PKAY FIAH! ~ Ness MU Discussion [INDEX PAGE + Various Discussions]

[GwJ]

You should've fought back turned your wii off.

 

[Uffe]

Really quick, guy with that girl avatar, Who is This Girl?

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

We are discussing Ness at the Pokemon Trainer boards, please drop by and give your wisdom.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7863351

 

[kennypu]

just my 2 cent real quick:
this match up I feel is slightly in favor of snake. only because he can grab release to utilt which is gay.

 

[Uffe]

What else is new? But usually Snake mains like to tech chase, right? So the grab > u-tilt is pretty rare, I'd think. I've never actually seen a Snake do this to a Ness. I've seen him do that to a Samus, but that's because the other player stayed there because they thought Snake was going to tech chase.

 

[Man of Popsicle]

I like Norfair vs. Snake. His explosives turn worthless, he can't dacus, and has like no room to techchase.

 

[Uffe]

I thought I'd go ahead and take a whack at this list. This is the way I see it.

Major advantages: 70-30

Advantages: 60-40

Bowser

Fox

Jigglypuff


Slight advantages: 55-45

Captain Falcon

Diddy

Ike

Link

Olimar

Samus

Yoshi

Zero Suit Samus


Even: 50-50

Kirby

Lucario

Lucas

Luigi

Pikachu

Sonic

Zelda


Slight disadvantage: 45-55

Donkey Kong

Falco

Ice Climbers

Mario

Peach

Pit

R.O.B.

Toon Link


Disadvantage: 40-60

King DeDeDe

Marth

Metaknight

Sheik

Snake

Wario

Major disadvantage: 30-70

 

[Levitas]

I think some of those slight disadvantages are a little more than slight, but that's a pretty good list.

 

[Coffee™]

So.... I'm wondering since I haven't really seen it discussed much if at all how much the walking CGs characters like MK, Fox, Falco, Pit....etc have on Ness contribute to these matchup ratios? I'm pretty sure being able to rack up 20+ % per grab across small stages like Smashville and more across the larger stages would make his matchups with these characters a bit worse than what you guys currently have listed here.

 

[Uffe]

I don't think Fox or Pit have CG's on Ness. I know Pit can grab, f-throw or d-throw, I can't remember and then grab again. But I believe that's only because people don't expect it. I know Meta Knight has a grab release on Ness, but it's nothing major. I've seen it used and the Meta Knight still lost to the Ness. If you can guess who these two players were, I'll give you a cookie. Both were at SiN.

As for Falco, yeah, he's got an annoying CG, but same deal as Meta Knight. It's good for racking up damage, but Ness can also rack up a lot of damage just as quick. His CG I believe doesn't do a whole lot. It only does about 30-40% I think.

Another thing, since you've decided to bring up different stages, grab releases and CG's then become almost useless. So then suddenly the match up changes? It wouldn't be right just for us to say Ness vs Marth 100:0, Marth. Grab releases and CG's don't determine a match up alone.

 

[Coffee™]

I don't think Fox or Pit have CG's on Ness. I know Pit can grab, f-throw or d-throw, I can't remember and then grab again. But I believe that's only because people don't expect it. I know Meta Knight has a grab release on Ness, but it's nothing major. I've seen it used and the Meta Knight still lost to the Ness. If you can guess who these two players were, I'll give you a cookie. Both were at SiN.

As for Falco, yeah, he's got an annoying CG, but same deal as Meta Knight. It's good for racking up damage, but Ness can also rack up a lot of damage just as quick. His CG I believe doesn't do a whole lot. It only does about 30-40% I think.

I don't mean CGs as in like Falco's Dthrow CGs. I mean "X" character grabs Ness, pummels until he ground breaks, then proceeds to walk and regrab him. Ness basically goes nowhere. Rinse and repeat. A bunch of characters can do it to him and I have never seen it mentioned before and it works at any percentage and obviously racks up a lot of damage and refreshes the opposing characters moves quite easily.

Another thing, since you've decided to bring up different stages, grab releases and CG's then become almost useless. So then suddenly the match up changes? It wouldn't be right just for us to say Ness vs Marth 100:0, Marth. Grab releases and CG's don't determine a match up alone.

They don't but to assume someone like Marth is 60:40 with Ness when Marth can infinite him on a whim seems a bit much in Ness' favor. I'd probably see it as that if he didn't have one but with the ratio you guys have it doesn't seem like you're taking that into consideration.

 

[_clinton]

I think we need to go into more detail about what are match up ratios mean...

 

[AvariceX]

Ness is hard to grab.

I'm convinced that no one who doesn't main Ness has any credibility in determining match-up ratios with Ness for people who have death-grabs against Ness until they play someone at least as good at avoiding grabs as I am.

I'm not that good.

 

[Uffe]

I don't mean CGs as in like Falco's Dthrow CGs. I mean "X" character grabs Ness, pummels until he ground breaks, then proceeds to walk and regrab him. Ness basically goes nowhere. Rinse and repeat. A bunch of characters can do it to him and I have never seen it mentioned before and it works at any percentage and obviously racks up a lot of damage and refreshes the opposing characters moves quite easily.

They don't but to assume someone like Marth is 60:40 with Ness when Marth can infinite him on a whim seems a bit much in Ness' favor. I'd probably see it as that if he didn't have one but with the ratio you guys have it doesn't seem like you're taking that into consideration.

A lot of characters can do this to Wario but does that really affect him? No. Characters that can be CG'd can end up 50:50. I just checked the Ice Climbers boards to see what their say was on Ness vs IC's. They say it's 50:50 and we all know that the IC's can infinite every character in Brawl excluding themselves unless solo. If you want use to make a separate ratio for chain grabs/releases and infinites, I suppose we can do that.

I do take these sort of things into consideration, but this won't completely tell us who does better than who, or the Ice Climbers would beat out everybody. With different stages that are able to counterpick, what are they going to do without their chain grabs/releases and infinites? More than likely Falco's CG won't do as good on a stage like Brinstar or wherever slants are at.

When DSF fought FOW's Ness with his Meta Knight, he knew that he could grab release FOW, but with good spacing, FOW ended up winning. There was a part during that match where FOW did get grab released and pummeled, but again, FOW still ended up winning and this match up is already 60:40.

So this brings me back to Wario, a character with a lot of characters who can grab release him. His match ups aren't that bad. We all know ZSS has a grab release on Wario, but it's a 50:50 match up anyway.

 

[AvariceX]

I might as well take a shot at some matchup ratios...

This is all personal experience really so I don't expect it to be perfectly accurate:

Major Advantage (70:30)


Advantage (60:40)
:shiek:

Slight Advantage (55:45)


Even (50:50)


Slight Disadvantage (45:55)


Disadvantage (40:60)


Major Disadvantage (70:30)
(not just because of death-grab)

Possible changes:
ZSS from Major Disadvantage to Disadvantage
ROB from Disadvantage to Major Disadvantage
Dedede from Slight Disadvantage to Disadvantage
Dedede from Slight Disadvantage to Even (wut?)
Jiggs from Major Advantage to Advantage
Kirby from Disadvantage to Slight Disadvantage
Pit from Slight Disadvantage to Disadvantage
G&W from Disadvantage to Major Disadvantage

Other than that I don't see our matchups ever looking much different than this unless something HUGE is found.

I just went back over the list and realized that I have played as Ness against every single character in the game in tournament.

 

[Eagleye893]

yay! more people saying grab releases and chain grabs don't mean anything!
really, they don't. if someone is knowledgeable enough to think "oh, i could get infinited/chaingrabbed by this character, so i should try to avoid the grab a little bit better" then they don't need to worry at all. falco's CG doesn't go for long at all and can easily be avoided and taken advantage of, because the falco player will want you at a low percent to get off the chain grab. they will go for the grab more often at earlier percents (unless they are smart) and end up leaving themselves open for attacks quite a bit.

Now judging a matchup ratio is going to need some sort of overhaul... there are stages to be counterpicked that easily increase chances for one character. there are some techniques and tricks to fighting a character to make it somewhat easier, such as chaingrabs and gimps, that are easily considered and avoided by good players. I would really say, as of right now for me, matchup ratios don't mean much of anything with ness or a couple of other characters because nobody factors in every point in both characters playstyles, but yet nobody ever can.

I thought I'd go ahead and take a whack at this list. This is the way I see it.

Major advantages: 70-30

Advantages: 60-40
Bowser
Fox
Jigglypuff


Slight advantages: 55-45
Captain Falcon
Diddy
Ike
Link
Olimar
Samus
Yoshi
Zero Suit Samus


Even: 50-50
Kirby
Lucario
Lucas
Luigi
Pikachu
Sonic
Zelda


Slight disadvantage: 45-55
Donkey Kong
Falco
Ice Climbers
Mario
Peach
Pit
R.O.B.
Toon Link


Disadvantage: 40-60
King DeDeDe
Marth
Metaknight
Sheik
Snake
Wario

Major disadvantage: 30-70

I say the falco matchup is even, peach is even, lucas is slight advantage us, DK is even... but basically everything else i'm fine with overall.
I define matchup ratio from now on to be the chance of each character in the matchup winning when both players know and use all techniques to their advantage and are at a stage that doesn't favor one character over another... any other suggestions or edits?

EDIT: .... I thought there was someone missing. ganon in major advantage us.
@ avericeX: whyd you put ZSS so good against us?

 

[Coffee™]

A lot of characters can do this to Wario but does that really affect him? No. Characters that can be CG'd can end up 50:50. I just checked the Ice Climbers boards to see what their say was on Ness vs IC's. They say it's 50:50 and we all know that the IC's can infinite every character in Brawl excluding themselves unless solo. If you want use to make a separate ratio for chain grabs/releases and infinites, I suppose we can do that.

You're not getting where I'm coming from. CGs are what make the ICs as good as they are. For one thing Ness isn't Wario and you can't outright compare them like that.. I don't think two ratios are necessary, I just think it would be better if you made one ratio that actually represents what can and probably will happen in a matchup's worse/best circumstances.

When DSF fought FOW's Ness with his Meta Knight, he knew that he could grab release FOW, but with good spacing, FOW ended up winning. There was a part during that match where FOW did get grab released and pummeled, but again, FOW still ended up winning and this match up is already 60:40.

I'm pretty sure DSF didn't do this same CG I'm talking about. He probably did the running one which doesn't result in a lot of damage. With this cg adding an additional 20 or so percentage per grab and that can end in a Dsmash at the end of the stage, coupled with MKs ability to space well against Ness, as well as gimp him I'd think it would be a bit worse than 60:40.

So this brings me back to Wario, a character with a lot of characters who can grab release him. His match ups aren't that bad. We all know ZSS has a grab release on Wario, but it's a 50:50 match up anyway.

Wario has the tools to deal with most of them though, thats why his matchups are as they are. Again, Ness isn't comparable to him like that and iirc ZSS doesn't infinte him anyway.

I define matchup ratio from now on to be the chance of each character in the matchup winning when both players know and use all techniques to their advantage and are at a stage that doesn't favor one character over another... any other suggestions or edits?

EDIT: .... I thought there was someone missing. ganon in major advantage us.
@ avericeX: whyd you put ZSS so good against us?

I think Pit is 60:40 vs him and Mk is probably 65:35.....CGs to the edge of the stage which end in Fsmash and Dsmash respectively aren't something that be easily brushed off....

 

[_clinton]

Dude there is no way DK is an even match...

Also Ness has the tools to deal with foes that have grab release stuff as well I might add...god his air game is down right crazy good...it isn't just Wario...Hell people view Lucas as being able to deal with it as well

Oh and Zamus isn't a 7:3 as well...

 

[MrEh]

Advantages: 60-40
Bowser

55-45 is more beleivable.

Bowser's outrageous Fortress and Ftilt are too good.

 

[AvariceX]

@ avericeX: whyd you put ZSS so good against us?

Personal experience mostly...One of the guys I travel to tourneys with seconds ZSS and I've found the matchup to be absolutely impossible. I thought it was obviously possible that maybe just the knowledge of my play-style gave him the edge. I Played a different ZSS main in a tourney recently who I had never played before so he wouldn't have any knowledge of how to play against me. He played slightly different but similar to our friend and ***** me. Everything I tried to do was shut down completely. Maybe I'm just really, really, really bad at the matchup.

That player got 2nd last seed in our pool so he's nothing extraordinary.

 

[CometStar]

Unless the ZSS mains I've played are trash, I doubt Ness has that many problems against her. From my experience superior spacing and use of Ness's good air game normally do the trick.

Also, I'm not sure but I believe Ref beat Snakeee before quitting Brawl. Don't quote me on that though.

 

[Uffe]

Oops. It appears my list has some flaws in it. :S I forgot that Bowser is 55:45. Totally slipped my mind.

 

[AvariceX]

It's not that it's flawed (unless you truly believe that). It's simply a difference of opinions. I seem to be the only Ness who thinks ZSS ***** us =/.

 

[Uffe]

Actually the match up discussion with Ness vs Bowser was said to be 55:45, Ness' favor. He's big and all, but he's still a threat to Ness. Looking back at my list, I think ZSS is okay where she's at if she's not 50:50. I've fought some ZSS' myself and my brother uses her as well. If you really want to see a few Ness vs ZSS videos, watch ViceGrip vs FadedImage. Those are entertaining. I think ZSS has a grab release on Ness, but it'd most likely be used as a kill move when she gets Ness at high percent, otherwise there really is no point using it.

 

[MrEh]

Actually the match up discussion with Ness vs Bowser was said to be 55:45, Ness' favor.

Yup.

Bowser's Ftilt just smacks Ness out of most aerial approaches, and Fortress OoS wrecks.

It makes Ness approach differently, and it's one helluva defense.

 

[NessBrawler]

dedede has a advantage against ness. I didn't see that coming! Can somebody tell me how...

 

[AvariceX]

I'm still actually convinced Ness has the advantage, even after playing Lain. I just put it as Dedede's advantage in my list since that seems to be the consensus on both boards and I didn't feel like arguing it -_-.

As for ZSS; I watched the ViceGrip vs FadedImage matches a long time ago when they were posted. Then I watched them again after getting railed by my buddy's ZSS thinking it might help. It didn't really help since videos aren't a good way to learn matchups due to people having different play-styles. I just watched the videos again and Faded plays nothing like the ZSS's I've played except for the last 15 seconds or so of game 4. Retreating SH'ed ZSS side-b shuts down Ness' approaches...it's really annoying, and ZSS's I play against abuse the **** out of it.

 

[Uffe]

@ NessBrawler: Some would agree with you, as well as as AvariceX. We did have a discussion on this, but I can't really recall most of it. I personally find King DeDeDe difficult because his strength and is hard to kill. But that's just me. I might have figured a way out how to deal with him, though.

@ AvariceX: If you think the match up ratio is different, feel free to explain why. I'd like to see what you have to say about it. And you beat Lain? As for ZSS, I do recall the treating to forward B. That annoys me to no end. I remember fighting Quik2288's ZSS and he did the same thing against me. I can't recall if I beat his ZSS, it's been a long time. Your best option against that is probably PK Thunder at a distance.

 

[AvariceX]

@ AvariceX: If you think the match up ratio is different, feel free to explain why. I'd like to see what you have to say about it. And you beat Lain? As for ZSS, I do recall the treating to forward B. That annoys me to no end. I remember fighting Quik2288's ZSS and he did the same thing against me. I can't recall if I beat his ZSS, it's been a long time. Your best option against that is probably PK Thunder at a distance.

I never beat lain; though I have played him in tourney twice. Even after playing his D3 with Ness I'm not convinced it's D3's advantage (lain is an incredible player).

As for ZSS, my main problem is I probably just need to learn to play against her in general. She was one of the characters I considered maining for a long time and I used to secondary her yet I still feel like I don't understand her very well.

 

[Man of Popsicle]

I never understood why our dedede matchup is anything worse than 55:45.

 

[Uffe]

I never beat lain; though I have played him in tourney twice. Even after playing his D3 with Ness I'm not convinced it's D3's advantage (lain is an incredible player).

As for ZSS, my main problem is I probably just need to learn to play against her in general. She was one of the characters I considered maining for a long time and I used to secondary her yet I still feel like I don't understand her very well.

Yeah, no doubt about Lain. For ZSS, I can see where you're going with the match up, though. Her forward B is dangerous and it is fairly difficult for Ness to approach that. If you do figure a way around it, though, then what is the ZSS going to do? Her attacks alone are pretty quick, though. Those rack up really fast. I believe her jabs are one frame but I could be wrong.

 

[Man of Popsicle]

Well, it depends, was lain under the influence or not?

 

[Uffe]

If you have to use drugs to win, that's pretty low.

 

[AvariceX]

Yeah, no doubt about Lain. For ZSS, I can see where you're going with the match up, though. Her forward B is dangerous and it is fairly difficult for Ness to approach that. If you do figure a way around it, though, then what is the ZSS going to do? Her attacks alone are pretty quick, though. Those rack up really fast. I believe her jabs are one frame but I could be wrong.

You aren't wrong, ZSS jab is 1 frame (along with Squirtle and Pika; fastest jabs in the game). Her uair is amazing against Ness too...it's so fast and our dair is...not.

Well, it depends, was lain under the influence or not?

That's the dumbest question I've ever heard XD.

 

[Eagleye893]

consider some people who play extremely competitively lowlifes then. I overheard some stuff at one of the Clash of brokenness tournaments and someone was talking about how some people go out and do some drugs before a tournament... I would absolutely never do something like that, but my eavesdropping self seemed to pick up something that makes me feel less like trying to be competitive.

DDD matchup should be maybe slight advantage DDD... but i played this one DDD that i swear i should have beaten both times that could just destroy me with the chaingrab.

who are we even discussing though, cause i thouught we agreed to 60:40 snake a long time ago.

That's the dumbest question I've ever heard XD.

It might be slightly less dumb than you think... lain often goes to the CoB, but i don't know if he is among the group of people who would do such things.

DON'T QUOTE ME ON ANYTHING! THE STUFF ABOUT PEOPLE DOING DRUGS TO DO BETTER IN TOURNAMENTS IS ONLY BY WHAT I'VE HEARD, I DONT KNOW FOR A FACT!

 

[AvariceX]

I know of more people who smoke green at or before tourneys than people who don't. I also know of at least one person now who takes adderall, although it's actually prescribed for him so that's legit and not just someone trying to get an unfair boost.

 

[Jtails]

id say D3 has an advantage over ness, playing atomsk/leo here in new york i do not like the match up lol.
the chain grab, hard to land a kill, getting gimped offstage. its just not fun.
even if you short hop and space properly he can grab you out of the air sometimes. he can outcamp ness =/
id say 60:40 in D3 favor.

yea uffe ZSS jabs are 1-2 frames as is D3's spot dodge. zss i think is even on ness. ive played dmt a bit.
shes really light so unused bair/bthrow kills around 100 depending on stage and position.
ness can absorb her Dsmash and shot if you see it coming.
shes faster, and hard to hit with Dair so shed probably keep juggling with utilts and uairs.
id say 50:50 maybe even 55:45 for ness.

those are just my 2 cents..

 

[AvariceX]

Dedede shouldn't ever be gimping you as Ness. None of his moves have a low enough knockback angle (except dtilt which you shouldn't get hit by too often and dthrow which doesn't send you far enough away from the stage) to prevent you from just recovering way above where Dedede can reach you because of his terrible air speed and mobility. Then just be smart about how you move around him on the way down (Ness has full control over his free-fall) and don't land somewhere he'll grab you again.

*edit: just remembered D3 can dtilt Ness after a dthrow...so DI up*

 

[Jtails]

ah thanks ill take note =]

 

[Uffe]

Hey, any pro tips can and will be useful to my game play. I'll try to remember DIing upward if he throws me down. As for out-camping, ain't that the truth? I was fighting possibly the campiest D3 I've ever met in my life. He'd run the timer to the last minute. I had lost the first match, made a comeback on the second and bair'd him out on the third match with only thirty seconds left! It was so annoying that I nearly quit.