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PM 3.5 Stats List (Still WIP) Wavedash ranks added!

G13_Flux

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Messages
1,076
@ 1 1MachGO Do you plan to update this based on 3.5's changes? @ standardtoaster standardtoaster has made a great spreadsheet that should help quite a bit:


If you don't plan to update it, I'd like to see if I can get someone else to do so. It's been outdated for 3+ months now and I'd like to clean up the stickies in this section ^^
@ standardtoaster standardtoaster too

can i ask a few questions if you guys wouldnt mind about the spreadsheet? i know theyre kinda silly but i just like to understand what im looking at and learn how the game works.

-if so, first off, what is zakoboy/girl/ball/child?

-second, what is horizontal air mobility A and B? what is different about them, and why is jiggs so damn high on B compared to the rest (.19 compared to the next closest one at .04).

-third, i know max air mobility is how fast your maximum speed left and right is, but then why is there a max H speed which has everyone at 2.5?

-fourth, what is the grounded max H velocity that has everyone at 3 except ike and samus?

-lastly, why is there a normal landing and a light landing lag, which both have the same values for everyone (except gkoopa?). and arent these not even right? i thought most people had 4 frames of landing lag, with some having 5, and even less having 6. my testing in debug mode confirms this.
 

Taytertot

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 7, 2014
Messages
658
Location
Seattle, WA
Im curious if and when this would be updated? Id like to see where everyone is as of the 3.5 changes (i.e. ganon is now airborne 1 frame faster then he was in 3.02).
 

1MachGO

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
807
Working on WD and Waveland lengths right now

Dashdance stuff and other things will be up tomorrow
 

WildestSpade1

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 12, 2014
Messages
36
This guide is great! I think there are a few typos / not updated stuff still though. Under "Walk" The DK/Link/Sheik section doesn't have a tag (pretty sure it should be 1.2). Also, I'm pretty sure bowser's jump startup changed from 8 to 6 in 3.5. Under "air mobility" the second lucas (the one with fox under 0.08) should probably be meta knight. Also, under short hops, MK and DK are tied in stats but have their own entries, and I was just curious if this was an error.
 
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Hctaz

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 2, 2015
Messages
15
Wanted to go ahead and give you some things to update that I noticed. Jump start up frames for Ganon and Bowser have been adjusted. Ganon's is now 5 frames and Bowser's is now 6. On top of that, Ganon's spot dodge is now 2-15 inv frame interrupts on 22.
 

Chesstiger2612

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 1, 2013
Messages
1,753
Location
Bonn, Germany
@ 1 1MachGO Feel free to add some of the information that I have posted about here in the thread to the description, with an increasing amount of pages it gets less likely that people will go through all of them to search for additional information.
 

dude it's raining

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 1, 2014
Messages
236
Is there a list of techroll distances anywhere?
I know there's one for melee. You can check the animations for most chars in brawlbox. I dunno about a list. The general attitude right now is that with debug mode, the internet doesn't need frame data anymore. But maybe if I have time someday I'll make one.
 
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JRC LSS

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 7, 2010
Messages
157
I made a list of the aerial drift slopes of each character based on some testing. I threw each character up to a certain point on the left side of training room and had them hold right until they hit the ground. The slope is (# of vertical blocks)/(# of horizontal blocks), so a higher number means a steeper angle. It's not super accurate because it doesn't take any aerial accelerations into account, but it should still give a good idea of the angle everyone drifts at. Hopefully this could be helpful in comparing character recoveries.
1) Jigglypuff: 0.82
2) Mewtwo: 1.11
3) Squirtle: 1.17
4) Peach: 1.21
5) Zelda: 1.25
6) Wario: 1.29
7-10) Samus/Yoshi/Game and Watch/Kirby: 1.43
11) Charizard: 1.45
12-13) ZSS/Ness: 1.48
14) Olimar: 1.49
15-16) Sonic/Pit: 1.54
17) ROB: 1.59
18) Ivysaur: 1.60
19) Mario: 1.64
20) Lucario: 1.75
21) Toon Link: 1.79
22-25) Donkey Kong/Ike/Link/Luigi: 1.82
26-27) Lucas/Ice Climbers: 1.83
28) Meta Knight: 1.85
29) Pikachu: 1.90
30) Marth: 1.98
31-33) Snake/Wolf/Bowser: 2.00
34) Dedede: 2.04
35) Diddy Kong: 2.06
36-38) Roy/Sheik/Ganon: 2.11
39) Captain Falcon: 2.22
40) Fox: 2.53
41) Falco: 2.86
 
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Miryafa

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 19, 2014
Messages
142
What units are the speeds in? Pixels per frame? I'm mostly interested in the time portion, since I assume all frame data uses the same units of distance, and I want to calculate timings.

E.g. Zelda's max air velocity is 0.98, and her LK hitbox size is 5.08, so I assume that means if the opponent is standing still and Zelda is moving at max horiz. speed, she has about 5 frames to hit the LK; is that right?
 

Your Face

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 5, 2015
Messages
76
This is great! Thanks!

I don't mean to be demanding, but could you add grab speeds?
 

cisyphus

Smash Ace
Joined
May 2, 2014
Messages
672
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
Here are dash grabs (which are far more variable than standing grabs):
7-8 for Peach
8-9 for Lucario, Metaknight, Ness, Charizard, Squirtle, Sheik, and Icies
9-10 for Marth, Mewtwo, Pikachu, Rob, Roy, and Dedede
10-12 for Diddy, DK, G&W, and Zelda
10-11 for Kirby, Pit, Jigglypuff, Sonic, and Wario
11-25 for Olimar
11-22 for Yoshi
11-13 for Ike
11-12 for Falcon, Falco, Fox, Ganon, Snake, Luigi, and Wolf
12-19 for Link and Toon Link
12-14 for Ivysaur
12-13 for Bowser, Mario, and ZSS
15-23 for Lucas
17-30 for Samus
 

Shokio

Netplay 4 Days
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
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570
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Dallas/College Station, TX
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Shokio
What the heck? There should be no reason as to why ZSS has a slower dash grab than the tether characters. I just thought I was reacting way too slow in my tech chase reads cause people will just spot dodge but naw it's this dang grab lol.
 

Taytertot

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 7, 2014
Messages
658
Location
Seattle, WA
agreed i dont think it would overpower zss to have a more normal dash grab. id say mario and bowser could probably get faster dash grabs as well without breaking the characters, not that bowsers needs to be much faster considering his range but just a frame or so seems fair.
 

cisyphus

Smash Ace
Joined
May 2, 2014
Messages
672
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
lmao what is this discussion now. Stop.

Dash grabs literally don't matter for ZSS or Mario. There's no reason to use them when both have such good JC grabs.

now SNAKE on the other hand...
 
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InfinityCollision

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
Messages
1,245
ZSS dash grab was intentionally adjusted for differing vertical coverage. You JC grab anyway because it's slower, has significantly more end lag, and the two otherwise cover almost exactly the same space.

****'s kinda dumb tbh.
 
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DrinkingFood

Smash Hero
Joined
May 5, 2012
Messages
5,600
Location
Beaumont, TX
You do realize ZSS grab is supposed to grab crouching characters when her JC grab won't right? there literally is a reason to use it lol
Even so, nobody was complaining about it being bad, just wondering why it's comparatively so bad
 

cisyphus

Smash Ace
Joined
May 2, 2014
Messages
672
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
You do realize ZSS grab is supposed to grab crouching characters when her JC grab won't right? there literally is a reason to use it lol
Even so, nobody was complaining about it being bad, just wondering why it's comparatively so bad
I know that's how it's "intended" but they did the same thing with Snake's grab in 3.5, and the changes were actually really bad 'cause it only worked in very specific circumstances and was reverted in 3.6. Nobody actually used the dash grab for that purpose because it plainly didn't work consistently. I'll admit I don't know the exact details of ZSS's grab, but historically this kind of dash grab utility isn't properly implemented.
 
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Taytertot

Smash Ace
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Feb 7, 2014
Messages
658
Location
Seattle, WA
i dont feel that dash grab, due to the requirements to use it, is a very solid strategic way to deal with crouching opponents and shouldn't be made as such. If an opponent starts crouching i cant think of many legitimately good reasons to try to dash up to grab them. If im close to the opponent then im not going to want to start up a dash so that i can dashgrab them because they could just throw out an attack. so i could try to do a cross up dash grab but again that seems very suboptimal and more of a mixup at heart. if theyre crouching from far away then i could try to DD and catch them offguard with the dashgrab but thats a risk. or i could make a read that they are about to crouch and dashgrab preemptively but i still run into the same problem of it being pretty unsafe and definitely not a go to option.
 

cisyphus

Smash Ace
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May 2, 2014
Messages
672
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
At least with snake boost grab has some utility, given its slightly extended range (although I wanna test it vs JC more thoroughly). ZSS doesn't have this benefit at all. I'd sooner bait a reaction than go for such a niche coverage option. :/
 

Mc.Rad

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 15, 2014
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Rock Hill, SC
Switch FC
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I honestly find it funny that Yoshi is considered to be one of the most heaviest characters in the game next to characters that are bigger than him like Bowser and DDD
 

Cubelarooso

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 19, 2007
Messages
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[Hide my Location]
Dinosaurs are big, of course.

@ standardtoaster standardtoaster
Can we get some magic number boxes for 3.6?
Speaking of which, while browsing I noticed the most amazing easter egg, which is apparently even in Brawl's file: Despite being immune to grabs, Giga Bowser has data for the damage he would cause as a star shot by Kirby. It's 62.
 
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G13_Flux

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Messages
1,076
PM ledge dash (and ledge jump > WL) grounded actionable intangibility frames:

17 frames: Bowser*
14 frames: Fox, Olimar
13 frames: Squirtle, Ice Climbers
12 frames: Falco, Pikachu, Kirby, Sonic, Mario
11 frames: Luigi, MK
10 frames: Shiek, Wolf, Toon Link, ZSS, Ivysaur, Jiggs, Pit, ROB, Wario
9 frames: Lucario, Charizard, Zelda*
8 frames: Diddy, Roy, GW, Marth*, DK*, Peach*, Link
7 frames: Captain Falcon, Samus*, Ganon*
6 frames: Ike, Marth, Zelda, Mewtwo
5 frames: Snake
4 frames: Samus, Yoshi*, Ness*, Lucas, Lucas*
3 frames: DDD*, DK, Ganon
2 frames: Bowser, DDD
0 frames: Yoshi
-2 frames: Ness
-7 frames: Peach

Some characters names appear twice: once normally, and once with an * next to it. The fact that their name appears twice means that they possess a faster ledge jump > WL as opposed to a ledge dash (< 100% ledge jump, btw). When their names appear normally, without the *, it signifies the frame data of their normal ledge dash, whereas the * signifies the frame data of their < 100% ledge jump > WL. Characters like bowser are a huge outlier, and would have had a 2 frame ledge dash if done by the normal let go > jump > WL method, but instead he actually has the best frame data under 100% thanks to PM mechanics. This represents a big difference from melee, as ledge jumps in melee werent actionable until somewhere near the apex of the jump.

It seems that there are a number of factors that go into these numbers. character size, stage shape, vertical jump velocity, jump animation, and airdodge animation (thus affecting when you will collide with the floor) all look like things that affect a characters ability to quickly get off the ledge and make contact with the floor to gain as many actionable frames as possible. For instance, Roy inputs an air dodge on frame 17 (with frame 1 being when the ledge was first grabbed) and accquires 8 frames of actionable intangibility. On the other hand, Diddy needs to wait until frame 19 to air dodge, but his animations seem to let him land on stage earlier, and thus he also acquires 8 frames of actionable intangibility.

Also, these were tested in debug mode by attempting to WL on stage (FD) at the earliest possible frame out of a ledge hop (ledge drop on frame 9 after grabbing the edge, immediately jumping and holding towards the stage, WLing at the earliest possible frame, then holding shield, and counting intangibility frames once the shield appeared). The ledge jumps can occur on frame 7, so the same method was used (testing for earliest possible WL). Why the window is different for ledge jumps/rolls/get ups as opposed to simply ledge dropping is beyond me. there does exist the possibility that i may be off by a frame or two here and there, but these numbers represent actionable invincibility that I REPEATEDLY acquired in debug mode after several trials per character. thus, if there is any error, it is because there is some extremely specific level spacing/timing/tilting of control stick/ etc. that will allow the character to acquire maybe another frame of intangibility. for all practical purposes, this list can be considered a very good representation of a characters ledge dash ability.

edit:
Another thing to note is that Link only has 33 frame of intangibility upon grabbing the ledge, although he can ledge drop on frame 5 as opposed to everyone else being able to ledge drop on frame 9. another sort of oddball in the mix.
 
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Strong Badam

Super Elite
Administrator
Premium
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Messages
26,545
Link can drop from the ledge faster than any other character, his ledge grab animation should be 4 frames while others are 8.
 
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