You have 4 frames of landing lag when you empty hop or AC, which is how you land from lasers. If your laser hits on the same frame you land (not always the case; idk how feasible this is), it will look like this:

Frame -- Falco -- Opponent
1 -- Landing lag -- Hitlag
2 -- Landing lag -- Hitlag
3 -- Landing lag -- Hitlag
4 -- Landing lag -- Hitlag
5 -- Free to act -- Shield stun
6 -- Free to act -- Shield stun
7 -- Free to act -- Shield stun
8 -- Free to act -- Free to act

As far as utility of this knowledge goes in practice, you only really have to know that you have an extremely small frame advantage. It's enough that you can beat their OoS option if you know what they are doing, but if they choose a faster option than you (Fox shine OoS vs. laser-grab), you'll probably lose. It's close enough that execution is going to matter way more than what actually wins, especially with lasers staling down to 2% fairly often (results in 1 less frame of shield stun). Even getting shield grabbed out of lasers is common because you usually do not land directly on top of them with lasers. If you try to laser and run, JC grab really quickly, they CAN grab you. Laser-shine is usually the only thing that will catch dodges.

 

[Jackson]

I've still having difficulty comboing marth. What are our main (guaranteed?) combos on him at low, mid, and high percents? How should I execute these combos?

 

[Bones0]

I've still having difficulty comboing marth. What are our main (guaranteed?) combos on him at low, mid, and high percents? How should I execute these combos?

Melee's combo system is too dynamic to simply pick a combo and execute it. You have to construct your combo based on your positioning, the stage, the opponent's character, DI, percent, etc. If you start with the basic pillar combo, that should be more than enough to get the ball rolling. If you drop a combo, ask yourself if you could have done it differently to achieve a better result or if using a different move to continue the combo would have yielded more damage/better stage positioning.

 

[Boomhound]

I've still having difficulty comboing marth. What are our main (guaranteed?) combos on him at low, mid, and high percents? How should I execute these combos?

Depending on their DI you can Shine->Dair->tech-chase Fsmash. It's basic stuff but very effective. But yeah, generally a combo you've rehearsed rarely gets to see the light of day.
Doesn't mean it's a waste though, coming up with combos in practice mode can help you prepare for potential opportunities in game so long as you're ready to follow DI and tech habits.

 

[Jackson]

Alright, those are good answers. When I think of comboing him at low percents I think of the pillar combos. The reason I can only seem to get one shine to dair might be because I'm either not fast falling or dairing too early.

 

[Twilight Emblem]

Edit- Nevermind. Figured out what i'm going to do.
Jackson do you have a partner to train with who can DI well or have any method of trying to chase good DI? The problem with combos in training mode I find is that the computers bad DI is different from chasing a player that can DI so transitioning to hitting a human from a computer is hard.

How much time per day are you putting into trying to learn to pillar with falco? If you haven't yet I would try to shoot for a goal of combined 30 min to an hour if thats comfortable on pillaring.

 

[Jackson]

Edit- Nevermind. Figured out what i'm going to do.
Jackson do you have a partner to train with who can DI well or have any method of trying to chase good DI? The problem with combos in training mode I find is that the computers bad DI is different from chasing a player that can DI so transitioning to hitting a human from a computer is hard.

How much time per day are you putting into trying to learn to pillar with falco? If you haven't yet I would try to shoot for a goal of combined 30 min to an hour if thats comfortable on pillaring.

I play with my buddies a lot, who are similar skill level and decent players. I'm NOT sure if they have good DI though. You might be right about the computers messing up my comboing.

I seem to combo Fox fine with waveshine to dair for a long time, but not Marth; I never have extended combos on him.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Also I find it lame how the thread by Mogwai and Drpeepee is missing a Peach segment. @ Dr Peepee Where's the best peach and Luigi write up you have? You should make one in a EvilGenuis/MIOM post after you beat Armada at Apex. I called you winning the last one. Also I want to someday give you the signature challenge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=256GP99HYLA

I really wish I had finished this =p Oh well I'm sure I'll be doing longer matchup guides as incentives for my stream haha.

I think I need to do a bit more work on Peach so I don't want to give too much misinformation. I will say that if she's floating you need to FH and/or take to the platforms so you can shoot her as you fall back down. The ideal position for Falco is close to Peach(anyone really) on the ground after hitting them with a laser. So always try to shoot/fight her when she's grounded and avoid it more when she's airborne. Of course you can fudge this a bit and Bair/utilt Peach floating and attacking in(especially with non-Fair moves) but what I said before that is more of the overall rule.
Outside of that, watch your low % CC'able options like jab and Nair. Shine grab fairly often to discourage shield, it's pretty safe and she struggles when Falco's below her(work your Utilt/Bair when she's high up.)

Vs Luigi, he likes playing on the ground, which is a shame because Falco controls that amazingly lol. If you use primarily lasers, Dair, then Bair in that order of importance you will shut down Luigi. Don't rush him, that's how he can trade with or beat you. Too many Falcos rush now. Life is more than a giant Falco ditto lol. You don't even have to grab by the way vs Luigi, since he can't do anything if you shoot or space moves on his shield(same problem as most mid or lower tiered characters have vs Falco.) Luigi can't really WD if you have a laser out or react with Dair if you're close(back up if you're farther and don't have a laser out for some reason....this is where Bair comes in. Lasers will work again here usually.) When you put him off the stage, just do timed SH Dairs in case he misfires because that'll beat it. Otherwise grab the edge to keep him from grabbing it with his DJ(mix with Dsmash/Dair on stage if he tries to jump and attack super early). (Re)grab it just before he up-Bs or down-Bs so you can either chill there or Dair him depending on if he down B'd or not. If up-B hits you then you can act immediately and just DJ spike him by the way, so there's no reason to worry about his up-B pretty much ever.
Only other thing to say is Luigi might use platforms to avoid ground control, but it's really easy to cover the one space Luigi can attack off of from it(other platform edge since his air mobility is low) so you can plant Bairs/Utilts there.
DI his Uthrow I think behind him and his Dthrow in front of him to get away from followups.

Hope this helps!

 

[Bones0]

I really wish I had finished this =p Oh well I'm sure I'll be doing longer matchup guides as incentives for my stream haha.

I think I need to do a bit more work on Peach so I don't want to give too much misinformation. I will say that if she's floating you need to FH and/or take to the platforms so you can shoot her as you fall back down. The ideal position for Falco is close to Peach(anyone really) on the ground after hitting them with a laser. So always try to shoot/fight her when she's grounded and avoid it more when she's airborne. Of course you can fudge this a bit and Bair/utilt Peach floating and attacking in(especially with non-Fair moves) but what I said before that is more of the overall rule.
Outside of that, watch your low % CC'able options like jab and Nair. Shine grab fairly often to discourage shield, it's pretty safe and she struggles when Falco's below her(work your Utilt/Bair when she's high up.)

Vs Luigi, he likes playing on the ground, which is a shame because Falco controls that amazingly lol. If you use primarily lasers, Dair, then Bair in that order of importance you will shut down Luigi. Don't rush him, that's how he can trade with or beat you. Too many Falcos rush now. Life is more than a giant Falco ditto lol. You don't even have to grab by the way vs Luigi, since he can't do anything if you shoot or space moves on his shield(same problem as most mid or lower tiered characters have vs Falco.) Luigi can't really WD if you have a laser out or react with Dair if you're close(back up if you're farther and don't have a laser out for some reason....this is where Bair comes in. Lasers will work again here usually.) When you put him off the stage, just do timed SH Dairs in case he misfires because that'll beat it. Otherwise grab the edge to keep him from grabbing it with his DJ(mix with Dsmash/Dair on stage if he tries to jump and attack super early). (Re)grab it just before he up-Bs or down-Bs so you can either chill there or Dair him depending on if he down B'd or not. If up-B hits you then you can act immediately and just DJ spike him by the way, so there's no reason to worry about his up-B pretty much ever.
Only other thing to say is Luigi might use platforms to avoid ground control, but it's really easy to cover the one space Luigi can attack off of from it(other platform edge since his air mobility is low) so you can plant Bairs/Utilts there.
DI his Uthrow I think behind him and his Dthrow in front of him to get away from followups.

Hope this helps!

Minor correction: you should DI behind Luigi for both uthrow and dthrow. DIing in front for either allows for an easy followup while DIing behind forces him to tech chase you. Even when Luigi has his back to the ledge and he grabs, DIing in on his dthrow leads to dropzone aerials.

When you grab Peach, Samus, and other fatties that can DI out every time, do you just uthrow and wait on the ground and try to punish their descent? Or do you find yourself doing more fthrows just to get them off stage? It's really frustrating getting 5 grabs in a row and getting no damage for it.