Piklopedia - The Olimar Matchup Thread (1st ed. complete, open discussion)

[Blue Banana]

What does Mac's performance in other matchups have to do with this specific matchup?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The Rosalina sub-forum is analyzing Olimar (and Alph) again this week. Here's the link to the page if you have anything to contribute.

http://smashboards.com/threads/414442/

 

[koken]

Damn! I would swear I posted my opinion on the WFT and Little Mac MU.

Wii Fit Trainer

• Good recovery with hitboxes, not very extensive but may go deep. Doesn't work if the come back is above the platform.
• Has a very tricky move hitting the ball, which by the way is a meteor.
• Good aerials which may juggle Olimar, but not that much.
• Doesn't have safe kill options, almost every kill has to be a set up.
• Doesn't have a very good landing option, so it may be punished "easily".
• Good mind games and bait with the projectile of the sun so beware.
• We control the floor and WFT has some troubles by approaching with short hop.
• Yellow pikmin hits further in aerials against her/him. May be used to gimp if spaced properly.
• May be a little difficult but Purple sniper him/her can take a stock too.
• It is a fight with aggressive and defensive stands, very entertainment match to be honest.
• I think is slightly in our favor.

Little Mac

• Bad recovery, not a big discovery though.
• You can take a stock with a purple throw when he's recovery with no significant effort.
• Super armor is a constant. I would not recommend Usmash in this fight at least is a safe read or something like that.
• May kill us with tilt at the edge.
• Great coverage with Dsmash as an edge guard. Very painful though.
• Has a good counter, don't mess around with that.
• You may use his counter against him near the ledge and cost him a stock. It can be very hard to accomplish but super satisfying xD.
• Almost 0 aerials and options in the air. We "AT LEAST" win to someone at the air, finally.
• Very fast moves, dodges and run. We don't like faster characters...
• When you are landing above him or near, Usmash may hurt you as hell.
• I seriously don't recommend get risky with a Whistle super armor to fight any of his move, doesn't worth it and it's VERY dangerous.
• You should throw some pikmin and analyze reactions.
• The fights goes better when you faint some moves and play safe with our easiest combo Dthrow + Fair.
• I'm very unsure on how to categorize this MU, but I think is somehow even. Really don't know how, so for the sake of any insult I may receive, I would say it's even xD.

 

[StripedNinja]

What does Mac's performance in other matchups have to do with this specific matchup?

I'm saying that's Macs general performance in all matchups. Theres a little variation but the exremes of Macs strengths and weaknesses make giving him matchups and putting him on the teir list pretty difficult. Mac can destroy Olimar or Olimar can destroy Mac, so I would put it at even.

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

I see you guys are discussing King Dedede! Well, the only good Olimar I have ever played is Blue Banana so I have limited experience in this MU, but I guess I can share my views.

This matchup is friggin hard to play correctly and optimally. This goes for any character though, but I find it really difficult to keep track of what pikmin Olimar is using, and to play around it accordingly. I have trained myself by necessity to watch out for blue pikmin at KO percents so I know to avoid the grab like the plague, and sometimes I play around the purple pikmin by trying to keep Olimar at a hammer length away at all times. However I haven't learned the utility of most of the other pikmin well enough to know how to play around them.

I bring that part up because I feel that, if the MU is played optimally and the DDD player keeps track of exactly what pikmin is being used and knows exactly how to play around it, the MU becomes 50/50 or even in King Dedede's favor! Which very few matchups are for the King. But honestly I am not motivated to put in the time grinding the MU just so that I can beat literally the only Olimar within a 50 mile radius, Blue Banana.

More realistically, this matchup is slightly in Olimar's favor, and if the DDD player doesn't even play around Blue and Purples, it is heavily in Olimar's favor. The reason I emphasize the blues and purples is because Dedede's greatest strength in this MU is his survivability. If you can't land one of the lethal pikmin, Dedede will likely survive past 200% due to his weight, recovery, and disjoints. I feel like DDD loses the first 50% of his stock VERY easily in this MU, since he is so easy to hit with pikmin due to his sluggish speed, and huge hitbox. Dedede can shake off pikmin relatively well with Nair, but that is only a temporary fix. Gordos are a big part of the MU, and Olimar does have trouble hitting them back if he doesn't have the right pikmin ready to reflect. From what I remember, Purples are the only pikmin that truly reflect gordo. The other pikmin can eat a gordo hit, but they will likely die in the process and the gordo will simply disappear afterwards. Otherwise Fair, Bair, and F-tilt seem like decent options to reflect, but nowhere as safe or easy as throwing a purple. In the air, Dedede outranges Olimar pretty well, and Olimar is pretty light so he will die to a B-air relatively early, so I would imagine that you want to stay mostly grounded in the neutral phase. Also Dedede can edgeguard Olimar pretty well if that Bair doesn't quite kill him, so once Dedede is in the advantage state versus Olimar, he can really capitalize! However, the problem is getting in the advantage state. Dedede is slow as molasses in the air, and has no good options out of a dash (which is still pretty dang sluggish), so approaching a defensive Olimar is VERY frustrating. Olimar racks up a ton of free percent on Dedede just because he made some small misstep while approaching, so really, again, this MU comes down to 'can Olimar KO King Dedede before he harnesses his rage and gets a strong hit on Olimar?' Also I feel like I should bring up Dedede's fast fall approaches from above. This is easily DDD's best way to approach since the only fast thing he has is his fall speed, and DDD can choose to FF Bair, FF Nair, FF inhale, or FF land and grab. One of these four options can usually beat whatever Olimar decides to do, unless he decides to just run away. Olimar can't really challenge Dedede very well when he is floating above Olimar, as Dedede is just waiting for Olimar to commit to something so he can fall in and punish accordingly. From my experience against Blue Banana, if Dedede can consistently and successfully land one of these options, he can get Olimar to kill percent, and use rage to secure the kill. But DDD has no kill confirms or setups, so as long as the DDD plays around Olimar's heavy blows and pikmin, the first player to get a read or strong punish will basically take the game.

I can't really give a solid ratio on who wins and how often, but I firmly believe that Olimar is not that bad for Dedede, possibly even favorable if the king plays the matchup wisely, but this MU is arguably the most demanding of them all! Realistically, if the Dedede player has at least some knowledge of the MU, Olimar wins slightly, like 55-60%, and if the Dedede is unfamiliar with the MU, Olimar bodies him, like 60-70% in Olimar's favor, and I would guess that the majority of Dededes would fall into that range due to the rarity of Olimar mains.

 

[Blue Banana]

Gordos are a big part of the MU, and Olimar does have trouble hitting them back if he doesn't have the right pikmin ready to reflect. From what I remember, Purples are the only pikmin that truly reflect gordo. The other pikmin can eat a gordo hit, but they will likely die in the process and the gordo will simply disappear afterwards. Otherwise Fair, Bair, and F-tilt seem like decent options to reflect, but nowhere as safe or easy as throwing a purple.

Gordos can also be reflected by Fsmash. I remember a couple of times where I was able to hit you with both Fsmash and the Gordo rebound.

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

Gordos can also be reflected by Fsmash. I remember a couple of times where I was able to hit you with both Fsmash and the Gordo rebound.

Oh yeah! I forgot about F-smash! Usually I don't think about smashes when it comes to reflecting gordo since they are usually really slow, but Olimar's F-smash can go pretty far and reflects gordo with any pikmin, and is reasonably fast. F-smash is probably Olimar's optimal reflect option, but if the gordo is bouncing high, you have to time it so that you hit it while it is low, otherwise you will probably get hit.

 

[Axel311]

On Olimar/Dedede -

As a former Dedede main, Olimar definitely wins.

Dedede has a hard time getting in, really hard time. Olimar being so short really hurts Dedede's aircamping/FF backair effectiveness which is a huge part of his neutral. Dedede is so big and an easy pikmin target. However usually only purple pikmin reflect gordo which is good for Dedede.

A patient Olimar has the advantage. Just keep your distance, play campy and stay just outside of Dedede's ftilt range and be wary of Gordo. Don't get offstage. Apply constant pikmin wall pressure. Dedede shouldn't be getting through your wall.

60-40 Olimar advantage.

Very swingy though. If Olimar eats a dsmash and dies early, or gets thrown offstage and gets stage spiked/gimped because of his extremely exploitable recovery the advantage can switch quickly. Or if Dedede has the lead and can doesn't have to approach it's much better for Dedede.

 

[TimG57867]

Hello. Kirby main here. I wanted to post all week but it's only now that I have free time. Now, the : matchup has got to be one of the most hilarious ones in the game and I am pretty sure most of you know why but I'll get into that later. First I want cover vanilla Kirby.

Neutral

Now, generally, Olimar does have the edge in neutral. Kirby isn't a speed demon so it's not like Olimar is going to have no breathing room for his zoning grab. If Kirby just carelessly runs in, a pivot F-Smash or pivot grab should snuff him good. Kirby will probably want to come in through the air. Now due to Kirby's air speed, he still can't zoom in on Olimar but he's got multiple jumps and good (albiet slow) aerials. Kirby's best aerial for getting in my eyes in N-Air. It's relatively strong and should beat out any Pikmin except maybe a Purple Pikmin and it only has 10 frames of landing lag so you aren't a sitting duck if you whiff. Although the Kirby player should have his hands on the air dodge button because Olimar's F-Air will handly beat out him out if he's got the right the Pikmin out and does it fast enough. Be wary if Kirby's got his back towards you though because B-Air comes out on Frame 6 and is mad strong. When approaching Kirby, you have to be wary of his tilts as they're super fast. But you got Pikmin to toss and grab with so Kirby's ground frame data shouldn't be an overwhelming issue. Speaking of tossing, Olimar's Pikmin Throw will be quite a nuisance to Kirby, especially if he's got a lot of purples. In a pinch, Final Cutter can be used to ward off any Pikmin thrown and with the right spacing should not be punishable due to Olimar's run speed. And if you got Pikmin all over you N-Air is the move to use which is good given it's low landing lag. Overall, Olimar will have the edge in neutral thanks to his zoning tools although it's not like Kirby will have no chance of getting in. It will be tough though if the Olimar is on point.

Combos

Now Kirby's highlight is his combo game which is somewhat hard to pull off in this matchup do to Olimar's size. But F-Throw at super low percent should still lead into F-Air and Up Air and mid percents Olimar should be vulnerable to a Final Cutter out of the combo. And as far as combos go the same kinda goes for Oli too as Kirby's light weight means D-Throw to aerials will only work for so long. So I think they're pretty much even in terms throw combos although Kirby can do some mean strings in the air with Up Air and B-Air. Buff if there's one move Olimar should really watch out for, it's D-Air. While it does 18 frames of startup, it has amongst the lowest landing lag of all D-Airs in the game and if Kirby lands it, he can get a smorgus borge of followups which include grab, F-Tilt, Up-Tilt, and more. Up Tilt, especially the sour spot, is another good one as it leads into Kirby's aerials like Up Air.

Killing

In terms of killing, both got options. Since Olimar isn't a fast faller, D-Air to D-Smash should be a usable option although I am not sure if it's guarenteed. B-Air and all of Kirby's smashes have good kill power although Down and Up smash are hurt by their range while F-Smash isn't safe on shield. But Up Smash is one of the strongest Up Smashes in the game and will probably end Olimar between 80-90 percent and is invincible so don't take it lightly. Kirby's best kill option though is his Up Throw which I believe is the 5th deadliest Up Throw in the game and starts killing Olimar on Final Destination at 132% without rage and can be enhanced by platforms. Meanwhile Olimar has strong smashes of his own, especially when he's rocking a Red or Purple Pikmin. And he also has strong Up Throw when a Blue is on hand that's just slightly stronger than Kirby's IIRC.

Edgeguarding

In terms of edguarding, both can do stuff to each other. Kirby's multiple jumps ans low fall speed means he'll have an easy time waiting for Olimar if he's too weighed down to go to the other side (which he should if doesn't have any Pikmin and it's possible as Kirby isn't fast enough to catch that if I am correct). Otherwise's susceptible to B-Air and D-Air. B-Air will kill outright but D-Air won't unless it gets the spike box so you may have to do this multiple times and Olimar might slip through. Meanwhile Kirby is surpringsly vulnerable when recovering due to his air speed and Final Cutter. F-Air, B-Air, and D-Air should do well in punishing Kirby for reckless floating and if he mispaces the Final Cutter ledge snap (which CAN snap the ledge if does it right) you can meet him with a D-Smash.

Stage Choice

In terms of stage choice, Kirby will probably do well on Town and City, Smashville, and Dreamland. T&C and DL enhance Up Throw and Dreamland can make below the stage recovery harder for Olimar. Olimar will probably excel on Final Destination and Battlefield. The former is camping country and latter has big platforms to hinder Kirby's aerial approaches. Lylat is also probably good in this regard. Duck Hunt is a toss up. It's wide giving Olimar room to camp but has walls so no below stage recovery and it has the tree to allow for Kirby Up Throw jank.

Inhale and the Copy Ability

And now the moment you've all been waiting for! Now if it just up to everything I've said up until now, Olimar would have a clear (but not overwhelming) advantage. Even with his power, combos, and edgeguarding, Kirby would find it quite hassle to stay in Olimar's face. But Kirby's got an ace in the hole that completely flips the table on this matchup: Inhale. This command grab, which has become viable since patch 1.10 where its startup and endlag. Now it can be used about as well as 's chomp for catching shields, catching aerial approaches, or as a confirm off Up Tilt at lower percents (0-35% I believe) . And if Kirby inhales and copies Olimar, this matchup pulls a 180 and changes completely as now the tables turn. Unlike most copy abilities, Kirby's Pikmin pluck isn't a simple copy of Olimar's power. Rather, Kirby's Pikmin act as full on projectiles. They die when they hit the ground and all have knockback. Suddenly Kirby finds himself at a huge advantage as he now has a projectile that beats Olimars out (except for Purple's but your Pikmin have to walk back first and you won't always have enough to keep trading fire). Suddenly Olimar's forced to approach and has to get through a thick wall of Pikmin and even if he manages that, CQC is Kirby's specialty. And it doesn't end there. I am not sure if you guys no this, but Kirby can do more with the Pikmin Pluck than just tossing them. He's got a special tech called pluck gliding and its applications are demonstrated here:

It essentially gives Kirby an offensive wavedash that can lead into strong attacks while letting bob around in neutral. And before you ask if this applicable in combat, feel free to watch this:

Here you see that in capable hands, Kirby with Pikmin pluck becomes quite a force to be reckoned with. Simply put, you should NOT let us copy you because if you do, you're screwed.

FINAL JUDGMENT

To call this matchup insane would be an understatement. Were it not for Inhale would probably have an advantage. But if he allows Inhale to happen just once (which capable Kirby's will fish for and use wisely) , he'll find himself in a tremendous disadvantage. It makes it hard for me to rate the matchup overall. If the Olimar is on point, Kirby will have hard time getting in but if he gets in once and does it well, the Olimar find himself facing an uphill battle for the rest of the match and Kirby isn't totally incapable without the power anyway. I'll let you guys rate how you want. I am more concerned with just pointing out the tools each character has and how they should be used really.

 

[Blue Banana]

Reminder that discussion will move on on Sunday. Any posts on Jigglypuff is appreciated because it's the only character that doesn't have a post yet this week. I'll account for the Little Mac and WFT posts as well once I update the OP.

 

[koken]

I will end this post later this day, just want to post my opinion.

Jigglypuff

• Doesn't have an easy way to approach, and if jiggs fails, we can punish heavily.
• Needs to learn your habit and behave in order to connect a rest. If it succeed, you are in serious problems for being to damn obvious and repetitive.
• Usually death combo of multiples Fair doesn't take our stocks, because we can come back far away or at least dodge/super_armor/DI that combo.
• You succeed on escape from the multiples Fair combo? Try something risky and hit jigglypuff on his way back, if you do it appropriately it will not come back to the stage.
  
• Almost every option to approach has to be at air time and pikmin will not hit the shield so is always building up damage.
• Not agree with what I just said? Fine, try to shake off that latched pikmin with a Fair and jigglypuff will receive a Fair in the face.
• If jigg spam palm, ends with a lot of ending lag which you may take advantage, but caution because that movements remains active for more than it seems to and also break shields.
• Dash attack isn't an effective way to approach to us due to ending lag too, also it's easy to punish that with almost any Smash.
• Caution on landing above, because jigg's Up air covers a nice area.
• This fight is like playing the cat and the mouse. Run -> side B -> run and wait for his mistake to smash -> repeat until jigg tries something different.
• Pay attention when Jiggs comes out of the platform to play, you may get stage spiked if you are careless or send it to the doom.
• Do you like to be a spam boy/girl? Fine... jigglypuff will struggle against a purple messing him up.
• Did jigg start to hop dodge your missile? Nevermind, a Fair will gain some space again.
• Easily to Dair due to his big hurtbox and predictable moves/jump.
• More easily to get the stock if jigg recovers from deep distance.
• I totally believe is an advantageous MU for Olimar, something like 60/40 though.

 

[Blue Banana]

Discussion for the Kirby, Jigglypuff, and King Dedede matchups has ended. Thanks for all the responses.

Due to the nature of the matchup, I'm considering to be even.

is an advantageous matchup.

is tentatively an advantageous matchup.

Also, and are tentatively slightly advantageous and even matchups, respectively.

------------------------

Discussion 22 - Twelve Dollars

() ()

Bayonetta Frame Data
Corrin Frame Data

Initial impressions on Bayo and Corn MUs

Discussion will end on Saturday, March 26.

(a hidden music link is here again)

 

[koken]

I loved the name you chose for those 2 jajajajaj

 

[Skitrel]

Hi Olimars.

I'm going to go ahead and say this is pretty strongly Corrin favoured. Olimar seems to lose a lot of his advantages. Just about the only thing that truly threatens Corrin is Olimar's grab which can catch out Corrin's that like to space fair and nair on shield.

If you're going to throw Pikmin at a Corrin make sure you call them back before she gets remotely close. Having a riding Pikmin is an advantage in the matchup as it allows Corrin to trigger her invincible and completely unpunishable counter at-will.

Olimar gets juggled quite hard by Corrin and doesn't have the horizontal airspeed to move sideways enough to escape the frametraps.

Olimar's somewhat slow and predictable recovery is a real problem if Corrin is a stock up, offstage dair is a threat to him.

Olimar can not punish Instant Pin(sideB) with a kick away, nor can he punish tipper fsmash on shield. These are extremely abusable in all Corrin's matchups where this happens.

I'm strongly in favour of best girl winning this matchup I'm afraid, but I'm really open to spying on what the debate here just in case I meet one of your sneaky little guys sometime.

Look for those grabs as it's what seems to get Olimar the majority of his % during the matchup.

 

[Zult]

I actually have a good Olimar in my region. He goes by Shana in bracket, not sure if any of you know him. Here's what I think.

• Olimars like to roll and spot dodge. Bayonetta punishes those heavily. I do not recommend rolling under pressure or using it as an escape option. It could mean your stock.
• Olimar is kinda free offstage. Bayo conditions you to recover high and we'll adapt and punish you pretty hard. When you land with an aerial after your up b from recovering high watch out. We'll read that and witch time since that's what every Olimar does. Try not to get knocked offstage.
• Make sure to use your whistle if there's a pikmin latched onto us and we're near you. We can witch time you. But that the same time, if we know you'll whistle your pikmin back then we'll just punish the end lag of that instead.
• Grabs. Grab a lot. Your grab range with certain pikmin is ridiculous. Take advantage of that.

Those are just some tips. All in all, I don't think this match up is all that great for Olimar.

 

[Skitrel]

I'll add to the above - Only white pikmin pummels actually trigger counter, other pikmin pummelling do not. Why I hadn't noticed this before I'm not sure but be aware of this nuance, don't throw white pikmin.

 

[-The Gucci Fairy-]

I actually have a good Olimar in my region. He goes by Shana in bracket, not sure if any of you know him. Here's what I think.

• Olimars like to roll and spot dodge. Bayonetta punishes those heavily. I do not recommend rolling under pressure or using it as an escape option. It could mean your stock.
• Olimar is kinda free offstage. Bayo conditions you to recover high and we'll adapt and punish you pretty hard. When you land with an aerial after your up b from recovering high watch out. We'll read that and witch time since that's what every Olimar does. Try not to get knocked offstage.
• Make sure to use your whistle if there's a pikmin latched onto us and we're near you. We can witch time you. But that the same time, if we know you'll whistle your pikmin back then we'll just punish the end lag of that instead.
• Grabs. Grab a lot. Your grab range with certain pikmin is ridiculous. Take advantage of that.

Those are just some tips. All in all, I don't think this match it is all that great for Olimar.

Lol shana is my other alias XD but I'm pretty sure myran thinks differently I'd rate the matchup 55-45 at the least


Tldr don't commit ve smart about side b just be aware

 

[Zult]

Lol shana is my other alias XD but I'm pretty sure myran thinks differently I'd rate the matchup 55-45 at the least

Well you're the only good Olimar I've fought so far with Bayo. It could be you and not necessarily the match up. Still, I'm not too sure how this match up could be better than even for Olimar. At the same time, Myran may not even be playing a decent Bayonetta. We should get in more friendlies next week and see. This week has been busy for me.

 

[Perikong M.TurtleBits]

Olimar is one of my secondaries and I have fought a some Bayonettas and Corrins already with him. I have beat Bayo with relative ease, what I needed to do was letting the Pikmin do the work while getting far from her (but also control the Pikmin with the whistle because if Bayonetta is near you, a witch time can cost you a lot of damage) then take chance of the right moment to Fsmash or Dsmash and then Fair or Dair. The grabs are also really useful. My main problems were recovering. Her down smash and annoying combos on the air is what complicate this match. As for Corrin, the match is way harder imo. Once he grabs you or counter you, you're practically doomed. You have to be very careful with the Pikmin because his Fsmash can ruin your chance for a Pikmin throw or a Fsmash. I'd say the key is grabbing and try to stay far from the ledges as possible since if he combos you there your chances of surviving with Oli's recovery are few. So I'd say Corrin wins in most of the cases while Bayo might be a slightly advantageous or even matchup.

 

[-The Gucci Fairy-]

Well you're the only good Olimar I've fought so far with Bayo. It could be you and not necessarily the match up. Still, I'm not too sure how this match up could be better than even for Olimar. At the same time, Myran may not even be playing a decent Bayonetta. We should get in more friendlies next week and see. This week has been busy for me.

Oops 55-45 bayo favor

 

[Zult]

Oops 55-45 bayo favor

For a character like Bayonetta, that's a pretty good MU spread compared to the rest of the cast. Some characters I can go auto pilot as Bayonetta and win. I wouldn't say she's brain dead though (Bias? Idunno). She has no instant kill things off of grabs like pre-patch Luigi and Diddy Kong outside of witch time. And witch time (as broken as it is) still relies on your opponent hitting you. At higher levels of play, taking stocks can be annoying sometimes if you're not killing them at 70. But for a character as cheesy as Bayo I think 55-45 in Bayo's favor is a pretty good spread.

 

[koken]

I'll add to the above - Only white pikmin pummels actually trigger counter, other pikmin pummelling do not. Why I hadn't noticed this before I'm not sure but be aware of this nuance, don't throw white pikmin.

You mean pummels when you have the pikmin latched on, right?
If so... that's something new? Because I remember pretty well when every single pikmin could activate Corrin's counter.

What I do remember well is, if Corrin activates the counter in the exact moment the Pikmin hits while latched on, it get glitched and doesn't activate anymore with that pikmin until latched off.

 

[Blue Banana]

Discussion for the Corrin and Bayonetta matchups is now closed. Thanks for the responses.

is a slightly disadvantageous matchup.

is tentatively a disadvantageous matchup.

------------------------

Discussion 23 - The Fighters' Templates



Mii Brawler Frame Data
Mii Swordfighter Frame Data
Mii Gunner Frame Data

Please specify the size and special moves used when talking about the Mii Fighter matchups (i.e., tall/wide/2312, short/thin/3132, etc.) "Default" can be used as the term for guest Miis w/ moveset 1111.

Discussion will be closed on Saturday, post April Fools.

 

[Skitrel]

You mean pummels when you have the pikmin latched on, right?
If so... that's something new? Because I remember pretty well when every single pikmin could activate Corrin's counter.

What I do remember well is, if Corrin activates the counter in the exact moment the Pikmin hits while latched on, it get glitched and doesn't activate anymore with that pikmin until latched off.

Correct, I do mean when it is latched on. Only the white Pikmin triggers my counter in this MU. Doesn't seem to be a glitch, perhaps they fixed the glitch and decided this was better?

All physical attacks otherwise that you'd expect to trigger it do so as normal.

 

[koken]

Correct, I do mean when it is latched on. Only the white Pikmin triggers my counter in this MU. Doesn't seem to be a glitch, perhaps they fixed the glitch and decided this was better?

All physical attacks otherwise that you'd expect to trigger it do so as normal.

Oh man... that's a huge HUGE buff to us and a tremendous nerf to you.
Thank you for the update .

 

[GS3K]

Hello olimars, one of the gunners here. I don't have a lot of experience in this MU since I'm not an expert on olimar and haven't played any good ones. That said, the only thing I can think of is that gunner will have difficulty getting rid of red pikmin outside of nair and ftilt because red pikmin aren't affected by fire (correct me if I'm wrong) and gunner has a lot of moves that do fire damage.

In terms of everything gunner has that can do fire damage:

• 3rd hit of jab
• dash attack (if the cannon connects)
• utilt
• dtilt - the exact same as samus'
• dsmash - first hit drags opponent into the second one and can usually kill around 90% or so with gunner backed to the edge
• usmash - the same as samus', but because gunner is shorter the hits connect easier
• bair
• dair (if sweetspotted)
• floor/trip attack
• grenades (neutral b 3) - multihit explosive that might clash with pikmin since patch 1.1.0 changed grenades to not blow up on contact with other hitboxes
• flame pillar (side b 1) - basically robin's arcfire, but the wall pushes you back instead of trapping you.
• stealth burst (side b 2) - a linear din's fire
• gunner missile (side b 3) - based off samus' missiles. complete with guided variants that home slightly better than samus' and super missiles that are slightly weaker
• cannon uppercut (up b 2, first hit) - gunner's only recovery with a hitbox above it. has very poor vertical recovery without a second jump. the first hit generally leads into the punch on grounded opponents, but it spikes in the air
• bomb drop (down b 2) - an explosive similar to samus' bombs, but stronger and have a lot of shield damage (as in, 2 bombs can break a full shield)

 

[AEMehr]

Speaking from Medium/1111 experience.
Gunner vs Olimar can be very annoying for Gunner, because Pikmin can take the hit from the key projectile Gunner shoots out, being Charged Shot. Basically all Olimar usually has to do to contest Gunner's attempts to get damage on him from range is to toss out a Pikmin to eat the hit.

Without being able to have the easy to toss out moves like Grenade (N3) or Missile (S3) I can see this matchup being very annoying at range. Unfortunately I don't really know what Olimar players usually do during matches, I mean I'd guess a lot of it is getting chip through Pikmin toss.

In that case Reds are especially difficult to get rid of because Gunner is the fighter with the most fire based attacks out of every character in Smash history (Not even counting the other specials).

It would be nice to have a player face off to better understand how to go about playing against one another. But as far as I can tell it seems like it might be somewhat of an uphill battle for Gunner.

 

[koken]

Discussion for the Corrin and Bayonetta matchups is now closed. Thanks for the responses.

is a slightly disadvantageous matchup.

is tentatively a disadvantageous matchup.

Correct, I do mean when it is latched on. Only the white Pikmin triggers my counter in this MU. Doesn't seem to be a glitch, perhaps they fixed the glitch and decided this was better?

All physical attacks otherwise that you'd expect to trigger it do so as normal.

Why would be Corrin tentatively disadvantageous matchup with this IMPORTANT change? I mean:

About the recent news I got about our pikmins do not activate Corrin's counter except for white pikmin, I would say the MU turns out in our favor heavily.

We don't need to approach so you can spam side b. Her walk speed was nerfed and she has almost the same running speed as us.
So if you spam pikmin and she start to spam B, either the pikmin will get the shot or you can approach by walking and shielding the projectile in order to catch a grab or throw a Fsmash, because there is a small but not difficult window of time when the next move will be active.

If Corrin doesn't use neutral B, she will approach by jumping or running, trying to land a tipper side B or an Aerial. If you space that properly, you wouldn't be touched by any aerial except for the tipper Side B.
If she decides to Side B, you can react to that due to the ending lag if you play defensively.
If she decides to land an Aerial, you can space that move and keep throwing pikmin.

Corrin's side B have more distance than our Fsmash, ok, but to be really hurtful it must be tippered and due our size, it would need a medium jump, right?

Running to a Corrin may be tricky, because if you shield, she can react or she may spot dodge waiting for our grab. If you are patience enough, you can bait that spotdodge and then do the grab, which is very safe against her possible reaction with Fsmash or Side B.

The MU turns into her favor when we are in the air, that's very obvious against any character though. And her Fsmash outrange ours so that's a very dangerous move to compite, don't do it, don't try to trade against her Fsmash.

Even though she can edge guard us very easily, her Dthrow doesn't kill as easily as before, so grabbing for Corrin should be a late game thing due the lack of true grab combo she has.

I would at least categorize it as a slightly disadvantageous or maybe even.

What you all think?

Actually I have no experience against mii fighters

 

[Skitrel]

Why would be Corrin tentatively disadvantageous matchup with this IMPORTANT change? I mean:

About the recent news I got about our pikmins do not activate Corrin's counter except for white pikmin, I would say the MU turns out in our favor heavily.

We don't need to approach so you can spam side b. Her walk speed was nerfed and she has almost the same running speed as us.
So if you spam pikmin and she start to spam B, either the pikmin will get the shot or you can approach by walking and shielding the projectile in order to catch a grab or throw a Fsmash, because there is a small but not difficult window of time when the next move will be active.

If Corrin doesn't use neutral B, she will approach by jumping or running, trying to land a tipper side B or an Aerial. If you space that properly, you wouldn't be touched by any aerial except for the tipper Side B.
If she decides to Side B, you can react to that due to the ending lag if you play defensively.
If she decides to land an Aerial, you can space that move and keep throwing pikmin.

Corrin's side B have more distance than our Fsmash, ok, but to be really hurtful it must be tippered and due our size, it would need a medium jump, right?

Running to a Corrin may be tricky, because if you shield, she can react or she may spot dodge waiting for our grab. If you are patience enough, you can bait that spotdodge and then do the grab, which is very safe against her possible reaction with Fsmash or Side B.

The MU turns into her favor when we are in the air, that's very obvious against any character though. And her Fsmash outrange ours so that's a very dangerous move to compite, don't do it, don't try to trade against her Fsmash.

Even though she can edge guard us very easily, her Dthrow doesn't kill as easily as before, so grabbing for Corrin should be a late game thing due the lack of true grab combo she has.

I would at least categorize it as a slightly disadvantageous or maybe even.

What you all think?

Actually I have no experience against mii fighters

My experience in the MU is that if you don't approach I just stand their and throw ftilts which munches straight through Pikmin like they're nothing before they ever collide with me, stuffs out grabs, neutralises physicals and in general causes hell for the poor Olimar.

If the Olimar relies on throwing Pikmin too much he finds himself in a no surviving Pikmin scenario far too often. He gets pushed out to the edge of the stage by a Corrin that slowly advances on him while safely using tilt to stuff Pikmin throws. If he then attempts to throw the Corrin will provide punish pressure with fsmash.

In my experience any character that gives Corrin centre stage loses the matchup. I haven't met an Olimar yet that doesn't retreat to the stage edge. I'll take some damage while I'm herding the Olimar and taking stage control away from him, but I only need 40% to put him at kill percent for a tipper fsmash by the stage edge like that. It's really not a place you want to be.

If the Corrin doesn't make liberal use of ftilt and tipper fsmash? You've definitely got this MU. It comes down to the Corrin knowing her options though in my opinion. We could be at a disagreement. But outside of your grab I really don't feel any pressure or disadvantage. I actually throw a lot of respect out the window in the MU because so much of Corrin's moveset simply has an option that can reactively counter the Olimar's choices.

Part of the issue with rating the matchup could also be down to MU experience. I may be missing options Olimar has that have not yet been used against me, I'm sure the meta will progress with Corrins and Olimars finding new coping strategies for these methods.

 

[koken]

My experience in the MU is that if you don't approach I just stand their and throw ftilts which munches straight through Pikmin like they're nothing before they ever collide with me, stuffs out grabs, neutralises physicals and in general causes hell for the poor Olimar.

If the Olimar relies on throwing Pikmin too much he finds himself in a no surviving Pikmin scenario far too often. He gets pushed out to the edge of the stage by a Corrin that slowly advances on him while safely using tilt to stuff Pikmin throws. If he then attempts to throw the Corrin will provide punish pressure with fsmash.

In my experience any character that gives Corrin centre stage loses the matchup. I haven't met an Olimar yet that doesn't retreat to the stage edge. I'll take some damage while I'm herding the Olimar and taking stage control away from him, but I only need 40% to put him at kill percent for a tipper fsmash by the stage edge like that. It's really not a place you want to be.

If the Corrin doesn't make liberal use of ftilt and tipper fsmash? You've definitely got this MU. It comes down to the Corrin knowing her options though in my opinion. We could be at a disagreement. But outside of your grab I really don't feel any pressure or disadvantage. I actually throw a lot of respect out the window in the MU because so much of Corrin's moveset simply has an option that can reactively counter the Olimar's choices.

Part of the issue with rating the matchup could also be down to MU experience. I may be missing options Olimar has that have not yet been used against me, I'm sure the meta will progress with Corrins and Olimars finding new coping strategies for these methods.

Seems like a very solid argument what you wrote down there, I agree with the most part of it.

When we have no pikmin we aren't a real threat, it's true, and we may also be very defenseless. But I didn't meant to say we would throw all of our pikmin and wait for Corrin to kill them all. Considering that, if the Olimar player doesn't punish any careless approach of Corrin, I will agree to say you have the center of the stage, stage control, and probably game, no doubt of that.

But we have some tricks for approach too and the pluck + Fsmash is almost instantaneous (Forgive me if I'm wrong but I do believe those are 8-11 frames). Also don't forget the purples pikmin, we can put some pressure with those too on Corrin's approaches.

Even though, you give me solid arguments and maybe I need to face a good Corrin player also.

 

[Blue Banana]

Speaking from Medium/1111 experience.
Gunner vs Olimar can be very annoying for Gunner, because Pikmin can take the hit from the key projectile Gunner shoots out, being Charged Shot. Basically all Olimar usually has to do to contest Gunner's attempts to get damage on him from range is to toss out a Pikmin to eat the hit.

Without being able to have the easy to toss out moves like Grenade (N3) or Missile (S3) I can see this matchup being very annoying at range. Unfortunately I don't really know what Olimar players usually do during matches, I mean I'd guess a lot of it is getting chip through Pikmin toss.

In that case Reds are especially difficult to get rid of because Gunner is the fighter with the most fire based attacks out of every character in Smash history (Not even counting the other specials).

It would be nice to have a player face off to better understand how to go about playing against one another. But as far as I can tell it seems like it might be somewhat of an uphill battle for Gunner.

I only fought a medium/1111 once on Anther's, but I do remember having a lot of trouble with dealing with F-air. It is hard to constantly shield against the projectiles to prevent too much chip, stuffs Pikmin Throw, and grants Gunner a lot of movement because of the pushback effect and the momentum sliding on the ground. Although I was able to rack up damage much quicker through Pikmin Throw than my opponent did with F-air/CS, I had a lot of trouble with approaching or forcing an approach from Gunner to go for the KO, which brings up the danger of Olimar getting KO'd at early percents due to rage. I was only able to secure KO's when Gunner committed to a smash attack.

I also noticed that I was able to avoid getting by the 2nd hit of Dsmash even if he got hit by the 1st hit. Not sure if it's a flaw in the attack itself or it's just Olimar having an easier time getting out of certain attacks easier than most characters.

No rating because that's all the experience I have in this MU, just talking about what I saw and thought.

Why would be Corrin tentatively disadvantageous matchup with this IMPORTANT change?

Corrin is rated as such because at the time there was only one post that gave a clear enough picture of the user's experiences with the MU. There wasn't another post that had the same or greater amount of detail going over the MU, so that's why the rating was tentative. Bayonetta's rating was less tentative because -The Gucci Fairy- talks about this MU a lot in the Olimar Skype chat, so I know enough of his experiences that I can use his rating along with the others in the thread to think of a definite overall one.

 

[koken]

Corrin is rated as such because at the time there was only one post that gave a clear enough picture of the user's experiences with the MU. There wasn't another post that had the same or greater amount of detail going over the MU, so that's why the rating was tentative. Bayonetta's rating was less tentative because -The Gucci Fairy- talks about this MU a lot in the Olimar Skype chat, so I know enough of his experiences that I can use his rating along with the others in the thread to think of a definite overall one.

Thank you for that, I didn't knew you were considering the skype chat too.

 

[AEMehr]

I only fought a medium/1111 once on Anther's, but I do remember having a lot of trouble with dealing with F-air. It is hard to constantly shield against the projectiles to prevent too much chip, stuffs Pikmin Throw, and grants Gunner a lot of movement because of the pushback effect and the momentum sliding on the ground. Although I was able to rack up damage much quicker through Pikmin Throw than my opponent did with F-air/CS, I had a lot of trouble with approaching or forcing an approach from Gunner to go for the KO, which brings up the danger of Olimar getting KO'd at early percents due to rage. I was only able to secure KO's when Gunner committed to a smash attack.

Makes sense. The match would most likely be decided by who dares to approach first haha.

I also noticed that I was able to avoid getting by the 2nd hit of Dsmash even if he got hit by the 1st hit. Not sure if it's a flaw in the attack itself or it's just Olimar having an easier time getting out of certain attacks easier than most characters.

It's because he's a light fighter, Rosalina and Bayonetta can fall out of it too.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Speaking from Medium/1111 experience.
Gunner vs Olimar can be very annoying for Gunner, because Pikmin can take the hit from the key projectile Gunner shoots out, being Charged Shot. Basically all Olimar usually has to do to contest Gunner's attempts to get damage on him from range is to toss out a Pikmin to eat the hit.

Without being able to have the easy to toss out moves like Grenade (N3) or Missile (S3) I can see this matchup being very annoying at range. Unfortunately I don't really know what Olimar players usually do during matches, I mean I'd guess a lot of it is getting chip through Pikmin toss.

In that case Reds are especially difficult to get rid of because Gunner is the fighter with the most fire based attacks out of every character in Smash history (Not even counting the other specials).

It would be nice to have a player face off to better understand how to go about playing against one another. But as far as I can tell it seems like it might be somewhat of an uphill battle for Gunner.

From my experience in this matchup, it isn't that bad. It is a matchup that forces Gunner to play with more aggression than usual, but Olimar's light weight, slow airspeed, and slow fall speed allows Gunner to get a lot of damage from juggling. In addition, Gunner can edgeguard Olimar well with flame pillar, charge blast, up smash, and fsmash. Gunner also doesn't really have any killing issues in this matchup since up tilt and down tilt kill around 120 without rage.

I have also found that Gunner's jab is pretty useful in this matchup, since it can block Pikmin and set Gunner up for kill moves. While it is somewhat annoying that Olimar can escape our jab combo after two hits, the knockback taken by Olimar allows Gunner to follow up with down smash or a down tilt pretty easily.

Dash attack is also somewhat useful since it can get rid of Pikmin easily, and it has great priority for juggling Olimar. While it is pretty laggy, it can give Gunner some good follow ups when used properly. It is also really good to use it after using fair in order to get a good string.

While Olimar racks up damage very quickly against Gunner, Gunner lives longer due to his/her weight (the fact that Gunner can reflect Olimar's smash attacks also helps). Although gunner has a lot of fire moves, some of them are able to get fire Pikmin off of Gunner (dash attack and up smash are good examples off this).

Blue Banana , The first hit of down smash sometimes hits the opponent in a way that it doesn't combo into the second hit. It depends on what part of the first hitbox makes contact, but weight can also be a factor.

While this matchup seems pretty bad, it is definitely not worse than 40-60 for Gunner since Gunner can juggle Olimar pretty hard. Gunner has more priority and range than Olimar, and this allows Gunner to have good success at close range. I think that the matchup is anywhere from 40-60 to 50-50, but I would want to play the matchup more in order to get a conclusive ratio.

 

[Blue Banana]

Discussion for the Mii MUs is now closed. Thanks for the responses.

is a slightly advantageous matchup assuming 1111/medium size.

Unfortunately, there weren't any responses for and , but this is expected considering how rare these matchups are.

is now a disadvantageous/slightly disadvantageous matchup.

------------------------

With this discussion closed, the first edition of the Piklopedia is now completed!

Difficulty|Characters
Heavy Disadvantage | none, but Sheik might as well be put on this side /
Disadvantage | / (? / ?)
Slight Disadvantage | / (??)
Even | ( ) / (??)
Slight Advantage | (??)
Advantage | (??)
Heavy Advantage |
???|

Characters that are split between two ratings are separated from other characters with the same rating (for example, Corrin is split apart from Mario, Yoshi, and Wario because they have a disadvantage/slight disadvantage rating). Characters with tentative ratings are put into a separate sub-group (? between the parentheses and question marks ?).


There are still some characters that may need more assessment to get better view on their matchups (i.e. characters
with little or no posts like Discussions 5 and 19, characters with somewhat outdated information like Pikachu, Mario Bros., characters with buffs/nerfs from patches like Meta Knight, (Zero Suit) Samus, Charizard, etc.), but for the most part this is a good start for compiling all the MU info for Olimar.

I'll continue these discussions at a later point in time, but for now you're free to discuss any MU. Look through the archived discussions on the OP first before you ask any questions because you might find your answers there.

 

[Ikenna]

Olimar (Alph) and Mii Swordfighter player here. Only played this game last year, so it's up to someone else to be accurate. Apologies for completely opinionated, sloppy writeup.

Medium, 1111 - Alright, so this is the most tournament "legal" set. Average mobility, average framedata for characters with disjointed hitboxes. Ultimately an advantageous matchup for Olimar/Alph in my unprofessional 2015 opinion. Right next to . I don't think I need to talk about the pretty standard attacks Swordfighter has. Olimar just has to stay out of range and punish thrown out attacks with combos/strings. Respect Stone Scabbard (Up-B) if you're trying to meteor smash Swordfighter since it has invincibility frames for the startup and the move can meteor smash on the way down. Olimar players would be wise to mix up their recovery movements when sent offstage.Gale Strike (Neutral-B) is a projectile that has a tendency of destroying certain projectiles in its path while pushing on. I don't know what happens if Olimar throws Pikmin at it. If Olimar gets caught in the attack, he will be damaged and lifted and Swordfighter may be able to follow up with up-air if possible. Speaking of up-air, it is a strong move outside of smash attacks and Swordfighters love to juggle anyone above them. D-throw can combo into that move at low percents while at higher percents, it turns into a read-dependent string. As usual with any other slow-ish characters with very limited approach options, Olimar can do a lot of what he wants.

Swordfighter's most optimal size is Shortest/Thinnest size and most optimal set of specials 2332/1332 according to the only guide on it. Better framedata, better mobility. Less range, but smaller hurtbox. Less roll distance, but faster rolls. Projectiles to answer with, reflector like Mario's Cape to punish irresponsible use of Olimar's smash attacks, better recovery moves that can be challenged more safely than Stone Scabbard. I want to say that this set is almost, if not, as even as vs , but I haven't been playing the game lately. Medium size, slighly advantageous for Olimar. Use the guide's table of contents to find what you want to learn about Swordfighter. Might comment more on the matchup later.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

I'm sorry if this isn't the place to say this. I just want to say I don't think Olimar is even close to being disadvantaged against Wario.

Jeepysol, who's good in my opinion, lost to Soulimar.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNxEGNPa3oo&nohtml5=False

Anuar, also good, has lost to Angbad twice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSkxOwm253U&nohtml5=False
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSkxOwm253U&nohtml5=False

Lord Frieza, good, vs. Myran (another loss)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EgPUkWqnPc&nohtml5=False

Abadango barely beat Dabuz in one game with Wario's Max Waft and lost neutral consistently, and I'd go as far as to say entirely. Dabuz missed the final tech, and could have survived. He was barely able to approach with speeding bike. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1j7QDPQiWys&nohtml5=False

I just read this thread's entire conversation on Wario, and you all just said things that hold very little merit when it comes to the actual match-up, things that many other characters complain about and bad Wario players boast about. Yes, bite and bike are annoying. Yes, Wario has good air-speed, glad you noticed one attribute of his. he's also hard countered in neutral when you know how to roll smartly/pivot grab. Yes, Wario's Waft and F-smash are strong, but many other characters get KO'd early by them as well, it doesn't make the match-up bad in any way. Most of what I saw is just naming the strengths Wario has, while being unsure about his weaknesses in the match-up. Wario cannot land next to Olimar safely. Every time Wario tries to n-air, d-air, or chomp Olimar, he is extremely likely to getting pivot grabbed (not just by Olimar, many characters in the game, DK and Bowser are two other examples). Falling u-air is nearly impossible to land on Olimar (try it in training mode, you'll fail 90% of the time), and MANY of his ground animations duck under Wario's short hop n-air. Pivot grabs+Rolls destroy Wario. Wario's only option is to fade away every attack (which just results in having to deal with pikmin toss all over) or hard read a roll which can only be done with high-commitment attacks (dash attack is the laggiest dash on shield in the game, possibly worse than Dedede, and can be punished with a smash, and the Wario Bike isn't a good roll punish lol). If you think Wario's bite or bike have any merit at all in making this MU bad for Olimar, you should learn what it means to deal with another character. Wario can be grabbed off the bike by tethers. Also, eating Pikmin literally has no bearing on this match-up. Wario has to approach Olimar, and that makes this MU harder for Wario than you might all think. Results speak loudly, and if anything the MU currently is in Oli's favor. Soulimar himself said he didn't think the MU seemed too bad on this thread, so I don't know why it says it's bad here or how this conclusion was made. Also, now you all know pivot grabs beat Wario's bike and aerial approaches, so have fun.

 

[Blue Banana]

Wario can be grabbed off the bike by tethers.

Won't Olimar be hit by the bike? I remember grabbing Wario off of it would result in Olimar getting interrupted by the bike because it still has a hitbox.

Soulimar himself said he didn't think the MU seemed too bad on this thread, so I don't know why it says it's bad here or how this conclusion was made.

The quote said that he only played Wario once, and the post was a few months old by the time I set up the discussion for Wario. Even though he was fairly detailed on his thoughts on the matchup at the time, I wasn't sure if that was enough MU experience to get a solid rating. That is why I only relied on the other post talking about Wario back then for the rating.

Looking back at it, I think I probably should factored his post in my overall rating more because it was the only other post at the time that was talking about the matchup.

 

[Myran]

I know I'm super late on any relevent MU discussion, but I'll still give my 2 cents. Hopefully I'll stop being lazy and give some more in depth info on all these MUs. Wario is an even MU to me, he can be hard to catch on the right stage. Waft is a great equalizing tool, and he can kill with random bairs or other stray hits every now and then. I say even, because Olimar will probably win neutral in most cases and wrack up damage pretty fast. Landing kills can be annoying at times, but not to bad for the most part. We can stop bike a plethora of ways from jump side-b, fsmashing, or doing one of his numerous aerials. He's also combo food, and can be ledge guarded pretty well with a properly timed dsmash. I could actually budge and say slightly Olimar's favor, but Wario being able to turn the tide at any moment won't let me take it farther than that.

 

[Sky Pirate]

I just read this thread's entire conversation on Wario, and you all just said things that hold very little merit when it comes to the actual match-up, things that many other characters complain about and bad Wario players boast about. Yes, bite and bike are annoying. Yes, Wario has good air-speed, glad you noticed one attribute of his. he's also hard countered in neutral when you know how to roll smartly/pivot grab. Yes, Wario's Waft and F-smash are strong, but many other characters get KO'd early by them as well, it doesn't make the match-up bad in any way. Most of what I saw is just naming the strengths Wario has, while being unsure about his weaknesses in the match-up. Wario cannot land next to Olimar safely. Every time Wario tries to n-air, d-air, or chomp Olimar, he is extremely likely to getting pivot grabbed (not just by Olimar, many characters in the game, DK and Bowser are two other examples). Falling u-air is nearly impossible to land on Olimar (try it in training mode, you'll fail 90% of the time), and MANY of his ground animations duck under Wario's short hop n-air. Pivot grabs+Rolls destroy Wario. Wario's only option is to fade away every attack (which just results in having to deal with pikmin toss all over) or hard read a roll which can only be done with high-commitment attacks (dash attack is the laggiest dash on shield in the game, possibly worse than Dedede, and can be punished with a smash, and the Wario Bike isn't a good roll punish lol). If you think Wario's bite or bike have any merit at all in making this MU bad for Olimar, you should learn what it means to deal with another character. Wario can be grabbed off the bike by tethers. Also, eating Pikmin literally has no bearing on this match-up. Wario has to approach Olimar, and that makes this MU harder for Wario than you might all think. Results speak loudly, and if anything the MU currently is in Oli's favor. Soulimar himself said he didn't think the MU seemed too bad on this thread, so I don't know why it says it's bad here or how this conclusion was made. Also, now you all know pivot grabs beat Wario's bike and aerial approaches, so have fun.

Christ, you sound arrogant.

First of all, you know that "other characters struggle with it, so that doesn't make it a bad matchup" isn't a valid argument, yes? Using that logic, nobody had a bad matchup with pre-patch Sheik.

Second, apparently you didn't actually read the whole discussion because I said to pivot grab Wario's aerials at the very beginning of my post.

Third, I'd disagree that Wario eating pikmin has absolutely no bearing on the matchup. I was caught off-guard by it when I first played the matchup, so I didn't want others to have the same problem. Awareness of another character's options is never a bad thing, correct?

And I never said that it was horribly disadvantaged for Olimar, nor do I believe that. IMO, it's an even matchup. I thought there was no reason to say that, but apparently I was wrong.

Next time you want to post something like this, please read carefully and think about your biases and phrasing. You really made it sound as though you think that we're all idiots.