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Piklopedia - The Olimar Matchup Thread (1st ed. complete, open discussion)

Myran

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Olimar dittos are a special kind of fun in this game. I think it comes down to whichever Olimar uses the Pikmin properties better. By that I mean hitlag extension, and just knowing how Pikmin "priority" work. You wanna do your usual Olimar game, but not get to greedy since there's gonna be a lot of fsmashes being thrown. Honestly I don't know how to explain this MU to much without just playing it.
 

-The Gucci Fairy-

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Discussion for the Villager and Ness matchups is now closed. Thanks for the responses.

:4ness: is an even matchup.

:4villager: is a advantageous/heavily advantageous matchup, but this is only tentative because the opinions given here is either "heavy advantage" or "heavy disadvantage", with advantage only winning out 2-1.

------------------------

With this week's discussion included, a little less than half of the characters in the game have been (generally) covered, all of them threats to consider in a tournament. What's left is to cover the other half:

:4lucas::4charizard:
:4bowserjr::4tlink:
:4falco::4samus:
:4link::4marth:/:4lucina::4feroy:
:4wiifit::4drmario::4littlemac:
:4jigglypuff::4kirby::4dedede:
:4gaw::4duckhunt::4shulk:
:4palutena::4zelda::4robinm:
:4bowser::4mewtwo::4ganondorf:
:4miibrawl::4miisword::4miigun:
:4cloud::4corrin::4bayonetta:

Aside from the last three DLC characters, all of them have been put into separate discussion groups, shown above. However, these groups aren't in order of when they'll be discussed because I haven't decided on that yet.

So, since there's only one character in this current discussion, I want some opinions on what characters should be given priority. Preferably, I want them before this discussion ends so I have some ideas on how to organize the upcoming weeks, but any suggestions after this week are still welcome.

:4cloud: will be appended to whatever set of characters is discussed on the first week of February, given his performance in several tournaments. :4corrin: and :4bayonetta: will be covered about 6-8 weeks as a separate set after their release depending on their tournament performances.

EDIT: Forgot about Shulk.

------------------------

Discussion 12 - BINGO BATTLE!

:4olimar:/:4alph:

Olimar Frame Data

No quotes this time.

Since there's only one matchup this week, discussion will be closed a little earlier on Friday, January 15.
I say toon link, Lucas(grab FAF buffs,lotta free stuff he has) or maybe Bowser(hoohah-bowser version buff) since I feel like olimar has better matchups vs the other undiscussed characters
 
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koken

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Agreed with Myran. The ditto MU it's decided just by knowledge and getting advantage of certain exactly situations.
Also the ability to read your opponent it's crucial, so there isn't a good planning way to play against "ourself".

I played against Myran and he used the hitlag extension perfectly to wreck me, as he said.

In my humble opinion, I thinks this MU isn't necessary to discuss heavily at all.
 

Kon

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I know I'm too late for a statement on the villager MU, but I'm almost convinced, Villager is an advantageous MU. Therefore I want to say my points on the MU. I know both sides as I mained Villager a while ago and for a pretty long time had a Villager second while maining Olimar.

@Jompa
I don't get your points. Olimar doesn't have to approach in the MU and the most obvious reason for this was already mentionned twice. The fsmash beats the lloid rocket by still having an active hitbox. This is something huge in the match-up. You can literally fsmash every lloid rocket he's throwing at you. Also Olimar's Side B goes through the tree making it easy to throw pikmin at any situation at him. If you're spacing your side bs right(I recommend throwing pikmin at him from the air because of a good and safer angle), he won't be able to catch you. In this MU I would recommend to have only one purple at max. It's more useful to have two Pikmin with good fsmash range than having two purples out. Also one purple is more than enough to sometimes approach with purple side b to grab stuff.
I feel like you can get stagecontrol against Villager pretty easy, because you can beat his lloid rocket. Villager likes to use lloid rocket setups such as lloid rocket combined with a fair(catching a potential jump over the lloid rocket), lloid rocket to grab(catching someone who shields the rocket), lloid rocket combined with a dash attack(covering a roll back). These setups are useless against an Olimar who always destroys his lloid rocket. You don't jump, so he won't catch your jump. You don't need to roll or shield, because you throw out a hitbox that destroy the rocket. (which means he will be hit by your fsmash and doesn't get a grab and can't hit you with the dash attack first)
Villager can approach with lloid rocket + SH dair or nair. However no Villager ever made use of this against me. And even if, I think you should be able to first destroy the lloid rocket with an uncharged fsmash, then shield the dair/nair and right afterwards pivotgrab him. Even if not, you can still shield, run away(or if necessarily roll forward to avoid the lloid rocket) and then side b him. Villager has a hard time approaching against Olimar. Even the ledge-camping tactic won't work that well, because you can fsmash his lloid rocket as well as his fair.
Villager's fair and bair are hard to hit Olimar with because he is so small. He will probably use the bair more often than the fair as the bair hits a bit lower than the fair.
The key in the match-up is to not get offstage and to avoid recovering low. You don't want to go offstage. You really don't. Because if you do so and have to recover low, you'll have to avoid bowling balls, trees, nairs and dairs. This can be really hard and a bowling ball offstage can literally kill you at 40/50%. Another advice if you are thrown offstage. I recommend throwing all your pikmin away in order to be faster when recovering. Then recover high(this allows you to avoid bowling balls and trees) and at best recover really high. Villager isn't that fast in the air, so he won't have an easy time catching you. Also his running speed isn't that great. Therefore recovering high and flying across the stage is a pretty good option in the match-up.

Also pocketing a pikmin isn't that great for Villager after all. It doesn't do much damage and it hasn't have that much range to be an issue. You can easily stay out of the range he throws a pikmin.

Near the ledge, yellow dsmash is godlike if Villager has to recover with his upb to grab the ledge. The hitbox is extended by the balloons of Villager's upb.

In my opinion, this is one of the really good match-ups of Olimar. Use your tools, keep your distance and avoid recovering low vs Villager and you will be fine. Don't try to punish an fsmash of Villager, because it has some startup lag, but almost no ending lag. Same goes for stuff like his dtilt(which has more range than you would think), his side tilt(when he spaces it correctly) and even his up-tilt hasn't much cooldown. There aren't really moves where you should try to punish the cooldown. Better choose options from the distance instead of approaching him. If you want to sometimes go in, then use your purple to get a potential grab out of it.

I'll write stuff on the current match-ups later.
 

Blue Banana

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Kon's detailed argument basically reinforces Sky Pirate's and StripedNinja's opinions as well as a couple of others on the Oli Skype group, so I'm changing the overall rating to a definite heavy advantage. (which is good because I want to use this color anyway)

I'm considering on starting a new discussion a little earlier--say on Friday instead of Saturday--since it seems hard to describe how Olimar dittos go and because I have a good idea on which set of undiscussed characters I want to start with first. Regardless of whether or not I do it, opinions on the ditto matchup are still welcome throughout this week.
 

Blue Banana

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I'm going to move on to the next set of characters. Opinions on the ditto are still welcome.

------------------------

Discussion 13 - Tools, Contraptions, and Everything Between

:4bowserjr:(:4larry::4roy::4wendy::4iggy::4morton::4lemmy::4ludwig:):4tlink:

Bowser Jr. Frame Data
Toon Link Frame Data

I have like 3 dedicated toon links in the houston area (2 former PR with tl with pre pre patch diddy), and they vary from playing really aggressive, to trying to outcamp me. It sounds like you deal with the latter and in that sense its easier to deal with rather than aggressive use of boomerang and bomb placement into aerials, nair and zair for shield pressure etc etc. Regardless what I focus at kill percent is having a purple/red/blue lineup. You have side B that beats all his projectiles, purple. The blue for the run past him pivot grab. And the red for well the smash attack.

Mixing up the usage of fsmash and not being afraid to be aggressive as well as sprinkling in some down smash really helps.

If it wasnt already obvious , once you can perfect power shielding this matchup becomes so much less stressful and throwing pikmin from side b/smash attack just stuff his projectiles altogether. Im quite sure he doesnt have confirmed followups from his dthrow last time i checked so shielding is good vs him for quite a long time. Personally a nice little mental note I have is that his kill throw only kills early if its at the edge, so I try to maintain center stage especially when trying to survive the kill throw since I personally as olimar shield alot in this matchup regardless. (No rage at center stage his back throw kills at 180%) (His grabby is pretty ****ty regardless lol)


Besides having the line up purple/red/blue at kill percents, I honestly believe overall the best lineup would be 2 purples and something else, since they beat out and contiue past his projectiles. The only way he can really approach at this point is bombs so you can use the purples to force him to make mistakes etc. I also like to keep the white pikmin for the longer range pivot grab to mixup besides just throwing it out.

When you have pikmin latched onto toon link idk exactly how it works but apparently when he throws the bomb instead of being thrown out , it just hits the pikmin. Either someone can clarify that or Id have to look more into it. Also watching how they react to the latched pikmin and finding openings as they try to kill them is good but im sure u already knew that part
The pikmin would have to be attached to TL in a position that the bomb instantly explodes because it hits the pikmin when thrown. It's probably the same reason why a red absorbs the fireball when attached to Mario's side or why a yellow eats a Thunder Jolt when it's on Pikachu's face.

No quotes for Bowser Jr.

Discussion will be open until Friday, January 22.

(no music)
 
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divade

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I want to say I at least tried to help the matchup boards (despite not facing this matchup often) soo...
Koopa's main approach at start is mech and kart dash, mixing up who is going first, I don't think non-purple-pikmin throws would knock us out so you'll have to use aerials, sheild or move around.
on this note i think it would be important for you to hold a purple for restricting our kart tricks.

Most of your aerials have a better chance of hitting our top half, so good for you.
Your smashes out reach our moves, but I think koopas would have that point in an aerial fight.
Koopas are great at gimping harmless upspecials so i think we have you there.
idk your power and kill percent so i think we have you on mobility but maybe not stage control?
Hope this all helps set an opinon.

FTR, pikmin are weirdly tough to hit off of the bowjr face. I think we can kartdash to hurt other ones though.
 

Moobussir

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I actually play both Toon Link and Ludwig (Toon Link dedicated, but I've used Ludwig to great success at my locals as well). Olimar I'd say is a hard matchup for all of us, and I'll explain one at a time. (I'll call him Jr. from now on though).
I should also mention I haven't fought a strong Olimar in a long time, so perhaps not everything is 100% correct. That being said, I'm up to face you guys if we want to each learn more about the respective matchups. PM me for that.

Toon Link vs Olimar, Pikmin have higher priority then all our projectiles, and bombs tie with them, though non-Red Pikmin will take damage, and if Olimar is close by, he'll be hurt by them too. Our setups require boomerang and bomb to connect, but his size, disjointed hitboxes and simple presence of Pikmin make it hard to connect consistently. Olimar can play the camp game vs Toon Link pretty well since we have a weak approach, and Toon Link will need to be tricky to get in himself, but once he's in, he can do a lot of damage pretty safely thanks to projectile combo's. Combo's in general are pretty even with both characters; throw combo's will work best with you, while projectile and physical combo's work well with us. We're both on the lighter side so we can only combo for so long on each other, though KO's will come soon potentially (Your light weight might work in our favour since some of our throw combo's work best on those on the lighter side). Toon Link has more KO moves than Olimar, though a Purple Pikmin can be intimidating to face, since it can hit fast and hard. Our Back-throw is more potent then your Blue Up-throw I think, but either will work well. Both characters have weak edgeguarding vs each other, with Toon Link having only projectiles to disturb predictable paths, and Olimar needing precision to strike Toon Link's very quick tether recovery. With all that said, it's a hard matchup for both, but I'd say it's pretty even for that reason. Our ranged fighting styles are so different, so it'll come down to who can space and take advantage of the others openings more.

Bowser Jr. vs Olimar, both characters will fight ranged in the neutral, but Jr. can always charge in with Side-B to pretty good success if he times it right. Jr. has his Mechakoopa to threaten Olimar from afar, both by having it just walk, and picking up to throw if need be. Every one of Jr.'s attacks is disjointed enough to prevent ranged Pikmin from latching on to him, though once they're on, we can't get them off for that reason. Be wary of his large F-air and quick B-air, both very strong, with the former threatening your space and the latter KOing quite well. Side-B can take advantage of any openings and can lead to a lot of damaging followup's, including all aerials for great damage and KO potential, or the devastating Up-B hammer finish for early KO's. Jr. can stay off stage for a long time thanks to his Side-B giving a 3rd jump, and Up-B travelling very far vertically (Not to mention the Clown Kart's gimping on Up-B), so Olimar's exploitable recovery is very dangerous for him. KOing as Olimar is hard since Jr. is quite heavy, so it'll certainly take a while to build up the required damage, but a Blue Up-throw will eventually get us, probably the best choice to kill tbh. This matchup seems more in favour to Jr. for those reasons, not an easy match for Olimar at all. Can't put a number to it though, since I haven't made one before. Potentially 65-35? Can't be sure.

Anyways let me know if you wanna fight, I'm usually busy but up to fight when I'm free.
 

Halfy

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For Toon Link vs Olimar, Toon Link only has to stand still the entire match lol
jk

Okay, I don't see Olimar mains too often and I don't usually post in character boards except Tink's, but I can make an exception on the basis that I am also trying to learn Olimar, and I have plenty of Toon Link mains I know. This is one of those rare scenarios where I know the matchup against my main better from the other point of view.

Olimar has very easy combos against Tink at early percents, but has a bit of a harder time racking up damage due to Tink being able to kill pikmin on him with a single quick nair. Olimar does better trying to be the aggressor in this matchup with his decent combos and good range on attacks, along with better frame data. Red, Blue, and Yellow pikmin are extremely useful in this matchup, whereas White and Purple aren't as good, with White being almost exclusively to either poke with long ranged Fsmashes or grab onto Tink and deal as much percent as possible before Tink kills it with a nair. Side B is only useful with Purples in this matchup. You will need to watch out for c4 (bombs resting on the ground) because by the time the pikmin brings it over to you (which they tend to do after an Fsmash), the bomb will be very close to the end of its timer. Get as close to Tink as you can to apply pressure with autocancelled aerials and grabs. The main things you will need to watch out for in this matchup are arrows, c4 bombs, nair, upsmash, zair, bair, and fair, since they can all kill you with rage, or can apply safe pressure to you to allow Tink to approach for a kill.
 

StripedNinja

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For Toon Link vs Olimar, Toon Link only has to stand still the entire match lol
jk

Okay, I don't see Olimar mains too often and I don't usually post in character boards except Tink's, but I can make an exception on the basis that I am also trying to learn Olimar, and I have plenty of Toon Link mains I know. This is one of those rare scenarios where I know the matchup against my main better from the other point of view.

Olimar has very easy combos against Tink at early percents, but has a bit of a harder time racking up damage due to Tink being able to kill pikmin on him with a single quick nair. Olimar does better trying to be the aggressor in this matchup with his decent combos and good range on attacks, along with better frame data. Red, Blue, and Yellow pikmin are extremely useful in this matchup, whereas White and Purple aren't as good, with White being almost exclusively to either poke with long ranged Fsmashes or grab onto Tink and deal as much percent as possible before Tink kills it with a nair. Side B is only useful with Purples in this matchup. You will need to watch out for c4 (bombs resting on the ground) because by the time the pikmin brings it over to you (which they tend to do after an Fsmash), the bomb will be very close to the end of its timer. Get as close to Tink as you can to apply pressure with autocancelled aerials and grabs. The main things you will need to watch out for in this matchup are arrows, c4 bombs, nair, upsmash, zair, bair, and fair, since they can all kill you with rage, or can apply safe pressure to you to allow Tink to approach for a kill.
Solid analysis and I know you aren't an Oli player so no big but I just wanted to clear up, whites have standard fsmash range but longer grab range.
 

Halfy

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Solid analysis and I know you aren't an Oli player so no big but I just wanted to clear up, whites have standard fsmash range but longer grab range.
My bad. What I was referring to is that I use whites for poking in this matchup, and I thought they had longer range on smashes.
 

Myran

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Yeah only yellows have larger hitboxes on smashes/aerials. 1.25x larger to be exact, other than that all colors are the same aside from purples.
 

divade

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Yeah only yellows have larger hitboxes on smashes/aerials. 1.25x larger to be exact, other than that all colors are the same aside from purples.
Good to know, also blues have better throws? Interesting.
 

Blue Banana

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Reminder that we will move on to the next set of matchups on Saturday. A couple more opinions on the Bowser Jr. matchup would be helpful, in particular.
 

Blue Banana

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Discussion for the Toon Link and Bowser Jr. matchups is now closed. Thanks for the responses.

:4tlink: is an even matchup.
:4bowserjr: is tentatively a disadvantageous matchup.

------------------------

Discussion 14 - Brawlers II

:4lucas::4charizard:

Lucas Frame Data
Charizard Frame Data

Hey guys, just got into Olimar about a week ago and I noticed something that I thought was interesting in the :4charizard: matchup. If Charizard has a pikmin attached to him while he uses Flare Blitz, the move stops immediately and kills the pikmin. However, since red pikmin don't take fire damage, red pikmin completely nullify charizards scariest kill move.

Normally I like to save the red pikmin for kill moves, but in this matchup I found it extremely useful to use them for pikmin toss.
Olimar has a slightly good matchup against Charizard. If you keep ONE Pikmin on him most of the game (preferably red) his side-b, the most powerful move of his, will fail every single time hilariously. I do have to admit, it seems rather stressing.

No old quotes for Lucas.

Discussion will be closed on Friday, January 29.
 

arbustopachon

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I don't know much about olimar bacause olimar vs zard is pretty rare.
Charizard has better range and movility plus a bast majority of his moves are heavily disjointed.
As a rule of thumb, Zard has a pretty good ground game but a mediocre aerial game.
Look out for jabs, jab2 sets up zards grab, usmash and upb.
Zards d-throw can combo into fair, nair, and uair depending or your di. His b-throw can combo into fair if you di towards him so try to di away.
u-throw kills early, you want to di it away and down.
f-tilt kills early at the edge when sweetspotted look out for that. Also jab 3 can ko surprisingly early too.
Zard has trouble at landing, all his aerials have huge endlag. He can use nair, dair, flamethrower, fly, his aerial jumps and rocksmash to try to mix you up. Wabeounced flamethrowers and rocksmash are particulary effective at mixing people up.
try to always have at least one red pikmin. It neutralizes his side b once making him easier to gimp.
flamethrower and d-tilt are great pokes look out for them. zard can autocancel out of a sh fair and nair. fair is a pretty decent poking tool too.
respect his bair, its basically and aerial forward smash. plus if you airdodge it you can get frametrapped into a dair.
remember that his u-tilt, u-smash and u-air are disjointed and kill early, respect them.
Zard can do sh airdodges and attack the instant he lands so they are not easy to punish. his rolls and spotdodges are very unsafe so take advantadge of that.
Basically play safe, respect his disjoints and his shield (zard has a decent Oos game) and youll be fine.
Also Zard dies earlier to vertical kill options than to horizontal kill options.
 

charizardbro

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Olimar can gimp Charizard extremely well if you can force Zard to recover low with Flare Blitz early in the stock. Toss a pickman and he's probably dead if you hit him early enough in the move. Competent Zards won't be using the move at all in neutral so that's really not as big of an advantage for Olimar as it would seem (doubly so when you consider than Olimar struggles to force a low FB recovery).

Never recover low against Zard if you can help it. Fsmash can get the 2 frame punish and Olimar is super light so that will be the stock if Zard pulls it off. It's easier to do when Olimar recovers low more horizontally. With that in mind, recovering low in a more vertical fashion is not much better if your stage teching is shaky. Mixing up your recovery against Zard is crucial. And he can force plenty of low recoveries at about mid percent so watch out.

Neutral is something that I haven't personally played enough of to give exact information about but it should be a little closer to the kind of thing you see as Olimar when you play against rush down characters. Your opponent wants to close the distance as soon as possible and you want to zone with pickman and grab when the opportunity presents itself. Zard is a little different in that he can mix up with flamethrower if you are staying grounded often and he doesn't actually want to be as close to you as other rush down characters do. Landing solid hits to get Zard away when he does get in is important as it is against any rush down character, but bear in mind that Zard is really rangy compared to other rush downs so he can actually space outside of those solid hits to a great degree.

Aside from that, don't DI Zard's throws poorly and you will be fine. You can mix up DI on dthrow to see if Zard misses a followup but DI away at higher percents. DI uthrow away always.
 

that_rock

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:4lucas:vs :4olimar:
As a Lucas Main, this matchup is the pits. Here's why-

Olimar can spam Pikmin Toss, and Lucas has trouble getting in. Lucas's zair clashes with most pikmin, and his pk fire hits pikmin. With that said, it doesn't touch Olimar, so he can continue to abuse that move.

However, if Lucas can get into Olimar, it starts looking better for him. Olimar is pretty light, so down-throw upair is very good against him, as well as upthrow if he gets too high for damage.

Lucas definitely has a better time recovering against Olimar than most other characters with his two options, tether and pkt2. Olimar's, on the other hand, if done haphazardly, can lead to a Dsmash through the stage (depending on stage of course) or a bair if he doesn't recovery low.

But as neutral is probably the most important part of the game, and it clearly being in Olimar's favor, I give it a -2 for Lucas, because it's definitely winnable...just not easy to do.
Excuse me if I missed anything, I don't see this matchup often.
If you want video evidence, here's Pink Fresh getting stuffed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9F3dROpX18
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whKyccpiB44 <- before 1.1.3
 

divade

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:4lucas:vs :4olimar:
As a Lucas Main, this matchup is the pits. Here's why-

Olimar can spam Pikmin Toss, and Lucas has trouble getting in. Lucas's zair clashes with most pikmin, and his pk fire hits pikmin. With that said, it doesn't touch Olimar, so he can continue to abuse that move.

However, if Lucas can get into Olimar, it starts looking better for him. Olimar is pretty light, so down-throw upair is very good against him, as well as upthrow if he gets too high for damage.

Lucas definitely has a better time recovering against Olimar than most other characters with his two options, tether and pkt2. Olimar's, on the other hand, if done haphazardly, can lead to a Dsmash through the stage (depending on stage of course) or a bair if he doesn't recovery low.

But as neutral is probably the most important part of the game, and it clearly being in Olimar's favor, I give it a -2 for Lucas, because it's definitely winnable...just not easy to do.
Excuse me if I missed anything, I don't see this matchup often.
If you want video evidence, here's Pink Fresh getting stuffed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9F3dROpX18
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whKyccpiB44 <- before 1.1.3
didn't know it was that tough. *whistle*
btw I'm jealous at how active your thread is vs. BowJr's.
 

Zard lover Doom Desire

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Well good to know I came here in time. I admittedly have little experience in this matchup, but I know the characters fairly well. Olimar's jab is faster by a frame but lacks range and pretty much use for anything except locking and maybe interruption, Charizard's, however, has much more range, has better knockback and is a viable punish in general. While Olimar ends up with a faster jab, Charizard's is better overall, meaning jabbing is not the way to go close up, instead, hold shield or fall back and grab punish. Speaking of punishing, Charizard is extremely punishable, and if he misses an attack, you get some damage on him, probably a smash attack, and many of Charizard's moves are too slow to punish Olimar, except his jab and his grab, though be careful not to get grabbed at above 100% damage or you're going to probably die to an up throw. Pikmin throw, while still good, won't be as useful here due to Charizard being a heavy, the damage will serve more to aid him than harm him, so don't spam the move as much, try for more Purple Pikmin than anything else, as they have better knockback and don't latch to targets (assuming you don't have that custom that makes them all basically purples) Charizard will try to keep you at a set distance with Flamethrower and autocancelled aerials, but they're all punishable if you're close enough and shielding. Oh and be careful while recovering, while Olimar's meteor smash is weak and difficult to land, Charizard's is devastating and relatively easy to land, so avoid using your up special unless you have no Pikmin or you can read Charizard's edgeguard attempt. Flare Blitz isn't usually much of a threat (you can even get a lock off of it if it hits your shield!) but it will almost certainly KO you if the Charizard isn't randomly throwing it out...which, admittedly...we tend to do...Lastly, don't sleep on Tail Whip or Air Slash (that's what I've decided to nickname his strong side and strong up attacks respectively) they're quick and thus seemingly weak with trash hitbox placement, but if the former is sweetspotted or you're at above up throw kill percent for the latter, you will die, absurdly early in the case of the former (I've killed a Sheik at only a little above 60% at the ledge before, and while the DI was probably bad, that's still early, it wasn't even recovery failure she died from, straight knockback!) Oh and if you're feeling disrespectful, use Rocket Fist to kill if he's at like 150%
Well that's all I can contribute. Probably a slight Olimar favor, but I've never fought a good Olimar, might be even though. Oh one more thing, to whoever said FB is our strongest move, it's actually our side smash, by a small margin, though we'll be landing Flare Blitz more often, so I guess it's more like our best kill move besides up throw. Unless you factor in custom moves, we'll be using Dragon Rush (especially against someone who can wall out FB) then side smash is way stronger. Now, how do I get better at playing as Olimar?
 
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Hath

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:4lucas:vs :4olimar: (IMO, Even)

I don't have too much to say due to my own lack of knowledge on the matchup. Lucas main here. I can say that it feels even, but I don't know. Since Pikmin clash with PK Fire, it's really obnoxious to try and space. Also, Olimar's grab range isn't that bad. Purple Pikmin stuff our aerial approaches, such as Nair, Fair, and Zair, but you need to wait for them to come back. A nice order to have is a mix of Purples, blues, and maybe some reds for damage. Yellow goes far and all, but it isn't really much when you might accidently throw it over a PK Fire and get hit.

Dude up there was right, you can totally spam Pikmin at us and we can't do ****. It's super obnoxious. Our grab range might be greats, but if we can't get near you in the first place, then you could easily get us with your own grab.

P.S. I'm also kinda bias because I just lost a tournament recently to an Olimar player, so... my salt is leaking a little bit.
 

Zard lover Doom Desire

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:4lucas:vs :4olimar: (IMO, Even)

I don't have too much to say due to my own lack of knowledge on the matchup. Lucas main here. I can say that it feels even, but I don't know. Since Pikmin clash with PK Fire, it's really obnoxious to try and space. Also, Olimar's grab range isn't that bad. Purple Pikmin stuff our aerial approaches, such as Nair, Fair, and Zair, but you need to wait for them to come back. A nice order to have is a mix of Purples, blues, and maybe some reds for damage. Yellow goes far and all, but it isn't really much when you might accidently throw it over a PK Fire and get hit.

Dude up there was right, you can totally spam Pikmin at us and we can't do ****. It's super obnoxious. Our grab range might be greats, but if we can't get near you in the first place, then you could easily get us with your own grab.

P.S. I'm also kinda bias because I just lost a tournament recently to an Olimar player, so... my salt is leaking a little bit.
Lucky for you, Olimar is pretty unpopular. I guess it's sort of unlucky too.
 

Sky Pirate

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Lucas is really rough once he gets in, though. So much combo damage and juggling, and he can kill so early, even from grabs. ><
It also feels like you really have to respect him. His jab and Dtilt come out quicker than anything we have, so it can be really tough to punish him.
 

Zard lover Doom Desire

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Lucas is really rough once he gets in, though. So much combo damage and juggling, and he can kill so early, even from grabs. ><
It also feels like you really have to respect him. His jab and Dtilt come out quicker than anything we have, so it can be really tough to punish him.
His side smash makes me cry, sometimes I cut myself at night with a Bulborb tooth...
 

Blue Banana

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Discussion for the Lucas and Charizard matchups is now closed. Thanks for the responses.

:4lucas: is an even/slightly advantageous matchup.
:4charizard: is a slightly advantageous matchup.

Note that I factored in opinions from the Olimar skype group.

------------------------

Discussion 15 51 - The Showdown

:4bowser::4mewtwo::4ganondorf:

Bowser Frame Data
Mewtwo Frame Data
Ganondorf Frame Data

No detailed quotes for any of them.

Discussion will be closed on Friday, February 5.
 

Theosmeo

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Very few Ganons I know have expirience in this MU(including me) however there are some tricks Ganon has that you should know.

Olimar is the most rewarding character to get a flame choke on, as we can get jab, ftilt, dtilt, and DSMASH on him(poor guy) so learn how to tech it!

Olimar is quite light so the moves ganon throws in neutral often can kill one who isn't careful. If Ganon gets stuck by any pikmin he can get it off with Uair and Nair easily, but he can also stall in the air using hitlag with the strongest aerial hitbox in the game with his stomp so be careful.

I'll probably think of other things but beware of Ganons big spooky hitboxes and don't be obvious or reads will destroy you. Otherwise it's probably an even MU.
 

StripedNinja

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I definitely wouldn't call ganon even. He can kill early but like his poor neutral mixed with nearly the worst recovery in the game means Oli wins this one I think. Fsmash and purples stuff out side B pretty easily. I would put it 70-30 Olis favor
 
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Theosmeo

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I definitely wouldn't call ganon even. He can kill early but like his poor neutral mixed with nearly the worst recovery in the game means Oli wins this one I think. Fsmash and purples stuff out side B pretty easily. I would put it 70-30 Olis favor
Well we're not dumb enough to just approach with flame choke. Also all of Ganons aerials out-space Olimars so Neutral really isn't that one sided. considering being hit by 80% of your pikmin don't really halt approach and a purple will take a while to come back. And our recovery isn't much worse than yours for this MU as Olimar is so slow when flying that he can be easily offstaged by any of Ganons aerials. I could see you arguing it's your advantage, but 70-30 is extreme.
 

StripedNinja

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Well we're not dumb enough to just approach with flame choke. Also all of Ganons aerials out-space Olimars so Neutral really isn't that one sided. considering being hit by 80% of your pikmin don't really halt approach and a purple will take a while to come back. And our recovery isn't much worse than yours for this MU as Olimar is so slow when flying that he can be easily offstaged by any of Ganons aerials. I could see you arguing it's your advantage, but 70-30 is extreme.
There's no reason Olimar would intentionally challenge you in the air, his strength is in his ground game which from my experience Ganon doesn't have a strong answer to. If you throw a purple pikmin and then fsmash the purple pikmin will be back in time to use it again, which is generally the basic walling out strategy with Oli, and a good Oli if he needs to can usually get 2 purples out, though in this matchup I don't think we would need to. Our recovery is much much better than yours, its vulnerable but the distance it travels gives us a lot of options as far as mixing it up, and if we see you trying to go offstage we can fade back pretty much as far as we want until we're safe where you pretty much have to go right for the ledge. And if you get hit with anything out of your jump you're dead, if you hit us and it doesn't kill during the hitstun we'll still be fine.
 

Zard lover Doom Desire

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Ahhh, what a good time for me to join the thread. I happen to play all three of them. I believe Mewtwo may have a slight advantage due to his reflector being crippling when timed right (not that it isn't still the worst reflector in the game) Mewtwo additionally has better frame data than the others, not that it's spectacular or anything, but his tail attacks in particular keep Olimar and his overall pitiful range at bay. He's hard to edgeguard too, and I don't know about the rest of you, but that's how I earn most of my KOs as Olimar, but if you manage to hit him out of his jump, it will result in almost certain death if he's past 90% or so. Mewtwo, on the other hand, has very little trouble with edguarding, with a devastatingly powerful forward air that's almost half as strong as Knee Smash, large-ish hitboxes on his up and back airs, a powerful meteor smash only rivaled by heavyweights, even being stronger than CF's, and a neutral air that can drag you into the abyss. Against a good Mewtwo, you'll usually have to sacrifice a few brave souls so you don't lose a stock, to speed up the Winged Pikmin. Mewtwo's smash attacks are all stronger than Olimar's, with the exception of Purple Pikmin smash attacks, and even those can be used against you, but Mewtwo still has very bad smash attacks, his up smash has pitiful hitbox placement that can't connect with short fighters, helpful for Olimar, and his other two smash attacks have 21 frames of start lag, I believe, very slow. Disable is of little concern due to having very poor hitbox placement, but if you get hit by it past 70%, you will die, so be on the lookout. Very slight advantage for M2, far from unwinnable.
 

StripedNinja

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Ahhh, what a good time for me to join the thread. I happen to play all three of them. I believe Mewtwo may have a slight advantage due to his reflector being crippling when timed right (not that it isn't still the worst reflector in the game) Mewtwo additionally has better frame data than the others, not that it's spectacular or anything, but his tail attacks in particular keep Olimar and his overall pitiful range at bay. He's hard to edgeguard too, and I don't know about the rest of you, but that's how I earn most of my KOs as Olimar, but if you manage to hit him out of his jump, it will result in almost certain death if he's past 90% or so. Mewtwo, on the other hand, has very little trouble with edguarding, with a devastatingly powerful forward air that's almost half as strong as Knee Smash, large-ish hitboxes on his up and back airs, a powerful meteor smash only rivaled by heavyweights, even being stronger than CF's, and a neutral air that can drag you into the abyss. Against a good Mewtwo, you'll usually have to sacrifice a few brave souls so you don't lose a stock, to speed up the Winged Pikmin. Mewtwo's smash attacks are all stronger than Olimar's, with the exception of Purple Pikmin smash attacks, and even those can be used against you, but Mewtwo still has very bad smash attacks, his up smash has pitiful hitbox placement that can't connect with short fighters, helpful for Olimar, and his other two smash attacks have 21 frames of start lag, I believe, very slow. Disable is of little concern due to having very poor hitbox placement, but if you get hit by it past 70%, you will die, so be on the lookout. Very slight advantage for M2, far from unwinnable.
I agree with most of what you said except about Olis range? Fsmash mixed with grab and pivot grab mixed with purp side B gives Olimar a very solid ranged game. His ariels dont go reacg furthest but Olimar generally won't put himself in the air voluntarily, and even then they still don't have like bad range.
 

Zard lover Doom Desire

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For Bowser, you're going to have to fear him most of the time. He's strong. Really strong, and he's the heaviest fighter in the game. If you're going to beat Bowser, you're going to have to play like you're fighting the Emperor Bulblax, but not the one from the first Pikmin because he's harder than killing Bowser, so it's more like the ones from Pikmin 2 but without using Purple Pikmin. Anyway, Bowser his capable of autocancelling his horizontal aerials, respect those, but remember that they aren't safe on shield unless spaced properly, that's your turn to attack, which will of course be a grab and down throw, followed by a pair of jabs into another grab-down throw, followed by a forward air or two, if his damage is low enough. Despite Bowser's strengths, I would have called this an advantage for the captain of not for one thing. Patch 1.1.3, the patch that made Bowser deadlier than the sand bird from Super Mario Sunshine, he now has a confirmed kill from an up throw to up air, on any character, on any stage, all you can do is avoid getting grabbed. That's what this matchup is going to be mostly, grab punishes and throw combos. Sadly, Olimar lacks a kill confirm, so Bowser is relatively safe until above 150 when blue up throw starts killing, or a blue back throw at the edge at around 120. Custom moves provide an additional boon for the Koopa King, granting him Dash Slash, the only Bowser custom I ever see get any use, and for good reason, it's like autocancelling his forward air but better in almost every way, you can retreat, advance, combo, and even setup kills with this thing, it's a seriously powerful move, well, seriously useful, it's not all that strong. Finally, Whirling Fortress out of shield is an option you'll see a lot, if you're not suffering any endlag, hold your shield, this move has a ton of endlag, and all too often do my opponents unshield, preventing an easy punish. Oh and try not to get Bomb Trumped, it can lead to a nasty back air. Pretty even matchup I'd say, Bowser has a lot of tools, but Olimar's frame data keeps him in the fight. Oh no...I double posted, mods, please don't waste time punishing something so not worth punishing. I assume you guys will though, power tends to go to one's head...
 

Zard lover Doom Desire

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I agree with most of what you said except about Olis range? Fsmash mixed with grab and pivot grab mixed with purp side B gives Olimar a very solid ranged game. His ariels dont go reacg furthest but Olimar generally won't put himself in the air voluntarily, and even then they still don't have like bad range.
Yeah, I was sort of waiting for someone to correct me on that, what I meant was his aerials have bad range, at least in my experience, though I'm used to fighting sword wielders so it might just be me, his smashes are very good in range, unless you're using purples.
 
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Theosmeo

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There's no reason Olimar would intentionally challenge you in the air, his strength is in his ground game which from my experience Ganon doesn't have a strong answer to. If you throw a purple pikmin and then fsmash the purple pikmin will be back in time to use it again, which is generally the basic walling out strategy with Oli, and a good Oli if he needs to can usually get 2 purples out, though in this matchup I don't think we would need to. Our recovery is much much better than yours, its vulnerable but the distance it travels gives us a lot of options as far as mixing it up, and if we see you trying to go offstage we can fade back pretty much as far as we want until we're safe where you pretty much have to go right for the ledge. And if you get hit with anything out of your jump you're dead, if you hit us and it doesn't kill during the hitstun we'll still be fine.
I think you'd be surprised how mobile Ganon is, and our Dash Attack will kill thrown purple pikmin. It might be your advantage but you need to play REALLY careful or we can end a stock in two mistakes. If you say you have a 70-30 advantage against Ganon wouldn't that make ZSS also a 70-30 advantage because she kills off mistakes too? The only proper edgeguarding you have against us is throwing a purple into the abyss, and our recovery isn't bad, it's just a our air speed.
 

Zard lover Doom Desire

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Well I've broken the rules already, time to triple post, shoutouts to StripedNinja for preventing my first double post...which I subsequently made pointless anyway. Ganondorf, the king of evil, and one of the least threatening fighters in the game. Wait, that doesn't sound right...oh well, he's actually sort of good-ish. I'd say this matchup is a slight or medium advantage for Olimar, it's definitely not unwinnable for the fatty. First off, his strong side attack is just better than Olimar's in every way, except maybe endlag, but it matters little when it has less startup, more power, and more range, it's very minor, but I thought I would point out how Olimar needs a power buff on that move. Olimar's jab is just better than the Dorf's, it's a pretty pathetic jab, frame 8, tons of endlag, underwhelming at best kill power, low damage and no combo potential, and it's one of his fastest moves on the ground, you won't see this used much. Purples can wall him a little bit, but not forever, Ganondorf has ways of breaking walls, and it's called keep doing something until it works, Dorf players are persistent, sometimes I like to keep spamming Wizard's Foot until I hit them, though I'll admit it's not the best tactic in the world. In all seriousness, Wizard's Foot can break zones if timed just right, though he could also jump over you and come in with a down air, due to the transcendent priority, he'll usually trade with Olimar trying to up smash him, so Olimar's poor priority doesn't really come into play with that move. Speaking of down air, it's the strongest one in the game, and it's not exactly as hard to sweetspotted as Marth's, Falco's or Olimar's (although ROB's down air and ZSS's Flip Jump are still easier). Having the Triforce of Power blesses the Dorf with being the overall stronger character in the game, forward air is almost as strong as CF's, neutral air is the strongest in the game I think although it still only kills at around 100, his back air is fast and strong, sour spotted Wizard's Foot in the air kills super early, easily below 100, and the sweet spot is an even stronger meteor smash than his down air, being near impossible to survive, much less recover, up air is fast, has good range, is very strong, and the sourspot can put you into a gimped position, his strong down attack can kill confirm against many characters (Olimar included) out of an unteched Flame Choke, which in itself is the only move that can chain grab, if he reads your getup. I could go on for a while about how strong this guy is, but it's pretty obvious by now to anyone who didn't already know. So what are his downsides? I've made him seem almost OP! Do you really want to know? His frame data is on the whole pretty bad, with his up smash being the only attack of his that's hard to punish, and even that has high startup lag. Volcano Kick and Warlock Punch, while being easily the coolest moves in the game, are obscenely laggy, both having over a full second of startup, though they are tough on shields, like all of his attacks, VK breaking them instantly. Ganondorf has the third worst recovery, with LM at second, and Dr. Mario at the worst (yeah I said it). Having a recovery comparable to those two falling anvils of air fighters is pretty bad, at least they have good frame data! However, Dark Dive is now kinda good because it can stage spike I guess, but it's still not good at all so I lied. Oh and be careful offstage, sometimes Ganondorf knows better than to recover, with his hilarious but obnoxious Ganoncides, which always kills you first. There is one thing that might make this matchup even. Custom moves, with them, Ganondorf gains an equally terrible at recovery but devastating new up special in Dark Fists, a way to survive horizontal knockback in Wizard's Dropkick, and a semi-usable though still laggy standard special, Warlock Blade. Oh and I guess he has other customs that people "use" sometimes. Maybe that doesn't make that matchup even, but he's no longer at risk of being carried offstage by Olimar's forward airs in a guaranteed death. Sadly, though, pretty much everyone is an idiot and hates custom moves for no reason at all other than to keep the meta boring, and customs are almost always banned.
 

Zard lover Doom Desire

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I think you'd be surprised how mobile Ganon is, and our Dash Attack will kill thrown purple pikmin. It might be your advantage but you need to play REALLY careful or we can end a stock in two mistakes. If you say you have a 70-30 advantage against Ganon wouldn't that make ZSS also a 70-30 advantage because she kills off mistakes too? The only proper edgeguarding you have against us is throwing a purple into the abyss, and our recovery isn't bad, it's just a our air speed.
And our falling speed, I think Ganondorf would be more interesting and better as a floaty character, since he floats in LoZ games, maybe lower his gravity too, he'd have higher jumps and more vertical resistance (yes, to those who don't know, low gravity makes you less susceptible to vertical KOs, though so does high falling speed)
 
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