Meta Pokemon Stadium - Mewtwo General Matchup Thread

[Y2Kay]

wow, no posts since September.......

let's dust 'er up and get going again, this is a new day and a new mewtwo!

 

[Sonicninja115]

Sonicninja115 sure! Okay guys, I have been having trouble with cloud and I'd like some thoughts on the MU. Cloud outranges M2 and has just insane kill power (Limit down b anyone?) I know he just came out but what does everyone think?

One bit of advice I have is to remember that he relies on aerials for pretty much everything. So perfect shielding into JC Usmash is amazing against him.

Shield completely negates down B.

Confusion is good against standard B

His recovery sucks. Hit him with any level of SB offstage and he is probably dead.

 

[Y2Kay]

We also have the mobility advantage over him. 3rd best air speed and 11th best ground speed

 

[Sonicninja115]

We also have the mobility advantage over him. 3rd best air speed and 11th best ground speed

What is his ground speed like? It loos to be as fast as Shieks, if not faster.

 

[Ridel]

I pretty much only played Cloud VS Mewtwo yesterday and I can say with good confidence that Mewtwo loses imo. Cloud's range, kill power, and punish game can just cheese out kills on M2 if you make one mistake. The MU is very doable and it probably will get better as time goes on and we understand Cloud better but I still feel that Cloud can put in less effort then M2 overall.

Cloud's punish game is the big kicker here and I'm not just talking about his down-b but any move his really easy for Cloud to punish. Doing anything laggy or hit Cloud's shield with something other then tipped d-tilts is deadly. This is mainly due to his ridiculous range and decent oos options (Cloud's d-tilt, dash attack, grab, up-b, and even b-air can punish oos). So since these didn't work I thought camping and poking with Shadow Balls would be the way to go. Ohh wait his has a projectile too; luckily uncharged SBs will negate his but this still leaves you unable to lang any hits without getting in his danger zone. But the Coud's best and most potent punish tool is his u-air, this thing wrecks poor M2. U-air can punish our air dodges and even a slight overextend on a combo just because it comes out frame 6 and scoops you upward. If you hit with a weak hit u-tilt and try to link it to another he can just u-air out of it and can start linking them together. Also jab -> d-tilt won't work because of u-air so link into a grab instead. D-air can also stop our juggles just because it stays out for a long time and it very large in size.

Now let's talk kill power. Cloud's kill power is kind of BS imo, and i'm not talking about LB's. His f-smash is the main offender here, it can kill M2 at 60% near the ledge which sounds a little dumb on paper but it quickly becomes apparent that that is absolutely the case. F-smash's first active frame is 19 and that's not to bad for and f-smash of that power but the main issue comes with how the works. First off Cloud reels back slight which shortens hit hurtbox in front of you. Second the move hit's multiple times so if you let go of that shield button or spot dodge you will get hit. And lastly the thing has a ton shield stun. This is what really makes this move a pain in the ass to deal with as M2. In all my matches yesterday I could not for the life of me punish this move no matter what it's just really safe on M2 and that's because M2 oos are poor and not because the move is OP or something stupid. That being said I still think a noncommittal move that kills that early is a little ridiculous luckily I only feel this is an M2 thing so no need to nerf it as of now. He also has Limit Break which increases the kill power of his specials the one I found the most annoying to deal with was his neutral-b. This is probably just do to my lack of knowledge on the projectiles properties so it's not a big issue but it's something to look out for since you can reflect it. I think as times goes on though his LB up-b might become deadly, but overall I feel that Cloud's will save it for recovery as it will negate the one thing we have over him and that's edge-guarding.

Speaking of edge-guarding let's talk about that. This is the main thing we have over Cloud and is the most optimal situation to put him in. Yeah I can say with out a shadow of a doubt we wreck Cloud off stage he just can't do anything to contest out meaty hitboxes now more then ever since they got buffed. This is how you want to kill Cloud as trying to kill him vertically will take forever and a half since Cloud is just heavy enough avoid an u-throw till around 130%-140%. F-air, f-throw, and b-throw are your main tools to get him off stage. Once off stage I found n-air and b-air to be super good at catching him and throwing him just out of up-b range. Now what if he has a LB on deck? Simply don't go out and edge-guard him it will be much better to try and read a get-up option and put him back in the off stage scenario. Because of this avoid Smashville and T&C when fighting him mainly since their platforms can somtimes save them. Also avoid Duck Hunt since Cloud can wall-jump off the sides to aid in his recovery. Pick Battlefield or FD (just not omega's with walls) so he can't have any way to extend his recovery. Also if it's still legal take him to Lylat, the tilting stage can really **** with him.

Overall my experience with this MU hasn't been pleasant but I expect my capitalization on edge-guards will get better and I will better understand his janky hitboxes. That being said though I still feel M2 needs to put in a lot more effort for the same effect as Cloud who can do it will medium to little.

40-60 is my number, could become 45-55 if it takes a turn for the best.

 

[Y2Kay]

What is his ground speed like? It loos to be as fast as Shieks, if not faster.

He's got the third best air mobility behind puff and 10th best run speed tied with Metaknight.

Not too shabby if do say so myself

 

[Sonicninja115]

You have to take control of the match. Pressure his landing options and outpace him as well as possible. Juggling him isn't too hard and his recovery is easy to gimp.

Also, Cloud'OoS options aren't fantastic, so Fair is good on shield.

 

[Ridel]

You have to take control of the match. Pressure his landing options and outpace him as well as possible. Juggling him isn't too hard and his recovery is easy to gimp.

Also, Cloud'OoS options aren't fantastic, so Fair is good on shield.

The big thing that stops my juggles is that u-air. It just scoops you up.

 

[Sonicninja115]

The big thing that stops my juggles is that u-air. It just scoops you up.

Uair juggles, and if he airdodge's a Uair too close to the ground, then punish really hard.

 

[TheRealSkid]

I have played cloud players a bit more and I can definitely say that if you are able to dodge moves like the dair on the ground or roll his f smash then cloud can also get punished really hard.

 

[Browny]

I don't feel like doing any work today

I pretty much only played Cloud VS Mewtwo yesterday and I can say with good confidence that Mewtwo loses imo. Cloud's range, kill power, and punish game can just cheese out kills on M2 if you make one mistake.

Suggesting that Cloud has a range advantage on mewtwo is simply wrong, he doesnt. Mewtwo isnt the sort of character that trades hits anyway hes a defensive wall and clouds approaching moves dont have that great range to combat dtilt or shadowball. Lets not forget how far shadowclaw now hits.

Secondly, clouds punish game is average at best. His upb oos has awful kill power and is somewhat risky. Finishing touch is frame 16, its not a punish move its a read move. His only real strong punish is limit break sideb and neutral b which is a risky thing to do since he sacrifices his recovery to use it. Mewtwo suffers to punishes which are able to get past his range and KO him or grab kills. Outside of limit break sideb, Cloud is a poor character at punishing, many characters in the game have faster and stronger moves to punish with.

Cloud's punish game is the big kicker here and I'm not just talking about his down-b but any move his really easy for Cloud to punish. Doing anything laggy or hit Cloud's shield with something other then tipped d-tilts is deadly. This is mainly due to his ridiculous range and decent oos options (Cloud's d-tilt, dash attack, grab, up-b, and even b-air can punish oos).

dtilt and upb are his only acceptable oos options and they arent 'deadly'. Remember, saying that cloud has such strong oos options is saying that he is comparable to the likes of ZSS, bowser, ness, mario and other characters who will kill you pretty easily and safely for touching their shield. Clouds oos punish are average at best with 0 kill power and a lot of risk. upb has really good range but thats it. dtilt oos is a questionable option vs someone like mewtwo who can punish that extremely hard if its sheilded.

So since these didn't work I thought camping and poking with Shadow Balls would be the way to go. Ohh wait his has a projectile too; luckily uncharged SBs will negate his but this still leaves you unable to lang any hits without getting in his danger zone. But the Coud's best and most potent punish tool is his u-air, this thing wrecks poor M2. U-air can punish our air dodges and even a slight overextend on a combo just because it comes out frame 6 and scoops you upward. If you hit with a weak hit u-tilt and try to link it to another he can just u-air out of it and can start linking them together. Also jab -> d-tilt won't work because of u-air so link into a grab instead. D-air can also stop our juggles just because it stays out for a long time and it very large in size.

There is no reason why Cloud should be juggling Mewtwo. Mewtwo is so fast in the air and with sideb hop theres no reason for people to be getting juggled. Clouds uair is so dangerous there is no excuse for challenging it and losing. Recover offstage or teleport into the ground or something, don't fight it. Suddenly the move becomes a lot less threatening when you are using your evasiveness to avoid it at all costs.

As for juggling cloud, dont. Camp his landings. Cloud has very bad landing options. Like... really bad. He has no momentum shifting move and a laggy as hell dair. Only his fair is decent. Just wait for him to land and throw full shadowballs at his feet or dash grab/dash attack/usmash. Mewtwo shouldnt juggle anyone except like, Jigglypuff.

Theres no way that his uair stops jab-dtilt, yet cant stop jab to grab since the dtilt is faster.

Now let's talk kill power. Cloud's kill power is kind of BS imo, and i'm not talking about LB's. His f-smash is the main offender here, it can kill M2 at 60% near the ledge which sounds a little dumb on paper but it quickly becomes apparent that that is absolutely the case. F-smash's first active frame is 19 and that's not to bad for and f-smash of that power but the main issue comes with how the works. First off Cloud reels back slight which shortens hit hurtbox in front of you. Second the move hit's multiple times so if you let go of that shield button or spot dodge you will get hit. And lastly the thing has a ton shield stun. This is what really makes this move a pain in the *** to deal with as M2. In all my matches yesterday I could not for the life of me punish this move no matter what it's just really safe on M2 and that's because M2 oos are poor and not because the move is OP or something stupid. That being said I still think a noncommittal move that kills that early is a little ridiculous luckily I only feel this is an M2 thing so no need to nerf it as of now. He also has Limit Break which increases the kill power of his specials the one I found the most annoying to deal with was his neutral-b. This is probably just do to my lack of knowledge on the projectiles properties so it's not a big issue but it's something to look out for since you can reflect it. I think as times goes on though his LB up-b might become deadly, but overall I feel that Cloud's will save it for recovery as it will negate the one thing we have over him and that's edge-guarding.

You're really overstating his fsmash here. Frame 19 is a slow fsmash, same as falcons. It has 36 frames of endlag. You can't just say the move is unpunishable when it has such a massive amount of endlag and the shield stun is SIGNIFICANTLY less that fsmashes like falcons due to the final hit of clouds only doing 13%. I'm calculating a -27 frame advantage. 7 to shield drop, you have 20 frames to do what you want to him. Disable and charge a usmash as a gift to him fsmashing your shield.

Speaking of edge-guarding let's talk about that. This is the main thing we have over Cloud and is the most optimal situation to put him in. Yeah I can say with out a shadow of a doubt we wreck Cloud off stage he just can't do anything to contest out meaty hitboxes now more then ever since they got buffed. This is how you want to kill Cloud as trying to kill him vertically will take forever and a half since Cloud is just heavy enough avoid an u-throw till around 130%-140%. F-air, f-throw, and b-throw are your main tools to get him off stage. Once off stage I found n-air and b-air to be super good at catching him and throwing him just out of up-b range. Now what if he has a LB on deck? Simply don't go out and edge-guard him it will be much better to try and read a get-up option and put him back in the off stage scenario. Because of this avoid Smashville and T&C when fighting him mainly since their platforms can somtimes save them. Also avoid Duck Hunt since Cloud can wall-jump off the sides to aid in his recovery. Pick Battlefield or FD (just not omega's with walls) so he can't have any way to extend his recovery. Also if it's still legal take him to Lylat, the tilting stage can really **** with him.

Get cloud off stage and if he has to recover low, throw a full charge shadowball at the ledge as he recovers. Hes dead. Trying to edgeguard him as hes recovering is like running a 50:50 when you can kill him for free by throwing a shadowball at the ledge. Youve got anywhere up to like... a 10 frame window to clip him as he goes over the ledge. If you master this, you'll kill him for free every time.

This absolutely is worth practising over and over its an EXTREMELY strong option, arguably the strongest option any character in this game has against cloud in any situation.

If he is recovering high, throw a shadowball at his feet as he lands. Then repeat.

Overall my experience with this MU hasn't been pleasant but I expect my capitalization on edge-guards will get better and I will better understand his janky hitboxes. That being said though I still feel M2 needs to put in a lot more effort for the same effect as Cloud who can do it will medium to little.

40-60 is my number, could become 45-55 if it takes a turn for the best.

Thanks for the write up but I think there are 2 fundamental things you need to change about the way you are approaching this matchup and it will change the way you see it.

First; stop giving so much respect to Clouds fsmash and disable him if he hits your shield. If you convert every failed fsmash punish into a disable -> charged smash attack it sounds like you might be landing 2 of these every stock and that is easily enough to be the difference between winning and losing. His fsmash is good but it is highly punishable while lacking the extreme shield knockback of comparable fsmashes like falcons.

Second; Shadowball his recovery. He should die every time. Every time cloud recovers its because Mewtwo made a mistake. You should be killing him guaranteed every time he goes low and if he recovers high, hit him off again. Cloud has no answer to shadowball as he lands. He cant fair, he cant dodge, he cant counter, he just gets hit.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I don't feel like doing any work today



Suggesting that Cloud has a range advantage on mewtwo is simply wrong, he doesnt. Mewtwo isnt the sort of character that trades hits anyway hes a defensive wall and clouds approaching moves dont have that great range to combat dtilt or shadowball. Lets not forget how far shadowclaw now hits.

Secondly, clouds punish game is average at best. His upb oos has awful kill power and is somewhat risky. Finishing touch is frame 16, its not a punish move its a read move. His only real strong punish is limit break sideb and neutral b which is a risky thing to do since he sacrifices his recovery to use it. Mewtwo suffers to punishes which are able to get past his range and KO him or grab kills. Outside of limit break sideb, Cloud is a poor character at punishing, many characters in the game have faster and stronger moves to punish with.



dtilt and upb are his only acceptable oos options and they arent 'deadly'. Remember, saying that cloud has such strong oos options is saying that he is comparable to the likes of ZSS, bowser, ness, mario and other characters who will kill you pretty easily and safely for touching their shield. Clouds oos punish are average at best with 0 kill power and a lot of risk. upb has really good range but thats it. dtilt oos is a questionable option vs someone like mewtwo who can punish that extremely hard if its sheilded.



There is no reason why Cloud should be juggling Mewtwo. Mewtwo is so fast in the air and with sideb hop theres no reason for people to be getting juggled. Clouds uair is so dangerous there is no excuse for challenging it and losing. Recover offstage or teleport into the ground or something, don't fight it. Suddenly the move becomes a lot less threatening when you are using your evasiveness to avoid it at all costs.

As for juggling cloud, dont. Camp his landings. Cloud has very bad landing options. Like... really bad. He has no momentum shifting move and a laggy as hell dair. Only his fair is decent. Just wait for him to land and throw full shadowballs at his feet or dash grab/dash attack/usmash. Mewtwo shouldnt juggle anyone except like, Jigglypuff.

Theres no way that his uair stops jab-dtilt, yet cant stop jab to grab since the dtilt is faster.



You're really overstating his fsmash here. Frame 19 is a slow fsmash, same as falcons. It has 36 frames of endlag. You can't just say the move is unpunishable when it has such a massive amount of endlag and the shield stun is SIGNIFICANTLY less that fsmashes like falcons due to the final hit of clouds only doing 13%. I'm calculating a -27 frame advantage. 7 to shield drop, you have 20 frames to do what you want to him. Disable and charge a usmash as a gift to him fsmashing your shield.



Get cloud off stage and if he has to recover low, throw a full charge shadowball at the ledge as he recovers. Hes dead. Trying to edgeguard him as hes recovering is like running a 50:50 when you can kill him for free by throwing a shadowball at the ledge. Youve got anywhere up to like... a 10 frame window to clip him as he goes over the ledge. If you master this, you'll kill him for free every time.

This absolutely is worth practising over and over its an EXTREMELY strong option, arguably the strongest option any character in this game has against cloud in any situation.

If he is recovering high, throw a shadowball at his feet as he lands. Then repeat.



Thanks for the write up but I think there are 2 fundamental things you need to change about the way you are approaching this matchup and it will change the way you see it.

First; stop giving so much respect to Clouds fsmash and disable him if he hits your shield. If you convert every failed fsmash punish into a disable -> charged smash attack it sounds like you might be landing 2 of these every stock and that is easily enough to be the difference between winning and losing. His fsmash is good but it is highly punishable while lacking the extreme shield knockback of comparable fsmashes like falcons.

Second; Shadowball his recovery. He should die every time. Every time cloud recovers its because Mewtwo made a mistake. You should be killing him guaranteed every time he goes low and if he recovers high, hit him off again. Cloud has no answer to shadowball as he lands. He cant fair, he cant dodge, he cant counter, he just gets hit.

Wow, that is a long list...

I agree with a good portion of it, but one thing is that Cloud's Uair is a really good frame trap against Mewtwo and Mewtwo can die really early to Cloud, thus, people say he has a good punish game. People usually say that about any character that kills early.

 

[Ridel]

I don't feel like doing any work today



Suggesting that Cloud has a range advantage on mewtwo is simply wrong, he doesnt. Mewtwo isnt the sort of character that trades hits anyway hes a defensive wall and clouds approaching moves dont have that great range to combat dtilt or shadowball. Lets not forget how far shadowclaw now hits.

Secondly, clouds punish game is average at best. His upb oos has awful kill power and is somewhat risky. Finishing touch is frame 16, its not a punish move its a read move. His only real strong punish is limit break sideb and neutral b which is a risky thing to do since he sacrifices his recovery to use it. Mewtwo suffers to punishes which are able to get past his range and KO him or grab kills. Outside of limit break sideb, Cloud is a poor character at punishing, many characters in the game have faster and stronger moves to punish with.



dtilt and upb are his only acceptable oos options and they arent 'deadly'. Remember, saying that cloud has such strong oos options is saying that he is comparable to the likes of ZSS, bowser, ness, mario and other characters who will kill you pretty easily and safely for touching their shield. Clouds oos punish are average at best with 0 kill power and a lot of risk. upb has really good range but thats it. dtilt oos is a questionable option vs someone like mewtwo who can punish that extremely hard if its sheilded.



There is no reason why Cloud should be juggling Mewtwo. Mewtwo is so fast in the air and with sideb hop theres no reason for people to be getting juggled. Clouds uair is so dangerous there is no excuse for challenging it and losing. Recover offstage or teleport into the ground or something, don't fight it. Suddenly the move becomes a lot less threatening when you are using your evasiveness to avoid it at all costs.

As for juggling cloud, dont. Camp his landings. Cloud has very bad landing options. Like... really bad. He has no momentum shifting move and a laggy as hell dair. Only his fair is decent. Just wait for him to land and throw full shadowballs at his feet or dash grab/dash attack/usmash. Mewtwo shouldnt juggle anyone except like, Jigglypuff.

Theres no way that his uair stops jab-dtilt, yet cant stop jab to grab since the dtilt is faster.



You're really overstating his fsmash here. Frame 19 is a slow fsmash, same as falcons. It has 36 frames of endlag. You can't just say the move is unpunishable when it has such a massive amount of endlag and the shield stun is SIGNIFICANTLY less that fsmashes like falcons due to the final hit of clouds only doing 13%. I'm calculating a -27 frame advantage. 7 to shield drop, you have 20 frames to do what you want to him. Disable and charge a usmash as a gift to him fsmashing your shield.



Get cloud off stage and if he has to recover low, throw a full charge shadowball at the ledge as he recovers. Hes dead. Trying to edgeguard him as hes recovering is like running a 50:50 when you can kill him for free by throwing a shadowball at the ledge. Youve got anywhere up to like... a 10 frame window to clip him as he goes over the ledge. If you master this, you'll kill him for free every time.

This absolutely is worth practising over and over its an EXTREMELY strong option, arguably the strongest option any character in this game has against cloud in any situation.

If he is recovering high, throw a shadowball at his feet as he lands. Then repeat.



Thanks for the write up but I think there are 2 fundamental things you need to change about the way you are approaching this matchup and it will change the way you see it.

First; stop giving so much respect to Clouds fsmash and disable him if he hits your shield. If you convert every failed fsmash punish into a disable -> charged smash attack it sounds like you might be landing 2 of these every stock and that is easily enough to be the difference between winning and losing. His fsmash is good but it is highly punishable while lacking the extreme shield knockback of comparable fsmashes like falcons.

Second; Shadowball his recovery. He should die every time. Every time cloud recovers its because Mewtwo made a mistake. You should be killing him guaranteed every time he goes low and if he recovers high, hit him off again. Cloud has no answer to shadowball as he lands. He cant fair, he cant dodge, he cant counter, he just gets hit.

Revaluating my write-up I'm actually able to pin point why I "assumed" these claims. Two words Online Lag. I forgot the big factor that online makes certain things much easier i.e punishing. Also this was only after two hours of game play so that plus contributing lag made it much harder then it seems. Thank you for responding and clearing up any misconceptions I was hoping to get other opinions on the matter.

I may upload some matches of my M2 VS my friends Cloud so I can get some advice cause I seems to be struggling against him with my main main Ludwing.

Also how would you suggest improving SB aim? I really suck at it.

 

[Browny]

I figured it was wifi, its going to make punishing anything harder.

SB isnt about aiming, its about timing. Luckily with clouds poor horizontal reach on his upb it means you should be able to easily predict when he is going to upb to within a fraction of a second. If cloud uses the upb early hes still going to get hit as he hangs for a moment before coming back down.

Stand as close as you can do the edge where you dont get hit by his upb and try to predict it. You should be able to practice this against a CPU by constantly throwing them off with bthrow or something so they are forced to use upb and learn the timing.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Try to predict Clouds Limit usage, if you can reflect standard B, woo.

Down B and Up B are pretty predictable, and standard B can be reflected. Try to break limit, it ruins him.

Also, pressure him with SB if he tries to get his limit up.

 

[meleebrawler]

inb4 you realize Finishing Touch is basically a flashier version of Disable...

Also mind his dair as it does leave a lingering disjoint.

 

[Ridel]

Well **** I completely forgot Disable was a move.

I figured it was wifi, its going to make punishing anything harder.

SB isnt about aiming, its about timing. Luckily with clouds poor horizontal reach on his upb it means you should be able to easily predict when he is going to upb to within a fraction of a second. If cloud uses the upb early hes still going to get hit as he hangs for a moment before coming back down.

Stand as close as you can do the edge where you dont get hit by his upb and try to predict it. You should be able to practice this against a CPU by constantly throwing them off with bthrow or something so they are forced to use upb and learn the timing.

Ahh I see my issue I'm not close enough to the ledge to properly punish. My main method before was to throw an uncharged/semi-charged SB to bait out an air dodge then catch them low with a n-air. Your method is much more practical.

 

[Browny]

Me and @Metros just found 2 hilariously good counters to cloudes upb and his sideb (not limit break version), rendering them almost useless. Uploading a video soon.

prepare yourselves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiJagYXR55A

You see that Ray? Thats what happens when people study the game instead complaining all the time. Just think, it took us less time to discover and test that then it does for you to write one of your mewtwo hate posts here or on reddit!

 

[Sonicninja115]

inb4 you realize Finishing Touch is basically a flashier version of Disable...

Also mind his dair as it does leave a lingering disjoint.

Disable is only lacking in range. It starts faster, ends faster and might even have better horizontal range.

 

[Aninymouse]

So I wrote a think about Mewtwo vs. Ike on the Ike boards. I'm no expert, but I do use both characters the most out of the cast, so I tried to be helpful. Copy/pasted:

I haven't had enough Ike vs. Mewtwo battles to really give meaningful input yet, but I do use both of these characters the most out of the roster.

My initial gut reaction is that Mewtwo can now play footsies with Ike due to the massively buffed walk/run speed and lightning-quick Dtilt. If Mewtwo can land a Dtilt, he can easily take Ike from 0-57% at least. That's about halfway to kill % off one combo. Never forget that, depending on the stage, Mewto's Uthrow is a kill confirm at some point past 100%. I don't know the exact %s, sorry. Ike is heavy, so that increases the usual kill % I'm used to worrying about.

Meanwhile, Ike can kill Mewtwo super early, especially off up throw combos and reads, or Bair near the ledge, Eruption 2-frame reads, randy Usmashes, etc. Ike can end Mewtwo rather quickly, and nearly all of Ike's best options are out of Dthrow or Uthrow, so Mewtwo players have to be on-point in neutral, watch their spacing, mix things up, and NOT linger in shield.

In the air, Ike can out-range Mewto most of the time, but Mewtwo's Nair has an incredibly long-lasting hitbox(es) than can easily punish air dodges and lead to huge combos. Mewtwo has a long reach in the air as well, with Fair, Bair, and Uair all reaching out a good bit, and comboing into each other, depending on %.

Shadow Ball can lead to a lot of cheese vs. Aether (in other words, free %), so Ike mains need to be on-point about mixing up recovery and sweetspotting the ledge as best they can. Mewtwo's Dsmash is very powerful and hits below the ledge, so it is basically like Ike's Eruption in that it is a fantastic punish for ledge snap recoveries. Sharking Mewtwo under the stage with Aether is important, but you can't do it all the time for fear of eating a Shadow Ball.

Mewtwo's Usmash can catch you on the ground, and tends to suck people in. While it is every bit as laggy as Ike's Usmash, its hitbox lasts even longer and is stationary, so it can be deceptive and pulls you in from weird angles. Due to Mewtwo's massively buffed running speed, sliding Usmash now slides A LOT, which can be a big problem for you guys if you are above Mewtwo.

Due to Mewtwo' speed increase, I would think Ike's falling Bair/ SH Bair are even more important.

I think Ike has a much faster grab than Mewtwo, so pivot grabs from Ike are very important, as well as using grab to punish. All of Ike's scariest conversions are off of grabs (and aerial hits in general).

Ike's dash attack is great for neutral punishes, and has a crazy range, but Mewtwo's dash attack is lightning-quick!

Finally, even though Confusion does not combo into anything for Mewtwo, it has just as much range as Ike's Fair does, deals 9%, and resets back to neutral, so it can be annoying if the Mewtwo player is better at aerial spacing. On the ground, if you don't react fast enough, this can lead to a jab lock, Disable, and a free smash attack or throw for Mewtwo. BUT, if you react fast enough, you can get out of it having only taken the 9%.

All in all, I would say the matchup is much more even now.

Once I have more matchup experience, I think I will be able to offer better advice. Cheers, fellow Ikes. Also, give Mewtwo a shot if you haven't already and you want a second/pocket character. Mewtwo feels much, much more fun than he did before.

 

[Aninymouse]

As for Mewtwo vs. Cloud... Cloud is brand new, so people still suck with him. Izaw seems to be ahead of the curve, though. WATCH OUT for frame cancelled Fair combos! If Mewtwo gets caught by the first active frame of FAir just as Cloud lands, Cloud gets to have his way with Mewtwo. That's perhaps Cloud's best weapon, outside of hard reads, so watch out.

]

 

[Sonicninja115]

As for Mewtwo vs. Cloud... Cloud is brand new, so people still suck with him. Izaw seems to be ahead of the curve, though. WATCH OUT for frame cancelled Fair combos! If Mewtwo gets caught by the first active frame of FAir just as Cloud lands, Cloud gets to have his way with Mewtwo. That's perhaps Cloud's best weapon, outside of hard reads, so watch out.

]

The problem with frame cancelled moves is their difficulty. PP is a bit harder, but it has more use.

 

[meleebrawler]

If Cloud's going to seriously space with any aerial, it's gonna be bair.

 

[Aninymouse]

The problem with frame cancelled moves is their difficulty. PP is a bit harder, but it has more use.

It's hard to frame cancel, but it represents the top tier of character ability. I feel like it is a worthy consideration.

If frame cancelled Fair is so far the best thing Cloud has to offer, why not familiarize yourself with it, is my view. Especially since, unlike Falco, a lot of people are hyped about Cloud, so his meta will progress faster than Falco's has.

 

[Sonicninja115]

It's hard to frame cancel, but it represents the top tier of character ability. I feel like it is a worthy consideration.

If frame cancelled Fair is so far the best thing Cloud has to offer, why not familiarize yourself with it, is my view. Especially since, unlike Falco, a lot of people are hyped about Cloud, so his meta will progress faster than Falco's has.

Technically most characters have a move that frame cancels, but I get your point.

 

[RayNoire]

Me and @Metros just found 2 hilariously good counters to cloudes upb and his sideb (not limit break version), rendering them almost useless. Uploading a video soon.

prepare yourselves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiJagYXR55A

You see that Ray? Thats what happens when people study the game instead complaining all the time. Just think, it took us less time to discover and test that then it does for you to write one of your mewtwo hate posts here or on reddit!

Lmao I don't even post here anymore and you're still obsessed. Hilarious.

Also it's very well known that Cloud's Side-B whiffs, and it's not Mewtwo-specific. So congrats on your groundbreaking find that you can punish bad moves.

Anyway, just dropping in to share my current thoughts on our MUs. Subject to change as always, and I'd be happy to explain any of the numbers. http://smashcompendium.com/matchup-chart/ndmwbctelsoqzxak/

 

[Sonicninja115]

Lmao I don't even post here anymore and you're still obsessed. Hilarious.

Also it's very well known that Cloud's Side-B whiffs, and it's not Mewtwo-specific. So congrats on your groundbreaking find that you can punish bad moves.

Anyway, just dropping in to share my current thoughts on our MUs. Subject to change as always, and I'd be happy to explain any of the numbers. http://smashcompendium.com/matchup-chart/ndmwbctelsoqzxak/

I am surprised that you put the Charizard MU as 70/30, why is this so? I thought it was rather good for Mewtwo.

I assume you mean custom Mii Brawler?

I understand why the ZSS MU is 60/40, but why is the Shiek? Do we have something on her? Can we punish her aerials with Dtilt? I can think of a couple of things in our favor, but it seems that Shiek would do a bit better, especially if Metaknight is 80/20( understandable) and Mario is 70/30 (not quite as understandable, but your training partner mains Mario so you would know better.

It is quite annoying how some things go, it took me a while to get on MB's good side, and the people lurking on the Diddy boards are hilarious.

 

[Aninymouse]

Dude, personally I think Mario is really good against Mewtwo. The cape, the moves that come out mega-fast, and Mario's size and Dsmash/Usmash all make him pretty formidable for lanky Mr. Mewtwo, I think.

 

[RayNoire]

I am surprised that you put the Charizard MU as 70/30, why is this so? I thought it was rather good for Mewtwo.

I assume you mean custom Mii Brawler?

I understand why the ZSS MU is 60/40, but why is the Shiek? Do we have something on her? Can we punish her aerials with Dtilt? I can think of a couple of things in our favor, but it seems that Shiek would do a bit better, especially if Metaknight is 80/20( understandable) and Mario is 70/30 (not quite as understandable, but your training partner mains Mario so you would know better.

It is quite annoying how some things go, it took me a while to get on MB's good side, and the people lurking on the Diddy boards are hilarious.

As a general rule, heavies suck for Mewtwo more than it seems like they should. We have similar frame data and hurtboxes and we're so much lighter. We can combo them but only to a point; past 70% it gets frustrating.

Enter Charizard and Rock Smash, or more the threat of Rock Smash. Many of our best combo options are 99% true; f3 Nairs work but we can outspace them, airdodges get landing trapped, jumps get caught, etc. Dtilt-Fair-FF Uair is one example; many of our jab followups also work this way.

Rock Smash is one of the few options that we really have to respect at all times, because not only does it break our combos--it deals a ridiculous amount of damage too. It's also not as unsafe as it seems, since it can easily shield poke Mewtwo if his shield is even remotely damaged.

Aside from that, Flamethrower's a pain, Jab to Fly is insane, Uthrow exists, and we can't gimp him for free like with Ganon.

Mii Brawler is presuming 2122 medium. TBH I don't agree that it should be legal but it seems to be becoming the standard. 1111 Brawler is much closer to 50-50 and we might actually win (he's still got very good frame data though).

Sheik just boils down to the fact that we get to live long enough to make use of our tools. A Mewtwo that can live to 150% actually feels pretty decent, and I've definitely killed at 60% with rage Disable tech chase after living to 170. Patience is crucial, because you will lose the neutral, and you will spend most of the time in disadvantage, but she won't gimp you, and the times you do win out or even trade will be a big deal. More specifically, Sheiks that like to SH landing Fair (most of them) can be disrupted by SH Fairing their jump. You can also go for Usmash if the Sheik doesn't know the MU (most of them), usually you'll only eat like 10% on a whiff due to Sheik's mid-percent dead zone. It's not a good MU, but in my experience I'd rather fight a decent Sheik than a decent Zard.

 

[Aninymouse]

As a general rule, heavies suck for Mewtwo more than it seems like they should. We have similar frame data and hurtboxes and we're so much lighter. We can combo them but only to a point; past 70% it gets frustrating.

I think this is about right. It can be easy to get someone to about 60 -70% with Mewtwo, but going from 60-70% to kill percent is a crap shoot at times.

 

[Sonicninja115]

So one of the main reasons that heavies are bad for M2 is because they neutralize his glass cannon playstyle? Not sarcastic.

 

[RayNoire]

So one of the main reasons that heavies are bad for M2 is because they neutralize his glass cannon playstyle? Not sarcastic.

Basically, yeah. I guess you could say MUs like Zard and DK take the "Cannon" out of the equation, while Sheik and Pikachu take the "Glass" out of the equation. So even though the latter are frustrating in their own right, they're preferable to the former because their strengths don't override our strengths or really compound our weaknesses.

This is also assuming you play against competent heavies, which are thankfully pretty rare.

 

[Y2Kay]

so you think we lose to marcina and beat Ike? RayNoire

EDIT: Fun fact - the average of your MU ratios is 44:56

 

[RayNoire]

so you think we lose to marcina and beat Ike? RayNoire

EDIT: Fun fact - the average of your MU ratios is 44:56

Yeah. Marcina's SH DB1 kill confirm is just brutal, and they're annoyingly good at hitting us out of strings or Confusion with Fair or Nair. They're also really hard to gimp. Ike is vulnerable to getting Fair chained offstage, and if he's forced to Aether he's probably dead. Ike could be even but in my experience I've felt pretty safe in that MU.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Lmao I don't even post here anymore and you're still obsessed. Hilarious.

Also it's very well known that Cloud's Side-B whiffs, and it's not Mewtwo-specific. So congrats on your groundbreaking find that you can punish bad moves.

Anyway, just dropping in to share my current thoughts on our MUs. Subject to change as always, and I'd be happy to explain any of the numbers. http://smashcompendium.com/matchup-chart/ndmwbctelsoqzxak/

Any reason Rosalina and Ganon are 50 / 50 MUs?

 

[Y2Kay]

Any reason Rosalina and Ganon are 50 / 50 MUs?

I do know that mew2 kills luma pretty efficiently

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Lmao I don't even post here anymore and you're still obsessed. Hilarious.

Also it's very well known that Cloud's Side-B whiffs, and it's not Mewtwo-specific. So congrats on your groundbreaking find that you can punish bad moves.

Anyway, just dropping in to share my current thoughts on our MUs. Subject to change as always, and I'd be happy to explain any of the numbers. http://smashcompendium.com/matchup-chart/ndmwbctelsoqzxak/

I don't agree with a lot of the MUs you have there and woth your general assessment of mewtwo vs heavies.

 

[RayNoire]

Any reason Rosalina and Ganon are 50 / 50 MUs?

Mewtwo doesn't have to adapt too much to Luma since a lot of his tools in neutral put him in tumble (Dtilt, Fair, DA, etc.) Rosalina is also fairly easy to catch with Usmash on landing and other situations, which kills her very early. The flipside is the whole "dying at ungodly % to Uair and also everything else" thing when you don't manage to remove Luma.

I personally HATE HATE HATE the Ganon MU, but I think it's even on paper. It's what I call a Quick-Draw MU--the first player to land a hit is probably going to take a stock. It's like Falcon, but Falcon has a better neutral so that's harder. Ganon's not helpless in neutral though--his Dtilt outranges ours which really disrupts our ground game.

 

[Browny]

I find Rosalina hard as Mewtwo... I win far more often with Jigglypuff in that matchup :/

Ganon, just dont approach him. Ever. Even when you're losing. Baby shadowball as hes recovering - run off and nair gg

 

[Sonicninja115]

Tip for the Pika MU, and others, if you perfect shield the first hit of a multihit move, the entire move will be perfect shielded. This allows people to not be shieldbreaked by Yoshi's Dair as easily, and Pika's Dsmash and Bair/Fair become punishable.