Points of clarification about Casual Vs. Competitive that everyone needs to read(WOP)

[element_of_fire]

Ok, so then the black hole glitch isn't a glitch because it was put in intentionally. The EFFECT wasn't intentional, but the the physical environment that allows the effect to be created is.

There are several ways wavedashing could have been fixed, they could have locked all control shortly after an airdodge land, they could have locked all jumping after an air-dodge land, they could have implemented a lag when a command is issued directly after an air-dodge land. They could have altered the air-dodge the way it was altered in Brawl. They could have rewritten the physics engine.

you can't think of a valid argument so you quibble over semantics.... and why should wavedashing be 'fixed' what is wrong with it??? nothing, its not game breaking....

sorry hypnotist

 

[Hoboman725]

Please guys, we're just not going to agree, and Buzz feel free to crate another actual serious WD thread with a good arguement, but plase not here, this thread shouldn't be ruined.

haha, you fueled the machine and now it cannot be stopped

 

[user_name]

The physics do not explain why the black hole glitch happens AFAIK.

er... yes they do... if you read through how the game engine is programmed you can understand completely why it happens... and yes, it IS a fault on the side of the physics engine.

Please guys, we're just not going to agree, and Buzz feel free to crate another actual serious WD thread with a good arguement, but plase not here, this thread shouldn't be ruined.

unfortunately it all comes down to WDing. =/ It's sad, as it isn't even something which really makes or breaks a match.

you can't think of a valid argument so you quibble over semantics.... and why should wavedashing be 'fixed' what is wrong with it??? nothing, its not game breaking....

It shouldnt be fixed. Its an advanced tech which adds depth to the game, with little to no negative effect (such as it being 'broken', which it is not) with the exception of it looking ugly. (which doesn't actually matter.)

Try actually reading my posts next time.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Jeez, whatever, wavedashing is not in Brawl so what's the point of arguing about it anymore?

 

[Cless]

Because this is clearly the Melee boards.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Ok, so then the black hole glitch isn't a glitch because it was put in intentionally. The EFFECT wasn't intentional, but the the physical environment that allows the effect to be created is.

There are several ways wavedashing could have been fixed, they could have locked all control shortly after an airdodge land, they could have locked all jumping after an air-dodge land, they could have implemented a lag when a command is issued directly after an air-dodge land. They could have altered the air-dodge the way it was altered in Brawl. They could have rewritten the physics engine.



What? Friction levels are all intended.... It's just that Luigi's is very low... (which is fitting) All characters have SOME slide before their friction brings them to a halt...

OK, obviously, you cannot read, so I am done debating with you. Exploits relate to intention of creators. Glitches are when the game falls outside its structured boundaries (1+1=43 on a calculator; Captain Falcon falls through the center of Corneria).

 

[AlphaZealot]

I'm good, I may not be as good as you perhaps and maybe. But, I do feel confident enough in my abilities to say that I am quite good enough to not be considered "casual" as you might say. Regardless my skill level is not 100 percent relevant to the topic at hand. No one needs to be a Ken in order to post what you quoted from me on your post, I feel.

3. "Just don't be surprised when no one shows up, because virtually no one wants to play competitively with items. "

See kids here is an example of elitism, "no one wants to play competitively with items". My friend and I always play with items on Battlefield, and we are much better than your average run off the mill "noob". And I still win most my battles bar none, predominantly, I have been winning much more than he, items don't seem to be helping him -too- much. When you say such a thing with an absolute terminology such as "no one" you effectively try to say literally no one does, while I, a well skilled Smasher, do. I am humble and never would do such, and you are not, you are elitist.

But you see, your skill does matter because it is part of your justification in this replay to point number 3. When in reality, you are speaking from a casual standpoint, not a competitive one. I ask you this, would you pay $20 to play in an all stage, select items (hammers off, etc), FFA tournament. Would you? I've only been to one casual tournament, a 100 person free entry library tournament that run with the rules I just stated (and 3 stock 3 minute timers). I went there because a few of my competitive Smasher friends heard about it through their highschool, so I tagged along. No one could touch me, and I practically laughed my *** off every match as I could grab any item I wanted and usually remained relatively unharmed, as the players who approached would lose the one on one and immediately realize their best chance of continuing was to fight the other 2 people on the stage. The host of the tournament said I had the "best Peach he had ever seen". I'm not even in the top 10 in the country, I'm probably not even in the top 20.

Many competitive Smashers spend between $20 and $40 every 2 weeks to enter tournaments. They would not do so if they felt that money would be wasted by getting eliminated because of a pokeball, a bombomb, a 3v1 match, you name it. Casual players would never throw that money around, either, because they simply don't care enough. The moment you involve money is the moment you stop caring about items, FFA, every level, and "honorable" play. It may sound cold, but this cold, heartless style of play advances deeper into Smash than any casual player ever would in all their countless hours on a couch playing with their same 4 or 5 friends. The truth often hurts, and I suppose you'll say its also elitist, but I'm not going to sugar coat something for the benifit of a few.

Let's start with Link's jab to grab combo, Sakurai knew, the creators knew. I'm pretty about 85 percent sure they knew. They played the game extensively during testing and before hand. I never said we had to play as Sakurai intended, I myself short hop and l cancel when I need to. As for jumping off the ledge, grappling to the side and dying on purpose. That's not an exploit or glitch, that's just being silly; as such that argument is null on the issue of exploit/glitches.

You are 85% sure they knew? Just as you knew they intended for the game to be played with items on medium? Why? Because that is default. Well, I happened to notice that items become less and less frequent the higher the difficultly (or "skill") level in the game. If you play on very hard, you see almost no items. If we follow Sakurai's logic to its conclusion, he doesn't want the best of the best, the most talented, to use items.

 

[behemoth]

Hey Buzz, I am a casual player trying really hard to dial in the advanced techniques and get into some tourneys, just by way of a background for my comment.

I agree with nearly everything exactly the way you put it, but your post is indicative of a possibly overlooked facet of this hatred:

"going out of their way to spite those better than them"

wouldn't it be just as easy to say "competitive players"? I mean, I know that you (and likely I) think the two terms are synonyms, but this phrasing is just begging for a kneejerk reaction.

"do not want someone to play this game competitively"

really? There are actual people out there who are offended that someone is playing this game competitively? They should die, since the only way to play multiplayer SSB is competitively, either PvP or PvC.

I dunno, if this really comes down to some guy going red in the face because I had the nerve to put together a tournament, let him be pissy.

By the way, why isn't there someone making a giant, well-written post from the other viewpoint? Just curious.

 

[The Hypnotist]

Not any casuals have even attempted to refute the points in the orginal rant, silence is concession, so we win by default.

 

[element_of_fire]

Not any casuals have even attempted to refute the points in the orginal rant, silence is concession, so we win by default.

well thats no fun.... at least with wavedash we get a fight lol

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Hey Buzz, I am a casual player trying really hard to dial in the advanced techniques and get into some tourneys, just by way of a background for my comment.

I agree with nearly everything exactly the way you put it, but your post is indicative of a possibly overlooked facet of this hatred:

"going out of their way to spite those better than them"

wouldn't it be just as easy to say "competitive players"? I mean, I know that you (and likely I) think the two terms are synonyms, but this phrasing is just begging for a kneejerk reaction.

"do not want someone to play this game competitively"

really? There are actual people out there who are offended that someone is playing this game competitively? They should die, since the only way to play multiplayer SSB is competitively, either PvP or PvC.

I dunno, if this really comes down to some guy going red in the face because I had the nerve to put together a tournament, let him be pissy.

By the way, why isn't there someone making a giant, well-written post from the other viewpoint? Just curious.

Could you help me out and use quotes and cite sources? I'm a bit lost as to where you're pulling these from (and I don't know if it is even me saying them). O_o

 

[user_name]

OK, obviously, you cannot read, so I am done debating with you. Exploits relate to intention of creators. Glitches are when the game falls outside its structured boundaries (1+1=43 on a calculator; Captain Falcon falls through the center of Corneria).

A piece of software's programing defines it's structural boundaries, therefore, by your definition, there is no such thing as a glitch.

Not any casuals have even attempted to refute the points in the orginal rant, silence is concession, so we win by default.

1.) Go back to page one and read my first post. I consider myself a casual player.

2.) I didn't know this was a contest.

 

[behemoth]

I'll go ahead and throw a cog in the works, even though I'm a competitive (newb) tourney player:

It does come across as elitist to make "suck" and "casual" synonyms, along with "better" and "competitive". I mean, my dog could sign up for a tournament a month and be "better", while I could be sitting at home with a revolving circle of 10 friends practicing SHFFLs and mindgames, but still "suck" because I'm technically casual.

I think, drop the synonyms and half the crap goes away. Unless you're just having too much fun arguing.

Then by all means, carry on

 

[Hoboman725]

Not any casuals have even attempted to refute the points in the orginal rant, silence is concession, so we win by default.

I'm a little confused as to what there even is to debate?

 

[flyinfilipino]

I'm a casual player (I've been to one tournament), and I don't really appreciate being lumped into the group of people that thinks unlocking everything makes you the best and that items are the only way to go. I don't wavedash (but I can) but I didn't really need it to keep up with the tournament people anyway. When I went to my first tournament, I was putting up a good fight against 'competitive' players (what's up with that term anyway, casual players can be 'competitive'), without wavedashing (I don't really think it's important if you don't use it). And also, I only play often against one person (my brother), but apparently my play style was good enough to keep up. What's my point? I don't really know, I just felt like responding to represent 'casual competitive' players.

 

[behemoth]

A piece of software's programing defines it's structural boundaries, therefore, by your definition, there is no such thing as a glitch.



1.) Go back to page one and read my first post. I consider myself a casual player.

2.) I didn't know this was a contest.

Sorry, you lose. I am a programmer, and have worked on games in the past. And let me tell you, just because code compiles doesn't mean there aren't glitches.

BTW, glitches are a computer science term, and by their definition, WDing isn't a glitch. Its a case of the physics engine being exploited.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Sorry, you lose. I am a programmer, and have worked on games in the past. And let me tell you, just because code compiles doesn't mean there aren't glitches.

BTW, glitches are a computer science term, and by their definition, WDing isn't a glitch. Its a case of the physics engine being exploited.

You, sir, win the Internet.

 

[behemoth]

Could you help me out and use quotes and cite sources? I'm a bit lost as to where you're pulling these from (and I don't know if it is even me saying them). O_o

HAHAHAHAHA, I guess when I first looked at the thread you had made the last post and I thought you were OP. Oh well, these comments are for the hypnotist... but uh, Buzz... my bad. haha, I'm an idiot.

some people do not want other people to play a certain game competitively.



It is simply the anti-competitive crowd going out of their way to spite those who are better than them.

 

[user_name]

Sorry, you lose. I am a programmer, and have worked on games in the past. And let me tell you, just because code compiles doesn't mean there aren't glitches.

BTW, glitches are a computer science term, and by their definition, WDing isn't a glitch. Its a case of the physics engine being exploited.

I have been programing for the last 8 or so years, and have worked on games as well, and am working on an operating system right now. It's nice to meet another programmer on these boards. =)

Yes, your first paragraph was what I was intending to portray.

The combination of variables which create an environment which supports wavedashing is not a glitch. The lack of a preventative measure is a glitch. Lets imagine that there's no landing animation for ANY land with ANY type of motion. This is OBVIOUSLY a glitch. Now lets fix most of those situations, but overlook one specific situation, which, although somewhat tough to execute, requiring skill and adding depth to the game, still results in the same unintended situation.

How is this not a glitch?

 

[element_of_fire]

How is this not a glitch?

because the result in question (sliding) was the failsafe the programmers put in the game to prevent 'glitchy' things from happening when airdodging into the ground

 

[user_name]

because the result in question (sliding) was the failsafe the programmers put in the game to prevent 'glitchy' things from happening when airdodging into the ground

This obviously didn't work.

 

[Uchiharakiri]

But you see, your skill does matter because it is part of your justification in this replay to point number 3. When in reality, you are speaking from a casual standpoint, not a competitive one.

I play casually, but I do it competitively, meaning I use just about any skill you may see in a tournament in matches involving items and banned stages.

I ask you this, would you pay $20 to play in an all stage, select items (hammers off, etc), FFA tournament. Would you? I've only been to one casual tournament, a 100 person free entry library tournament that run with the rules I just stated (and 3 stock 3 minute timers). I went there because a few of my competitive Smasher friends heard about it through their highschool, so I tagged along. No one could touch me, and I practically laughed my *** off every match as I could grab any item I wanted and usually remained relatively unharmed, as the players who approached would lose the one on one and immediately realize their best chance of continuing was to fight the other 2 people on the stage. The host of the tournament said I had the "best Peach he had ever seen". I'm not even in the top 10 in the country, I'm probably not even in the top 20.
[/QUOTE]

Here it starts to sound as if you're bragging. But, yes, if I had the money I would, if I didn't though I wouldn't, just the kind of guy I am, I'll sign up to a tournament like that or the kind Ken and apparently you go to if I had the means and money.

Many competitive Smashers spend between $20 and $40 every 2 weeks to enter tournaments. They would not do so if they felt that money would be wasted by getting eliminated because of a pokeball, a bombomb, a 3v1 match, you name it. Casual players would never throw that money around, either, because they simply don't care enough. The moment you involve money is the moment you stop caring about items, FFA, every level, and "honorable" play. It may sound cold, but this cold, heartless style of play advances deeper into Smash than any casual player ever would in all their countless hours on a couch playing with their same 4 or 5 friends. The truth often hurts, and I suppose you'll say its also elitist, but I'm not going to sugar coat something for the benifit of a few.

I see you relate competitive Smashing to the tournament scene. And while you are right, I see competitive Smashing as playing to win with whatever technique at your disposal, be it at home or at any kind of tournament, this is why I say I'm confident in my abilities despite not being able to go to many tournaments. To answer your question. I play casually, and I'm heartless and cold at it, just like you.

You are 85% sure they knew? Just as you knew they intended for the game to be played with items on medium? Why? Because that is default. Well, I happened to notice that items become less and less frequent the higher the difficultly (or "skill") level in the game. If you play on very hard, you see almost no items. If we follow Sakurai's logic to its conclusion, he doesn't want the best of the best, the most talented, to use items.

Or, it could also just as equally mean that Sakurai intended the items to be removed so as to make it harder for people to progress along the game, and not because he did not want the best of the best, the most talented to use items. A sure sign of him not wanting "the best of the best" as you so state, to not use items, would be making it so that items completely disappeared from the game when it's setting was on Hard. But that is not so. And as such you assume that because there are less items, Sakurai had the best of the best, apparently you, in mind. Maybe he really just wanted it to be harder for everyone and not just something for "the most talented" to be challenged by. Think about it, if Sakurai had people like you in mind, do you think he really would bother to take items out or make them appear less at all, you'd still breeze by it period. Fact of the matter is, items still appear. He did not have the tournament scene in mind, he had the people who got good enough at the game without items in mind. Casual players and tournament goers alike can achieve this goal. Saying "most talented" and "best of the best" by the way came off as a little bit elitist, by the way, just a tad though.

Not any casuals have even attempted to refute the points in the orginal rant, silence is concession, so we win by default.

I'm a casual player, meaning you probably didn't even read my post aimed at you. Also, the above quote sounds very pretentious to me, just what I'm thinking. I mean really "Silence is concession"
"We win by default."


...Cmon.

 

[element_of_fire]

This obviously didn't work.

how didn't it work? you airdodge into the ground, you slide based on the characters preprogrammed friction.... and it works the SAME WAY, EVERY TIME... how is that a glitch

 

[Uchiharakiri]

Sorry, you lose. I am a programmer, and have worked on games in the past. And let me tell you, just because code compiles doesn't mean there aren't glitches.

BTW, glitches are a computer science term, and by their definition, WDing isn't a glitch. Its a case of the physics engine being exploited.

....Um...wasn't the game made in computers...

 

[The Hypnotist]

Excuse me... that was many, the M didn't register.

 

[DragonBlade]

BTW, this isn't my epic rant, what is posted in blue after the rant will be all mine though. I know there's been a lot of this, but I honestly think that all of my fellow smashers need to read this. Please get this stickyed, and please don't close this, it is incredibly important.

EVERYONE, PARTICULARLY CASUALS PLEASE READ ALL OF THE FOLLOWING. DON'T EVEN BOTHER RESPOND IF YOU DON'T READ THE ENTIRE THREAD!

Quote:
The crux of this debate is that some people do not want other people to play a certain game competitively. That's it. No one is asking the inverse, demanding that casual gamers play by their arbitrary set of rules. It is simply the anti-competitive crowd going out of their way to spite those who are better than them. Their "arguments" normally focus on some abstract "way the game was meant to be played", which we all know actually means "way I want to play the game". To this I can only say, who killed Sakurai and made YOU king?

For the misinformed, which includes most of the anti-competitive crowd, here are the standardized rules for Super Smash Bros. tournament play:
-4 Stock, 8 Minutes, Team Damage, No Items
-Both players choose one stage to ban for the set
-Both players pick characters at same time and go randomly to one of the six "neutral" stages.
-The loser determines the next stage to go to, from almost all of them. The loser also picks character second.
-Best out of three wins

Obviously, we have to talk about items. Items add luck to the game, period. If a good item appears next to you, you very well could instantly win. If a bomb or exploding container appears in front of your attack, you very well could instantly lose. Players don't like having their skill nullified by luck in a competition. Players enter tournaments to pit their skill against their opponent's, not to gamble. Items benefit top-tier characters more, period. It only widens the gap between characters. Most the high tier characters are fast and/or very aerial, giving them a massive advantage in obtaining items on the stage. Some people say that items were meant to balance the game, claiming that characters like Mewtwo and Pikachu were designed as item gods, and their low tier positions are due to items being banned. This is bull****. If an item spawns directly between Pikachu and Shiek, who will get to it first? Fox and Falco, two of the top characters, even have their reflectors to give them the upper hand even when their opponent has the items! Are you saying they need MORE advantages?

If you want to play competitively with items, go ahead. Make your own tournament. Tournaments are organized by players, not people who own stores. Just don't be surprised when no one shows up, because virtually no one wants to play competitively with items. Tourneys do not play with items because the people attending them don't want to, not because some evil tourney director is making them.

Next stages. Hyrule Temple sucks, ok? Let's get that out of the way first. The bottom zone makes it almost pure luck as to who kills who first, giving certain characters huge advantages and leading to REALLY long matches. If you want to organize a Hyrule Temple tourney, go ahead, no one will show up. The only other stages that are banned are ridiculous ones like Super Flat Zone that no one ever likes anyway.

Now then... The six "neutral stages." People act like tournaments only play on Final Destination, which is ridiculous, since it's only one of the six default stages even, and it's typically banned by a player if their opponent has a good Falco. Some tournaments even play with something called "Dave's stupid rule", which states that no stage can be played twice in a set of matches. Yoshi's Story, Fountain of Dreams, Pokemon Stadium, Battlefield, and Dream Land all receive just as much play as Final Destination, if not more. And those are only the initial stages! The other counter-pick stages just aren't included on Random so you don't get some ridiculous random match-up like fighting Peach or Jigglypuff on Mute City.

So why are there so many people who think tournaments are the scourge of Smash? It's simple really. Every fighting game suffers from this to some degree, but it has hit the Smash community particularly hard due to its "easy to learn, impossible to master" nature: Everyone and their dog thinks they are great at Smash, some are, but most suck. People seem to get the idea that just because they've unlocked all the stages and characters, that they are true masters of the game. Then one day, they come up against someone using advanced techniques with tournament rules, get destroyed, then become angry and bitter towards tournament rules and techniques like wave dashing.

So next time you get beaten by an advanced player ask for some advice rather than the usual, "Bawwwwww! Wave dashing and L-canceleing are such cheep glitches (PROTIP: they're not glitches). The game is supposed to be played on Hyrule Temple with full items." It's not like advanced players are in some secret club, and are determined to keep these techniques hidden from you just to maintain an advantage. With the exception of a few rare douche bags the whole notion of elitism is false, most advanced players would be more than happy to explain advanced techniques to you. Furthermore, it's not even that hard to learn them. In only a couple hours you can learn to wave dash, a couple more and you can learn to L-cancel. From there it's just a matter of practice until you can incorporate them into your game.

So what do casual players have to complain about? Nothing, the anti-competitive crowd just doesn't like the fact that some people are better than them at the game, and they don't want to put forth the effort to become better themselves. That's it. The can claim otherwise all day, but that's it.


Also. just some statements by myself that everyone should read...

The term newbs is not negative, it just simply means a novice player. Do some research on wavedashing and don't complain about it if you don't even know what it is. Don't expect items to be in tournaments in Brawl, it's very unlikley. Like most players I am willing to play anyone, and teach them to play with advanced techniques, they aren't secrets. Don't expect that just because wavedashing isn't in Brawl there will not be a gap between competitive and casual players. This should be the last thread about this argument.

I'm looking forward to hearing everyone's responses and again, please do not even attempt to respond if you don't read the thread, and mods I ask you with my heart, please don't close this thread.

Can we just sticky this thread and close new threads about this? There really shouldn't be many arguments to what The Hypnotist said, yet some people still feel compelled to waste our time with pointless attempts at debating it.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Blah blah, sticky the 'competitive' player's post, even though he wants responses from 'casual' players, but all of their opinions are 'pointless', blah.

By the way, no one responded to my previous post, so I win by concession.

 

[behemoth]

Well, this all depends on how the animations relate. I mean, it is a case of the mobile friction (or buffer box) of the "dodge" state of the character is such that they slide while ostensibly standing on ground.

The reason that I consider this to be an exploit and not a glitch is because it is the physics engine operating correctly as it was programmed that causes the animation priority or friction issue.

If it were other landings that were having issues, it would be from collision detection, or something else where the components weren't working together as planned.

Sorry if this doesn't make a whole lot of sense, a little tired (working on multithreading captive threads in an ActiveObject... ugh).

My other mini point is that Nintendo does extreme amounts of QA. It is almost unthinkable that this wouldn't have been reported to the designers/developers. The fact that it is in the game lends credibility to the idea that it was... if not intended, then at least allowed.

 

[user_name]

how didn't it work? you airdodge into the ground, you slide based on the characters preprogrammed friction.... and it works the SAME WAY, EVERY TIME... how is that a glitch

The black hole glitch works the same way every time. ANYTHING EVER PROGRAMED BY ANYONE works the same way every time.

How didn't it work? It didn't prevent glitchy-ness.

 

[Uchiharakiri]

Blah blah, sticky the 'competitive' player's post, even though he wants responses from 'casual' players, but all of their opinions are 'pointless', blah.

By the way, no one responded to my previous post, so I win by concession.

Man, I think you're better at debating than me just from that post...
Regardless, I feel I made some good but sadly ignored points. Such as this thread being a Melee thread, one with an overused topic at that; and because of this does not belong in Brawl, where there is a very very high chance that wave dashing will not be in it. Due to that alone does this topic I believe sadly must get locked regardless of all the fun debating we're having, and I agree with filipino, 100 percent, it's like filipino was in a boxing match and like, his opponent went in for a really heavy haymaker right?; but filipino ducked all swift like and just up and countered the opponent with an extremely nasty uppercut to the stomach. That's how I saw that.

 

[element_of_fire]

The black hole glitch works the same way every time. ANYTHING EVER PROGRAMED BY ANYONE works the same way every time.

How didn't it work? It didn't prevent glitchy-ness.

.... wow.... ok i'm done with you....

 

[The Hypnotist]

Drop the **** (why can't I say d-a-m-n?) wavedashing ****, please, and we need to make sure that the casuals are now informed that we don't just play on FD, and it's logical to play competitively with items.

 

[behemoth]

The black hole glitch works the same way every time. ANYTHING EVER PROGRAMED BY ANYONE works the same way every time.

How didn't it work? It didn't prevent glitchy-ness.

Really not trying to come across as an *******, but NO, not everything ever programmed works the same way every time. There are innumerable variables to consider when running large programs. Why does one of your favorite games crash three times in a row when you save in a certain area, but work the fourth time?

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

The black hole glitch works the same way every time. ANYTHING EVER PROGRAMED BY ANYONE works the same way every time.

How didn't it work? It didn't prevent glitchy-ness.

The game slows down immensely. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that's a glitch.

 

[Uchiharakiri]

Drop the **** (why can't I say d-a-m-n?) wavedashing ****, please, and we need to make sure that the casuals are now informed that we don't just play on FD, and it's logical to play competitively with items.

Once again, theres the casual that doesn't even know wavedashing exists, and then theres the casual that knows it does, and doesn't care if people do it. That would then leave the casuals who whine about it, which would be the people your post was mostly aimed at and sadly targeted a few of the innocent casual as well. Which would be pointless since they know you all just don't play on FD with no items, wave dashing, etc etc, and just care to whine about your using advanced techniques. -dodges bullet from the programming battle ensuing behind him-

Naa naaa...mendoksei...

By the way folks, glitch comes from a German word that means "slippery"...coincidence much...? hehehe. But seriously though, in video games a glitch refers to a programming error which results in behavior not intended by the video game programmers. And we all know that INITIALLY wave dashing was not intended to be in Smash at all, but by Melee, from what I hear, it was known of and allowed to be in. By that definition, wave dashing is indeed a glitch.

And this from Wikipedia(I know, sorry)

"In online multiplayer games, the word "glitch" can be used when there's a combination of keys allowing the player to play better than normal (example in FPS games, a glitch can be a combination of keys to shoot better, to run faster, etc.) and most of the times it is a bug of the game."

Now look at the buttons on the GC controller as keys. Nifty eh?

 

[behemoth]

More importantly - and this I think would be considered along the definitions of glitch/exploit if people would research the way software development works - the Black Hole is a bug that should have never made it out of alpha testing, and wouldn't have it had been discovered.

Many other techniques/glitches/exploits most likely would not have postponed game deployment, were they found.

But again, this isn't about WD or even my ridiculous good looks, it's about those two people in the world who hate to think of someone playing this game competitively (gasp).

 

[user_name]

Well, this all depends on how the animations relate. I mean, it is a case of the mobile friction (or buffer box) of the "dodge" state of the character is such that they slide while ostensibly standing on ground.

The reason that I consider this to be an exploit and not a glitch is because it is the physics engine operating correctly as it was programmed that causes the animation priority or friction issue.

If it were other landings that were having issues, it would be from collision detection, or something else where the components weren't working together as planned.

True, but it doesn't have to be a glitch resulting from the physics engine. There are several solutions other than rewriting the physics engine.

At the same time, the black hole glitch is the physics engine operating as expected. Unfortunately the result wasn't expected.

Sorry if this doesn't make a whole lot of sense, a little tired (working on multithreading captive threads in an ActiveObject... ugh).

What language, C++? Java? I know it's something that supports OOP. =P

My other mini point is that Nintendo does extreme amounts of QA. It is almost unthinkable that this wouldn't have been reported to the designers/developers. The fact that it is in the game lends credibility to the idea that it was... if not intended, then at least allowed.

Of course. That's why there aren't any glitches in SM64 or Zelda: OoT, or Smash, or any other Nintendo game.

 

[FireWater]

I expect this thread to be closed, it's just like every other before it. Now with that out of the way...my response!

Yes, sadly I read through all of that so I'll just respond to a few excerpts I found most thralling.


3. "Just don't be surprised when no one shows up, because virtually no one wants to play competitively with items. "

See kids here is an example of elitism, "no one wants to play competitively with items". My friend and I always play with items on Battlefield, and we are much better than your average run off the mill "noob". And I still win most my battles bar none, predominantly, I have been winning much more than he, items don't seem to be helping him -too- much. When you say such a thing with an absolute terminology such as "no one" you effectively try to say literally no one does, while I, a well skilled Smasher, do. I am humble and never would do such, and you are not, you are elitist.


I mean really...sticky?!...wow.

You are what we call in the online FPS community a "Pub Allstar"

The pub allstar claims to have enormous amounts of skill but never backs it up competitively. All I've read so far about your skill is that you can beat your friend consistently. How do I or the rest of this board for that matter know he does not suck?

How can you rate your skill if you have never been to a tournament?

 

[user_name]

More importantly - and this I think would be considered along the definitions of glitch/exploit if people would research the way software development works - the Black Hole is a bug that should have never made it out of alpha testing, and wouldn't have it had been discovered.

Many other techniques/glitches/exploits most likely would not have postponed game deployment, were they found.

But again, this isn't about WD or even my ridiculous good looks, it's about those two people in the world who hate to think of someone playing this game competitively (gasp).

1st of all, I'd like to point out that I have no problem with WDing, I do it myself, and believe it adds depth to the game.

2nd, you can't judge whether something is a glitch or not, based on how much it impedes the gameplay. 'Glitch' has a pretty cut-and-dry definition.

The game slows down immensely. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that's a glitch.

I'm glad we can at least agree on that. Now how is this different than WDing?


Anyway, Im off to bed.

Is anyone going to reply to the topic at hand (which is not the definition of glitches, btw)?

Probably not. Oh well. I hope this thread doesn't get locked anyway; I enjoy discussing the technical aspect to this.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Is anyone going to reply to the topic at hand (which is not the definition of glitches, btw)?