Data Pokemon Battle Strategies: Sm4sh Jigglypuff Matchup Thread (Discussing Ryu)

[Desu~]

I was pretty sure that sonics spindash clashes with Jiggs jab, it kinda happened during the tournament I was yesterday.

Not necessarily a good one, but was okay enough to consider this.

But we would need to make sure if it's really possible to stop the spindash with jab.

But it's true that otherwise, Sonic's mobility just makes it totally hard to approach him, not to forget near impossible to beat his recovery.

 

[Filler Dmon]

A lot of what you say is true except one big thing. Sonic is pretty easy to gimp. His recoery sends him straight up, and has no hitbox or invincibility. It's easy nair bait, and you just keep punishing him until it's too late.

Ah, but-

But it's true that otherwise, Sonic's mobility just makes it totally hard to approach him, not to forget near impossible to beat his recovery.

-yeah, that. True that it has no hitbox and thus is capable of being intercepted, being combined with Sonic's incredible momentum and his easy penchant for aerials from it means that unless he's basically been spiked off the stage in the first place, it's hard to get him into a position where you can just keep him from getting back on entirely, or so has been my experience. If we're doing pros and cons, I'd consider it a mark in both that the recovery itself can be stopped, but that Sonic moves so quickly that getting him in the spot to take advantage of it is difficult in and of itself.

Spoiler: Off Topic to the Sonic discussion, though potentially relevant in the future

Anyone comment on the Rosalina match up for the Rosalina forums? Personally, I feel that one's more 50:50, especially in the light of Sonic, Diddy and Sheik. Rosalina's got the disjointed hitboxes and can be quite dangerous, but is also a larger, slower, more combo-able target, and if baited the way most Jigglypuffs should play, can be put down by someone of equal skill. Gimpable recovery without the momentum to make it hard to take advantage of, moves that aren't quite too nightmarishly fast, and a very light weight when compared to most of the rest of the cast; the biggest issue is really Luma, and with the right spacing it can be taken out even while pressuring Rosalina herself. I know this is a bit of a distraction from the Sonic match up, but I feel bad having not made any comment now that I think about it.

Edit: I see that Codaption was over there, representing a hell of a lot better than my perspective. Good show.

 

[mmkzer0]

Just some Data (incomplete!)
Sonic
- Dashattack Lasthit beats Jiggle's Aerials
- USmash kills At 100%; FSmash At 80% and DSmash At 140% (at the Ledge, uncharged)
- Bthrow kill at 135% (at the Ledge)
- Uair kills at 135%; fair at 175% and Bair at 105% (at the Ledge)
- Utilt at 145%
(With no Rage on Sonic)

Jigglypuff
- DownB kills at 55%
- Bair kills at 90%
(No Rage on Jigglypuff)

Tested on Battlefield (Omega)

 

[Codaption]

A lot of what you say is true except one big thing. Sonic is pretty easy to gimp. His recoery sends him straight up, and has no hitbox or invincibility. It's easy nair bait, and you just keep punishing him until it's too late.

I'm pretty certain he has a window of invincibility while he's rising upwards....

 

[CHOVI]

Spoiler: Off Topic to the Sonic discussion, though potentially relevant in the future

Anyone comment on the Rosalina match up for the Rosalina forums? Personally, I feel that one's more 50:50, especially in the light of Sonic, Diddy and Sheik. Rosalina's got the disjointed hitboxes and can be quite dangerous, but is also a larger, slower, more combo-able target, and if baited the way most Jigglypuffs should play, can be put down by someone of equal skill. Gimpable recovery without the momentum to make it hard to take advantage of, moves that aren't quite too nightmarishly fast, and a very light weight when compared to most of the rest of the cast; the biggest issue is really Luma, and with the right spacing it can be taken out even while pressuring Rosalina herself. I know this is a bit of a distraction from the Sonic match up, but I feel bad having not made any comment now that I think about it.

Edit: I see that Codaption was over there, representing a hell of a lot better than my perspective. Good show.

Yeah, the Rosalina matchup is pretty even in my experience.

 

[Jiggly]

Yeah, the Rosalina matchup is pretty even in my experience.

I think the same thing. I'm gonna have to go over the votes and check it out, but I think it will be posted as 50:50, and the ZSS MU at 55:45

 

[Filler Dmon]

I think the same thing. I'm gonna have to go over the votes and check it out, but I think it will be posted as 50:50, and the ZSS MU at 55:45

Those guys move bloody fast on that board... 3 days per match up and immediately moving on to the next one.

What about us and the Sonic match up? Anything we've neglected or should remark on? Did we bother the Sonic board about it, or are just waiting for the weekend to end before a decision is made on it?

 

[Jiggly]

Those guys move bloody fast on that board... 3 days per match up and immediately moving on to the next one.

What about us and the Sonic match up? Anything we've neglected or should remark on? Did we bother the Sonic board about it, or are just waiting for the weekend to end before a decision is made on it?

I will contact the sonic boards

 

[Codaption]

We haven't contacted the sonic boards already? That seems like one of the FIRST things we should have done.

 

[Jiggly]

We haven't contacted the sonic boards already? That seems like one of the FIRST things we should have done.

I did, but to no avail...

 

[Camalange]

Sonic vs Puff is weird.

I think Sonic wins, but it's a miserable match-up for both players. From the sets I've had, I've never really enjoyed it. Even in Brawl.

Neither character wants to approach... Sonic wants to stay on the ground and Puff wants to stay in the air. The second either one of them gets what they want, they pop-off hard.

I think Usmash helps Sonic a lot, since it doubles as an anti-air and really powerful KO tool (especially given her light weight). Same goes for his Uair. Doesn't help us horizontally, but we get pretty early kills of the top.

Puff can beat out spins and interrupt combos pretty easily with nairs and things like that. Her air mobility is really frustrating for Sonic, which adds in to why I said neither character wants to approach. Fair and Bair will pretty much beat out anything we have.

Both sides have to be incredibly patient, but I think Sonic takes it simply because he'll be getting the earlier kills.

 

[Jiggly]

Sonic vs Puff is weird.

I think Sonic wins, but it's a miserable match-up for both players. From the sets I've had, I've never really enjoyed it. Even in Brawl.

Neither character wants to approach... Sonic wants to stay on the ground and Puff wants to stay in the air. The second either one of them gets what they want, they pop-off hard.

I think Usmash helps Sonic a lot, since it doubles as an anti-air and really powerful KO tool (especially given her light weight). Same goes for his Uair. Doesn't help us horizontally, but we get pretty early kills of the top.

Puff can beat out spins and interrupt combos pretty easily with nairs and things like that. Her air mobility is really frustrating for Sonic, which adds in to why I said neither character wants to approach. Fair and Bair will pretty much beat out anything we have.

Both sides have to be incredibly patient, but I think Sonic takes it simply because he'll be getting the earlier kills.

I feel like Sonic's speed forces puff to approach, which is definitely bad for her in this MU, since it gives sonic dominance. Up smash isn't something I would really say is good in this MU, cuz a whiffed up smash = free rest in my experience. Up air is a great tool for sonic as well. The problem is sonic doesn't have all too many more options in the air vs puff, and he can't stay in the air much against her, for fear of getting beat down. I think spin dash is great for punishing Puff landing, and is the only time it should be used. Spin dash isn't a great tool in this MU overall, which is hard for many sonics, but a good sonic will knwo how to live without it. I agree sonic has the advantage, but I would say it is by a 55:45.

Do you have a MU estimate?

 

[Camalange]

I feel like Sonic's speed forces puff to approach, which is definitely bad for her in this MU, since it gives sonic dominance.

What good is my speed though if you're just jumping? Not like I can run and grab you. Our air speed is bad, which is why I think both characters have a weird time approaching.

Up smash isn't something I would really say is good in this MU, cuz a whiffed up smash = free rest in my experience. Up air is a great tool for sonic as well.

Well, that's kind of the case in every match-up with Sonic's Usmash... It's not safe really but a well placed one will wreck her. But again, sorta why I don't enjoy the match-up cuz neither player wants to commit to anything.

The problem is sonic doesn't have all too many more options in the air vs puff, and he can't stay in the air much against her, for fear of getting beat down. I think spin dash is great for punishing Puff landing, and is the only time it should be used. Spin dash isn't a great tool in this MU overall, which is hard for many sonics, but a good sonic will knwo how to live without it.

Yeah, I can agree with this for the most part.

I agree sonic has the advantage, but I would say it is by a 55:45.

Do you have a MU estimate?

That sounds about right for me. I could maybe see 6:4 but I would need more experience in it to say it's that much of an advantage.

 

[drakeirving]

Does anyone have the time to test if Jiggs' dair (while in the air, when falling or rising) beats out Sonic's run/spindash-jump-aerials? I feel like that option in particular is an important one for Sonic to use in this matchup, since it's a fast anti-air approach that can interrupt, get stage control, and lead to kills. I'm almost thinking whether it works or not could almost make the difference between 45:55 and 40:60 by itself.

 

[SmashGamer112]

In terms of the Jigglypuff matchup, Sonic players just need to be patient. Jiggly will be floating around throwing out fairs and bairs adding pressure while you need to wait for a chance to spindash or upsmash. Sadly, the matchup is really boring and I've had many times where it came down to the last minute.

Does anyone have the time to test if Jiggs' dair (while in the air, when falling or rising) beats out Sonic's run/spindash-jump-aerials? I feel like that option in particular is an important one for Sonic to use in this matchup, since it's a fast anti-air approach that can interrupt, get stage control, and lead to kills. I'm almost thinking whether it works or not could almost make the difference between 45:55 and 40:60 by itself

I think if sonic spindash combos into dair it trades.

Also about this:

A lot of what you say is true except one big thing. Sonic is pretty easy to gimp. His recovery sends him straight up, and has no hitbox or invincibility. It's easy nair bait, and you just keep punishing him until it's too late.]

Burst Homing Attack sends sonic down like a rock and if you're recovering high you just do that then up b under the ledge. Also when sonic springs, he has invincibility when he jumps off the spring I think and he can also act out of it with whatever he wants, I normally homing attack and 9/10 it would hit puff on the head.

Btw, for beating Jiggly in the air, I normally full hop, fast fall bair if jiggly tries to approach me, though it's not the best as if you whiff it, you lag and jiggly can probably punish you (and if really close get a rest). Fair also does well but it has less priority than bair.

 

[Filler Dmon]

Burst Homing Attack sends sonic down like a rock and if you're recovering high you just do that then up b under the ledge. Also when sonic springs, he has invincibility when he jumps off the spring I think and he can also act out of it with whatever he wants, I normally homing attack and 9/10 it would hit puff on the head.

I believe the situation was more or less, as is usually the case with Jigglypuffs, if we had managed to get you down right/left of the stage, not in the air above, since the former is the situation in which a gimp K.O. is most likely to occur.

Then again, I may be talking with my foot in my mouth, so don't mind anything stupid I say.

My memory sucks: did we discuss the Homing Attack at all yet ourselves? I'd like to know if Uair does anything about it. I don't think Nair does, but I could be wrong, though I'd think if anything Uair, or even Pound from the right angle, would have better luck hitting him out of the Homing Attack.

... How do Custom Moves affect match ups, me thinks. Have they been factored in each of the previous ones? Something worth noting, despite the, what, 81 potential combinations of movesets per character factoring each different special move? I'd been operating on a "Customs:Off" mindset, though I've notice them being used a lot more in tournaments and rules recently.

Edit: Also

In terms of the Jigglypuff matchup, Sonic players just need to be patient.

That inherently sounds funny as hell.

 

[Jiggly]

Btw, for beating Jiggly in the air, I normally full hop, fast fall bair if jiggly tries to approach me, though it's not the best as if you whiff it, you lag and jiggly can probably punish you (and if really close get a rest). Fair also does well but it has less priority than bair.

That's a terrible option, I'm sorry. Relying on getting a full hop, and then hitting a FFBair is highly unrealistic. Maybe on a move whiff or punish, but it is in no way a viable anti-approach option.

Also when sonic springs, he has invincibility when he jumps off the spring I think and he can also act out of it with whatever he wants, I normally homing attack and 9/10 it would hit puff on the head.

Isn't only invincible as he gets off the spring in a couple frames? I have never had a sonic not get hit by a nair when you punish a spring jump, as being close to him when he recovers isn't a good idea because you have less react time to chase where he is springing too.


Although, being patient is important for sonic.

 

[Filler Dmon]

Although, being patient is important for sonic.

It still sounds funny as hell.

 

[Codaption]

Sonic plays a bait-and-punish game anyway, so yes, he does normally need to be patient. As long as he doesn't get Marble Zone PTSD, he should still do decently enough in a matchup as slow as this.

 

[SmashGamer112]

Isn't only invincible as he gets off the spring in a couple frames? I have never had a sonic not get hit by a nair when you punish a spring jump, as being close to him when he recovers isn't a good idea because you have less react time to chase where he is springing too.

Yeah, but sonic doesn't have invisibility when he activates it he gets it when just bouncing off, kind of like how Side B has invincibility during the little hop animation.

That's a terrible option, I'm sorry. Relying on getting a full hop, and then hitting a FFBair is highly unrealistic. Maybe on a move whiff or punish, but it is in no way a viable anti-approach option.

That's just for a mixup, sonic normally just waits, hits and then runs. It depends on your playstyle on how you approach here. you can do a short hop fair but it's likely to whiff, and no lol it's not an anti for jiggly in the air that would be upsmash or uptilt or even short hop fairs.

Sonic plays a bait-and-punish game anyway, so yes, he does normally need to be patient. As long as he doesn't get Marble Zone PTSD, he should still do decently enough in a matchup as slow as this.

Marble Zone PTSD LOL.

This is pretty much it though in all seriousness. Just wait it out and punish, though mix it up or else you won't do well.

 

[ROOOOY!]

VSCJ is a better anti air option than most of what's been written on here.

 

[SmashGamer112]

VSCJ is a better anti air option than most of what's been written on here.

It's kind of slow though.

 

[ROOOOY!]

In what way, start up? Maybe, but its a lot safer than throwing out a bair or utilt though.

 

[SmashGamer112]

In what way, start up? Maybe, but its a lot safer than throwing out a bair or utilt though.

True, but you can always VSJ instead.

 

[Codaption]

I'm unfamiliar with the terminology being tossed around right now. What exactly does VSCJ mean to a Sonic main?

 

[SmashGamer112]

I'm unfamiliar with the terminology being tossed around right now. What exactly does VSCJ mean to a Sonic main?

VSCJ (Veritical Spin Charge Jump) is basically the "charging" jump sonic does when charging side down B. The thing you see when jumping while charging Down B.

VSJ (Vertical Spin Jump) is if you press the A button when charging Down B or Side B, sonic is in his spin attack but jumps, good option to fake out the move along with Shield canceling.

 

[jordanm43444]

Honestly the Jiggly vs Sonic MU is a weird one.

One of our strongest players uses Jiggly but she refuses to use it in the Sonic MU any more after this set.

To my understanding everyone seems to have covered it pretty well so far in this thread, it could be one of the most painful MUs to play for both players, especially since Sonic can cover the ground REALLY easily but Jiggs can EASILY cover the air. Making it impossible for both players to comfortably approach.

 

[Codaption]

VSCJ (Veritical Spin Charge Jump) is basically the "charging" jump sonic does when charging side down B. The thing you see when jumping while charging Down B.

VSJ (Vertical Spin Jump) is if you press the A button when charging Down B or Side B, sonic is in his spin attack but jumps, good option to fake out the move along with Shield canceling.

I was not aware of VSJ at all. Thank you for clarifying.

 

[Jiggly]

So lets all give our ratings. I'm going 45:55 sonic favor


Also after that, lets discuss the best way to play against a sonic to cover all his options.

 

[CHOVI]

I also vote 45:55 sonic. Man the matchup IS pretty painful to play :S

 

[SmashGamer112]

Yeah, even though it's 55:45 to sonic, I still think it's very annoying for sonic even if he has the advantage.

I was not aware of VSJ at all. Thank you for clarifying.

No problem, if anytime you need to look back here's the thread with all the terms:
http://smashboards.com/threads/moveset-thread-wip-new-at-updated-04-30-15.370892/

 

[Codaption]

Yeah, even though it's 55:45 to sonic, I still think it's very annoying for sonic even if he has the advantage.



No problem, if anytime you need to look back here's the thread with all the terms:
http://smashboards.com/threads/moveset-thread-wip-new-at-updated-04-30-15.370892/

I'll keep that in mind in case I decide to pick up Sonic. I actually have him as a pocket (and played him in Brawl), so it's not too far-fetched to think I might need that link at some point in the future.

Oh, and it could also help in the matchup discussion.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Can we talk about certain MU like Kirby, peach, kirby?

 

[SmashGamer112]

I'll keep that in mind in case I decide to pick up Sonic. I actually have him as a pocket (and played him in Brawl), so it's not too far-fetched to think I might need that link at some point in the future.

Oh, and it could also help in the matchup discussion.

Nice! If you do pick him up, come visit the Sonic-boards.

 

[Codaption]

Will do! But for now, let's get back to the discussion at hand. Is there anything else on Sonic vs. Jiggs we haven't covered?

 

[CHOVI]

Just played a decent sonic today... I think the matchup may be even more against us. If Sonic takes the stock first, he can pretty much camp us/ run and we don't have a lot of options to punish :/ I'd say it's 65: 35 for Sonic

 

[SmashGamer112]

Just played a decent sonic today... I think the matchup may be even more against us. If Sonic takes the stock first, he can pretty much camp us/ run and we don't have a lot of options to punish :/ I'd say it's 65: 35 for Sonic

Do you think Jiggs would do better with 3 stocks or 2?

 

[drakeirving]

I'm fairly confident in saying that Jiggs does better with 3 stocks than 2 in general, due to Rest alone. With two stocks, you simply cannot be aggressive with Rest besides in specific circumstances: early Rests to build damage are good, killing Rests when you're in an obvious lead and not at kill% are good. But other than this you have no buffer to play with, since a whiff and punish can easily force you into an uphill second stock where the opponent has Rage, and a whiff on second stock can cost you the game. With three stocks you have room to experiment, more opportunities to go for Rests while at low percents, trading Rests for punishes is more favorable to Jiggs, and you can always switch to play more patiently if you get punished badly. We also don't *really* have guaranteed Rest setups, so a lot of hits are OoS punishes and yomi, which are inherently risky.

While it isn't exactly the same, you can look at how quickly Melee stocks are gone and think about how much riskier pulling off Rests would be if there were only two stocks, no jab-reset Rest and no upthrow Rest. There would be essentially zero room for error, and that's sort of an exaggeration of the predicament Jiggs has with two-stock games here.

 

[CHOVI]

I'm fairly confident in saying that Jiggs does better with 3 stocks than 2 in general, due to Rest alone. With two stocks, you simply cannot be aggressive with Rest besides in specific circumstances: early Rests to build damage are good, killing Rests when you're in an obvious lead and not at kill% are good. But other than this you have no buffer to play with, since a whiff and punish can easily force you into an uphill second stock where the opponent has Rage, and a whiff on second stock can cost you the game. With three stocks you have room to experiment, more opportunities to go for Rests while at low percents, trading Rests for punishes is more favorable to Jiggs, and you can always switch to play more patiently if you get punished badly. We also don't *really* have guaranteed Rest setups, so a lot of hits are OoS punishes and yomi, which are inherently risky.

While it isn't exactly the same, you can look at how quickly Melee stocks are gone and think about how much riskier pulling off Rests would be if there were only two stocks, no jab-reset Rest and no upthrow Rest. There would be essentially zero room for error, and that's sort of an exaggeration of the predicament Jiggs has with two-stock games here.

While I do agree with this, I think this matchup is already painful enough with two-stock, since we can easily get into an uphill battle and Sonic can sometimes time us out if needed unless our punish game is exactly on spot. I guess it is a matter of preference, but I think since we're very unlikely to make any comebacks, 2-stock is ideal for this matchup.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

So Sonic discussion is basically done? I would like to request a character or two if you don't mind?