Meta Pokemon Stadium - Mewtwo General Matchup Thread

[RayNoire]

Ness just doesn't seem to bother me. His mobility isn't overwhelming, he can't catch our landing super well, almost every combo seems to work on him, he's got a slow double jump that he really needs to save anyway, and we should be able to kill him every time he has to PKT offstage.

I thought it was in our favor pre-patch/pre-understanding of PSI Magnet, but it's still probably not any worse than even.

 

[Chiroz]

Ness just doesn't seem to bother me. His mobility isn't overwhelming, he can't catch our landing super well, almost every combo seems to work on him, he's got a slow double jump that he really needs to save anyway, and we should be able to kill him every time he has to PKT offstage.

I thought it was in our favor pre-patch/pre-understanding of PSI Magnet, but it's still probably not any worse than even.

I haven't had a Ness gimme any trouble because of Ness' kit.

I've had Ness players give me problems, but due to me being careless or them being good (or sometimes just them being random). I won't say anything about the matchup because as I said I still need more experience, but from the little experience I have it seems like an even matchup.

 

[Browny]

I think when you break it down, Ness cant actually do anything to Mewtwo in neutral. Hes too slow, doesnt have any pokes and has no hard punishes at mid-range. His best spacing tool if he is in the lead is solidly beaten by Mewtwos dash attack and shadowball.

I've mained Ness since the 64 version and I main him in this game, I feel he excels against characters that he can just obnoxiously space against with fair, nair oos and harass them with PKT. Mewtwo has solid answers to all of those options and in theory should have an easy time dealing with him offstage, it just requires the correct approach in keeping out of his uair range and then FF nairing him to his death.

I play against Metros' Mewtwo very often as Ness and at no time do I feel like I have some option of playstyle which makes the matchup in my favour. This is distinctly different to other characters like falcon where raptor boost alone seems to put the matchup in my favour, or pikachu when he lands aerials and crouches to avoid getting punished.

 

[Chiroz]

I think when you break it down, Ness cant actually do anything to Mewtwo in neutral. Hes too slow, doesnt have any pokes and has no hard punishes at mid-range. His best spacing tool if he is in the lead is solidly beaten by Mewtwos dash attack and shadowball.

I've mained Ness since the 64 version and I main him in this game, I feel he excels against characters that he can just obnoxiously space against with fair, nair oos and harass them with PKT. Mewtwo has solid answers to all of those options and in theory should have an easy time dealing with him offstage, it just requires the correct approach in keeping out of his uair range and then FF nairing him to his death.

I play against Metros' Mewtwo very often as Ness and at no time do I feel like I have some option of playstyle which makes the matchup in my favour. This is distinctly different to other characters like falcon where raptor boost alone seems to put the matchup in my favour, or pikachu when he lands aerials and crouches to avoid getting punished.

I would say well spaced F-Airs are 100% safe for Ness. Apart from that there isn't much else that's safe in that matchup.

In the same sense though only Mewtwo's F-Air is truly safe for Mewtwo. But I guess I understand what you mean, Mewtwo both outranges and outspeeds Ness, but IDK how that translates in the footsie game since Mewtwo has to always be wary of PK Fire and dash grabs.



Falcon's Raptor Boost puts the matchup in your favor? Apart from killing us extremely favor I don't think there's anything Raptor Boost does to give Falcon an advantage. That move loves or clases with basically any move in the game. As long as Mewtwo has some hitbox out then Falcon won't hit him. It's also very easy to predict it if the Falcon uses it more than a few times in the match and it's extremely punisheable.

I mean if you miss a raptor boost (or I shield it) you are definitely getting Disabled. If I Disable you at 80% (less depending on my rage) then it's a stock for me.

The reason I put Falcon matchup as hard is because of D-Throw, Jab, U-Air and Knee. Every other move doesn't matter, those 4 moves used correctly just **** Mewtwo up.

 

[TheBlaziking524]

I don't know to much about the match ups but my mewtwo isn't all that its decent but its not on the level I want it to be. You guys know a lot more than I do so can I get some tips maybe some combos or mix ups I can do with Mewtwo.

 

[Chiroz]

If you were punishing Psi Magnet, then the Ness doesn't know what he is doing. It is shield cancelable once it absorbs anything, which means it is jump and throw cancelable. It doesn't sound like the Ness you fought knew what he was doing against Mewtwo. Perhaps none of them did. Glad to refer you to a good one that knows the matchup if you want.

Check this video and tell me that Psi Magnet isn't safe against baby Shadow Balls:
https://youtu.be/wQfaejKUrgA

You got a video of you against the one good Ness you fought?

Re: Sonic. I can do alright against him with Mewtwo. I do very well against him with Bowser. Faster means Sonic can punish us more easily. I have been punished at mid screen for a whiffed Dtilt, and I have been grabbed before a pivot ftilt at half screen as well. We honestly just can't use most of our moveset against a good Sonic. Again, glad to refer you to a good Sonic that knows the matchup if you want.

We disagree on Fox, then. I think Fox has a tough neutral for us. Especially with customs on. It is extremely hard to deal with the Falco laser and Winding up B.

Nair through Mario's fireballs and hit him when he is in the air. Jab it out and then Jab2 to punish. Lots of options vs. Mario. Can't say anyone has given me trouble there in a long time. We can do a lot to make sure we don't get grabbed. Nair out of there. Mario can't punish unless he predicts it and Usmashes the right spot.

Actually any time a character with stubby normals tries to approach from the air Nairing into them is a good idea.

Where is your top 5 worst matchup list?

Just going to say: The one Ness I was talking about that we went last stock, last hit on both games was SS (since then we have played 2 more relatively close games).

Look at how well he placed at EVO, the guy is definitely very good. I honestly don't think Mewtwo vs Ness is that bad. Mr. R.'s Sheik for example I can barely touch, good Falcon's I can barely move.

With Ness I can at least play neutral, outrange and just outpoke. At least from what I felt when playing SS. Shane's (SS) brother (K9) thinks the marchup is about even because Mewtwo and Ness are similar (at least he said that in a passing comment).



I will see if I can get some more games in on my own Wii U so I can save the replays and upload them.

I got like 10 replays against what's probably the best Yoshi in the world (Sky). I lost 90% of the games (barely won 2 games out of like 20) but again, I felt like I had a fighting chance against his Yoshi unlike against when I play pro Sheiks, Falcons, Pikachus and Foxs.

 

[Browny]

http://gfycat.com/AmbitiousTintedHornshark

At Evo, a Wii Fit Trainer managed to usmash yoshis fair from what seemed a complete mile away and it showed me something. Yoshis hurtbox extends drastically during his fair. So I made that gfy.

Since Yoshis LOVE this approach, I think Mewtwo has a legitimate answer to fair spamming if it can clip it from that far away.

 

[Chiroz]

http://gfycat.com/AmbitiousTintedHornshark

At Evo, a Wii Fit Trainer managed to usmash yoshis fair from what seemed a complete mile away and it showed me something. Yoshis hurtbox extends drastically during his fair. So I made that gfy.

Since Yoshis LOVE this approach, I think Mewtwo has a legitimate answer to fair spamming if it can clip it from that far away.

His hitbox extends just as much though. So your U-Smash needs to be done just before Yoshi F-Airs. U-Smashing will beat it but if he doesn't go for the F-Air you're eating either a Smash or just an F-Air combo into U-Air.

It's good to be aware you can do this but just remember not to be baited into doing it.

 

[Karsticles]

Mewtwo already has an answer to Yoshi Fair spam. His own Fair. Better and safer than a Yolo Usmash that could get us killed and cab probably be DId out of.

 

[Browny]

There is no way Mewtwos fair is going to beat a yoshi fair approach when yoshi hits from above and mewtwos fair doesnt cover that area.

 

[meleebrawler]

There is no way Mewtwos fair is going to beat a yoshi fair approach when yoshi hits from above and mewtwos fair doesnt cover that area.

Maybe you need to work on your reflexes so that you can consistently be level with Yoshi in the air when he jumps.

 

[Chiroz]

Mario's D-Tilt can hit us when we teleport with incredible ease. Like he doesn't even have to time it, he can spam it and it will hit us almost 100% guaranteed. We cannot sweetspot/ledge snap against Mario.



It's just waaaay too easy to hit us as we're sweetspotting.

 

[meleebrawler]

Mario's D-Tilt can hit us when we teleport with incredible ease. Like he doesn't even have to time it, he can spam it and it will hit us almost 100% guaranteed. We cannot sweetspot/ledge snap against Mario.



It's just waaaay too easy to hit us as we're sweetspotting.

Isn't it really obvious if he tries to do that though? Just smack him.

 

[Chiroz]

Isn't it really obvious if he tries to do that though? Just smack him.

Smack him how exactly? If you double jump he will notice it, our double jump is incredibly slow. He can just power shield any aerial you do from double jump and then throw you offstage again. All I can do is double jump away from the stage and try to mix up how I get on top of the stage but sweetspotting doesn't seem to be an option against a Mario that knows this.

 

[meleebrawler]

Smack him how exactly? If you double jump he will notice it, our double jump is incredibly slow. He can just power shield any aerial you do from double jump and then throw you offstage again. All I can do is double jump away from the stage and try to mix up how I get on top of the stage but sweetspotting doesn't seem to be an option against a Mario that knows this.

Confusion. Can't powershield that now can you? Also the mere threat that you could hit him should give him enough pause
to let you ledge grab sans teleport.

Also recovering high with Mewtwo against Mario really isn't that hard, I know Usmash is scary, but the thing is, Mario isn't that fast so he's prone to getting faked out by Mewtwo, thus letting him land safely. He's not Fox who can just chase after Mewtwo's landing no matter what he does. So don't be afraid to try it if grabbing the ledge isn't working out.

His aerials do work better at edge guarding there though, so going low is a good option against those who aggressively chase off-stage.

 

[Chiroz]

Confusion. Can't powershield that now can you? Also the mere threat that you could hit him should give him enough pause
to let you ledge grab sans teleport.

Also recovering high with Mewtwo against Mario really isn't that hard, I know Usmash is scary, but the thing is, Mario isn't that fast so he's prone to getting faked out by Mewtwo, thus letting him land safely. He's not Fox who can just chase after Mewtwo's landing no matter what he does. So don't be afraid to try it if grabbing the ledge isn't working out.

His aerials do work better at edge guarding there though, so going low is a good option against those who aggressively chase off-stage.

Confusion won't really help you though, as he will get a free spike out of it and kill you. You won't grab the ledge after Confusion and you will NOT land on the stage so you WILL have to Teleport. Enemies can act faster after Confusion so he can just F-Air and kill you. In the best case scenario, if he cannot time the F-Air, he will just land and continue to D-Tilt since you have to grab the ledge anyways.



Fear is irrelevant, a good player that knows the matchup will understand Mewtwo aerials. If Mewtwo is backwards then he can only B-Air which hits incredibly late, so they know they can react to that, no need to shield until they see the move come out. If Mewtwo is facing forwards then he can only F-Air and D-Tilt hits BELOW the ledge, while Mewtwo's F-Air requires half his body to be above the ledge. Mario can just continue D-Tilting without a consequence.

Edit: I guess U-Air is an option but that depends on the stage and the ledge, plus how close/far Mario is from the ledge. It's situational but might be the aerial to go to in this situation.



I am not talking about someone who doesn't know the matchup and is "thrown away" by Confusion. I am talking hypothetically about a Mario who knows everything about Mario vs Mewtwo. So he would understand that after Confusing someone at the ledge Mewtwo has no choice but to Teleport to the edge and that he has frame advantage to stop it.



Mario's aerials are not a big deal offstage for Mewtwo tbh. If Mario jumps offstage 1 Teleport is enough to completely avoid him.

Recovering high is what I was talking about. Faking him. But that's not as safe as you make it sound. Mario can in fact chase you, he's one of the best characters at punishing you out of it since he just needs a grab (or running U-Smash if at kill %). He doesn't run as fast as Fox or Sheik but he runs plenty fast enough to punish your landing unless you trick him into committing to an attack first.

 

[meleebrawler]

Confusion won't really help you though, as he will get a free spike out of it and kill you. You won't grab the ledge after Confusion and you will NOT land on the stage so you WILL have to Teleport. Enemies can act faster after Confusion so he can just F-Air and kill you. In the best case scenario, if he cannot time the F-Air, he will just land and continue to D-Tilt since you have to grab the ledge anyways.



Fear is irrelevant, a good player that knows the matchup will understand Mewtwo aerials. If Mewtwo is backwards then he can only B-Air which hits incredibly late, so they know they can react to that, no need to shield until they see the move come out. If Mewtwo is facing forwards then he can only F-Air and D-Tilt hits BELOW the ledge, while Mewtwo's F-Air requires half his body to be above the ledge. Mario can just continue D-Tilting without a consequence.

Edit: I guess U-Air is an option but that depends on the stage and the ledge, plus how close/far Mario is from the ledge. It's situational but might be the aerial to go to in this situation.



I am not talking about someone who doesn't know the matchup and is "thrown away" by Confusion. I am talking hypothetically about a Mario who knows everything about Mario vs Mewtwo. So he would understand that after Confusing someone at the ledge Mewtwo has no choice but to Teleport to the edge and that he has frame advantage to stop it.



Mario's aerials are not a big deal offstage for Mewtwo tbh. If Mario jumps offstage 1 Teleport is enough to completely avoid him.

Recovering high is what I was talking about. Faking him. But that's not as safe as you make it sound. Mario can in fact chase you, he's one of the best characters at punishing you out of it since he just needs a grab (or running U-Smash if at kill %). He doesn't run as fast as Fox or Sheik but he runs plenty fast enough to punish your landing unless you trick him into committing to an attack first.

Confusion's still an option if you're facing away the ledge, and a rising nair is possible on both sides too.
Or if you're facing away propelling yourself with a shadow ball is an option too if you have one.

Are we talking if Confusion hits? Because I really don't see how Mario gets a free spike from a Confusion hit with how slow his fair is. It's not a free spike, it's you not reacting with a dodge in time. Then you can grab the edge when he's stuck in lag. Even the fastest option of teching in place doesn't give him enough time to stop Mewtwo from Teleporting to the edge.

 

[Chiroz]

Confusion's still an option if you're facing away the ledge, and a rising nair is possible on both sides too.
Or if you're facing away propelling yourself with a shadow ball is an option too if you have one.

Are we talking if Confusion hits? Because I really don't see how Mario gets a free spike from a Confusion hit with how slow his fair is. It's not a free spike, it's you not reacting with a dodge in time. Then you can grab the edge when he's stuck in lag. Even the fastest option of teching in place doesn't give him enough time to stop Mewtwo from Teleporting to the edge.

I was talking about returning from below, You cannot use Shadow Ball if you're low, you'll go below the stage and also it won't help. I know you can return high and try to trick Mario with one of our many tools, I said that in the very first post, but I am strictly talking about trying to Teleport to the ledge which is sometimes completely necessary. I played a Mario who just D-Tilted me every single time I went for the ledge, about 4-5 times in a match. Basically recovering low in any way was not an option anymore.



You are not thinking the situation through correctly.

If Confusion hits an opponent that's standing at the edge, both Mewtwo and the opponent "stand in place". They are both released at the same time, but at a range where you can't F-Air Mario. This means that throwing out an attack doesn't help in any way.

Here's the problem. Mewtwo will not land on the stage. He won't grab the ledge either. He will DROP below the edge and now you don't have your second jump which means you can only teleport. Meanwhile, Mario has ALREADY landed (since you dropped below the stage and he falls faster than you, he obviously already landed on the stage) and he is back exactly where he was before the Confusion.

Again we are talking about a Mario that knows the matchup, not some random guy. Mario's fastest option is not teching. His fastest option is performing an U-Air (or any aerial) before he lands, he doesn't have to tech or even land in tumble for that matter. If Mario U-Airs (or B-Airs, or D-Airs or N-Airs, or F-Airs right before he lands) he will land completely lagless before Mewtwo has teleported to the ledge.

I was theorizing that it may even be possible for Mario to go for a spike since now he knows you have no second jump and you must teleport before you drop lower than the teleport range. Since he knows all this it might be easy to time the spike, although I don't know if the spike hits below the ledge like D-Tilt does. This is just a theory though, spiking might be completely impossible for Mario, but he can still go for the D-Tilts again.



Now obviously, you could Teleport right after the Confusion in order to get on the stage, but Mario might go for an attack (most probably U-Air), he might even be able to get the spike if you try and go for a teleport (although I doubt the opponent gets an 8 frame advantage on Mewtwo, so I don't think a spike is possible). I guess confusion to teleport might be a good option, but I fear that Mario's U-Air is good enough to hit us and also allow him to land for the D-Tilt (basically covering both options, teleport and dropping). I would have to test just how much range Mario's U-Air has and just how far away Mewtwo is from Mario after the Confusion.

You have to remember that Teleport is frame 9 and Confusion gives the opponent frame advantage. Which means that a frame 10 aerial would hit Mewtwo before he could Teleport, and Mario's aerials are ALL less than 5 frames (except for F-Air which is 17 frames). He has more than enough time to hit you out of Teleport if he attacks. And in this case I think attacking is just optimal in every way for him, there's no drawback to him using U-Air I believe which is why he would always opt for that.

 

[Coffee™]

It seems like you're overthinking this a bit @ Chiroz . Mewtwo has quite a bit of options to recover assuming Mario is Dtilting the ledge. I'd also assume it's not that hard to simply time the teleport to avoid the Dtilts, maybe I'm not getting the whole picture.

This is basically Mario on stage by the ledge and Mewtwo recovering from low, whilst he still has the option to DJ, Confusion and Teleport, correct?

 

[meleebrawler]

It seems like you're overthinking this a bit @ Chiroz . Mewtwo has quite a bit of options to recover assuming Mario is Dtilting the ledge. I'd also assume it's not that hard to simply time the teleport to avoid the Dtilts, maybe I'm not getting the whole picture.

This is basically Mario on stage by the ledge and Mewtwo recovering from low, whilst he still has the option to DJ, Confusion and Teleport, correct?

The real question is can Mario just dtilt on reaction instead of spamming it and hoping it hits.
Even then it won't be hard to tell if Mario will try to do this so you can counter appropriately, and there won't be many situations
where you'll have no choice but to recover low. The only real semi-spike in Mario's arsenal is dsmash which isn't that strong except on the back hit.

 

[Chiroz]

The real question is can Mario just dtilt on reaction instead of spamming it and hoping it hits.
Even then it won't be hard to tell if Mario will try to do this so you can counter appropriately, and there won't be many situations
where you'll have no choice but to recover low. The only real semi-spike in Mario's arsenal is dsmash which isn't that strong except on the back hit.

He can time it. The Mario I was fighting was just timing it.

Again I am not saying that we cannot recover against Mario. I actually won the match against that Mario. The problem is he eliminates more than half the recovery options just because he has that move.

This same player was also able to kill me with Lucas and Ness every time I went for the ledge. Mewtwo's vulnerable frames when grabbing the edge are just ******** because of how big his body is.

 

[Chiroz]

So... Falco's reflector is not 1.4x.

I just had a Falco reflect me a 3rd time and the Shadow Ball did 52% damage. What's Falco's reflector %?



Edit 1: I guess I could do the math myself:

51.5 < 25 * 1.05 * X^2 * 1.4 < 52.5

51.5 < 36.75 * X^2 < 52.5

51.5/36.75 < X^2 < 52.5/36.75

1.40136 < X^2 < 1.42857

1.18379 < X < 1.196



Based on this I would say Falco's reflector is about 1.19x, I will test in training. A reflected Shadow Ball in training should do about 25 x 1.19 which is 29.75 which will be displayed as 30%.




Edit 2: As calculated, Falco's reflector is indeed about 1.19. This is both good and bad. Against Falco the roles are reversed:

When fresh, Falco will always win the reflect wars vs a Fully Charged Shadow Ball. When stale, no matter how stale it is (unless its about 7 times stale, but that should never happen), Mewtwo will always win the reflect wars. This is actually quite interesting to know and I think it's even better than against Fox or Mario.

@ Karsticles charging 3/4th of the way against Falco might actually make him win the reflect wars if Shadow Ball is 2x stale or more (although it will allow you to win the reflect wars when Shadow Ball is fresh or just a little stale).

 

[Constadin]

Raykz, is it safe you think to teleport behind mario directly than going for the ledge? I know you cannot do it every time because if it is anticipated a dash attack might punish the teleport. I use this method a lot 1/3 of my recoveries and I am rarely punished considering I try to bait ppl and I believe it to be a good alternative to the vulnerable ledge snap.

 

[Chiroz]

Raykz, is it safe you think to teleport behind mario directly than going for the ledge? I know you cannot do it every time because if it is anticipated a dash attack might punish the teleport. I use this method a lot 1/3 of my recoveries and I am rarely punished considering I try to bait ppl and I believe it to be a good alternative to the vulnerable ledge snap.

Yea I've been integrating Teleport a lot more to my overall stage movement, to get out of combos and to recover into the stage.

As long as you don't overdue it it seems to be quite good. Most of the times I wait for my opponents to overcommit to some movement option, like jumping or dashing and then Teleport as they will have to land/pivot and thus give me enough time to get out of endlag.

It's one of the things I am currently exploring and practicing.

 

[Constadin]

Another rly helpful thing with teleport is the faster transition from platforms like battlefield's to the ground (main stage). I do it all the time and even if I got punished from the action of landing (which due to mew2s flowtness is a high possibility anyway you choose to land) it's better to go down with style

 

[Chiroz]

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCttG16jT_EvO9Z2LbBXvp_g/videos


My youtube channel, there's some videos of me vs Sky. I get wrecked in 90% of them, but just watching them you can see the Yoshi matchup isn't as stupidly hard as most people were saying.

 

[Smog Frog]

that set of matches gives me the impression that is less limited than other low tiers() in a manner not unlike . it really is terrible physics and hostile mechanics that limit him.

 

[Chiroz]

that set of matches gives me the impression that is less limited than other low tiers() in a manner not unlike . it really is terrible physics and hostile mechanics that limit him.

I agree. Mewtwo is way too easily comboed by everything in the game. All chars can jab->combo Mewtwo because of his weight + fallspeed + hurt animation (something that isn't talked about much, but it SUCKS). He has no way out of comboes and then he dies extremely early.

I think in terms of moveset, Mewtwo's main problem is wonky hitboxes an slow startup, but the moves themselves are actually quite effective. If the hitboxes are fixed and if Mewtwo is given some fast attacks (decrease Jab startup and multi-jab startup, decrease N-Air startup) I think Mewtwo will be a force to be reckoned with.

 

[Karsticles]

I agree. Mewtwo is way too easily comboed by everything in the game. All chars can jab->combo Mewtwo because of his weight + fallspeed + hurt animation (something that isn't talked about much, but it SUCKS). He has no way out of comboes and then he dies extremely early.

I think in terms of moveset, Mewtwo's main problem is wonky hitboxes an slow startup, but the moves themselves are actually quite effective. If the hitboxes are fixed and if Mewtwo is given some fast attacks (decrease Jab startup and multi-jab startup, decrease N-Air startup) I think Mewtwo will be a force to be reckoned with.

He still needs offensive tools. Most characters can turtle up and wait for Mewtwo to make a patchetic attempt at offense, and then punish.

Honestly, the best change that could happen is system-wide crouch canceling out of dashes.

Also, I will say here what I said to you in PMs: Sky isn't playing the matchup right. Pure offense, no defense. Just how Mewtwo likes it. Look at how ZeRo won Evo. He spent half of his time shielding and Nair canceling. Mewtwo has no answer to that when Yoshi does it.

 

[Chiroz]

He still needs offensive tools. Most characters can turtle up and wait for Mewtwo to make a patchetic attempt at offense, and then punish.

Honestly, the best change that could happen is system-wide crouch canceling out of dashes.

Also, I will say here what I said to you in PMs: Sky isn't playing the matchup right. Pure offense, no defense. Just how Mewtwo likes it. Look at how ZeRo won Evo. He spent half of his time shielding and Nair canceling. Mewtwo has no answer to that when Yoshi does it.

I hadn't read this I believe. If Yoshi is just waiting, then you can just charge Shadow Balls and N-Air through him like you've said before. If what you mean is he spaces aerials and such then charge your ball then space them back and wait for SB punishes.

I normally have an easier time dealing with defensive playstyles than I do with offensive. In general defensive playstyles allow Mewtwo to space himself well and charge Shadow Ball which are his 2 greatest tools, offensive playstyles take away both of Mewtwo's best tools in neutral.




Anyways I came to ask:

How would you guy go about dealing with Shulk's Shield Monado? I fought a Shulk yesterday who I was clearly better than. Every game I would get him to kill % when I was just at 30-40%. This Shulk though is quite efficient at Shulking, he changes his monado arts on the fly and knows how to art cancel (going as far as being able to change monado arts during his grab animation, changing to the correct art depending on whether he landed the grab or not).



The biggest problem for me was, he would switch to Shield Monado. Now normally this isn't a problem, because Shield Monado is extremely slow and easily kited. But the thing is, Mewtwo kills from the top, and Shield Monado excels at stopping that. U-Throw won't kill until about 230%, U-Smash until about 190%. Once Shield Monado dropped, he would either go Speed or Jump and just run/jump around not allowing me to get in. Slowly we would poke at each other when he was in Shield Mode, and I would try to get in when he was in Speed/Jump, being confident that he was at kill %, I was very low % and that he deals less damage in Speed/Jump.

Still slowly he would poke me up to 70% at which point, with all the rage he had, any Smash would kill me. It was impossible for me to catch him during Speed/Jump with an U-Smash or Grab and he kept spacing me out during Shield mode with his D-Tilt and Pivot F-Tilts (not hitting me, but keeping those up as walls so I couldn't get in).

I managed to beat him 2 games, SDed a 3rd (I also got a sourspot spike offstage on this game too, it was so sad) that I should have won and lost game 5 due to rolling into his U-Smash at 70% (he was close to 160%).

My own strategy of just kiting around him was actually beating his "strategy", but honestly it was A LOT of effort for very little gain. I was basically chipping away little by little (Shield Monado takes 40% less damage too) until he was at 160% or trying to go all ham on the last 3 seconds of Shield Mode (so it would run out during pummel/throw animation). Once I was at 70%+ I would stop trying to go in during Jump or Speed because I realized that's what he wanted me to do, to let my guard down or get desperate when he was just kiting me.

Is there any advice to dealing with this?

 

[meleebrawler]

I hadn't read this I believe. If Yoshi is just waiting, then you can just charge Shadow Balls and N-Air through him like you've said before. If what you mean is he spaces aerials and such then charge your ball then space them back and wait for SB punishes.

I normally have an easier time dealing with defensive playstyles than I do with offensive. In general defensive playstyles allow Mewtwo to space himself well and charge Shadow Ball which are his 2 greatest tools, offensive playstyles take away both of Mewtwo's best tools in neutral.




Anyways I came to ask:

How would you guy go about dealing with Shulk's Shield Monado? I fought a Shulk yesterday who I was clearly better than. Every game I would get him to kill % when I was just at 30-40%. This Shulk though is quite efficient at Shulking, he changes his monado arts on the fly and knows how to art cancel (going as far as being able to change monado arts during his grab animation, changing to the correct art depending on whether he landed the grab or not).



The biggest problem for me was, he would switch to Shield Monado. Now normally this isn't a problem, because Shield Monado is extremely slow and easily kited. But the thing is, Mewtwo kills from the top, and Shield Monado excels at stopping that. U-Throw won't kill until about 230%, U-Smash until about 190%. Once Shield Monado dropped, he would either go Speed or Jump and just run/jump around not allowing me to get in. Slowly we would poke at each other when he was in Shield Mode, and I would try to get in when he was in Speed/Jump, being confident that he was at kill %, I was very low % and that he deals less damage in Speed/Jump.

Still slowly he would poke me up to 70% at which point, with all the rage he had, any Smash would kill me. It was impossible for me to catch him during Speed/Jump with an U-Smash or Grab and he kept spacing me out during Shield mode with his D-Tilt and Pivot F-Tilts (not hitting me, but keeping those up as walls so I couldn't get in).

I managed to beat him 2 games, SDed a 3rd (I also got a sourspot spike offstage on this game too, it was so sad) that I should have won and lost game 5 due to rolling into his U-Smash at 70% (he was close to 160%).

My own strategy of just kiting around him was actually beating his "strategy", but honestly it was A LOT of effort for very little gain. I was basically chipping away little by little (Shield Monado takes 40% less damage too) until he was at 160% or trying to go all ham on the last 3 seconds of Shield Mode (so it would run out during pummel/throw animation). Once I was at 70%+ I would stop trying to go in during Jump or Speed because I realized that's what he wanted me to do, to let my guard down or get desperate when he was just kiting me.

Is there any advice to dealing with this?

Throw him off the stage if his percent is high enough, if he gets knocked far enough he'll need to exit it quickly if he doesn't want to die by gimp. With his bad mobility you could try to get stuff out of dthrow or confusion, like a disable if you manage to psych him out.

Also Jump Shulk doesn't deal less damage, instead he takes more damage.

 

[Chiroz]

Throw him off the stage if his percent is high enough, if he gets knocked far enough he'll need to exit it quickly if he doesn't want to die by gimp. With his bad mobility you could try to get stuff out of dthrow or confusion, like a disable if you manage to psych him out.

Also Jump Shulk doesn't deal less damage, instead he takes more damage.

I mean I was throwing him offstage as much as I could but B-Throw isn't exactly that strong vs Shield Shulk so he would stay Shield unless I grabbed him at the very edge which was like once.



I probably should have tried Confusion and D-Throw more and just went in for combos since he was probably much easier to combo. I'll keep that in mind for next time.



I mean I was winning. I almost won 4 of the 5 games we played. Lost 1 due to SD and game 5 he was already at 160%. It wasn't like it was an unstoppable strategy, but it was so annoying to deal with.

 

[Karsticles]

I hadn't read this I believe. If Yoshi is just waiting, then you can just charge Shadow Balls and N-Air through him like you've said before. If what you mean is he spaces aerials and such then charge your ball then space them back and wait for SB punishes.

I normally have an easier time dealing with defensive playstyles than I do with offensive. In general defensive playstyles allow Mewtwo to space himself well and charge Shadow Ball which are his 2 greatest tools, offensive playstyles take away both of Mewtwo's best tools in neutral.




Anyways I came to ask:

How would you guy go about dealing with Shulk's Shield Monado? I fought a Shulk yesterday who I was clearly better than. Every game I would get him to kill % when I was just at 30-40%. This Shulk though is quite efficient at Shulking, he changes his monado arts on the fly and knows how to art cancel (going as far as being able to change monado arts during his grab animation, changing to the correct art depending on whether he landed the grab or not).



The biggest problem for me was, he would switch to Shield Monado. Now normally this isn't a problem, because Shield Monado is extremely slow and easily kited. But the thing is, Mewtwo kills from the top, and Shield Monado excels at stopping that. U-Throw won't kill until about 230%, U-Smash until about 190%. Once Shield Monado dropped, he would either go Speed or Jump and just run/jump around not allowing me to get in. Slowly we would poke at each other when he was in Shield Mode, and I would try to get in when he was in Speed/Jump, being confident that he was at kill %, I was very low % and that he deals less damage in Speed/Jump.

Still slowly he would poke me up to 70% at which point, with all the rage he had, any Smash would kill me. It was impossible for me to catch him during Speed/Jump with an U-Smash or Grab and he kept spacing me out during Shield mode with his D-Tilt and Pivot F-Tilts (not hitting me, but keeping those up as walls so I couldn't get in).

I managed to beat him 2 games, SDed a 3rd (I also got a sourspot spike offstage on this game too, it was so sad) that I should have won and lost game 5 due to rolling into his U-Smash at 70% (he was close to 160%).

My own strategy of just kiting around him was actually beating his "strategy", but honestly it was A LOT of effort for very little gain. I was basically chipping away little by little (Shield Monado takes 40% less damage too) until he was at 160% or trying to go all ham on the last 3 seconds of Shield Mode (so it would run out during pummel/throw animation). Once I was at 70%+ I would stop trying to go in during Jump or Speed because I realized that's what he wanted me to do, to let my guard down or get desperate when he was just kiting me.

Is there any advice to dealing with this?

I use the time Shulk is in shield to pile on the damage. Shulk is very easy to punish in this form. I go for a grab before the art wears off, and I hold him until it does. Then I uthrow.

There are no SB punishes on a good zoning Yoshi. His up B always props him up just high enough that he glides over it. A good Yoshi can consistently do this on reaction.

 

[Chiroz]

I use the time Shulk is in shield to pile on the damage. Shulk is very easy to punish in this form. I go for a grab before the art wears off, and I hold him until it does. Then I uthrow.

There are no SB punishes on a good zoning Yoshi. His up B always props him up just high enough that he glides over it. A good Yoshi can consistently do this on reaction.

You're supposed to throw Shadow Ball on reaction to his jump right when you expect him to throw an aerial. If you think he's not going for an aerial and instead will go for the "dodge" then just F-Air him.

Yoshi has no aerial that ends before frame 30 (the time it would take Shadow Ball to reach him) so it's all about how scared he is to get hit by the ball. It's not "punishing" him per say, it's more of an understanding what move he's about to do. If it's a defensive playstyle as you say it doesn't matter if you lose the SB as you can charge it again.

Also you can punish a landing F-Air with Shadow Ball. If you see Yoshi do Full Hop F-Air he's probably either going to land with N-Air or another F-Air. Both of those landings Shadow Ball can catch, if you think he's going for the empty jump into Double Jump/Egg Throw as soon as he sees Shadow Ball then just F-Air him.

I know this all sounds easier in theory than it is in practice, but you should just go for the safer options. Yoshi playing defensively and not going in allows you to opt for better spacing and Shadow Balls which are unpunisheable even if you miss. You only have to worry of being on point with your zoning ability and wary of Yoshi's Egg Throw.




I did pile a lot of damage on Shulk but he doesn't die until 190% from U-Smash and 230% from U-Throw (no rage). Also a good Shulk that sees his timer about to run out will understand that you will try and go for a kill, cancel shield and go into a "kiting" monado as soon as he sees you go aggressive.

I mean those are good tips, but those are both of the things I was already doing in my match. This Shulk understood that as long as he stayed away from me during the 8 second Monado timer once he was in Shield he basically had 1 extra stock. The rage he had also completely negated Shield Monado's damage/KB decrease. He literally killed me at 70% from an D-Smash from mid stage while on Shield Stance and killed me at like 50-60% from an U-Smash (Halberd though) also in Shield Stance. It's kind of hard to deal with racking damage when I have to rack 200%+ damage and he only has to get me to 50% with 4 or 5 hits.

There has to be an easier solution than just: "kite him and rack up damage slowly". I guess I was already told to try and go for combos since his weight allows for combos that wouldn't be possible. I have to admit when he was in Shield mode I actually went into heavy spacing/zoning. Utilizing D-Tilt, BSBs, Grabs, Rolls and Teleports to a major extent. I kept beating him by far at the zoning game, I always had him at 160% when I was at 60%, but that 60% is enough for him to kill me, while 160% is not enough for me to kill him.

I didn't think of just treating him as if he was at 0% and comboing him anew, maybe that will make the damage racking much easier. I will try doing that next time (Plus I also dislike going for the heavy camping Mewtwo style of play, it's just not my style).

Note that I don't think Shulk is hard. I was winning by a big margin 4 of the 5 games. It's just that I was putting in way too much effort vs how little effort Shulk actually had to do. The only "good play" he did in our matches was that last U-Smash he got which he "read me" pretty well. I am still salty about that U-Smash because I rolled by mistake. I had already rolled 3 times to get past him and I thought: "He'll expect a roll, so I'll just jump out of my shield (which I was currently holding) and teleport past him", apparently the jump didn't register so I ended up rolling and he read it since I had already rolled 3 times by then. He was at 160% too, so close to 200% where I could just go for the U-Throw since it was Halberd.



This was losers semis too and I would have faced a Falcon that lost to me in friendlies right before the tourney, beat me 3-1 in winners semis (although I SDed at 0% on game 4 and I still managed to get him to last stock, kill % with only one of my stocks) and then lost 2 games to me in friendlies after the tourney. I am confident that there was a good chance I could have beaten the Falcon and gone to Grand Finals (where I know I would have lost, but at least I would have gotten 2nd instead of 4th). So salty, lol.

 

[---]

Is this thread on a schedule anymore or what? I don't see Spirst hanging out here much recently.

Not that big into match up discussion myself, but I can transfer the OP over to whoever might be interested.

 

[Chiroz]

Is this thread on a schedule anymore or what? I don't see Spirst hanging out here much recently.

Not that big into match up discussion myself, but I can transfer the OP over to whoever might be interested.

I guess I could sort of organize the Mewtwo boards. I hang around here so much anyways, lol.

Right now this thread is basically just a "general matchup thread" from the looks of it.

I think now that Mewtwo is much more understood it is possible to move onto real discussion of the matchups and make an organized weekly matchup thread.

 

[---]

If it has become a general match up thread, I'll un-sticky it and leave it open for general discussion (as to lock the specific match up threads), while a new thread takes over weekly discussion. IDK works for the MM board.

Just let me know when you finish getting it together and I'll sticky it.

 

[TheWozny]

I've been working on Mewtwo for a while now, and I feel like two characters that absolutely DESTROY him are Meta knight and Marth... Meta Knight is is quick, he combos/kills Mewtwo very well, and Mewtwo can't really do anything to hurt him back.. Marth on the other hand spaces out Mewtwo very well, and can almost infinite him with the right combination of side b and jab combinations, killing him with a tippered Up or Forward Smash very early... and advice for these matchups?

 

[Karsticles]

I've been working on Mewtwo for a while now, and I feel like two characters that absolutely DESTROY him are Meta knight and Marth... Meta Knight is is quick, he combos/kills Mewtwo very well, and Mewtwo can't really do anything to hurt him back.. Marth on the other hand spaces out Mewtwo very well, and can almost infinite him with the right combination of side b and jab combinations, killing him with a tippered Up or Forward Smash very early... and advice for these matchups?

Metaknight destroy me, but Marth is all about you shielding and going for dtilt. You just have to patiently space him out on the ground. He wins aerial exchanges.

 

[RayNoire]

You know, I used to believe in the Falcon matchup.

I no longer do.