Piklopedia - The Olimar Matchup Thread (1st ed. complete, open discussion)

[kew]

vs Zelda:
She really can't approach, so it's a wait and bait game for her. Of course respect Nayru's, besides f smash and pikmin throw it can also reflect up smash if she is spaced correctly (not directly above Oli). I like to condition Oli with jump off the ledge, then fast fall Nayru's in case they up or f smash. Phantom Knight is a good tool for Zelda to wall out pikmin, but Oli can still punish the charging and cooldown animations with pikmin throw. Also Nayru's and nair are pretty much the only moves that Zelda can use to get pikmin off her easily, so capitalize on the cooldown of those (esp. Nayru's). Zelda definitely wins in terms of kill power though.

Olimar can't combo Zelda too well after low percents, but the same is probably applicable vice versa. Really gotta be patient and pick your moves. If Zelda tries to challenge you in the air, she can outrange with fair and bair but ofc sweetspot is pretty small and sourspot is super punishable, so that's an option.

Overall a better matchup for Olimar IME as a Zelda main and learning Olimar. ~60-40

 

[StripedNinja]

vs Zelda:
She really can't approach, so it's a wait and bait game for her. Of course respect Nayru's, besides f smash and pikmin throw it can also reflect up smash if she is spaced correctly (not directly above Oli). I like to condition Oli with jump off the ledge, then fast fall Nayru's in case they up or f smash. Phantom Knight is a good tool for Zelda to wall out pikmin, but Oli can still punish the charging and cooldown animations with pikmin throw. Also Nayru's and nair are pretty much the only moves that Zelda can use to get pikmin off her easily, so capitalize on the cooldown of those (esp. Nayru's). Zelda definitely wins in terms of kill power though.

Olimar can't combo Zelda too well after low percents, but the same is probably applicable vice versa. Really gotta be patient and pick your moves. If Zelda tries to challenge you in the air, she can outrange with fair and bair but ofc sweetspot is pretty small and sourspot is super punishable, so that's an option.

Overall a better matchup for Olimar IME as a Zelda main and learning Olimar. ~60-40

Honestly I don't know if Zelda wins in terms of kill power even. Purples are super strong. I would put it 70-30 against. Overall Zelda just doesn't have the tools to keep up imo.

 

[-The Gucci Fairy-]

vs Zelda:
She really can't approach, so it's a wait and bait game for her. Of course respect Nayru's, besides f smash and pikmin throw it can also reflect up smash if she is spaced correctly (not directly above Oli). I like to condition Oli with jump off the ledge, then fast fall Nayru's in case they up or f smash. Phantom Knight is a good tool for Zelda to wall out pikmin, but Oli can still punish the charging and cooldown animations with pikmin throw. Also Nayru's and nair are pretty much the only moves that Zelda can use to get pikmin off her easily, so capitalize on the cooldown of those (esp. Nayru's). Zelda definitely wins in terms of kill power though.

Olimar can't combo Zelda too well after low percents, but the same is probably applicable vice versa. Really gotta be patient and pick your moves. If Zelda tries to challenge you in the air, she can outrange with fair and bair but ofc sweetspot is pretty small and sourspot is super punishable, so that's an option.

Overall a better matchup for Olimar IME as a Zelda main and learning Olimar. ~60-40

Lol im assuming u dont play olimar that much when u say zelda wins in terms of kill power...Olimar racks up dmg really fast and kills with an upthrow,bair,upair (beat nayrus) and smash attacks (nayrus is kinda slow so you can bait it out easily its literally 60 frames of FAF which is horribly laggy af) Olimar can combo till really late percents (around 100%) even past low percents with a grab not always with a blue tho. So idk what you are saying he cant combo Zelda too well lol.

 

[Kon]

Just wanted to add a thing about the Lucas MU:
today I played vs my brother's lucas and there was one thing I noticed. I'm not sure if it's always that way but I was able to bair him during lucas' upb flight with the yellow pikmin and killed him that way. Is this because they ignore electricity damage? Or because of the increased range? Like the important part about it was that I hit him during the flight, not when he's preparing his recovery or when he misses the ledge at the end of the upb, it was in the middle part.

Also one thing I like to do vs Lucas is sometimes going offstage and hitting lucas with a fair when he's preparing his upb as at that moment, every pikmin color can easily hit him. And my brother sometimes goes really deep to recover(like only seeing lucas in the bubble) and hitting him at that position kills Lucas of course

I'll test this maybe tomorrow again in order to be sure about it, but as for now, I think you only have to time the yellow bair right to land it. If so, well we may be able to edgeguard Lucas way better when he recovers low. Or maybe someone of you knows already more about it.

 

[Blue Banana]

Discussion for the Palutena, Robin, and Zelda matchups is now closed. Thanks for all the responses.

is a heavily advantageous matchup.

Both and are tentatively even matchups.

------------------------

Discussion 18 - The Retro-Future



Mr. Game and Watch Frame Data
Duck Hunt Frame Data
Shulk Frame Data

Spoiler: Old Quotes (Shulk)

Although people will argue that Shulk is an Olimar counter, I feel its the opposite. I enjoy playing against him because now not only do I have to pay attention to my own pikmin, but to his arts as well. The arts drastically change each play style of Shulk and that's pretty much the key to beating him. Things worth mentioning are Shulk's lack of approach options. When one dashes at you, its more than likely it'll short hop a nair. Out of shield jabs into grabs are strong because of Shulk's poor frame data leaving him very vulnerable out of hitstun. Of course we all know this matchup is infamous for Shulk being able to counter each individual pikmin tick. Remember that the vision cannot be shielded. However, any shulk that abuses this against Olimar is a bad Shulk. Because the individual pikmin are proc'ing the counter, Olimar is not set in an attack animation as if you were to fsmash his counter. This makes it so you can act while he is in his "I SEE IT" animation. Shulk is also in slow motion in this window and Olimar is not (Correct me if I'm wrong) so even with the worst reaction speed you should be able to simply jump and avoid the hit. Now for the arts. I tend to mostly avoid shulk in jump stance because I just don't like dealing with it LOL. I think of Speed Shulk as Grab Shulk and, even in this stance, still has limited approach options, basically just adding a great dash grab to this kit and a possible out of shield jab combo. Shield is easy to camp and can combo him from 0-999% using up throw to various aerials. Buster is kinda where the match isn't super jank and we can easily out-space Shulk when he doesn't have one of the insane mobility buffs. Smash Monado displays smash 4 at its finest where a smash attack from either character will result in a kill at 70. Be wary of the down throw however.

Unfortunately my last Shulk set wasn't recorded or else I'd have some really great video evidence

No quotes for G&W or Duck Hunt.

Discussion will be closed on Friday, February 26.

 

[Folie]

Personally I don't really have any input on the Olimar - G&W MU as I've literally never played against an olimar. A while ago someone made a thread in our sub about it and @Ghost Pikmin provided some well-written thoughts and a vod of him vs Soulimar, so I'll just link that post:
http://smashboards.com/threads/how-does-g-w-combat-a-decent-olimar.429795/#post-20838463

aside from that, I think there was someone else in our skype group that went up against a good olimar (maybe soulimar? can't remember) and had vids of it, I'll try and see if I can find out who that was

EDIT: wasn't what I was looking for I think but here's KOSSismoss vs Angbad https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKz5lJOSuYo
EDIT 2: still not finding it but I found Songun (best Japanese g&w) playing an online set of the MU lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUJ7pKy9wrI

 

[StripedNinja]

I personally don't know the matchup super well but Gimr has said it's really bad I know. Game and Watch doesn't really have a way to approach since his areils are all pretty laggy except like dash attack, which we can punish if we see it coming, and our kill throw is really good against him since he's so light. Mixed with the fact that he has no kill throw. Off stage I don't think we can safely interrupt game and watches up B, but we still have all our ledge coverage. Probably like 65/35 in Olis favor I would imagine.

 

[StripedNinja]

Discussion for the Palutena, Robin, and Zelda matchups is now closed. Thanks for all the responses.

is a heavily advantageous matchup.

Both and are tentatively even matchups.

------------------------

Discussion 18 - The Retro-Future



Mr. Game and Watch Frame Data
Duck Hunt Frame Data
Shulk Frame Data


No quotes for G&W or Duck Hunt.

Discussion will be closed on Friday, February 26.

Duck Hunt is like one of our easiest matchups imo. We can easily disrupt can and frizbee with fsmash and purples, and latched pikmin will just blow the can up and damage duck hunt. Fsmash can also take out the gunman pretty handily if we're in range. Duck Hunts approach game is poor so Olimar can really just abuse it the whole game until either he gets to kill throw percents OR he gets offstage since duck hunts recovery is one of the worst and most abusable recoveries in the game. Olimar can struggle sometimes when offstage cause duck hunt has some good edgegaurding tools but duck hunt struggles more just because of how bad and limiting his recovery is. 80-20 in Olimars favor

 

[WispBae]

Don't agree the MU is so far in Olimar's favor. Considering I play with an olimar on a regular basis, there are a few things to note:

• Gunmen shots go through pikmin and hit Olimar.
• Trick Shot is only really used in this MU when Olimar is offstage, because the pikmin detonate it.
• Clay Pigeon is not used in the neutral game enough to warrant it as a huge deal if Doggy can't use it. If you're fighting a Duck Hunt who loves his side-B, that's an easy win, since that move has years of endlag.

The main method in this MU is gunmen abuse. Unless Olimar wants to ONLY use purples, they will be annoying to deal with, and taking a sacrifice of only purples is something I think most olimars will not do. Since gunmen go through pikmin to hit olimar, it forces him to choose an option, which can be abuse. Shielding leads to more free pressure or grabs, and jumping can be caught with the silly range of Doggy's fair.

Both of them struggle off stage with their recoveries. They're both very spikeable, and even if you forsake pikmin to recover, it puts you in a very defensive position until you have a chance to pluck pikmin.

Olimar is great at forcing people to approach, which means its a great tool to have in many MU's considering his low lag F-Smash and up throw KO. However, Duck Hunt also forces people to approach in his MU. It's more a matter of who is using their projectiles better. While Olimar can use his Side-B, the fact that Duck Hunt can set up gunmen that go through pikmin is a major annoyance. On top of that, Duck Hunt doesn't have to approach in this MU, and would most likely be horrible for him if he did.

I'd say this MU is slightly in Olimar's favor, due to him having better KO options. However, I very much disagree with the fact that it's as ridiculously in Olimar's favor as you think it to be.

Edit: We've talked about Olimar in the DH boards. If you care to see what was said, click here.

 

[Folie]

I personally don't know the matchup super well but Gimr has said it's really bad I know. Game and Watch doesn't really have a way to approach since his areils are all pretty laggy except like dash attack, which we can punish if we see it coming, and our kill throw is really good against him since he's so light. Mixed with the fact that he has no kill throw. Off stage I don't think we can safely interrupt game and watches up B, but we still have all our ledge coverage. Probably like 65/35 in Olis favor I would imagine.

If you compare the vids I posted to what Gimr does in the vods of him losing to Logic, I think he's an example of what a G&W shouldn't be doing in the MU, as I believe he gives olimar too much respect in neutral and practically lets him gain a lead on him and doesn't take advantage of having a lead as much as say, Ghost Pikmin did. Gimr isn't bad by any means but I would caution against using him as an example of optimal G&W play. His style is usmash heavy which from what I've seen, doesn't seem to work well against Olimar.

You could definitely make the argument for G&W losing the MU, but there's no way it's that heavily. Characters that beat G&W that heavily are characters like Fox, Sonic, Sheik, Diddy, characters that are fast, have great oos, have great kill options, and can abuse G&W's neutral problems heavily. As far as I've seen, Olimar only covers the neutral part of that, and tbh not the heavily compaired to the 4 i listed

 

[StripedNinja]

Don't agree the MU is so far in Olimar's favor. Considering I play with an olimar on a regular basis, there are a few things to note:

• Gunmen shots go through pikmin and hit Olimar.
• Trick Shot is only really used in this MU when Olimar is offstage, because the pikmin detonate it.
• Clay Pigeon is not used in the neutral game enough to warrant it as a huge deal if Doggy can't use it. If you're fighting a Duck Hunt who loves his side-B, that's an easy win, since that move has years of endlag.

The main method in this MU is gunmen abuse. Unless Olimar wants to ONLY use purples, they will be annoying to deal with, and taking a sacrifice of only purples is something I think most olimars will not do. Since gunmen go through pikmin to hit olimar, it forces him to choose an option, which can be abuse. Shielding leads to more free pressure or grabs, and jumping can be caught with the silly range of Doggy's fair.

Both of them struggle off stage with their recoveries. They're both very spikeable, and even if you forsake pikmin to recover, it puts you in a very defensive position until you have a chance to pluck pikmin.

Olimar is great at forcing people to approach, which means its a great tool to have in many MU's considering his low lag F-Smash and up throw KO. However, Duck Hunt also forces people to approach in his MU. It's more a matter of who is using their projectiles better. While Olimar can use his Side-B, the fact that Duck Hunt can set up gunmen that go through pikmin is a major annoyance. On top of that, Duck Hunt doesn't have to approach in this MU, and would most likely be horrible for him if he did.

I'd say this MU is slightly in Olimar's favor, due to him having better KO options. However, I very much disagree with the fact that it's as ridiculously in Olimar's favor as you think it to be.

Edit: We've talked about Olimar in the DH boards. If you care to see what was said, click here.

Gunman being so slow and obvious makes it not to hard to deal with and again it's pretty easy to kill at mid range. Since all other projectiles are demolished by pikmin, duck hunt absultely has to approach imo, and he has no good approach options. Gunman just isnt a good projectile when its on its own. Plus the fact that Olimar has a kill throw will make duck hunts want to go in anyway. The length of Olimars recovery and the fact that he can attack out of it makes it vastly better than duck hunts, and since duck hunt is slow and can't go offstage very deep it isn't hard to get around whatever option he selects to edgegaurd. It's true that duck hunt IS really good at making characters approach, so when you have a character that complete negates that ability, basically his core character strategy, it's just not a good time. I could see it MAYBE being 70-30 possibly but I do believe this is in the relm of Olimars easiet matchups.

 

[StripedNinja]

If you compare the vids I posted to what Gimr does in the vods of him losing to Logic, I think he's an example of what a G&W shouldn't be doing in the MU, as I believe he gives olimar too much respect in neutral and practically lets him gain a lead on him and doesn't take advantage of having a lead as much as say, Ghost Pikmin did. Gimr isn't bad by any means but I would caution against using him as an example of optimal G&W play. His style is usmash heavy which from what I've seen, doesn't seem to work well against Olimar.

You could definitely make the argument for G&W losing the MU, but there's no way it's that heavily. Characters that beat G&W that heavily are characters like Fox, Sonic, Sheik, Diddy, characters that are fast, have great oos, have great kill options, and can abuse G&W's neutral problems heavily. As far as I've seen, Olimar only covers the neutral part of that, and tbh not the heavily compaired to the 4 i listed

Yeah that sounds reasonable, I'm mostly theorycrafting and going off what I've heard since I haven't played the matchup that much.

 

[Blue Banana]

Reminder that discussion will move on to another set of characters on Saturday. Any input on Shulk is appreciated since there isn't any yet.

 

[-The Gucci Fairy-]

Reminder that discussion will move on to another set of characters on Saturday. Any input on Shulk is appreciated since there isn't any yet.

DONT LOSE THE LEAD OR HE WILL CIRCLE CAMP YOU THATS CANCER WITHIN ITSELF


-Power shield all aerial approaches (to do that you need to watch his patterns while ur running away or just regularly sheilding). (try too punish with jab jab or nair perhaps obv be creative)
-He will be forced to grab and if he goes into speed mode its almost telegraphed that he will go for dash grab so its just a matter of playing around that fact and getting some hard punishes in
-while ur running away chipping dmg on him with pikmin is good
-if he trys to use counter with pikmin latch jump , never shield or just whistle them back
-always have a purple(pretty much all MU's)
-this MU becomes more bearable if u have your whistle armor on point (especially on those rage smash monado uptilt BS)
-pivot grab his landings (run past him sometimes maybe too or run away then retreat pivot grab)
-yellows for more range on aerial fair mixups or yellow fsmash
-be smart when getting back to ledge , if u go hella low he cant really get u THAT easily if hes not in jump monado, but he probably will so, maybe throw ur pikmin(purple) onto stage and sacrifice the others and wait a little bit for his jump monado to go out if u can then use Up B (this is only good as a mixup), its always better to be able to travel under the stage (town and city, some omega stages,miiverse(easier to travel under stage, etc) and if he chooses to kill the purple, keep that in mind and itll be a good distraction for u to get back regardless.
^alot is basic olimar tbh but thats just some examples off the top of my head

 

[koken]

G&W

• Hard MU because of his mobility.
• He can juggle with us in the air for days.
• Has some multi-hit options which can mess our recovery.
• Very light, I'm not sure but he might be lighter than us.
• Difficult to gimp.
• We have more range against his attacks.
• A few of his attacks clanks against pikmin and give him lag.
• I think it might be an even mu or maybe slightly disadvantageous for us.

Duck Hunt

• Bad recovery. Short distance and very linear.
• He can spam but he cannot approach faster, so we can play from afar very safely.
• Good smashes with good coverage.
• The can is very tricky if DH use it correctly. May kill you indeed.
• Same as us, bad air play. Even though he can kill you with a gimp if you are underestimating him.
• You may be forced to jump the disk he throws but with a latched pikmin it will rise up his damage on every attempt to approach.
• I think it's slightly advantageous for us.

Shulk

• Great mobility thanks to the monado art.
• Needs to approach and attack very often with jumping moves.
• Has good range but with a constant jumping, pikmin latched will increase the damage as well.
• Can activate counter like everyone when the pikmin hit him.
• Huge coverage on edge guard with the Up Smash.
• His recovery is tricky but you can gimp it.
• Abuse of your pivot smash-grab.
• I think it may be slightly advantageous for us, but I will say it's like even.

 

[StripedNinja]

I thought shulk was slightly in our favor pre buff but post buffs he's harder to punish which is our main play against him, so I would say it's even.

Also yes game and watch is lighter than us.

 

[koken]

I'm glad to see I helped .

 

[Blue Banana]

Discussion's ended blah blah blah. Thanks for all the responses.

is a even/slightly advantageous matchup.
is an advantageous matchup.
is an even matchup, though in my opinion I have seen and experienced matches where it feels more like a disadvantageous matchup. It's hard to take advantage of Shulk's relatively poor frame data when his range in his aerials exceed ours on top of item priority on most of our attacks. There's also the fact that he can easily circle camp once he gets even a small lead like Gucci said. It seems to be a matchup where you really need to take advantage of powershielding.

------------------------

Discussion 19 - En Garde!

/

Link Frame Data
Marth Frame Data
Lucina Frame Data
Roy Frame Data

Spoiler: Old Quotes (Link)

I usually shield his projectiles and throw pikmin at his head. Then wait and look how he's reacting to this. If he's trying to kill the pikmin with a move, get close to him but still stay out of his range barely in order to punish him right afterwards with a dashgrab. If he's going for aerials you should go for pivot grabs. When running away, look if he's following you as there might be an occasion for a pivot grab again. Also pivot fsmashes are great if he's trying to approach in any way.

Spoiler: Old Quotes (Roy)

Roy's fast, so he can generally close the distance between him and Olimar quickly and make the fight shift between midrange and close range. I don't think he has any safe approaches; aerials don't have any solid IASA frames as far as I know which just leaves dash attacks/grabs to worry about for the most part.

Close range, Olimar would need to pick safe moves that don't leave him vulnerable for too long and watch for how Roy acts because his attacks are faster than his. It's probably the same as applying the same close range tactics to other characters w/ fast frame data like Mario and Luigi. Neutral B doesn't have a lot of endlag, so it's difficult to punish him after a whiff.

Since Roy's a fast faller, he's probably vulnerable to some Dthrow combos that other fast fallers like Fox and Shiek are vulnerable to, like Dthrow -> Fsmash.

Roy's recovery covers an average amount of distance or height in expense of the other depending on the trajectory, so knocking him low off-stage w/ Dsmash or gimping w/ purple side Bs can work.

Yeah dthrow combos work well on him. Just throwing him offstage is often enough to secure the stock at high %s. His fall speed makes upthrow a bit less useful but a backthrow at the edge at 120% puts him in a really awful position, especially if you have purples, like you mentioned.

Olimar seems to not be able to avoid roy's dthrow up b combo, which allows him to rack up substantial % much quicker than Oli can chip away. I haven't played the MU a whole lot so it's possible this is avoidable, but it seems tough to deal with. Closing out stocks is imperative to winning this matchup imo. Rage is incredibly potent for Roy.

No quotes for Marth or Lucina.

Discussion will be closed on Friday, March 4.

(completely unrelated but cool music, can't think of anything sorry)

 

[Blue Banana]

Reminder that discussion will end on Friday.

 

[koken]

Link

• Difficult approach for us because his game is about spamming. We don't have very good tools against that.
• Can keep pressure from distance with boomerang, arrows and bombs. Kind of slow but it can.
• He can build damage from afar as well.
• Needs to hit you somehow to initiate and approach, almost every kill option is a setup.
• Can fall above us with Nair, which has long duration and big hitbox.
• Aerials have better coverage than ours.
• If he fail a smash, they have big end lag.
• High risky high reward on grab game.
• Even when we don't need to approach, his tilts moveset hits strong against our pikmin.
• A purple is a MUST in this match up.
• His grab kills later so you may worry later.
• Not a great recovery but may stage spike you. Best way to destroy him is to Dair his head but only if you are confident enough.
• He may not come back if you sniper him with a Purple on his way back to the stage.
• His edge guard seems bad but they can kill you with a bomb and dair set-up.
• Seems like slightly disadvantage for us but I need more MU experience to have a strong opinion. Till now I haven't be able to defeat goods link .

Marth / Lucina

• Obviously they have better aerials than ours and with better range.
• We can lay back and let the pikmin do the work without effort.
• They tend to fall with Fair, adding more lag to the move and landing.
• Careful with pivot grabs to catch those landings, because they have more range.
• Extra careful on repeating punishes when they land, countering a Fsmash may kill us very early.
• High reward high risk on trying to gimp them. I don't recommend it anyway.
• Don't ever try to fight these on the air, you will lose horrible.
• If you dare to gimp, there are some situations when you can trade a Dair against his/her Up B.
• Pikmins will do the work on build damage, just stay at proper distance and play safe against those counter.
• Careful on being juggled in the air, you can stay there for a while if you are careless.
• They will not recover if you hit them with a Purple on their way back.
• Not a great edge guard game but they can catch you up on a mistake.
• His dair spike as hell, and against Marth every tipper counts, if you know what I mean x_x.
• Advantageous because they have to space to succeed, we don't need to approach so... what are they going to space?

Roy

• Strong and faster tilt. May take off pikmin faster.
• Keep safe at distance throwing pikmin and try to recognize his habit. Once you have a Purple this MU is very easily.
• Not sure about this but you can trade some aerials against him.
• His recovery is very easily to be gimped or punished. Take note on that.
• Usmash covers a good amount of space and may kill you easily at 70% and more.
• Neutral B and Usmash gain so much extension/hitboxes while hitting a Pikmin, so TAKE CARE.
• Stay on the ground, Roy seems move faster to me than Lucina and Marth, and I believe he can get closer easily if you don't punish his moves.
• Not a great edge guard game but his special move hits hard if you are not aware. Try to recover safely and faster.
• He will not recover if you hit him with a Purple on his way back.
• His dair is a strong move and can spike very well, don't take it lightly.
• Advantageous in my opinion, saying that you have 1 or more purple, it's a pain for Roy to get closer to us.

 

[Rucent]

The Sonic Match Up Thread is currently discussing Sonic vs Olimar/Alph! We would love it if you gave us your input on the match up!

http://smashboards.com/threads/soni...atch-olimar-alph.390575/page-13#post-20959433

Thank you! :D

 

[Blue Banana]

Discussion for Link, Marth, Lucina, and Roy matchups has ended. Thanks for the response.

All overall ratings are tentative.

is a slightly disadvantageous matchup.
/ is an advantageous matchup.
is an advantageous matchup.

Any input on these characters is still welcome despite discussion moving on to another set.

------------------------

Discussion 20 - Health and Exercise

()

Wii Fit Trainer Frame Data
Dr. Mario Frame Data
Little Mac Frame Data

Spoiler: Old Quotes (Little Mac)

ban final D, then hide on a platform and spam dtilt and d-smash.

But honestly, just run away and pivot grab / smash his approaches. and always try to have a purple for a side b gimp. whenever he gets his ko punch, just hide on a platform and dtilt when he trys to jump up.

The thing about vs little mac is that there is a specific strategy to beat him universally with every character, which is basically just running away on platforms. Idk if you can really make a MU chart vs little mac if you include any stages that aren't FD/Smashville/Castle Siege. @Flawlessh was "joking" but that's actually how you optimally play vs little mac on any of those stages not previously mentioned.

Ok so assuming you are put onto a scenario where you are faced with going to FD or choose to opt to fight him head on (obviously running away back to platforms to safety as mentioned previously is safe, Also prolly think of a game plan to deal with him while you camping on their haha) retreating fairs and bairs are okay against mac tho theyre risky when u have to land back to the ground. Empty short hops are good to bait out stuff (baiting out is wonderful in general for this matchup), key things to keep in mind really is to take control of center stage and force him off the edge(being on the edge for you gives him way more options to go for you so its not always the best idea some little mac's actually want you to do that). Its always good to space yourself away from him maybe two fsmashes(or 1 fsmash for the most part) apart if you can and then camp with pikmin throw, when approaches you his safest option to come at you is a dash attack, which we can just fsmash or sheild grab for a free punish (same with his jolt hay maker although if ur on the edge chances are he won't use it for fear of sd'ing but good little mac's will use the haymakers anyways and then do some silly thing were they can snap unto the ledge) Also keep a purple on you because throwing purples from a reasonable distance removes his KO punch,whilst regular dmg from pikmin latch doesnt really remove it at all. Shield is super safe in this matchup because fortunately,his grab isn't the best out there, using OOS jab to grab or fsmash is nice, however if u stay in ur shield too long know that he can do alot of shield dmg so don't rely on that too often. Bait out his counters and air dodges, especially when he's trying to recover because if you read that its a free gimp, or on stage free dmg this is one of the time where we actutally chase someone in the air cuz his air game is so bad and unlike most matchups for oli its worse than ours lol.

As we all know if you are trying to get back to stage besides using platforms to get back, he can do that also so just be aware of that and you could probably punish him from there too, don't ever land back on stage unless u really need to because landing vs mac on the stage like we all know can be quite frustrating. Having a white pikmin is wonderful for this matchup as pivot grabbing beats his super armor(grabbing in general really but normal grabs are unsafe) and you can combo from a grab so that's always helpful to know,Having yellow pikmin for the tiny extra reach for the fsmash is nice to keep him away seeing as from max distance (a fsmash away length from him) an fsmash hitting his counter won't have him actually hit you back for the dmg as it doesnt go that far on the ground. Oh and he can downsmash on the ledge to catch u coming back to the stage so be smart when u recover that way. **One more thing to know is that always having at least one pikmin on the front of him if he hasn't already killed it and uses counter the counter is forced to activate so you can possibly have a variety of punishes from this situation.

About platforms his just be wary for stages like battlefield with the lower platforms he can upsmash through them and he does have aerials (although they're terrible but can still prop you off and get u in a bad position if you aren't careful) Also, while being on platforms be wary that his up B is in fact a useful kill move so don't thnk your always home free on them. Like what was said before me, just try to ban fd,although good lil mac's will already know that it would be banned so they practice on platform stages, I've read around on the little mac boards and it seems that they like to pick lylat since again the two outer platforms he can upsmash through, castle siege (he gets saved alot by the stage transitions although you could easily camp him on the higher platforms, especially if you break the statues he cant get on the on the 2nd transition without being very risk,the 3rd transition(lava fd one) is really good for him but it doesnt last that long compared to the other two, the first one is really bad for him since he cant even reach the platforms so he will likely not approach and wait till the stage transitions, Delfino perhaps is a good stage for and against him although its admittedly easier to camp here on certain parts so you just gotta be mindful at that point. He will most likely ban smashville, or duck hunt( duck hunt you can camp on the top of the tree its hilarious watching him try to chase u if u do it, although do be mindful when the dog pops up he can jump on top of it and get on the tree and get to you may be unsafe as hell for him but its something he might do thats nice to be aware of, , he can also kill you at 20% if he gets the entire Up B to hit at the top tree so be smart here if hes up there with u somehow). Halberd little mac's will also counterpick besides castle siege because its a little bit easier for him to chase you on the platform, dont ever stay on the edges of the platform though because the slopes where he can stand on he can still upsmash you, and ofc if they stage chooses to hit you instead of him he'd like that alot. Oh and one more thing when the stage transforms and goes on the ship its wonderful for him because the entire platform transforms so that his upsmash can hit through it, so again be aware of that and prolly would be safe to camp on platform once the stage transitions off the ship. They probably might also like town and city as well because some portions of the transition don't have platforms so you will definetly forced to fight him head on.

Play this matchup patiently and calm but precise, don't lose your cool and always remember even if your at a stock deficit and he has a KO punch, its just a little gimp away from evening the score back and winning, don't let him break your spirit just be careful and don't roll alot or he will dsmash for days, but most of you already know that. But yeah thats just my two cents to go into this a little detailed, I am prolly missing stuff, but thats what comes up to mind for me atm when I play against him.

No posts for WFT or Doc.

Discussion will be closed on Friday, March 11.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

I'll add whatever we have said on Olimar from the Doc boards. My opinion will be posted after this.

( Sorry if I make any English mistakes )

It's hard to tell because a good Olimar will just run away and side b / pivot FSmash and Doc can't chase Olimar with his low speed, so i'ts kinda frustrating. But you can cape both moves and he can die from a reflected FSmash super early.

I've played only a few Olimars, but here's what I think:

He is better on the ground, incredible grab range and killthrow, Dthrow combos, safe Forward Smash, his Up Smash is a great anti-air, Doc struggles a lot at getting the grabs and punishing. Pills are good in this matchup as long as Doc stays away from the Side B range, force Olimar to approach you, getting the grabs and juggles is vital.

Olimar is floaty and easy to juggle, don't let him land. His fastest and most safe aerial (Fair) is slower than Doc's Uair, Bair and Nair. Bair has more range and priority than his Fair so you can just spam it after a throw. Up Air chains are great too, but he can land safely with Nair and combo into Up Tilt if you miss.

Dthrow -> Fair is GUARANTEED from 70% to 86% and he is so dead.

When you are above him, don't waste your second jump and try to land anywhere, mixup your B reversals and jumps and come back to neutral as quickly as possible, sometimes landing with Down B catches people offguard. When Doc is offstage, is better not to recover low, in a disadvantaged position, Olimar can edguard the hell out of Doc, Up B to the ledge as quickly as you can. Recovering high is a better option because you can spam pills and make it an easier path.

Edguarding Olimar is super easy, if he recovers low, anything will do the job. Reverse Up B and Down B can eat his recovery at any %, and they kill early. Pills can get some nice % but they are not that helpful, Late Nair is kinda risky at low % but it will send him really far away at higher % and force him to Up B again and again desperately. Bair offstage can kill, but if the player is smart enough, he will hit you earlier and get a stage spike.

If he recovers high be careful, Olimar can cancel his Up B into aerials so he is kinda unpredictable.
He often tries to relieve pressure offstage by throwing all the pikmins at you, **** that, he is defenseless, but make sure to dodge or reflect any purple pikmin.

Don't get frustrated, stay calm, don't rush and let him approach you. Try different grab setups and use the pills carefully, as soon as he gets 70% Dthrow -> Fair ,and don't waste edgeguard opportunities.

Cape a FSmash and it's game over for him.

Doc should win this one but you need to be perfect and calm.
I'll say it's even but I don't know who has the advantage.
If the Olimar player gets in your head it's 0 - 100

I think making Olimar approach is a losing battle...
All we have is pills and a reflector with startup and lag. He has soldiers of variety to throw, including a brick wall and a poison dart (purple and white).
I think pressuring him constantly will get the best of him.

My opinion: I'm not really sure if either character has an advantage over the other. I'd say it's even.

(At least from what I know)

• Olimar can zone better and rack up damage quickly via Pikmin. I think his range is overall better than ours.
• Olimar's grab range is way better than ours. He can kill us with Blue Pikmin Up Throw. He can combo off of down throw into fair and uair.
• Olimar outruns Doc on the ground. In the air, he doesn't do that well. He can be pressured.
• Olimar's recovery is long, but exploitable. I've pressured an Olimar by just Up Airing under him as Doc.
• Olimar should be able to gimp with Fair if he guesses correctly. Ledge Trump back air should work as well.
• I don't think Olimar is great at landing due to his slow fall speed, and poor airspeed. Unless there's something I'm missing?

• We can cape Pikmin that are thrown at us via Side B or Forward Smash.
• Sheet actually gets rid of Pikmin that are latched onto Doc. Down-B and Up Smash also get rid of Pikmin.
• Doc (and Mario's) down throw has different amounts of lag depending on how heavy his opponent is. Therefore, in spite of Olimar's slow fall speed, we can combo him pretty well and kill him via Down Throw - Fair (or even Down Throw - Up Air - Up B) because of his weight.
• Down-B can beat out lots of options, pressure shields, and mix up our landings. It can also edgeguard well. We should be able to edgeguard Olimar via Down B if we guess correctly.
• Our Bair is our best tool for footsies, since it has the most range, comes out frame 6, and does 14%. We also have a low short hop, so we can pressure at close range.
• Sheet can be used to mix up our landings via wavebouncing it or b-reversing.
• Pills can be used, but primarily as a method of nullifying the Pikmin, not as a zoning tool. They can be b-reversed/wavebounced as well.
• Our Up-B is a reallygood OOS option (Frame 3, huge sweetspot hitbox, disjointed, reversible on hit and shield) and edeguarding option.

Summary: Even. They both have ways of racking up damage and killing, they can edgeguard each other, neither of them is particularly fast, neither has a significant range advantage (Olimar's is probably a bit better overall).

 

[Kon]

I'm not sure if Doc is even.

Getting Gimped?
While Doc may hit Olimar with the Down B when recovering, this isn't that important. We should tech if it stagespikes(and if not, it's a player's fault, not a fault of the character) and if we fall out or get thrown offstage again, we can still try again to recover. The doc needs to get the timing right 2-3 times in a row to possibly gimp us by getting the "fuel" empty of our upb. (when we throw our Pikmins away, we definitely should be able to try 3 times to catch the ledge) Also you should be aware of the fact we can mix up the timing when we will catch the ledge. Our upb allows us to go straight to the ledge, recover along the wall or even recover high. On stages with no high plattform Olimar can easily recover high without pikmins vs the Doc as he is to slow to punish the high recovery. This is an important point when speaking of edgeguarding.
On the other side as already mentionned by Eight_SixtyFour we only have to catch the Doc right after his jump offstage and hit him with a fair and he won't be able to make it back.

Doc's side B isn't really a reliable tool in neutral. An Olimar who is aware of the danger of a caped fsmash will never throw out a smash attack without thinking twice about it. More so, he can throw pikmin at the doc and bait the cape. If the doc goes for the cape, well Olimar can grab him during the ending lag of Doc's side B. We may have a pikmin on us then, but at least we can get a grab, so the trade would be fine.

Olimar hasn't the greatest airmovement so if the Doc gets us in the air, we may have problems to land. However his main juggling tool is a single hit and therefore we may be able to whistle through the upair. Olimar's pivot grab is good to punish aerial approaches, but the Doc's SH bair could possibly punish a pivot grab attempt.

Other MU-specific thinkings: Thinking about stages, BF, Lylat and Dreamland would probably be good stages for Doc in the MU, while we may have the better chances on stages like FD, Smashville and maybe Town & City. Duck Hunt should be fine for Olimar too.

"Dthrow -> Fair is GUARANTEED from 70% to 86% and he is so dead."
Is this really true for Doc vs Olimar? I thought you may be able to DI out of it. In general Olimar should try to avoid getting grabbed by the Doc, especially at these percentages if the fair is really guaranteed. Also if the dthrow fair is a guaranteed killsetup, this probably brings the MU close to even. Would still think Olimar has a slight advantage.

I may write something on the Mac MU later this week. Maybe also about WFT.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

I'm not sure if Doc is even.

Getting Gimped?
While Doc may hit Olimar with the Down B when recovering, this isn't that important. We should tech if it stagespikes(and if not, it's a player's fault, not a fault of the character) and if we fall out or get thrown offstage again, we can still try again to recover. The doc needs to get the timing right 2-3 times in a row to possibly gimp us by getting the "fuel" empty of our upb. (when we throw our Pikmins away, we definitely should be able to try 3 times to catch the ledge)

Selling point is in the knockback of Down-B, which is strong on the sides. We don't plan on hitting you 2-3 times. We plan on killing you. Same thing can said about reverse Up-B as an edgeguard. If you get hit towards the stage and tech, that will be handy for you, but then that's a fault of the Doc player for not positioning Down-B properly.

Also you should be aware of the fact we can mix up the timing when we will catch the ledge. Our upb allows us to go straight to the ledge, recover along the wall or even recover high. On stages with no high plattform Olimar can easily recover high without pikmins vs the Doc as he is to slow to punish the high recovery. This is an important point when speaking of edgeguarding.
On the other side as already mentioned by Eight_SixtyFour we only have to catch the Doc right after his jump offstage and hit him with a fair and he won't be able to make it back.

Ok, but that doesn't change what options each character has when it comes to edgeguarding. We can say the same thing when it comes to recovering. We can vary when we use our Down-B and double jump, and which way we use the Down-B and how high we go. Side B also snaps to the ledge almost instantly, so we may not need to use our Up-B.

I don't think Doc is that slow to punish a character with poor air speed and very low fall speed. We can trump him as well.

Doc's side B isn't really a reliable tool in neutral. An Olimar who is aware of the danger of a caped fsmash will never throw out a smash attack without thinking twice about it. More so, he can throw pikmin at the doc and bait the cape. If the doc goes for the cape, well Olimar can grab him during the ending lag of Doc's side B. We may have a pikmin on us then, but at least we can get a grab, so the trade would be fine.

Olimar hasn't the greatest air movement so if the Doc gets us in the air, we may have problems to land. However his main juggling tool is a single hit and therefore we may be able to whistle through the upair. Olimar's pivot grab is good to punish aerial approaches, but the Doc's SH bair could possibly punish a pivot grab attempt.

Unlike Mario, Doc gets a noticeable boost when b-reversing/wavebouncing his Side B. The move doesn't have too much landing lag out of a short hop, so it's not a bad tool in neutral. Blindly spamming Side B is one thing, but it's not unreliable.

Up Air actually combos into itself around 50%-70% (even higher) pretty consistently. It can combo into back air as well (though I'm not sure if it's that reliable on Olimar due to his size). Even if we don't attempt to combo you, we can still pressure with back air and up air.

"Dthrow -> Fair is GUARANTEED from 70% to 86% and he is so dead."

Is this really true for Doc vs Olimar? I thought you may be able to DI out of it. In general Olimar should try to avoid getting grabbed by the Doc, especially at these percentages if the fair is really guaranteed. Also if the dthrow fair is a guaranteed killsetup, this probably brings the MU close to even. Would still think Olimar has a slight advantage.

DI doesn't change much unless the Doc player guesses incorrectly. Doc can follow the DI. And since his down-throw has weight-dependent throw lag, Doc has time to react to the direction Olimar DIs because Olimar is very light. Even without the kill setup, Doc has enough solid tools to deal with Olimar. I don't think either character has a material advantage/disadvantage over the other so I said it's even.

 

[Kon]

Selling point is in the knockback of Down-B, which is strong on the sides. We don't plan on hitting you 2-3 times. We plan on killing you. Same thing can said about reverse Up-B as an edgeguard. If you get hit towards the stage and tech, that will be handy for you, but then that's a fault of the Doc player for not positioning Down-B properly.

Olimar can go very low, close to the bottom blastzone if needed. So Olimar can definitely bring himself in a position where he can be stagespiked at best. Olimar's recovery is not that linear like other recoveries. Doc's Down B can let him go a bit deep, but he still has to be careful and there are situations where the down B can't hit us in a way that we are thrown closer to the blastzone.

Ok, but that doesn't change what options each character has when it comes to edgeguarding. We can say the same thing when it comes to recovering. We can vary when we use our Down-B and double jump, and which way we use the Down-B and how high we go. Side B also snaps to the ledge almost instantly, so we may not need to use our Up-B.

I don't think Doc is that slow to punish a character with poor air speed and very low fall speed. We can trump him as well.

I think you didn't get my point. I was talking about Olimar's upb and during his upb with only one or no pikmin, Olimar is pretty fast in the air. This makes it hard for others to catch Olimar while he's recovering.
You're right that the Doc has tools to vary his recovery too. However Olimar with a purple can still be tricky(as Doc's side b can't let him stall in the air like Mario's cape). We can throw the purple offstage to hit you while we still stay on the stage. You're then forced to use an option and if you use the down b first, we can catch you right afterwards.

Unlike Mario, Doc gets a noticeable boost when b-reversing/wavebouncing his Side B. The move doesn't have too much landing lag out of a short hop, so it's not a bad tool in neutral. Blindly spamming Side B is one thing, but it's not unreliable.

Well I never talked of Doc spamming cape. I'm aware of the fact that most for glory tactics are kinda stupid and that good players don't do such things. The question about your boost when b-reversing/wavebouncing the Side B is: What advantage do you get out of it? Is it reliable to escape stuff with the b-reversed/wavebounced Side B?

Up Air actually combos into itself around 50%-70% (even higher) pretty consistently. It can combo into back air as well (though I'm not sure if it's that reliable on Olimar due to his size). Even if we don't attempt to combo you, we can still pressure with back air and up air.

It's good to know about Doc's combos but in which way does this have an effect on us whistling the first upair?

DI doesn't change much unless the Doc player guesses incorrectly. Doc can follow the DI. And since his down-throw has weight-dependent throw lag, Doc has time to react to the direction Olimar DIs because Olimar is very light. Even without the kill setup, Doc has enough solid tools to deal with Olimar. I don't think either character has a material advantage/disadvantage over the other so I said it's even.

Ok thx for the clarification on that.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

Olimar can go very low, close to the bottom blastzone if needed. So Olimar can definitely bring himself in a position where he can be stagespiked at best. Olimar's recovery is not that linear like other recoveries. Doc's Down B can let him go a bit deep, but he still has to be careful and there are situations where the down B can't hit us in a way that we are thrown closer to the blastzone.

I realize that it's not very linear, but it's still long. We can wait.

I think you didn't get my point. I was talking about Olimar's upb and during his upb with only one or no pikmin, Olimar is pretty fast in the air. This makes it hard for others to catch Olimar while he's recovering.
You're right that the Doc has tools to vary his recovery too. However Olimar with a purple can still be tricky(as Doc's side b can't let him stall in the air like Mario's cape). We can throw the purple offstage to hit you while we still stay on the stage. You're then forced to use an option and if you use the down b first, we can catch you right afterwards.

Aren't you committed to a direction when you use the Up-B? Even if you go far, you only go far in one direction. And then Olimar falls slowly to the ground.

Not sure why the comparison to Mario's Cape was brought up, especially since the stall on Mario's Cape is pretty bad. You get no momentum OR height when you use it so you're vulnerable after using it in the air. And then you're left with a double jump and an up-b.

Pretty sure if we just Sheet it before using our jump or our Down-B, we will be fine? Unless you bait something from us. But that's not Doc specific. Mario (and just about any character with mediocre recoveries or worse) can be exploited the same way. Depends on the situation I guess.

Well I never talked of Doc spamming cape. I'm aware of the fact that most for glory tactics are kinda stupid and that good players don't do such things. The question about your boost when b-reversing/wavebouncing the Side B is: What advantage do you get out of it? Is it reliable to escape stuff with the b-reversed/wavebounced Side B?

It's just another set of options for spacing, which also happens to get rid of latched Pikmin as well. A few Japanese Doc players in particular tend to use it to "micro"- space.

It's good to know about Doc's combos but in which way does this have an effect on us whistling the first upair?

My mistake, I see what you mean. Well, unless there's something unique about Whistle's super-armor, we can just Down-B through it if we can catch onto it. Dair can kinda work, but it's not as reliable as Down-B since it doesn't hit above Doc.

 

[Blue Banana]

Aren't you committed to a direction when you use the Up-B?

No, Olimar can change direction or speed while using his UpB.

 

[koken]

I liked the conversation you have here, it's pretty nutritive for both sides, thanks for that.

My humble opinion is that if a characters has a reflector / counter, he has a slightly advantage against us because of our weight, size and huge damage we can receive (I'm not sure if this applies for Zelda as well).
Nevertheless I think Dr. Mario is somehow restricted to a few situations where he has that advantage, in the rest of the match it's seems pretty even to me, but kind of not that even as with Mario.
Just as a first impression seems like a slightly advantageous match for us against Dr. Mario, maybe I need more time.

According to my personal experience, which by the way is not big at all, Dr. Mario can and will try to gimp any recovery his opponent does, but he can not go very far from the platform with that in mind. It may end in a suicide.
He will struggle trying to get closer with neutral B because a Fsmash will pass through it and hit the incoming short hop.
Dr. Mario's cape, as well as Mario, will take a stock from us for a careless recovery changing our direction and falling into the abyss.

We can grab combo Dr. Mario too and pull some capes with Fsmash intentionally to bait something else.

Finally I would say is slightly in our favor but I can't be sure with total confidence.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

No, Olimar can change direction or speed while using his UpB.

Not what I meant. When you use the Up-B can you change direction easily? Or are you for the most part committed to one direction?

 

[StripedNinja]

Not what I meant. When you use the Up-B can you change direction easily? Or are you for the most part committed to one direction?

If you have 0-1 pikmin you can pretty much go where you want, there's very little directional commitment to Olimars recovery, he can even stall with it just a bit if he needs to and he's careful.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

If you have 0-1 pikmin you can pretty much go where you want, there's very little directional commitment to Olimars recovery, he can even stall with it just a bit if he needs to and he's careful.

I tried moving around with 0 pikmin and 1 pikmin in training mode and for the most part, I could only move either left or right in one ascent. Even if it is technically possible to move in the opposite direction, it does not go very far. Changing the height wasn't difficult.

 

[StripedNinja]

I tried moving around with 0 pikmin and 1 pikmin in training mode and for the most part, I could only move either left or right in one ascent. Even if it is technically possible to move in the opposite direction, it does not go very far. Changing the height wasn't difficult.

The point isn't too go way back to the blast zones and back to the stage in one up B, the point is if you activate it and Dr Mario goes out to intercept you you have plenty of control to get around him or fade back a little if necessary

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

The point isn't too go way back to the blast zones and back to the stage in one up B, the point is if you activate it and Dr Mario goes out to intercept you you have plenty of control to get around him or fade back a little if necessary

While versatile, Down-B is not a reliable juggling tool and I never said it was primarily a juggling tool. It's to deal with Whistle Super Armor if it comes to that since it's a multi hit. Not like we are forced to use it.

Again, we can wait. I guess if you dip low, we shouldn't risk much unless we think you won't tech, but I'm not seeing how that's going to make edgeguard attempts less useful.

 

[StripedNinja]

While versatile, Down-B is not a reliable juggling tool and I never said it was primarily a juggling tool. It's to deal with Whistle Super Armor if it comes to that since it's a multi hit. Not like we are forced to use it.

Again, we can wait. I guess if you dip low, we shouldn't risk much unless we think you won't tech, but I'm not seeing how that's going to make edgeguard attempts less useful.

Sorry the only part of that post I wrote was that last paragraph, the rest accidentally got pulled from a misquoat.
You can't wait as long as we can wait which is the point. You also can't chase us super well if we choose to go high and you aren't expecting it. If you go offstage and we are like low we can still choose to recover high, that is the virtue of Olimars recovery

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

Sorry the only part of that post I wrote was that last paragraph, the rest accidentally got pulled from a misquoat.
You can't wait as long as we can wait which is the point. You also can't chase us super well if we choose to go high and you aren't expecting it. If you go offstage and we are like low we can still choose to recover high, that is the virtue of Olimars recovery

I figured that. No worries.

1. Why not? You are going to return to the stage at some point and don't move quickly enough to make it extremely hard for us to guess your location.
2. If we see you going high (or too high for us to reach), why would we bother chasing you? And even if we don't expect it, how long do you think it will take for us to react when you come back down?
3. That doesn't sound like a great idea if we see you going low. What will you do when you come back up? It sounds like it would be better to wait under the stage, then quickly come back up. Still risky, but less risky than going low then quickly coming back up.

 

[StripedNinja]

I figured that. No worries.

1. Why not? You are going to return to the stage at some point and don't move quickly enough to make it extremely hard for us to guess your location.
2. If we see you going high (or too high for us to reach), why would we bother chasing you? And even if we don't expect it, how long do you think it will take for us to react when you come back down?
3. That doesn't sound like a great idea if we see you going low. What will you do when you come back up? It sounds like it would be better to wait under the stage, then quickly come back up. Still risky, but less risky than going low then quickly coming back up.

Yeah okay well I'm just saying we have a lot of options offstage. And you wouldn't bother chasing us that's my point, its pretty easy to get around you in the edgegaurding phase, and a lot of the time we can just react to your read.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

Yeah okay well I'm just saying we have a lot of options offstage. And you wouldn't bother chasing us that's my point, its pretty easy to get around you in the edgegaurding phase, and a lot of the time we can just react to your read.

Never said we won't chase you at all. We won't chase you if we can just wait for you to fall. Going high and then having few ways to vary your descent = more time and more chances for us to react properly.

Going low, waiting, then coming back up = time for us to attempt stagespike/edgeguard attempts/trumps.

You can mix it up all you want, but none of your options are completely foolproof.

I don't think either of us is getting their point across. You're saying that you can react to our edgeguarding attempts, I'm saying that we can react to your recovery mixups. I'll just agree to disagree.

 

[Blue Banana]

Discussion for the Wii Fit Trainer, Dr. Mario, and Little Mac has ended. Thanks for the responses.

is an even matchup.

There were no posts on or . Even though discussion will move on to another set of characters, any posts on these MUs is still fine.

------------------------

Discussion 21 - Ro(t)und



Kirby Frame Data
King Dedede Frame Data
Jigglypuff Frame Data

Discussion will be closed on Saturday, March 19.

 

[StripedNinja]

Little Mac is just too hard to place. Nearly all of his matchups he can dominate or be destroyed, it's never clear cut. Because of that I would say it's even if you have to rate it.