PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[ShroudedOne]

Though, generally, for most, it's easier to time 5 frames than 3 frames. That's not why I have a Fox secondary, and not Falco, but I think the fact that Falco's shenanigans are easier than Fox's, and the fact that it's easier to be consistent with Falco, does come into play.

 

[stingers]

I started using edge cancels after a bout of falcon ffas on yoshi's where the winner was determined by number of edgecancels x number of knees x number of SDs x number of kills. They help out your score a lot.
But also your game in general, lol.

so if you dont sd at least once, you auto-lose? =[

 

[Deleted member]

/wishessheikgotframeadvantageforsomething

autocancel fair on shield? idk the frames but it feels like an advantage lol

m2k really only loses to himself. anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't even know the kid.

 

[genkaku]

so if you dont sd at least once, you auto-lose? =[

yeah, lol
most of the game is played off stage because of that, haha

 

[Dr Peepee]

I totally agree about m2k. It's frustrated me as a fanboy for so long.

What do you mean by a solid Marth vs a modern Marth? Examples would be cool.

Okay so the way I try to play Marth is a combination of old and new school. They each have very important characteristics they emphasize individually that hurt them overall but can still take them pretty far. I just try to take the good from both and trim the fat.

Old school realllly likes outspacing things. I played with an older player a couple weeks ago, and he was the best Marth main in NC(he may still be now but that doesn't count for much atm like it did back then lol). He made JAB look like a good move, which totally blew my mind. He didn't even use it much. He would just be putting up really weird walls and then if he saw them come in or he suspected they'd come in he'd throw in a jab. It usually hit. This screwed with Twitch(as I was watching the two of them play) and made him respect Marth that much more than if he(Peter, the Marth) were just DD'ing. I mean all he really did was hit someone with a tippered 2-3% move, but it changes things mentally(wait longer to approach, respect walls more, which means you can go in safely for example), which is a less prominent gameplay element that most don't seem to dabble in anymore(you could also call this mindgames or conditioning sort of if you wanted but I don't think either of those are quite right for this for some reason).

PS, walking is OP. Marth has a fast walk that allows him to still utilize all of his options and big moves while being in control of his character and moving his big hitboxes around(theoretically they're always out which is why we space and yeah Marth's big on threatening....I should write about that). Basically, when you run you have fewer options but the goal is/was probably to give up some for the surprise element of Marth's speed or just the contrast from walking in general.

New school wanted to trim the fat, but they ended up trimming too much I feel. So much DD'ing and running and grabbing that sometimes I think people forget that Marth even has moves like Ftilt lol. Still, the maximized efficiency pushed Marth's game in terms of punishment should he get that first hit. Combos, edgeguards, juggles sort of, technical precision....that type of stuff became huge for Marth and it paid off when M2K was also good at getting that first hit/grab by breaking the game down to a 50/50 or better for him when taking in human factors.


The ideal Marth, the solid Marth as I called it last night apparently, is one that takes the understanding of creative walling(which I suppose I'll explain more of in a sec) and move mixups and threatening with the efficient punishments of the modern metagame. Basically taking a neutral position, winning it in as many ways as realistically possible, and then pushing that advantage as hard as possible. This makes sense when written out but I wonder how many do write it out.....


Creative walling is something of a dead art almost. I'm still not very good at it but I understand its importance. When people complained of Marth's range, it was because Marth's were Fair'ing on reaction or threatening with them with empty SHs, or were beating their low moves/shields with Nair, or were cut off on the ground by jab/ftilt/dtilts, or tried to space anything and ate an Fsmash. Then when they shielded they would get grabbed, OR Marth would sit there(threatening). That's off the point of creative walling though. Walling is all mixups, but ground moves chained together or aerial threatens/moves to ground moves or to movement to ground/aerial moves gets pretty complicated and effective if you do it right. Nair(covers some aerials and approaches) to walk forward dtilt(to cover DD'ing closer or grounded approaches) to WD back jab(to cover lag punishment/going high for the dtilt) to double empty hop to SHFF Fair to start new conditioning/re-establish the threat of Marth's moves. I have never done the sequence of things I just suggested in that order but I would have no problem backing it assuming your opponent is reading and not just looking for a couple things to charge at over and over. The moves you use can be seen as less important than understanding what moves come after that, if that makes sense.

The way I look at walling is like this. If someone has a typical approach, figure it out and stop it. You can play your own way until you figure it out and stop it. From then on, you must recognize whether the opponent will come at you harder if you keep blocking their approaches in hopes to catch you spacing for typical moves or they wait longer to try to get you to overcommit and punish your lag(2nd is much more common these days I'm pretty sure). When I played Chillin, I would be caught offguard by how often Chillin would just rush me even when I sat back and countered his "normal" or typical approaches. I would counter them or act as if I was and then take space so it gets easier all the time. That's how I play. Chillin observed this and began rushing me when I always came in to take space and sometimes a little beforehand and it was very unnerving.



Okay long Marth post over lol. If that's confusing then just ask questions. XD

Though, generally, for most, it's easier to time 5 frames than 3 frames. That's not why I have a Fox secondary, and not Falco, but I think the fact that Falco's shenanigans are easier than Fox's, and the fact that it's easier to be consistent with Falco, does come into play.

Fox gets a 2 frame faster jump squat? Nice he can do moves faster and cover more options!

Wish people thought of that in a good way instead of inherently negative all of the time, but that's a pet peeve of mine and I'm fairly guilty of it too.....

To respond to your actual intent, I think that both characters are VERY demanding technically and require somewhat different skillsets of technical endurance(like Fox DD'ing vs Falco laser'ing, as one of many examples) so comparing their ease of use in terms of wear and tear on the player of said character doesn't accomplish much. The general consensus is Falco is easier to use but I'm not really going along with it, simply because Fox gets some easier situations/followups than Falco which pay off for all the (possibly extra) work Fox may have to execute in order to get the hit in the first place.


They both **** lol.

 

[Mogwai]

autocancel fair on shield? idk the frames but it feels like an advantage lol

m2k really only loses to himself. anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't even know the kid.

is it meat riding. the best player to respect in this game is yourself and if you're learning from someone else all the time, you're just a worse version of that player and you're never going to "beat them".

if you respect PP, take it out of your mouth cause he'll be nice to you as a person but you'll never be a threat to him in the brackets by doing that ****.

edit: kevin you should stop meat riding mango because you're just going to mentally put yourself under mango even if you're not. "looking up" to someone just lets them look down on you.

gotta love Mow posts.

Tri-state.

Wtf is a janky character with no options? Sheik? Puff? Captain Falcon? I don't know where that list starts but it'd have to be lower than Falcon AT LEAST because those characters are GREAT. Every character has it hard at top level. Spacies get to dictate a lot of the pace but they don't own it. They get gimped frequently and it's almost as bad as with like Falcon or Ganon, though obviously not quite as much.

You have to be good to get a read. All it takes is one read and one correct tech skill sequence and you've got a spacie in a death combo. Just because they're not mashing their face in their controller and winning every tournament because that's what more Melee players like doesn't mean those characters are THAT much worse than spacies, if at all. Maybe it means they're more developed because they're more popular. Maybe it means players aren't consistent enough with evening out the punishment game vs spacies so it appears worse to observers. We just had a Peach win Genesis 2. Jigglypuff won tournaments for several years. Marth won everything before that. I don't even like the who won stuff argument but even I have to admit it looks pretty bad when I was one of the first Falco mains to win a major(correct me if there was a Falco or even Fox streak before my few wins streak that ended with Genesis 2).

mmm, I probably phrased what I was trying to say incorrectly, but I stand by my point. The amount of options that spacies provide makes it easier to get better with them IMO. Any time I've tried to get better with a non-spacie, I've always felt like when I hit a wall it's the most frustrating thing in the entire world, whereas with a spacie, it's just like, w/e, get faster, try 1 of your other million options. I guess you're reading what I said as other characters are a lot worse than spacies, which is not what I believe, but rather, I think that spacies are easier to get better with. That might just be due to my own playstyle or how my brain deals with problem solving though.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Ooooh Mogwai~

 

[Dr Peepee]

Oh....well then I guess I didn't understand that based on your posts. Cool lol now I know. =p

Edit: If you'd like we could discuss improving with spacies vs non-spacies and maybe work it out so that could be understood easier.

 

[Lightsyde]

Most interesting write up I've ever seen comparing Old School vs New School Marth tactics. Makes me want to go home and mess with (more) walling tricks.

Kevin: Do you remember that old match of Mango's Puff vs M2K's Marth on DL that was 7:30 minutes long? Does that best demonstrate the dynamics of the walling style you're talking about or do you mean more Azen/Ken-esque stuff?

 

[Mogwai]

Oh....well then I guess I didn't understand that based on your posts. Cool lol now I know. =p

Edit: If you'd like we could discuss improving with spacies vs non-spacies and maybe work it out so that could be understood easier.

eh, I don't really have the time for Melee anymore, so I'm content just being able to play a half-decent Falco .

I just find that like, hmmm... like, with Marth/Sheik when fighting a Falco or something, getting ***** for going into your shield is very frustrating, but the whole answer to it is like, learn to powershiled and position perfectly so that you never end up in shield or to use shield DI appropriately, which is very difficult IMO, but that might just be my unfamiliarity with it. Whereas as Fox/Falco, you actually have the tools to fight out of your shield with like Shine OoS or ridiculously fast Usmashes OoS. This is just a small example, but it just sort of exemplifies why I find improving with spacies easier. You can sorta solve any situation from that situation without having to backtrack 2 seconds in the past to fix the present, if that makes any sense.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Most interesting write up I've ever seen comparing Old School vs New School Marth tactics. Makes me want to go home and mess with (more) walling tricks.

Kevin: Do you remember that old match of Mango's Puff vs M2K's Marth on DL that was 7:30 minutes long? Does that best demonstrate the dynamics of the walling style you're talking about or do you mean more Azen/Ken-esque stuff?

Okay I just watched about half of that match to be sure I was right, but yeah definitely more Azen/Ken type stuff.

In that match, M2K only did what he had to do to wall. He has a comfort zone he refuses to go outside of in most matchups(which for him is a lot smaller than everyone else's). In this case, doing Fair walls to Nair to Ftilt and sometimes doing a double Fair is not much of a creative wall, which is what I think a big part of fighting Jiggz is about to be perfectly honest. He played with the most efficient or easiest to control wall, but that does NOT make it the best wall. That just makes it easy to avoid.

Now, you could argue that he kept stage control so Mango would have to approach eventually, but he got flustered since his wall wasn't really doing anything and approached a lot, and Mango also started getting around his wall as well. Plus, since he wasn't really moving, his WDs to approach all got sniped for the most part since reacting to them was much easier since M2K wasn't moving around as much.

Not necessarily a bad strategy, as I think most can be good anyway, but I don't think M2K's variation of it was ideal for fighting Puff.



Edit: @Mogwai: Twitch asked to play smash I'll get back to you lol.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Mmm, I agree that there are situations that Fox has much easier than Falco. But wear and tear on the player does factor into how difficult a character is to use, doesn't it? Though I guess I'm kinda biased, cause when I was learning Fox, my thumbs would ache afterwards (they don't anymore), and I still have trouble with his shorthop. Falco's tech skill on the other hand, I find generally easier to perform (I say generally, cause wavedashing/waveshining is more difficult with him, I feel).

With regards to creative walling, what you were describing reminded me of M2K's Marth vs Mango's Puff at SCC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1pT_56wWyM

I believe M2K starts doing it at 0:12. Is this what you mean by creative walling, or no?

EDIT: Oh, someone posted about M2K from that tourney already. Whoops.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Knowing what the space animal is trying to do when they're pressuring empowers a lot of stuff. And allows for tons of nonsensical OOS options.

 

[DoH]

Usually whenever the shine clanks with a downsmash after a powershield I feel like I didn't do it fast enough. I'd like to do some testing with it at some point with all the various mixups and variations as par as height, fast falling, and move choice.

 

[leffen]

Its not fast enough if they do it correctly, 6frame startup is just 1 frame faster.

 

[DoH]

The downsmash or the shine?

 

[ArcNatural]

Most interesting write up I've ever seen comparing Old School vs New School Marth tactics. Makes me want to go home and mess with (more) walling tricks.

Kevin: Do you remember that old match of Mango's Puff vs M2K's Marth on DL that was 7:30 minutes long? Does that best demonstrate the dynamics of the walling style you're talking about or do you mean more Azen/Ken-esque stuff?

Definitely watch Ken vs Mango (I think at Evo worlds?) to have a better understanding of walling in the way that PP is describing it. Ken constantly mixes up his wall and throws out things that would barely hit. And if they didn't hit and Mango tried to go in and counter he would grab him.

M2k doesn't really emphasize the ground style of Marth that much which I think is one of the failings of new Marths because Marth's moves out of walk are ridiculous.

 

[Dr Peepee]

eh, I don't really have the time for Melee anymore, so I'm content just being able to play a half-decent Falco .

I just find that like, hmmm... like, with Marth/Sheik when fighting a Falco or something, getting ***** for going into your shield is very frustrating, but the whole answer to it is like, learn to powershiled and position perfectly so that you never end up in shield or to use shield DI appropriately, which is very difficult IMO, but that might just be my unfamiliarity with it. Whereas as Fox/Falco, you actually have the tools to fight out of your shield with like Shine OoS or ridiculously fast Usmashes OoS. This is just a small example, but it just sort of exemplifies why I find improving with spacies easier. You can sorta solve any situation from that situation without having to backtrack 2 seconds in the past to fix the present, if that makes any sense.

Yeah I understand what you're saying.

Marth and Sheik don't get direct counters(aside from Sheik's Nair OOS) to spacie pressure but they get nice big shields which help them with their WD OOS to probable counter(like dash attack with both or dash attack with sheik or Fsmash with Marth....also shield DI aids this technique). Aside from this, shielding is actually a bait I find in people that know how to fight Falco, because they'll shield and then WD out or throw out a move because Falco's know people hate being stuck in their shield vs them. It's that sort of indirect beating of spacie pressure which is the key to fighting it, and I don't believe the challenging options to pressure are so abstract you can't go in not knowing how the spacie plays and learn to adjust your visual cues to what the opponent is doing and get out of pressure if not turn it around fairly consistently when read well. WD OOS, or things like trading lasers for moves or taking a laser and putting a move out afterward or doing moves OOS to stuff laser approaches all seem better with Marth and friends than with spacies vs their own pressure(they get shine OOS so I find it to be a different answer but not necessarily worse), so it just seems to follow that both floaties and FF'ers should be able to have some type of reasonable response for any type of spacie pressure. Shine grab you can't shine OOS and that's becoming a bigger part of the metagame as just one example.

But in general, I feel as though the floatier guys just need to return to trickier ways to play while leaving the techy efficient stuff to spacies because that's the best way to invalidate a ton of the button mashing they get to do.

Mmm, I agree that there are situations that Fox has much easier than Falco. But wear and tear on the player does factor into how difficult a character is to use, doesn't it? Though I guess I'm kinda biased, cause when I was learning Fox, my thumbs would ache afterwards (they don't anymore), and I still have trouble with his shorthop. Falco's tech skill on the other hand, I find generally easier to perform (I say generally, cause wavedashing/waveshining is more difficult with him, I feel).

Well I'd assume that top level players would be capable of playing their character at least as many rounds of tournament that are required to win without losing steam. It requires lots more time investment in tech skill practice usually but that's just a skill that spacies select for, much like Marth players will usually be great at spacing or baiting spotdodges for grabs or something like that.

 

[stingers]

so like...when you play this game, are you supposed to actually think throughout the match? or is it more of a case-by-case thing

 

[S0FT]

Real fast stingers, I actually just read a great book and one of the things discussed was:

Practice -> Perform: Evaluate ----> Analyze ----> Practice.

I think in smash to improve your game and do the stuff peepee is talking about you have to put them in your game during the practice stage. You should already have all that down by the time you are performing. And the only things that should be changing is you adapting to your opponent...

So you should probably think in friendly games and have it all down in tournaments

Sorry my post is rushed

 

[Stevo]

I find sometimes you have to break old habbits in order to improve as well.

like, right now I am working on trying to incorporate rolls into my game (which seems backwards at first glance)

I realized a while back that people actually do pick up on things like you never rolling just like they pick up on it if you roll often, and it makes it so people that play me do not have to guess as much.

 

[Niko45]

It seems like yea ideally you would wall really well with Marth while maximizing punishment, but to what degree is that actually possible? Marth's ability to punish off of, say, a retreat rising fair is not comparable to Marth's ability to punish off of an advancing nair.

You can just retreat fair and then take space/tech chase and look for a grab with some pressure maybe and of course marth is going to punish mid/heavies and fastfallers very hard with grab. But that's kinda been the Marth gameplan for a long time I'd say. I guess you're just saying to mix it up? Between walling and aggressively taking space?

Yea I really like Marth's jab in that way you're talking about.

Marth's shield sucks.

So overall you're saying Marths need to focus on more of a walling style against Falco?

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

PEEPEE

That marth post was great, i really feel like marth is hardly used nowadays, and has insane potential..

luckily when you can explain in words his major advantages, including everything else you went into detail about him, it really helps people understand playing against and as marth.

i know you probably won't, but making more posts like that (non falco advice) would be detrimental in bringing the marth scene back. this could apply to other char's too, but marth would be great.

 

[Battlecow]

ibut making more posts like that (non falco advice) would be detrimental in bringing the marth scene back. this could apply to other char's too, but marth would be great.

What do you have against the "Marth scene"?

 

[Veetaak]

I wish I could play as Sephiroth in smash because then I wouldnt have to think about spacing and **** because that sword hits anyone from anywhere.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

What do you have against the "Marth scene"?

lol not sure if serious question

but uhh, it's the fact that marth as a whole is terribly represented for how good he is.

 

[genkaku]

It seems that the problem with marth is that every marth everywhere only knows what m2k established. m2k showed us options that worked really darn well for him and because marth isn't a spacie with a gazillion things to do any situation it's kind of assumed that those standard m2k options are best.
Watching mango's marth pop up out of nowhere and play nothing like m2k was so refreshing, I actually wanted to play marth again.

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

*zhuuuuuuuuu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skeBZg9Hj9A#t=250s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2r8ldOUI5s#t=59s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsQm-6baAAQ#t=112s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2r8ldOUI5s#t=106s

^--- I've also tried to do similar things to this. It seems like if you dash into a laser, you will have almost no hit stun. I've done similar things to this in other matches, but this is the one time where I got a solid punish for it. Any thoughts?

Anyone wanna help me find more (of me or anyone else)? I know there's gotta be more out there.





I think the next thing people should experiment with is jumping (out of shield), taking a hit (only works on Fox / Falco's dair, maybe weak nair), smash DIing down, and doing a lagless move (at lower %) to beat shield pressure / approaches. My roommate actually does this to me. He'll take a dair, smash DI down / away (?) and shine me before I can even get my dair -> shine to connect. This works on intentionally late AND fast falled dairs. He sometimes gets there up until like 30% (gayyy). Connor told me he's tried float -> sdiD -> dsmash. I've seen m2k do jump -> sdiD -> grab... etc. Floaties especially gain from this because they have such good combos while being relatively uncomboable themselves. I'm sure people have brought this up before, and have thought about it, but nobody has really pushed this strategy very far. Just one more gay thing to think about LOOOL.

Seriously though as time has gone by, it's become so much harder to do running aerials on people. Very rarely do I get actual hits from those. Most of my combo starters are from walkups (run -> stop (with shield) -> jump out of shield -> start pressure), grabs, or surprise platform / shai drop aerials. I miss the days when I could rush down =/

 

[Lightsyde]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skeBZg9Hj9A#t=250s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2r8ldOUI5s#t=59s



Anyone wanna help me find more (of me or anyone else)? I know there's gotta be more out there.

Damnnnnn, that **** was nuts.

 

[Deleted member]

@dr.peepee DOLLAR A MATCH MONEY MATCH FALCON DITTOS APEX IM TIRED OF YOUR ****

 

[Dr Peepee]

LOL wtf did I even

aight let's do it baby. Let's get it recorded again too

 

[strawhats]

@dr.peepee DOLLAR A MATCH MONEY MATCH FALCON DITTOS APEX IM TIRED OF YOUR ****

I'd love to see you Falcon Ditto MM Darkrain if he goes or even Hax.

 

[Druggedfox]

It seems that the problem with marth is that every marth everywhere only knows what m2k established. m2k showed us options that worked really darn well for him and because marth isn't a spacie with a gazillion things to do any situation it's kind of assumed that those standard m2k options are best.
Watching mango's marth pop up out of nowhere and play nothing like m2k was so refreshing, I actually wanted to play marth again.

Everyone says that, but I disagree. None of the current marths actually know how to do half the things m2k does, half as well as he does. People have that perception because lots of people try to copy him, but no one's achieved it yet at all. I think people underestimate the value of what m2k does/has come up with simply because hes not winning anymore. People think they can do all the m2k stuff, but they really can't yet; I'm not saying people should copy him move for move, but the concept that marth players only know how to do what m2k does is completely wrong... seeing as the vast majority can't even approach what he does.

 

[crush]

Everyone says that, but I disagree. None of the current marths actually know how to do half the things m2k does, half as well as he does. People have that perception because lots of people try to copy him, but no one's achieved it yet at all. I think people underestimate the value of what m2k does/has come up with simply because hes not winning anymore. People think they can do all the m2k stuff, but they really can't yet; I'm not saying people should copy him move for move, but the concept that marth players only know how to do what m2k does is completely wrong... seeing as the vast majority can't even approach what he does.

I sort of agree with you .. but can you give some examples?

 

[ShroudedOne]

I agree as well. The few Marth's that there are who've made a splash today aren't really doing the things that M2K did. Like the grab > deaths that M2K would pull off, and his precision with his moves. Even with M2K's Shiek today, we really don't see Shiek making the edge guards that he makes, or the innovative recoveries with her that he utilizes. Sure, his Marth was more of a "wait for you to mess up" Marth, but I think that he has a play style that can't be replicated unless you "see the things" he sees. The opportunities for punishes, the available options... It's kinda difficult to explain.

 

[Deleted member]

LOL wtf did I even

aight let's do it baby. Let's get it recorded again too

salty runbacks all over.

 

[ph00tbag]

Well you can still combo into the kill directly, and sometimes you can combo into a position where you'll almost have it(Falco Dair to Dair to tech chase Fsmash or no tech Dsmash or something similar). A lot of this combo advice is great though.

Oh I don't disagree. But I would rather deemphasize finishers that KO when talking to new players, because you can gain such a huge advantage from a solid combo that it would be a shame to overextend yourself trying to get a KO. A perfect example that breaks my heart every time I see it is C.Falcons going for the dj.Knee after two uairs that have been DI'd hard down and away. They end up flubbing their opponent out of hitstun with no more options but to recover at the same time as their opponent, possibly even losing the race back to the ledge.

Once you know how your combos work, and why, then you'll know the times you can land finishers, and then you can do whatever you want. But until then, I'd rather see players playing solid.

Well data is still used in determining matchups to an extent I believe, or it can be anyway. Frame data is technically all the data we have so yeah it's not good to base things on that alone. The only other data I could assume you're referring to is something like who beats who in actual top player metagame, and yeah that certainly tires me as well(I believe that is a supporting argument not a main argument for who wins a matchup anyway).

That last paragraph tho.....<3

I'd say more than anything that real world performance data can really only inform the discussion by possibly bringing to light effective strategies that aren't readily apparent in the frame data. But yes, frame and hitbox data are really all we have to go on. And that's not really a bad thing as long as you recognize the topic of discussion is abstract.

ye

Word.

 

[tarheeljks]

Everyone says that, but I disagree. None of the current marths actually know how to do half the things m2k does, half as well as he does. People have that perception because lots of people try to copy him, but no one's achieved it yet at all. I think people underestimate the value of what m2k does/has come up with simply because hes not winning anymore. People think they can do all the m2k stuff, but they really can't yet; I'm not saying people should copy him move for move, but the concept that marth players only know how to do what m2k does is completely wrong... seeing as the vast majority can't even approach what he does.

don't have an opinion on the matter really, but i don' think your point and his are mutually exclusive. even though few people may be capable of emulating m2k successfully, it's still possible that the marth community at large only understands marth to the extent that they are able to imitiate him (not claiming this to be the case)

 

[Sinji]

I like to apply M2k's edge grabs with fox and my precision isn't that well. lol. gotta work on it. M2k devised his version of game, the way how he thinks about it e.t.c. I guess I know why they call him the robot.

 

[Niko45]

I think most of the new Marths have a much different style than m2k, and not just because they're inferior players. What Marth players are you guys talking about that are imitating him without understanding him?