Potential update tomorrow

[Luig]

http://qldsmash.com/aeromaths2.html

Wow, that calculator is useful!
I actually now have an estimate of when Link's new dsmash kills now...
But that's beside the point.

 

[Kerthorok]

Wow the 2% is a good point. Imagine if we can true combo into up air at kill percentage. We would truly live in a just world :D

If we do get such a kill option, what should we call it? Since everyone else who has an up throw/down throw into uair has a name for it, lol.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Really want to check this new thing out tonight. If we can find a good way to implement Aerial Fortress off a throw I'd be just swell.

Also remember to look for any passive changes like our Klaw. And Tough Guy of course.

-----

No cheesy names for Up throw kill setups please.

 

[S_B]

If we do get such a kill option, what should we call it? Since everyone else who has an up throw/down throw into uair has a name for it, lol.

I posted some suggestions earlier, but I like "Spin to Win" the most, because Bowser spins, then wins (probably in the form of Uairing the opponent into oblivion).

...Unless someone can think up something better which I'm open to, of course.

Bowser doesn't have a meme centered around him like "expand dong", so I can't really think of any two-part term we could use.

The "Muah-haha"? I dunno...

 

[Cassius.]

We could call it the Kidnap because that's what Bowser actually does.

Or we could call it the Shell Shock since that didn't really take off with the DAir tech we found last year, and UThrow is technically a shell spin into death

Pick one, or tell me that they're both trash.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

They just updated:

• Endframe 68 -> 61?

The Spin to Win is REAL, folks...

...groovy. FAF for throws IS in the game data, so it's hard for me to have any reasonable doubt here.

"Spin to win" sounds kind of memey, but assuming air Fortress is a followup (8 frame jumpsquat plus 6 frame move) then it's the winner.

 

[S_B]

"Spin to win" sounds kind of memey, but assuming air Fortress is a followup (8 frame jumpsquat plus 6 frame move) then it's the winner.

So is "Ding dong" after the "expand dong" meme, though.

Cassius and I have both suggested "shell shock" now, but I just don't know if that fits the action of one attack with a follow up that's the pattern of Hoo-haas...

ROB has the "beep-boop", Robin has the "Check-Mate", DK has the "Ding-dong", etc...

The Uthrow is the Spin, the Uair followup to KO is the WIN.

Again, is there anything else in Bowser's backstory we can use for this?

 

[MagiusNecros]

We could call it the Kidnap because that's what Bowser actually does.

Or we could call it the Shell Shock since that didn't really take off with the DAir tech we found last year, and UThrow is technically a shell spin into death

Pick one, or tell me that they're both trash.

Koopa Karnage obviously. Shell Shock sounds good though.

 

[Luig]

Just replace the to with a -.

Spin-win.

 

[Big Sean]

How is the endframe decrease that good? Won't they still have just as much hitstun as if we threw them later?

 

[pitfall356]

Let's not get all memey like this. This is really bad.

Let's instead celebrate our obvious new placement as toppest of tiers.

 

[Luig]

How is the endframe decrease that good? Won't they still have just as much hitstun as if we threw them later?

It didn't say anything about throwing them earlier, so I'd guess there's less endlag after you throw them, which helps tremendously.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Dread spikes is another thing.

Let's not get all memey like this. This is really bad.

Let's instead celebrate our obvious new placement as toppest of tiers.

You can say we certainly do have a Topspin. I'll see myself out.

 

[Luig]

This really shows that one change in the right place can really help a character out....

 

[S_B]

Just replace the to with a -.

Spin-win.

Spin->Win

It would roll off the tongue for commentators, that's for sure.

Still thinking of others like "Wheel of Misfortune", "Fire-Cracker"...

How is the endframe decrease that good? Won't they still have just as much hitstun as if we threw them later?

The FAF after Bowser uses it should now be coming sooner. They're not certain on which frame it is, but it's going DOWN which means Bowser gets to react faster out of Uthrow (it'd be time to make a Sakurai voodoo doll if he gave us an Uthrow which can combo, then made it so we can't jump in the air in time to do anything about it...).

But still, HOLY ****, IT'S HAPPENING, people, it's REALLY HAPPENING.....

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

No cheesy names for Up throw kill setups please

Spinning Shell of Chaos

 

[Big-Cat]

How about Bara Dragon Punch?

 

[MagiusNecros]

How about Bara Dragon Punch?

KOOPA MESSATSU!

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Y'know, "spin 2 win" sounds pretty good

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

This really shows that one change in the right place can really help a character out....

We haven't even seen this in action yet. Let's keep our heads.

How is the endframe decrease that good? Won't they still have just as much hitstun as if we threw them later?

In the game files, they can tell what the FAF is for throws. "endframe" is another word for that. And unless the startup for the move was modified in some way, such a change implies that our endlag was reduced by 7. By my count, it's 15 before to 8 in this patch. Bowser can act 7 frames sooner. As for their hitstun, that's dependent on the new knockback received. I guess whoever decided Uthrow should be buffed found that targets could escape followups with the old endlag. Unacceptable

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I FOUND IT!

I FOUND THE PREFECT NAME FOR THE UP THROW!

Spoiler

Tatsumaki Shellpukyaku

 

[S_B]

If there was something clever about Bowser using his head to bash people that we could use...

We should just borrow half of DK's and call it the "spinning dong"... (no, we shouldn't)

In the game files, they can tell what the FAF is for throws. "endframe" is another word for that. And unless the startup for the move was modified in some way, such a change implies that our endlag was reduced by 7. By my count, it's 15 before to 8 in this patch. Bowser can act 7 frames sooner. As for their hitstun, that's dependent on the new knockback received. I guess whoever decided Uthrow should be buffed found that targets could escape followups with the old endlag. Unacceptable

Uh, wait, if the hitlag modifier on his shell spinning is indeed faster, then the FAF coming sooner might not be as big of a buff as we think...

Uh oh...

Sakurai wouldn't do that to us, right...? D:

 

[MagiusNecros]

How about no.

 

[Luig]

If there was something clever about Bowser using his head to bash people that we could use...

We should just borrow half of DK's and call it the "spinning dong"... (no, we shouldn't)



Uh, wait, if the hitlag modifier on his shell is indeed faster, then the FAF coming sooner might not be as big of a buff as we think...

Uh oh...

Sakurai wouldn't do that to us, right...? D:

I believe FAF values are without hitlag, so hitlag won't really matter I think...

 

[S_B]

I believe FAF values are without hitlag, so hitlag won't really matter I think...

Hmm...

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Freeze_frame

"Freeze frames (also known as hitlag and officially known as impact stall) are a phenomenon that appears in all four games of the Super Smash Bros. series whereby a character will freeze for a period of time after connecting with an attack. If successful with most attacks, both the attacker and target are frozen in time for a number of frames. This causes the attack to get "stuck" out longer than it would if it had not hit anything, while the target has a short time to react before the knockback occurs."

Now, did Sakurai recently tell us that he refers to HitSTUN as HitLAG, or am I losing my mind...?

I mean, I STILL think this is indeed a combo throw, but the timing on it might be VERY tight...

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I believe FAF values are without hitlag, so hitlag won't really matter I think...

Yes. We do not count hitlag frames.

The only possibility left is that the data miners are making a massive mistake. I've caught them in an error at least a few times in previous patches. But that's mostly with custom moves and specials that have bizarre frame speed multipliers mucking up FAF calculations.

I also like to think that their question mark is them waiting for my confirmation because they so value my input for matters of FAF...

 

[Big Sean]

Alright I wrote up this mini guide to our new amazing up throw: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bF1ew7Lnhj6Szj-96ExYixVx6EbVo-meS6FFfyQQ7bw/edit?usp=sharing

As you can see we don't enter the kind of knockback we use to have at 0% until ~115%. This combined with the endframe decrease should mean that we do indeed have a hoo hah kill throw. It Probably works around 100-150%

 

[Luig]

Hmm...

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Freeze_frame

"Freeze frames (also known as hitlag and officially known as impact stall) are a phenomenon that appears in all four games of the Super Smash Bros. series whereby a character will freeze for a period of time after connecting with an attack. If successful with most attacks, both the attacker and target are frozen in time for a number of frames. This causes the attack to get "stuck" out longer than it would if it had not hit anything, while the target has a short time to react before the knockback occurs."

Now, did Sakurai recently tell us that he refers to HitSTUN as HitLAG, or am I losing my mind...?

I mean, I STILL think this is indeed a combo throw, but the timing on it might be VERY tight...

Yeah.
Sakurai is weird.

 

[S_B]

Yeah.
Sakurai is weird.

UNLESS.... (well, no, he's DEFINITELY weird, but...)

What if the hitlag they're referring to is not the victim of the throw but the collateral victim who's also caught in it?

This means that Uthrow isn't ACTUALLY any faster, but will finish at the same speed whether or not Bowser has someone else caught in his spikes at the time, whereas before, having a collateral victim would slow him down when Uthrowing.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Hmm...

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Freeze_frame

"Freeze frames (also known as hitlag and officially known as impact stall) are a phenomenon that appears in all four games of the Super Smash Bros. series whereby a character will freeze for a period of time after connecting with an attack. If successful with most attacks, both the attacker and target are frozen in time for a number of frames. This causes the attack to get "stuck" out longer than it would if it had not hit anything, while the target has a short time to react before the knockback occurs."

Now, did Sakurai recently tell us that he refers to HitSTUN as HitLAG, or am I losing my mind...?

I mean, I STILL think this is indeed a combo throw, but the timing on it might be VERY tight...

He called hitlag "hitstop" in an article about it.

 

[S_B]

I just tested it and Bowser spins the same speed regardless of whether or not he has someone else trapped within his spin...

Hmm...

Plus, I just looked again and:

Looping Hits hitlag modifier 1.0x -> 0.5x

...Should mean that Uthrow is definitely finishing faster, possibly even twice as fast?

I think we'll just have to wait and try it for ourselves. Sakurai wouldn't give us all the makings of a combo throw only to then decide we can't actually USE it...

Alright I wrote up this mini guide to our new amazing up throw: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bF1ew7Lnhj6Szj-96ExYixVx6EbVo-meS6FFfyQQ7bw/edit?usp=sharing

As you can see we don't enter the kind of knockback we use to have at 0% until ~115%. This combined with the endframe decrease should mean that we do indeed have a hoo hah kill throw. It Probably works around 100-150%

Awesome!

This will probably be a place where we can actually followup with aerial fortress (as folks have been mentioning) so we can stale the hell out of Uthrow, rack damage with fortress or Nair, then Uair for the kill...

I'm just hoping there isn't something about this that makes it easily escapable because right now it SOUNDS like a sure thing...

 

[pitfall356]

Wouldn't that be great though?
haha jokes on us, uthrow has less damage and looks like a combo throw but is actually just **** now! Enjoy, Bowser players!

 

[Cronoc]

Uthrow being a proper combo throw is welcome even if I wish this game had less bread and butter. I'm more interested in any hitbox range changes though... I'm guessing those can't be datamined?

 

[Cassius.]

I think ShellShock might be it. Maybe. idk. But I can't wait to hit the lab with this. I'm not sure how much of a difference it'll make with problem MUs but now our rewards for playing neutral well are actually relevant.

And if Bowser's pivot grab doesn't get changed...were ****ing in there.

We really can't do much else until the patch actually comes, so let's just pray.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Uthrow being a proper combo throw is welcome even if I wish this game had less bread and butter. I'm more interested in any hitbox changes though... I'm guessing those can't be datamined?

They're really the only thing they can datamine.

Animation changes, FAF for certain actions (like an aerial's landing lag) and data on articles (certain player made obstacles and items like bananas and hydrants) are the big things they can't really find or interpret.

 

[Cronoc]

They're really the only thing they can datamine.

Animation changes, FAF for certain actions (like an aerial's landing lag) and data on articles (certain player made obstacles and items like bananas and hydrants) are the big things they can't really find or interpret.

Looking through the patch notes so far it looks like if Bowser's hitboxes on moves were fixed they would have been noticed, since there are notes to that effect on other characters. I lost a match due to whiffing a klaw at kill percents just last night, seems that will continue...

 

[S_B]

I think ShellShock might be it. Maybe. idk. But I can't wait to hit the lab with this. I'm not sure how much of a difference it'll make with problem MUs but now our rewards for playing neutral well are actually relevant.

Maybe "Shell Shocker", but again, it kind of implies the actual kill happens off of a move that involves Bowser's shell (I'd laugh like hell if they buffed the ending hit of aerial fortress to make it a kill move... Then we'd DEFINITELY have a shell shocker on our hands!)

But yeah, psyched as all hell for this patch. Even with no nerfs to Sheik and ZSS, Bowser might actually have a prayer now.

I'd say let's hope they didn't nerf the rest of his moveset to compensate, but the truth is that they likely wouldn't do that because that would involve nerfing Bowser in casual play because of something they gave him in competitive play.

Uthrow being a proper combo throw is welcome even if I wish this game had less bread and butter.

I was hoping it would be a shieldbreak setup of some kind, but again, if it makes Bowser competitive, I'm not about to send it back...

 

[BarSoapSoup]

If Bowser is totally confirmed for a combo throw, I'm going to play Bowser to this song for a straight 10 hours.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWt73qlcotw

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Didn't think I'd ever see the day~

 

[S_B]

With the all three new characters being a pile of disjointed, comboing, ranged attacking nightmare, Bowser is going to need all the combo throws he can get... :\