Just popping in to say that it blows my mind that a character who wins the game as soon as he gets the percent lead (Sonic) is listed as 45-55. You guys are delusional.
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Data Pokemon Battle Strategies: Sm4sh Jigglypuff Matchup Thread (Discussing Ryu)
- Thread starter Jiggly
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Jiggly
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I mean if we are gonna do anything on the ground against your tilts, it's dash attack which beats all your tilts, smashes, and when you are hit by thunder, and it's a kill move. I was testing this last night, Fair, and nair beat uair. Utily I haven't tested, brb.
Jiggly
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The sonic mains came over and talked about how they cant approach puff, so it just becomes a camping match if they get the percent lead. Nair beats spin dash, which is one of their best approaches, and it's just not a fun MU if both players play it correctly. If sonic can circle camp puff correctly, it can work, but it's tough on a lot of stages. It's hard for both players just because it's annoying, and mains of both characters found it as a 45-55 sonic's favor. If you have anything to say other than a sarcastic and snarky comment, I'd be happy to go over it again.
My comment was not sarcastic--Anyone who thinks Jigglypuff vs. Sonic is anywhere close to even doesn't understand how Smash Brothers works at high levels of play.
Sonic's burst range is worlds better than Jigglypuff's. Sonic can catch you when you whiff on reaction while Jiggypuff can't do the same to Sonic in many cases. Pivot stuff makes it excessively difficult to go for a KO option without significant risk, while Sonic can do it with relative impunity in many cases. Also, even if it Sonic finds it difficult to fight against Jigglypuff's camping (which is debatable, too), at least he can threaten Jigglypuff; Sonic should be close to untouchable in the matchup if he feels like avoiding combat.
Sonic's burst range is worlds better than Jigglypuff's. Sonic can catch you when you whiff on reaction while Jiggypuff can't do the same to Sonic in many cases. Pivot stuff makes it excessively difficult to go for a KO option without significant risk, while Sonic can do it with relative impunity in many cases. Also, even if it Sonic finds it difficult to fight against Jigglypuff's camping (which is debatable, too), at least he can threaten Jigglypuff; Sonic should be close to untouchable in the matchup if he feels like avoiding combat.
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Codaption
Smash Ace
I won't really say much about the sonic discussion going on considering I didn't really have much to say when we were discussing it, so...I'll just continue with Pikachu.
Same goes for ground game, as odd as it sounds, because we're used to being beaten on the ground. We're not going to spend enough time there that you can take advantage of that. As Jiggly said, if we do come down its going to be so that we can use our jank-fueled dash attack, which...beats out most things in general, really.
Chances are that yes, you aren't going to have as much issue with killing us. That's not the issue here- the issue is that our light weight means you can't really rack damage on us, meaning that...well...actually you will have issues killing us, because our percentage just shouldn't be high enough for you kill moves to take us out. Even with how light we are, Pikachu should really be killing us before 100, maybe 90%, and if his combos stop working halfway there he's going to have to work hard to get the rest of that damage on us. This was a major factor in our Zamus discussion as well, and should not be taken lightly.
That being said, there's one thing we haven't really touched upon- Pikachu's fantastic recovery options.
Jigglypuff's playstyle revolves around three things. One is because of her fantastic aerial dominance, another is her offstage presence (really just an offshoot of her air prowess), and the harbinger of doom that is Rest and its setups. Now consider this: We can't really edgeguard Pikachu. Nobody can. It's like trying to challenge Marth's range with a potato. That knocks out one part of our playstyle. As Isaiah mentioned before, Pikachu's small size limits our ability to combo into and land rest...thus hindering another part of our strategy, albeit not to a crippling degree.
These are what we should be discussing, not whether Pikachu's Utilt beats out this aerial or that aerial. Unless I'm horribly uninformed and QA now makes Pikachu's hurtbox cover the entire screen, this is a big issue that we need to figure out.
Spotdodge is fine and dandy, but if you abuse it too much we can easily beat it out with...say, Fair, Nair, even Fsmash if we're feeling confident in the read. It's a neat thing, but not good enough to really matter all that much in the MU overall.
Same goes for ground game, as odd as it sounds, because we're used to being beaten on the ground. We're not going to spend enough time there that you can take advantage of that. As Jiggly said, if we do come down its going to be so that we can use our jank-fueled dash attack, which...beats out most things in general, really.
Chances are that yes, you aren't going to have as much issue with killing us. That's not the issue here- the issue is that our light weight means you can't really rack damage on us, meaning that...well...actually you will have issues killing us, because our percentage just shouldn't be high enough for you kill moves to take us out. Even with how light we are, Pikachu should really be killing us before 100, maybe 90%, and if his combos stop working halfway there he's going to have to work hard to get the rest of that damage on us. This was a major factor in our Zamus discussion as well, and should not be taken lightly.
That being said, there's one thing we haven't really touched upon- Pikachu's fantastic recovery options.
Jigglypuff's playstyle revolves around three things. One is because of her fantastic aerial dominance, another is her offstage presence (really just an offshoot of her air prowess), and the harbinger of doom that is Rest and its setups. Now consider this: We can't really edgeguard Pikachu. Nobody can. It's like trying to challenge Marth's range with a potato. That knocks out one part of our playstyle. As Isaiah mentioned before, Pikachu's small size limits our ability to combo into and land rest...thus hindering another part of our strategy, albeit not to a crippling degree.
These are what we should be discussing, not whether Pikachu's Utilt beats out this aerial or that aerial. Unless I'm horribly uninformed and QA now makes Pikachu's hurtbox cover the entire screen, this is a big issue that we need to figure out.
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isaiah :)
Smash Apprentice
actually dtilt can clash if spaced if spaced correctly and i've used fsmash to get the kills against plenty of dash attack jiggly puffs, but i do respect the power of the dash attack, but if it isn't timed right it will be too slow to catch any of pikachu's moves, but the mu is is pika's favor on most maps
p.s. ayy picked up puff as a pocket, but loved the play style so she's a second now lol
Puff can beat out a lot of sonics moves, favor in puff but only slightly
p.s. ayy picked up puff as a pocket, but loved the play style so she's a second now lol
Puff can beat out a lot of sonics moves, favor in puff but only slightly
isaiah :)
Smash Apprentice
there is an issue with what you say, lets be clear, if pikachu can't touch jiggly puff then jiggly puff cant touch pikachu and yes pikachu needs small combos to rack up damage but jiggly puff is easy to rack up damage on in the air because of pikachu's quick Uair and lingering hitbox's can follow your air dodge, pikachu beats jiggly puff on the ground that is for sure now air game is based purely on timing for jiggly puff, but still i believe pikachu's up air alone with his up tilt make it hard for you too get much damage without a trade, and which move beats out which is significant in all MU it allows players to know which moves in their utility to throw out safely or trade, how you speak, you make it based on player preference which MU's are suppose to actually discuss character traits and how frame data works in the favor of either of the two characters being analyzed not weather a player prefers spot dodge, you might be speaking a little too much based off of experience and no actual data, i say pikachu is great in the air fight because his Uair hitbox comes out within the first 5 frames and hello it has an auto cancel, so pikachu doesn't need to combo jiggly puff just as sheik doesn't we just need to make sure you keep getting juggled which is kinda easy to do and two out of three of pikachu's smash attacks kills jiggles at decent percent so again pikachu doesn't struggle much in this match up, honestly i don't think pikachu even needs QA for the neutral game in this match up. anyway i like jiggly puff and i love the move set but this match up doesn't seem to be in jiggles favor at all no matter what angle i look at it. it isn't completely in pikachu's favor but if anyone had an advantage in this MU it's pikachu.
well to address the QA situation, its an amazing recovery with two inputs for two half stage zips and only needing to be 15 degrees apart. there are literally 15 different inputs to put in for every second zip you make, its actually amazing resulting in well over hundred situational angels ayy crazy pikachu. it can easily get pikachu out of a lot but it isn't needed much in this match up, if it were to be used, it would be used to juggle across stage since JP doesn't touch the ground often
p.s. they easily go back and forth off stage, and pikachu has more stage advantages then jigglypuff
well to address the QA situation, its an amazing recovery with two inputs for two half stage zips and only needing to be 15 degrees apart. there are literally 15 different inputs to put in for every second zip you make, its actually amazing resulting in well over hundred situational angels ayy crazy pikachu. it can easily get pikachu out of a lot but it isn't needed much in this match up, if it were to be used, it would be used to juggle across stage since JP doesn't touch the ground often
p.s. they easily go back and forth off stage, and pikachu has more stage advantages then jigglypuff
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Codaption
Smash Ace
I'm not denying that Pikachu has a good air game. In fact, he has a great one. Everything he has except for bair autocancels out of a shorthop, and his aerials can rack up damage pretty neatly. Frankly, though, We beat him outright in the air, as his aerials simply don't have the range to contend with ours. It doesn't mean that he can't use aerials at all, but we have the advantage off of the ground- it's not a matter of player preference, it's a fact. (And while Pikachu does have some nice lingering hitboxes, we have one of the longest airdodges in the entire game, probably THE longest. Nothing short of bair is going to catch it.)
Considering everything, though.... Yeah, I can't really see this going super well for puff. After some labbing today, it seems like most of your kill moves do us in earlier than us, and while (again) you can't really combo us juggling us with Uair should be no sweat.
That labbing DID bring up something important, though, and that's would be that we don't actually lose much utility from Rest due to Pikachu's size. Retreating Dair is completely out of the picture (only one or two hits will connect), but everything else is intact, and in fact Pikachu's weight makes him more subsceptible to our remaining setups (including Dair jab lock). I also noticed that all of Pikachu's kill moves seem to be low to the ground- even Usmash has to be sweetspotted in order to get the most out of it, and if we're directly above it it has no kill power whatsoever. It almost feels like we BENEFIT from trying to be above Pikachu, but of course Utilt can keep us out so pfffft nah. I'd try to position myself more diagonally in relation to Rat- definitely not low to the ground, but not directly above, either. We should be able to avoid Pikachu's killers for the most part if we try for that sort of thing.
One last thing: watch out for dash attack. It kills us even earlier than ours kills Chu, though it lacks the weird priority that ours does.
Considering everything, though.... Yeah, I can't really see this going super well for puff. After some labbing today, it seems like most of your kill moves do us in earlier than us, and while (again) you can't really combo us juggling us with Uair should be no sweat.
That labbing DID bring up something important, though, and that's would be that we don't actually lose much utility from Rest due to Pikachu's size. Retreating Dair is completely out of the picture (only one or two hits will connect), but everything else is intact, and in fact Pikachu's weight makes him more subsceptible to our remaining setups (including Dair jab lock). I also noticed that all of Pikachu's kill moves seem to be low to the ground- even Usmash has to be sweetspotted in order to get the most out of it, and if we're directly above it it has no kill power whatsoever. It almost feels like we BENEFIT from trying to be above Pikachu, but of course Utilt can keep us out so pfffft nah. I'd try to position myself more diagonally in relation to Rat- definitely not low to the ground, but not directly above, either. We should be able to avoid Pikachu's killers for the most part if we try for that sort of thing.
One last thing: watch out for dash attack. It kills us even earlier than ours kills Chu, though it lacks the weird priority that ours does.
isaiah :)
Smash Apprentice
that's a decent analysis but i know a great kill option for taking out jiggly puff is Fair to Usmash so watch out for that combo in the 80+ percents at that point you can not let pikachu connect with FF Fairs.
Codaption
Smash Ace
Fair to Usmash....that's something to keep in mind, I never would have thought of that.
Anyone else want to say anything, or are we ready to slap a ratio on here and discuss strategies for fighting Chu? I'm seeing a 40:60 Pikachu here, myself...Pikachu's recovery alone is a big issue for us, and he has the option to juggle us with Uair as well. Just be grateful that it doesn't kill, and that we have the air mobility to feasibly avoid it.
Anyone else want to say anything, or are we ready to slap a ratio on here and discuss strategies for fighting Chu? I'm seeing a 40:60 Pikachu here, myself...Pikachu's recovery alone is a big issue for us, and he has the option to juggle us with Uair as well. Just be grateful that it doesn't kill, and that we have the air mobility to feasibly avoid it.
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Macchiato
Smash Hero
I feel like this is a bad Match-Up for us because even with our amazing aerial mobility, its hard for us to keep up. Due to thunder jolt, we have to approach. Offstage gimping imo is both doable for both characters. We can't really rest effectively due to his low lag. The range is p even too. We can kill him as early as he kills us. I feel like its a small disadvantage.
Jiggly
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I put down Rosa's info and started on ZSS, sorry for being behind.
Also, I'm still convinced Jiggs has the advantage in the MU due to us beating Pika's neutral and approach options. We also escape his kill combos, so he has issues killing us unless we run into an up smash. Lets wrap up the pika MU so we can continue onto Ness.
Also, I'm still convinced Jiggs has the advantage in the MU due to us beating Pika's neutral and approach options. We also escape his kill combos, so he has issues killing us unless we run into an up smash. Lets wrap up the pika MU so we can continue onto Ness.
Macchiato
Smash Hero
I don't see how we win in neutral at all. We have to approach and Pikachu is both faster and has better frame data and less lag. He can camp us. For kills, Usmash can catch us in the air and Uthrow to Thunder works on us at 65% where it would kill us near the ledge. We definitely don't win.
Jiggly
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Most characters are faster than us, I dont understand how that's even a point. lol. He cant really camp us well due to us being able to easily take care of thunder jolts, and we can beat QA with nair. He can usmash, but it's not safe because if he whiffs it we get a rest. It's too much of a gamble. Uthrow to thunder can get us, but everyone should know to start DIing away the second you get grabbed.
Macchiato
Smash Hero
Yes, but after they get the lead they can just keep running away and Jigglypuff doesn't enjoy chasing. We still have to react to Thunder Jolt and it's very likely that you'll get hit by at least one. If they Usmash our shield, there's enough pushback that it's not possible to get a rest. Maybe like a DA, but definitely not a Rest. QA part is indeed right. The Grab isn't super easy to react to. Uthrow is fast, so you might not expect it.
drakeirving
Smash Journeyman
I would argue that although we can take care of Thunder Jolts, when they're coupled with Pikachu's ground speed, it can easily lead to traps where we attempt to break through a Jolt but are now committed to nair, while Pikachu is free to try any followup option. At the very least they hold the advantage while the most we can do is try to use the nair to bait something?
Also raw upsmash isn't a big point against, but FF fair to guaranteed upsmash definitely is. Poor air speed might mean fair on shield is Rest-punishable (does his hurtbox even connect with us after a fair?), but its landing lag is only 15 frames so unless you get the powershield and buffer it, it's going to be risky.
Also raw upsmash isn't a big point against, but FF fair to guaranteed upsmash definitely is. Poor air speed might mean fair on shield is Rest-punishable (does his hurtbox even connect with us after a fair?), but its landing lag is only 15 frames so unless you get the powershield and buffer it, it's going to be risky.
Jiggly
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So lets lay down a MU ratio. Pika has some tools, but due to us being able to ruin or contest with the bread and butter and basic fundamentals of a pikachu, I feel like we still have an advantage, but not a big one. 55-45 imo
isaiah :)
Smash Apprentice
i play both and i have i still give it to pikachu, jiggs is good but pikachu rush her down way too easily. and has more then enough tools to control the match
and pikachu can correctly space fair to shield to not be punishable but slower characters.
and pikachu can correctly space fair to shield to not be punishable but slower characters.
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Macchiato
Smash Hero
45-55 in Pikachu's Favor
DavemanCozy
Smash Photographer
Dee-SmashinBoss
Smash Ace
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I love to see how jiggly rates this MU the fact he thinks Pika vs Jiggs may be in Jigg's favor is already halarious.
Jiggly
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I have yet to be swayed otherwise. How about instead of being snarky you could explain why I'm wrong. I'm all open to discussion. The MU is more difficuly than I previously thought, but because we have the tools to take care of pika's bread and butter combos and approaches, and having one of the only sexkicks that takes care of QA, I feel like we can deal qith pika really well. He is quick, which makes him hard to rest, and he has some kill combos. He is good, but I still feel like puff has the tools to take care of a Pikachu.
Macchiato
Smash Hero
I feel that Puff can handle Pikachu, but Pikachu has a slight easier time in the match. Thats why I only think it's a slight disadvantage.
Jiggly also I recommend using this scoring system instead
+3 Big Advantage
+2 Moderate Advantage
+1 Small Advantage
+0 Even
-1 Small Disadvantage
-2 Moderate Disadvantage
-3 Big Advantage
It's more organized and it's just better and more easy to understand. Ratios usually become a mess.
Jiggly
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Could you explian how pika has an easier time? It seems if you got rid of his best combos, made his thunder jolts not all too great, and ruined QA, the reason he's top tier, it seems like he would have a tough time. The only big advantage he really has is being able to easily get out of rest setups, or just being hard to rest in general.
Macchiato
Smash Hero
I made a post above on my thoughts of the match-up
Jiggly
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Alright, you guys make fair points, but I still think we have a slight advantage. You can't beat a characters main tools, and still expect it to be a negative matchup imo.
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Macchiato
Smash Hero
It's really just a discussion. It's not like I don't respect what you say. I listened to your points too.
Codaption
Smash Ace
Pikachu beats OUR main tools as well, or at least our main strategies. We flat-out can't edgeguard him, and while his small size doesn't completely remove rest combos it makes them harder harder to do (retreating Dair is completely unusable in this MU, it just won't connect past the first one or two hits). He can still combo us and use kill setups on us and in general kills us earlier barring rest- Even his dash attack is stronger than ours, though it lacks our weird priority rules. He can juggle us with Uair into oblivion and all we can do about it is go for ledge or pray that we get a good read on the air dodge. Beating Quick Attack and ability to avoid projectiles is nice, but I'd say we rely almost as much (if not more) on edgeguards as Pika does on Quick Attack, and of course we rely on Rest waaaay more so the reduced effectiveness of that combined with our inability to edgeguard him is worse than losing Quick Attack. Besides, isn't QA primarily used as an approach tool? Why would Pikachu approach in this matchup, HE'S the one with the projectiles!
Frankly, I just don't see how we could EVER win this matchup. I wouldn't say it's like, 30:70, as we still have stuff we can do and some upsides to the matchup.....but there's not much there.
Frankly, I just don't see how we could EVER win this matchup. I wouldn't say it's like, 30:70, as we still have stuff we can do and some upsides to the matchup.....but there's not much there.
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Jiggly
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We can edgeguard him actually, Nair beats QA. I often just wall pika out with nair. He is usually forced to hope we mess up, or to recover super high. Both of those end up in our favor. His combos dont really work with us, past 1 utilt to uair or uthrow to uair. If you DI he cant get another uair or fair/bair. He can't juggle us very well either, due to him having terrible air speed, the 18th worst air speed. We can easily float around and stay away from his juggles. And yes, rest is difficult in this MU, and thats one thing that Jiggs has issues with in this MU. But since We can ruin his approaches, deal with his Thunder Jolt, and we can escape his bread and butter, I say we have a decent advantage. I may be missing something, and it could be in pika's favor, but it's no where close to 30:70.
btw, @
TheReflexWonder
, do you have any experience in the MU?
Codaption
Smash Ace
Does SOFT Nair beat QA? If so, then...okay, that's actually something to consider offstage. But again, it doesn't do anything to his approach game, because Pika DOES NOT need to approach in this mu. Thunder Jolt may not be as effective against us, but it's still a projectile that can be used to keep us away and force us to close the gap- we don't have a reflector or a projectile of our own. Pikachu can always keep up the juggle by fastfalling and using the ground to stay under Puff- still not fabulous against most characters, but we can't really do much to stop him and it makes it easier to keep us in the air. Combos are expected to be worsened against us, but Fair -> Usmash is scary and CANNOT be counted out.
You elaborating a bit more helps to clear things up, though, and now I see why you consider it in our favor. That doesn't change that it's a very risky battle for us.
You elaborating a bit more helps to clear things up, though, and now I see why you consider it in our favor. That doesn't change that it's a very risky battle for us.
Dee-SmashinBoss
Smash Ace
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Lets here @ESAM and how he thinks of the MU, being the best Pika of course, he would know the most
Dee-SmashinBoss
Smash Ace
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Thor
Smash Champion
Don't know all that much about the MU, but I've never lost to a Puff, including playing a few most people considered good [for a local level, which still means very little]. Here's a bunch of random stuff that relates:
I've heard that Pikachu's bair beats all of Jigglypuff's aerials. I sincerely doubt it beats Pound, but I've seen Jigglypuffs approach with dair and fair and get hit [don't know if it's bad spacing or actually real], so I know that fullhop bair is at least very difficult for Puff to outright beat without being precise [you can punish the endlag since even though it autocancels, the hitbox doesn't stay out all the way down to landing, so there's some window to punish it (which may be shortend by fastfalling with good timing??)]. Again, that may have been poor spacing, but it's definitely relevant to the MU.
I don't know the hitbox on Jigglypuff's fair/nair/bair, but I know Pikachu fair is disjointed, so I space with that a lot. It seems to outrange all 3, which is really bad for Jigglypuff if that's the case.
Utilt is obviously ridiculously good for Pikachu in this MU - your aerials can probably outspace it, but if we land one, except at minimum a strong nair or two uairs, and depending on percent, utilt uair nair or utilt uair bair should combo. I've seen ESAM do uitlt uair fastfall fair to set up for more grounded tricks - don't know if it works specifically on Puff, but it's something to watch out for.
If I had someone to test with me I would, but testing Pikachu bair and fair vs all Jilggypuff aerials [nair fair bair uair dair Pound] to determine how they interact in air would be a good idea, with each test having the character try to space optimally [so Pikachu hitting with the tip of fair vs Puff hitting with the tip of fair]. If someone is going to test this stuff, they should also check out Pikachu uair vs Jiggs dair - I know I've beat out a Jigglypuff dair animation with uair, but it was on startup so it's possible the hitbox wasn't out yet, and that's a big one, because if Pikachu uair beats it out, Puff lacks a real landing option since Pikachu's ground speed is incredible and uair is a frame trap [we get a nair, bair, or another uair if you airdodge one unless you airdodge it really early, and if we predict that, except dair, usmash, or heavy skull bash depending on your position]. Pikachu meanwhile is exceedingly difficult to landing trap if they're being cautious, because Quick Attack is really good and letting Pikachu land almost wherever one wants.
Heavy Skull Bash is stupid strong but if you ever see us charging it expecting a roll, just holding shield [or floating above it until the charge must be released] will net you a free Rest or fsmash - the move has very little shield damage/power outside the early portion, and the endlag is absurd [also charging it doesn't alter the distance travelled]. If the endlag animation makes it hard to Rest Pikachu [I know he sort of ducks down a little], that's important to know as well, so that you just use fsmash or usmash [not sure which is better for Jigglypuff... position and stage dependent?]
Both Heavy Skull Bash and Skull Bash have large endlag in the air, so unless there is a DBZ trade or you are grossly out of position, Pikachu will have to rely only on double jump and Quick Attack for recovery. However, Pikachu can go lower than Jigglypuff as far as I know, so Pikachu can often just fall really far, then double jump thunder QA, omitting thunder if they wish. However, we obviously only drop really really low if you come down there with us, so more often than not we'll be doing a double jump aerial or even saving the double jump and just QAing to ledge or stage in case you intercept it. Gimps shouldn't occur against Pikachu basically ever [I mean if you intercept Pikachu's QA at 130% with fair, then they possibly will, but 50% gimps should never happen], but Pikachu technically can gimp Jiggs, due to fair's good range and decent knockback, and dair's reasonable knockback. I've only gimped a Puff once or twice, and it was due to being very precise and reading a few airdodges, but don't be careless when recovering against Pikachu.
If the tests come in stating Jigglypuff's stuff beats out Pikachu's, then the MU is better than I thought, but as far as I know, Jigglypuff doesn't have a very reliable way to deal with fair or bair, and Pikachu can't be edgeguarded effectively while both characters being lightweights means Pikachu's more potent KO tools [usmash is better out of a run and a good way to catch landings, our fsmash is longer range, and HSB is already know to be strong] give Pikachu a clear edge in the MU. Maybe Jigglypuff has godlike ground moves and I was unaware, but I'm pretty sure Pikachu dtilt outranges most everything; Pikachu's better ground mobility and ability to shoot thunder jolts is why I think this matchup primarily occurs in the air and ignored most of Puff's ground tools.
I've heard that Pikachu's bair beats all of Jigglypuff's aerials. I sincerely doubt it beats Pound, but I've seen Jigglypuffs approach with dair and fair and get hit [don't know if it's bad spacing or actually real], so I know that fullhop bair is at least very difficult for Puff to outright beat without being precise [you can punish the endlag since even though it autocancels, the hitbox doesn't stay out all the way down to landing, so there's some window to punish it (which may be shortend by fastfalling with good timing??)]. Again, that may have been poor spacing, but it's definitely relevant to the MU.
I don't know the hitbox on Jigglypuff's fair/nair/bair, but I know Pikachu fair is disjointed, so I space with that a lot. It seems to outrange all 3, which is really bad for Jigglypuff if that's the case.
Utilt is obviously ridiculously good for Pikachu in this MU - your aerials can probably outspace it, but if we land one, except at minimum a strong nair or two uairs, and depending on percent, utilt uair nair or utilt uair bair should combo. I've seen ESAM do uitlt uair fastfall fair to set up for more grounded tricks - don't know if it works specifically on Puff, but it's something to watch out for.
If I had someone to test with me I would, but testing Pikachu bair and fair vs all Jilggypuff aerials [nair fair bair uair dair Pound] to determine how they interact in air would be a good idea, with each test having the character try to space optimally [so Pikachu hitting with the tip of fair vs Puff hitting with the tip of fair]. If someone is going to test this stuff, they should also check out Pikachu uair vs Jiggs dair - I know I've beat out a Jigglypuff dair animation with uair, but it was on startup so it's possible the hitbox wasn't out yet, and that's a big one, because if Pikachu uair beats it out, Puff lacks a real landing option since Pikachu's ground speed is incredible and uair is a frame trap [we get a nair, bair, or another uair if you airdodge one unless you airdodge it really early, and if we predict that, except dair, usmash, or heavy skull bash depending on your position]. Pikachu meanwhile is exceedingly difficult to landing trap if they're being cautious, because Quick Attack is really good and letting Pikachu land almost wherever one wants.
Heavy Skull Bash is stupid strong but if you ever see us charging it expecting a roll, just holding shield [or floating above it until the charge must be released] will net you a free Rest or fsmash - the move has very little shield damage/power outside the early portion, and the endlag is absurd [also charging it doesn't alter the distance travelled]. If the endlag animation makes it hard to Rest Pikachu [I know he sort of ducks down a little], that's important to know as well, so that you just use fsmash or usmash [not sure which is better for Jigglypuff... position and stage dependent?]
Both Heavy Skull Bash and Skull Bash have large endlag in the air, so unless there is a DBZ trade or you are grossly out of position, Pikachu will have to rely only on double jump and Quick Attack for recovery. However, Pikachu can go lower than Jigglypuff as far as I know, so Pikachu can often just fall really far, then double jump thunder QA, omitting thunder if they wish. However, we obviously only drop really really low if you come down there with us, so more often than not we'll be doing a double jump aerial or even saving the double jump and just QAing to ledge or stage in case you intercept it. Gimps shouldn't occur against Pikachu basically ever [I mean if you intercept Pikachu's QA at 130% with fair, then they possibly will, but 50% gimps should never happen], but Pikachu technically can gimp Jiggs, due to fair's good range and decent knockback, and dair's reasonable knockback. I've only gimped a Puff once or twice, and it was due to being very precise and reading a few airdodges, but don't be careless when recovering against Pikachu.
If the tests come in stating Jigglypuff's stuff beats out Pikachu's, then the MU is better than I thought, but as far as I know, Jigglypuff doesn't have a very reliable way to deal with fair or bair, and Pikachu can't be edgeguarded effectively while both characters being lightweights means Pikachu's more potent KO tools [usmash is better out of a run and a good way to catch landings, our fsmash is longer range, and HSB is already know to be strong] give Pikachu a clear edge in the MU. Maybe Jigglypuff has godlike ground moves and I was unaware, but I'm pretty sure Pikachu dtilt outranges most everything; Pikachu's better ground mobility and ability to shoot thunder jolts is why I think this matchup primarily occurs in the air and ignored most of Puff's ground tools.
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Jiggly
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If it were customs, I would definitely see us having more issues, but we are mainly focusing on vanilla currently, due to it being the majority of tournaments atm. Thanks for you input though, really great to have good insight on the char. The only problem is some of those combos dont actually work on puff if you DI, but still great to know about so we know how to DI. Thanks a bunch
drakeirving
Smash Journeyman
As to answer about ground game, Jiggs has squat for ranged options; her main saving grace is frame 5 dash attack, which can clank with strong moves and then keep going into a weak hit, essentially "beating" various ground options as long as they aren't multihit or have some other weird property making it stop after clank. It will likely beat Pika's tilts, but his smashes are multihit and deciding which would win out in most cases is probably a coin flip biased to Pikachu, if I were to guess.
Jiggly
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Dash Attack for puff beats pika's fsmash, goes right through it and hits pika. It goes through pika usmash. Havent even tested dsmash. Also, it does go through all of his tilts, which is great. The only issue is shield, which then we could get usmash punished. I find it great to condition pika to expect DA if Im running at them, and get ound shield breaks, or nair-pika whiffed grab-pound shield for shield break. I cant test Dsmash atm, if someone could test it for me, that would be great.
You get outranged pretty significantly without being able to counterpoke easily. He can do things like retreating F-Air and use his tilts without much fear of retaliation. Dash Attack will only get you so far. Pikachu has reasonable KO moves against you, and both characters go back to neutral whenever they want.
Probably something like 40-60 (Pikachu favor). If he doesn't feel like taking damage, it's an uphill battle.
Probably something like 40-60 (Pikachu favor). If he doesn't feel like taking damage, it's an uphill battle.
Desu~
Smash Ace
Pikachu is disgustingly annoying to deal with.
If I can add a little of salt in this, I would like to say that Pikachu is "not playing the game".
What I mean by that is that Pikachu will do anything to push Jigglypuff back and stay out of Jigglypuff's range.
The fact that most of the cast already has equal to slightly better aerials then Jigglypuff makes it no better. Because of that Pikachu can actually shut down most of Jiggs aerial approach with stuff like nair and even stuff that catches us off guard like fair and dair, because these moves have quick startup frames and stay active during the whole time (That is without counting his fast-fall on dair's part, in that case there's also a pretty big hurtbox on hard land).
I dunno about you guys, but it is most likely because of this outcome that the cast gets better aerial maneuvers that Jiggs have a few situations where she will be forced to be on her ground game.
If I can add a little of salt in this, I would like to say that Pikachu is "not playing the game".
What I mean by that is that Pikachu will do anything to push Jigglypuff back and stay out of Jigglypuff's range.
The fact that most of the cast already has equal to slightly better aerials then Jigglypuff makes it no better. Because of that Pikachu can actually shut down most of Jiggs aerial approach with stuff like nair and even stuff that catches us off guard like fair and dair, because these moves have quick startup frames and stay active during the whole time (That is without counting his fast-fall on dair's part, in that case there's also a pretty big hurtbox on hard land).
I dunno about you guys, but it is most likely because of this outcome that the cast gets better aerial maneuvers that Jiggs have a few situations where she will be forced to be on her ground game.
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Codaption
Smash Ace
....Well....that's disconcerting. At the very least, our ground game seems to be better than previous games, but it still isn't good enough to help us in most cases.
Anyway, I think this discussion's been about wrapped up. We all agree on 60:40 Pika, or anyone else got something to say that we haven't covered?
Anyway, I think this discussion's been about wrapped up. We all agree on 60:40 Pika, or anyone else got something to say that we haven't covered?
Jiggly
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I think we are all good. I will finish up ZSS and Sonic this weekend, and then pika a few days after
But for now, lets start on ness. I will give my opinion in a few hours.